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Border Panic

From time to time our more conservative visitors ask us why we don’t cover the “fact” that America is facing a flood of illegal immigrants, or why we don’t cover the “fact” of an explosion in violence by illegal immigrants on America’s borders.

The reason we don’t cover these “facts” is that we cannot find any indication that they are actually, really, facts at all.

Just look at these two statistics, using the most recently available information from the Department of Homeland Security’s Immigration Yearbook and the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reports:

number of deportable aliens located, 1977-2003
violent crimes in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and California, 1999-2003

While conservatives are complaining that the number of new Border Patrol isn’t high enough for their tastes, there are more border patrol agents, and there is more funding for them, than in the past. Yet with more agents looking, and looking harder, to find illegal immigrants, fewer have been found in the U.S. in recent years. And there is no crime wave sweeping the border states (by the way, although state-by-state information is not yet available, preliminary data for 2004 show a decrease in violent crimes in the West, compared to 2003).

As a member of the reality-based community, I am always ready to change my mind when confronted with a new set of documented facts (please note, unsupported allegations do not count). That said, it doesn’t look to me as though the border region is suffering from any kind of new crime wave, or illegal immigration wave, or anything like that. In fact, the statistics seem to indicate that the situation is actually improving.

To my eye, this looks like a classic scare.

39 thoughts on “Border Panic”

  1. IO ERROR says:

    Your data paint a nice picture of what happened up to 2003. They say nothing of what’s going on right now, which could be construed as misleading.

    Documented fact: The governors of Arizona and New Mexico have both declared states of emergency in border counties hardest hit by illegal immigration and related crime in the past months.

    Documented fact: The Department of Homeland Security has directed its border enforcement efforts at specific locations on the border, driving the illegal immigrants to cross at other locations.

    Documented fact: The states of emergency were declared in direct response to these enforcement efforts and the quite foreseeable results.

    The border region certainly wasn’t suffering from any kind of new crime wave, or illegal immigration wave, or anything like that, by the end of 2003, where your statistics end. Today, however, isn’t covered in your statistics.

  2. Mark says:

    On the second figure, are the years correctly identified? If so, then there has been a DECREASE in crime (especially in NM) over the time period. Whether it’s statistically significant is another question.

  3. Theo Lock says:

    Yes, the years are correctly identified, and there has been a DECREASE. I couldn’t figure out how to get Excel to label the years in ascending order for that figure (anyone else out there with Excel frustrations?) Statistical significance is, as you say, another matter, but by any shake, the trend of the data is not compatible with the assertion that there’s been an upsurge in crime or illegal immigration in recent years.

  4. Frankie Goes to Hollywood says:

    Damn those facts. They keep on interfering with the Republican agenda to get everybody all scared about foreigners. Facts are kind of like those “pesky kids” in Scooby Doo – which makes the Republican scaremonsters the ghouls.

    Looks to me that the only epidemic related to illegal immigrants is the epidemic of hate by Republicans.

  5. Theo Lock says:

    Today can’t be covered by my statistics, because today’s circumstances aren’t reported in government statistics. I report the most recently available data.

    If you have more recently available statistical data, report them. What you have reported isn’t statistical data. You’ve reported one supposition based on two political decisions. Of course the politicians at the federal and state level are hyperventilating that there’s a problem. I don’t see any data to support their hyperventilation.

  6. KH says:

    If I had to guess I would say that these people who are asking you to report on these “facts” are getting their “facts” from movie sterotypes and the nightly news. They are mistaking opinions for facts. It just goes to show you that people will believe anything they see on TV. The news may be reporting more violence but that doesn’t mean that more is happening. It’s just another way for the media to put us in a state of panic so that we will believe anything that comes out of Bush’s mouth about the “war on terror”.

  7. Hoosier Texan says:

    1. Time Magazine, September 12, 2004, “Who Left The Door Open?” documented 4,000 illegal aliens crossing nightly and over three million intruders will cross in 2004.
    2. Last month, the Pew Hispanic Center, a private research group, reported that there were an estimated 10.3 million illegal immigrants living in the United States last year, an increase of about 23 percent from in 2000.
    3. Before California’s current in-state tuition law was passed, a previous one was vetoed by the state’s governor on the basis that it would impose an unmanageable financial burden on the state’s higher education system. “Based on Fall 1998 enrollment figures at the [U. of Cal. and Cal. State U.] alone, this legislation could result in a revenue loss of over $63.7 million to the state,” according to the governor in 2000.
    1Governor’s Veto Message to the Assembly on AB 1197, September 29, 2000.
    4. Each year, thousands of women enter the United States illegally to give birth, knowing that their child will thus have U.S. citizenship. Their children immediately qualify for a slew of federal, state, and local benefit programs. In addition, when the children turn 21, they can sponsor the immigration of other relatives, becoming “anchor babies” for an entire clan.
    5. The United States is unusual in its offer of citizenship to anyone born on its soil. Only a few European countries still grant automatic citizenship at birth. The United Kingdom and Australia repealed their U.S.-style policies in the 1980s after witnessing abuses similar to those plaguing the U.S. today.1
    6. In less than 50 years, the U.S. Census Bureau projects that immigration will cause the population of the United States to increase from its present 288 million to more than 400 million.
    7. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest un-funded federal mandates.
    8. In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.
    9. In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.
    10. Few Americans realize that 29 percent of criminals filling jails across this country are illegal and legal immigrants. They cost US taxpayers $1.6 billion annually.
    11. Arizona is the temporary home of 500,000 illegal aliens. They cost Arizona taxpayers over $1 billion annually in services for schools, medical care, welfare anchor babies, loss of tax base and prisons.
    12. Illegal aliens displaced American workers at a cost in excess of $133 billion dollars last year according to Harvard Professor George Borjas. College and high school kids cannot find a summer job in yard care, landscape, fast food or service jobs.
    13. When an alien criminal gets caught for rape, murder or drug distribution, you pay $1.6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe those filling 30 percent of our federal and state prisons
    14. The average head of household illegal alien costs you $2,700.00 in welfare money over and above any taxes he or she pays in their meager paying jobs. With 15 to 20 million illegal aliens in the USA, that figures exceeds $20 billion of your tax dollars. (Source: Center for Immigration Studies, August 2004)
    15. A new report by the U.S. Census Bureau that puts the number of “unauthorized and quasi-legal” immigrants in the United States at about 8.7 million – double the previous decade’s number
    16. Some 115,000 illegal aliens come from the Middle East, the census study said.
    17. The cost to U.S. taxpayers of making a single arrest along the U.S.-Mexican border increased from $300 in 1992 to $1,700 in 2002 – an increase of 467 percent in just one decade.
    18. The violence in Nuevo Laredo, across from Laredo, Texas, has left 87 people dead since the beginning of the year. It also prompted the U.S. State Department to issue a travel advisory alerting citizens to recent drug-trafficking and kidnappings on the Mexican side of the border.

  8. HareTrinity says:

    Yeah, the media feeds us rubbish like that here, too. Also reports more crimes committed by immigrants than it does those committed by people who’ve lived here for many years.

    Sad fact that people still think it’s a better story if it might support racism.

  9. Theo Lock says:

    Hoosier Texan,

    For once, you seem to have done some actual homework. “Seem” is the relevant word here. The post was not actually written by you, after all. You’ve plagiarized The Center for Immigration Studies, Frosty Wooldridge, Olga Rodriguez, Heather MacDonald, and CNS News Service and NewsMax, among others. Cite your sources, please, especially when you quote directly rather than writing something yourself. Your arguments do not gain force when you pretend to have written words actually written by others.

    You seem to have the notion that the greater the number of separate items you can enter, the more right you must be. This must be why item #8 and item #9 are the same item. Quality, however, is much more important than quantity.

    Let’s look at the quality of what you’ve cut-and-pasted (written is too kind a word).

    Hoosier Texan, you let your nationalistic xenophobia show in items #4 and #5. A child born on American soil is a citizen. An American is someone who is born here, not someone who can claim American lineage. You cite those European countries which grant citizenship based on blood. We have written about this issue as well. Allow me to quote (a quotation with attribution; try it some time) Jim who wrote:

    “Republican Nathan Deal, along with 26 others (not a single Democrat in that bunch, mind you), has thrown his support behind H.R. 698, which would deny citizenship to American-born babies if their parents aren’t themselves citizens. Such a change would move us toward the German model of citizenship, in which families who have lived in Germany for generations were denied citizenship because they lacked the “virtue” of a German bloodline.

    Even more bizarrely under this bill, if a baby is born in America of a father who is a citizen and a mother who is not, the baby is denied American citizenship if the father and mother aren’t married. That’s right — the Republicans even want to deny babies citizenship when the father is himself a citizen.

    This particular lunacy isn’t, mind you, a fleeting Republican effort. Bills almost identical to this one have been pushed by the GOP for years in the Congress. Fortunately, Democrats and independents have stood in their way – so far. But now the Congress is stocked — not just with more Republicans, but with more Republicans so openly xenophobic and nationalistic that they feel comfortable supporting this bill in public.

    Republican Moral Values? Count the denial of citizenship to American babies among them. “

    You are standing with those who wish to socially engineer the concept of an American Race, defined by blood lineage rather than place of birth. We know where that path leads — to the revocation of das Heimatrecht by virtue of blood rather than birthplace. Shame on you.


    Some of your claims are simply, to be frank, stupid, if their goal is to address the question of trends of illegal immigration in the United States:

    #18: The violence is in Mexico. Mexico. That’s not in the United States. Mexico. Mexico. Across the border, or as you’d say, boarder. Mexico. Mexico.

    #17: The author who cited the cost to U.S. taxpayers of making a single arrest along the border, Doug Massey, concluded that increased border enforcement — the measure YOU PROPOSE — is actually to blame for the increased cost and has done the opposite of what it was intended to do. Did you actually read this report before you plagiarized it?

    #13: “When an alien criminal goes to prison, you pay $1.6 billion in prison costs.” If that is true, then when a citizen goes to prison, you pay $1.6 billion in prison costs. Obviously, we can’t have these citizens galavanting around our nation! This cost clearly does not regard a single “alien.” What is the ultimate source of this statistic, beyond the plagiarized quote? Are these legal immigrants and illegal immigrants lumped together? If so, the statistic is irrelevant to the conversation, which regards illegal immigrants. And what is the cost of incarcerating legal immigrants and citizens in the United States? How many $billion are we spending there? Does it eclipse the former value?

    The vast majority of your points have nothing whatsoever to do with the empirical assertion that there is a wave of immigration hitting the United States and causing a rise in violent crime. Items #3, #4, #5, #7, #11, #12, #13, #14, #16, #17, and #18 have nothing whatsoever to do with these empirical claims.

    #8 and #9 are direct quotes plagiarized from Heather MacDonald, (a fellow of the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, a conservative publicity outfit) without attribution. Do you have the original data source for these claims so we can check them? If you do not, what are you doing posting this single claim as two claims?

    After discounting #3, #4, #5, #7, #8, #9, #11, #12, #13, #14, #16, #17, and #18, that leaves us with the following empirical claims that are actually relevant and not stupid:

    #1, #2, #6, #10, #15

    Five claims.

    #1: “Time Magazine, September 12, 2004, “Who Left The Door Open?” documented 4,000 illegal aliens crossing nightly and over three million intruders will cross in 2004.”

    Judgment: That’s a projection, not an empirical measurement. As a member of the reality-based community, I’ll wait to see what actually happened in 2004, suspending judgment until then.

    #2: “Last month, the Pew Hispanic Center, a private research group, reported that there were an estimated 10.3 million illegal immigrants living in the United States last year, an increase of about 23 percent from in 2000.”

    Judgment: Legitimate source, checked out personally, leading me to wonder what leads to the conflict in statistics. Pew uses a different measurement strategy than the Homeland Security Yearbook.

    #6: “In less than 50 years, the U.S. Census Bureau projects that immigration will cause the population of the United States to increase from its present 288 million to more than 400 million.”

    Judgment: Suspect source. This is a plagiarized quote from the Center for Immigration Studies, a spinoff from the clearly anti-immigrant FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform). The CIS has a cookie to push. Therefore, it is important to look at the original census projections. The Census Bureau itself cites the 400 million figure as one of multiple possibilities, and one that is fired not only by the increase in the number of illegal immigrants, but also by a proportional increase in the Black American population, in the Asian-American population, and the American-born Hispanic population (which, unless you’re a racist, is not a problem). The 400 million figure is only one of three Census Bureau scenarios, one of which indicates an actual U.S. population decrease.

    #10: “Few Americans realize that 29 percent of criminals filling jails across this country are illegal and legal immigrants. They cost US taxpayers $1.6 billion annually.”

    Judgment: This claim is plagiarized from Frosty Wooldridge. Frosty Wooldridge does not provide the original source for the data. What is it, Hoosier Texan? Either you know, in which case you can tell us, or you don’t know, in which case you are a credulous consumer of other peoples’ spin. In either case, the statistic is only partially relevant. Look at the slippage: “illegal and legal immigrants.” The question here regards illegal immigrants. What is the dollar amount when legal immigrant prisoners, which are irrelevant to the discussion, are excluded? And how does this compare to the cost of incarcerating legal immigrants? To the cost of incarcerating citizens? Only when we know this can we reckon the significance of this statistic.

    #15: “A new report by the U.S. Census Bureau that puts the number of ‘unauthorized and quasi-legal’ immigrants in the United States at about 8.7 million – double the previous decade’s number”

    Judgment: Marginally Relevant. This claim, plagiarized from CNS without attribution, references this census report which includes in its tabulations “people in ‘quasi-legal’ status who are awaiting action on their legal migration requests.” Does Hoosier Texan have a problem with legal migration requests? If so, then Hoosier Texan has a xenophobia problem, not an illegal immigration problem. If not, then clearly this statistic is muddled and so only partially relevant to the question of the number of illegal immigrants.

    Summary: Only one point, #2, is relevant to the question, appropriately sourced and pointing to a possible alternative conclusion. This point is worth further investigation. The rest is either ka-ka (a technical term, sourced from the original “kaa-kaa,” a term meaning “for shit”) or unverifiable pending Hoosier Texan’s correct citation efforts.

  10. Hoosier Texan says:

    Yes Theo, I copy and pasted info I searched for and sorry for pasting some point twice. Unlike you, I haven’t a great amount of time on my hands with a one and two year old to raise…although it took the better part of an hour and a half to look things up.

    Theo, I just do not think it’s right for a Mexican woman to pop over the border just to have a baby here so as to abuse the law and cost us money period. That is th point I was trying to make and I think most Americans woud agree. So don’t put words in my mouth about social engineering based on blood lineage. That has NOTHING to do with it and is a tatic you like to use to try and show me as a racist.

    Wrong the violence is spilling into the US. You obviously pay NO attention to it. Fact: Mexican militia have started a gang and run drugs. They are in Dallas now and are killing. Fact: illegals are shooting and killing sheriffs in US border towns.

    Nice illogical point. It cost us 1.6 billion for legal inmates, so what is wrong in paying 1.6 billion for illegals. Pointing out the obvious, if they were not here, it would not cost us the 1.6 billion. Are you that desparate to spin the issue?

    Spinning, you spin the entire point during your article. You don’t like sources that are institues with conservative leanings? Does that mean they dummy their numbers? Is it then safe to say liberal groups do the same thing? Go spend a few weeks on the border Theo and then we will talk.

    Points 6-9 & 11-14 are very relevant. You either like to talk like the nerds I went to college with and are close to that age, or you have failed to tak your college experience and apply it to real world experience…otherwise known as living in another world isolated from everyday problems.

  11. Theo says:

    No, I do live in the “real world.” I have two jobs. I also have children. I have lived in southern Arizona. I have taught school 50 yards from the Mexican border.

    So first, let’s stop the ad hominem attacks on me. Look the phrase up if you don’t know what I’m talking about.

    Second, please supply the direct sources that I requested for your claims, or retract them.

    Third, get your 1.6 billion statistic right. You’re contradicting yourself.

  12. Hoosier Texan says:

    You looked up all of my stats. You USED to liver there. You do not any more and have no idea about the problems now. I am not a conservative either and respect what Bill Richardson is doing in NM.

    Also, do you like to try and show everyone how smart you are by correcting them and feeling you must explain things to people you think are of lesser intelligence? I have a consevative friend like that who makes an ass of himself doing it daily.

  13. Theo says:

    Hoosier Texan,

    No, I didn’t “look up all your stats.” Some of your stats seem to be without any sort of corroborating source beyond conservative-funded echo chamber outfits. Show me the source data. I’m sure you must know where it is, because surely you wouldn’t just repeat sound bites from the conservative echo chamber, right? You speak of me spinning, but you’re projecting: spin is unsubstantiated echo-chamber-repeating claims. If you want to avoid the spin, show me the source data.

    I simply ask that when someone (in this case, YOU) asks me to get hysterical about something, they provide me actual, sourced facts to back up their request for me to get hysterical. Otherwise, I’m just not going to drink the Kool-Aid.

    Again you project your own insecurities: you’re the one who is insulting my intelligence by thinking I’ll swallow undocumented claims, irrelevant information and racist ideology.

    If you want to convince me, you’re going to have to do better than that. Either you will or you won’t. It’s up to you — so stop whining about it.

  14. HareTrinity says:

    As a side note, what’s wrong with a gang dealing drugs?

    Are they physically forcing them upon young people?

    If not, then the people would be consenting to it, and I hardly think that, once they’ve made their decision to take drugs, that one gang will be the only source available.

    The problem there is the lack of education concerning drugs, including the real ups and downs of them all.

    Me, I’ve been offered drugs, and declined because I didn’t know the guy that well and wouldn’t want to risk myself.

    Unfortunately; drugs were mostly banned in one big group around the end of WW2 for no good reason, and even though reasons have presented themselves since, the unfair restrictions put on people will have to be changed at some point.

    And besides, Hoosier; the Mexican women giving birth in America for the benefits; so long as their children get as good an education as other American children then the world will just be gaining another citizen. Who cares about where the blood came from? Blood doesn’t make the person.

  15. Hoosier Texan says:

    Theo, you don’t know the first thing about racism, but I can assure you that I do.

    At least I have made an attempt to fine the most current data, unlike yourself. You want us to believe that there is no border problem in 2005, when you use some data that goes up to only 2003? And if you researched this like you said you did, then you also are being blatantly dishonest about the numbers you have cited. You fail to mention, an I know you found it, that violent crimes have dropped by a large percentage over the the few years leading up to 2003…that is except for violent crimes attributed to illegal aliens. Now who is spinning things here?

    So let me review theo’s conclusions about illegal immigrants since he is the authority on the subject…but ONLY a few statistics that try, and poorly so, to make his point:

    1. Theo doesn’t mind paying for Mexican citizens jumping the boarder for the sole reason of having a baby here because of all the benefits we have to provide as a result.

    2. Theo doesn’t mind that it costs Californians 3 billion a year in gov’t services to illegals. I think that number is low because the data is as old as that used by Theo.

    3. Theo doesn’t mind that in LA, 95% of all outstanding warrants for murder are for illegals.

    4. Theo doesn’t mind that it costs the state of AZ 1 billion for gov’t services for illegals.

    5. Theo doesn’t mind that illegals displaced American workers, including the poor college kids looking for a job, to the tune of $133 billion according to a professer, George Borjas, from the liberal Harvard University.

    6. Theo isn’t concerned that a census estimates middle-eastern illegals with possilble terrorist ties at 115,000.

    7. Theo doesn’t mind himself, or the rest of us, an average of an extra $2,700 in our income to support illegals. And so what that the data is from the Center for Immigration Studies? I haven’t seen a numbers disputing their findings. Have you Mr Lock? I doubt so.

    8. Theo doesn’t seem to care that there is a travel advisory put out by The US State Dept. becasue of the 87 murders in Laredo, Texas because, drug running and kidnappings also just across in Mexico that spills over the borders.

    Now all you have proved is that you have been playing lip service to the middle class, myself included, as well as the lower class. Because all this problem has done is taken billions from potential programs to help us and given it to people who are not even US citizens and have BROKEN THE LAW. And all you can do is follow up with a personal attack accusing me of racism…when you wine of hominem attacks on you? Spare me. I come from a family of immigrants that did things THE RIGHT WAY.

    Yes, there are statistics out there Theo. And until I see some credibly ones contrary to I have found, your argument holds no water and resembles an ostrich with it’s head in the sand. I don’t think the governors of AZ and NM are trying to mislead anyone.

  16. Hoosier Texan says:

    HT, please do a little educating of yourself. It has nothing to do with blood. America and many of it’s states are in a crisis trying to fund education…especially in border states like Texas. I personally know the person who works for the Dallas school district. Know what his job is? To recruit teachers directly from Mexico to teach the Mexican students here. They have English as a second language, but they ARE NOT teaching the kids English. It is a joke here. So the kids are not getting a good education. Hopefully, my children will not suffer being held back from learning when they go to public school.

    Do a little research HT, before you make comments that are ill-informed.

  17. Theo says:

    I repeat:

    Tell me from what data set your “statistics” originally come from. Give me a citation so I can check them out, just like I gave you a citation so you could check my sources of data out. If you had, you’d have known that 2003 is the last year for which the sort of data I reported on is available.

    I’m not an ostrich with my head in the sand. I’m looking at the most recently available public data. Eyes open.

    It’s standard practice to ask for what I’m asking. You shouldn’t be confident in the numbers you rattle off if you don’t know where the numbers originally come from. If you know where the numbers originally come from, you shouldn’t have a problem giving me a citation to them so I can check out the data source myself.

    It’s that simple. Please don’t stall any more.

  18. HareTrinity says:

    Illegals are not “stealing” jobs, Hoosier; that’s impossible. If they’re willing to work a little harder for less pay and you don’t like the competition; maybe you should consider moving.

    And I think your last point #6 shows the racism we keep pointing out to you, Hoosier. There’ll be white Americans with terrorist connections, too.

    And good educations exist in Spanish, too. And England has millions of Mandarin students coming to its colleges and universities, most of whom have a rough grasp of the English language, but mostly they’re not here for the language, and who cares? Sadly, they’ll probably go back to China once they’re finished with their education here, but at least they add variety to the classrooms and lectures whilst here.

    Welfare’s not enough to live comfortably off, and I expect the Mexican kids are likely to go on to get jobs in America. Because the pay and work conditions are probably better, even if the education systems are under-funded (and that is NOT the fault of the illegal immigrants).

    Maybe Texas should start speaking Spanish as its main language…

  19. HareTrinity says:

    Well, Hoosier, if enough people disagree with a law it’s time to consider a better comprimise. That’s democracy.

    And as I recall America was never legally given to the people who now own it, so let’s not have people acting too high and mighty over it.

  20. Hoosier Texan says:

    What you do not understand HT is that MOST Americans want the gov’t to enforce our laws in regards to illegal immigration and see it as a problem. Look at recent Zogby (sp) polls. They also do not agree with Bush’s handling of the issue and neither do I.

    But unfortuanately, liberals and conservatives are more worried with the politics of the situation. Do you really not know what’s going on here except for what you read on IR?

  21. HareTrinity says:

    It’s all very nice that you strongly believe in the IMAGINARY line put between the US and Mexico, Hoosier, but in reality, where you’re forced to live, people tend to move around naturally anyway, and if moving a few miles in one direction will give their kids a better life; they’re probably going to go with that option.

    Trying to relate here, I have to think of the countries connected to England… Hmm… Wales has the same legal system, but Scotland doesn’t, and France is about connected by the channel tunnel. I’ve never heard of an immigration problem with Scottish or French people though. Maybe it’s because they’re perfectly comfortable in their own countries.

    Hint, hint.

  22. Theo says:

    Yes. Indeed, when I taught within 50 yards of the Mexican border, half of my students were Mexican citizens, who legally crossed every day.

    Hoosier Texan, could you identify the particular datasets from which you drew your statistics?

  23. Hoosier Texan says:

    Theo, quit stalling yourself. Quit asking for this that and the other and answer to the topic. You already know where I got the numbers and they are the most recent out there…unlike the conclusion you draw from two year old information.

    Curious though, how did Mexiacan children cross the border legally everyday to attend US public schools? If they did so legally, I am PERFECTLY fine with that because they went through the proper process. But I question your statement on this as you offer no proof what so ever.

  24. Theo says:

    No, I don’t. Actually, I do for about a third of your “sources” — but the rest are “he saids” in speeches that don’t reference the ultimate source of the information. So please do go back and find the ultimate source of the information. If you don’t know of it, how do you know what you’re saying is correct?

    As for my students, they crossed legally via a border crossing point. “Duh” seems to be the appropriate word. If you really had spent a lot of time on the border, you’d know that’s how people who live in border towns cross every day.

  25. HareTrinity says:

    Hoosier, dear…

    The statistics of the year are not fully complete until the year is out. And statistics only give a “snapshot” of what’s happening. Those are the two main problems associated with using statistics.

    Do you have the whole of 2005’s statistics? No. Because it’s AUGUST.

    True; using ones two years out of date is a tad odd, but at least they’re complete, which means you can compare them to other sets of complete statistics without them being apples and oranges, to use the phrase.

    And what Theo says, Hoosier, is that you’ve quoted people SAYING that statistics say this, that, and the other, but have not provided the statistics they were talking about.

    Think you can manage that?

  26. HareTrinity says:

    As a side note; it is possible to use statistics from shorter periods of time than a year, but then they wouldn’t take into account the seasonal changes and such (e.g. that Christmas cards don’t sell well in May is not likely to mean that people have lost all interest in Christmas).

  27. Theo says:

    “You were not revealing about all the information you collected, but don’t want to discuss that…”

    …if I were religious, I’d exclaim “Sweet Holy Jesus!” Look at the post, man. The sources are right there, in the text!

    “Duh” seems to be an entirely appropriate word.

    I believe I’m done here.

  28. Kirk Land says:

    The article looks like a slam dunk to me. All these claims of a border crisis look like nothing but the kind of false scare that the Nazis loved to whip up.

    Xenophobia combined with nationalism. Is that what the Republicans stand for these days? Scary.

  29. Hoosier Texan says:

    It doesn’t suprise me that another liberal, Kirk, would think an article a slam dunk when it is using 1 1/2 to 2 year old data. You absolutely can draw no conclusion from Theo’s outdated statistics. And again, theo skirts what else he found. that is, violent crime has significantly been reduced in the US during the end of the time period Theo wants to talk about. but violent crime commited by illegals decreased at a much smaller rate. In fact, look at one of Theo’s sources and it looks like complaints have increased on Texas border towns in the first chart. I haven’t been able to check the rest because I had too many windows open.

    So just brush it off Theo when you lose an argument. Typical tatic of the left. Your backed into a corner becaue your called out for not reporting ALL the data you find, you ask for more of this or that yourself to try to create a smoke screen of doubt and declare your done.

    Theo, you are EXACTLY what is wrong with both the left and the right!

  30. Ralph says:

    You haven’t been able to verify the claims you made because you “had too many windows open?”

    That’s the lamest excuse I ever heard.

    Go close some windows and do your homework.

  31. Hoosier Texan says:

    No Ralph, I actually did my homework.

  32. HareTrinity says:

    Hoosier, we’ve repeatedly shown that you just STOP talking when you LOSE an argument.

    This appears to be some sort of defence mechanism so that you can forget you ever lost, since later on you have been known to come back and use the SAME argument AGAIN.

    In fact, if I or someone else gave the link to one or more of those occasions now; you’d stop replying here.

    And you think that it’s a “liberal tactic” to “brush it off” when we’re still here trying to talk sense into you about just how to use statistics?

    Repressing that much can’t be good for you.

  33. Hoosier Texan says:

    HT, I don’t see you being able to argue or prove anything wrong I have said. No one has made any type of logical argument against what I have found and Theo’s “research” his outdated and generally does not speak to anything that is going on for 2004 and 2005.

    And all I see from you is some little side kick that chimes in and says “Yeah, that’s right,” or “See, I told you so” and you don’t do any reasearch yourself. You just eat up everything that is espoused on this board and take it for granted. You, as well as Theo and others, ignore speaking to facts when you can’t as well. So to accuse me of going silent when you think I have lost is the pot calling the kettle black.

  34. HareTrinity says:


    We’ve set up good argument against you time and time again. But you always just disappear and then come back and use your SAME losing argument later on.

    What’s the point?

  35. Pingback: Irregular Times: News Unfit for Print»Blog Archive » Mexico Meets Minutemen With Mobile Kitchens
  36. Trackback: Irregular Times: News Unfit for Print»Blog Archive » Mexico Meets Minutemen With Mobile Kitchens
  37. Peregrin Wood says:

    Now, the Mexican government is sending an army convoy with water treatment plants and mobile kitchens to Texas to help the survivors.

    Why don’t these Minutemen get off their high horses and follow the lead of the Mexican army – and help Katrina survivors instead of training their sights on boy scout border patrol?

    Hurricane Katrina was a REAL threat. All this border nonsense is nothing but hype – as the numbers presented here clearly demonstrate.

  38. Pingback: Irregular Times: News Unfit for Print
  39. Trackback: Irregular Times: News Unfit for Print
  40. Pingback: Irregular Times » Blog Archive » A Year Later, Immigration Scare Claims Debunked
  41. Trackback: Irregular Times » Blog Archive » A Year Later, Immigration Scare Claims Debunked
  42. Pingback: Irregular Times » Blog Archive » Illegal Immigration: Where’s the Fire?
  43. Trackback: Irregular Times » Blog Archive » Illegal Immigration: Where’s the Fire?

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