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Mohammed Comics Continued: Muslims Infantilizing the Prophet

The row over a Danish newspaper publishing twelve images of Mohammed is getting more heated. People are chanting “Death to Denmark” in Pakistan. Ambassadors are being recalled. Scandanavians are being told to evacuate the Middle East. A French news paper, France Soir, republished the images as a statement of solidarity… and the editor got fired as a result.

Time for another Mohammed Comic, then.

Mohammed Comic Number 3: Muslims Infantilize the Prophet

It should be noted that not all, not even a majority, not even a large minority of Muslims are engaged in threats against non-Muslims who create images of Mohammed. Indeed, an independent Jordanian newspaper chastised extremists, asking “What brings more prejudice against Islam, these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras or a suicide bomber who blows himself up during a wedding ceremony in Amman?”

Nevertheless, this reactive movement is speaking for Islam, is being buoyed by large crowds, has resulted in broad boycott compliance, and has been promoted by the official actions of a number of governments. That makes the movement a serious threat, not only to the individuals who publish an image of Mohammed, but to free expression itself. The only non-violent defense against such a movement is the continued exercise of the variety of free expression being threatened, without apology.

Speaking as someone with no religion looking from the outside in, this all looks really embarrassing. Is it really a good idea for a religion to treat its prophet as a weak, coddled baby in need of a ferocious mama bear? Is it really?

708 comments to Mohammed Comics Continued: Muslims Infantilizing the Prophet

  • Kevin

    You’re making this up, Jim. Islam is the “religion of peace.”

    :)

  • Jim

    I know you meant your comment lightly, and I take it as such, so long as you’re willing to acknowledge that Islam is no more and no less a “religion of peace” than Christianity.

    :)

  • Jim

    Well, yeah, you’d be exercising freedom of speech alright. But then you’d also be a lying sack of shit, FK.

    Here in the USA, we let losers like you deny the holocaust publicly and loudly. Then we publicly and loudly laugh in your pathetic faces, nobody takes you seriously, and you go slide back under a rock. Works nicely that way.

  • Null

    No more and no less a “religion of peace” than Christianity?

    Right… that would be Christianity the totalitarian pseudo-religious political movement that calls for world domination and subjugation of non-Christians, would it? Such domination to be achieved by any and all means, including “holy” war, is that right? The Christianity whose central figure declared that “war is deceit”, am I making myself clear?

  • FK

    The day we can openly deny holocaust in Germany and not be arrested ,then we will have real freedom of speech and not by villyfying a prophet.

  • Jim

    Read your history, Null. Read your history.

  • Tony

    Well, just because you have the right to say something or draw something doesn’t mean that thing is nice, or right, or good. FK, you DO have the right to deny the holocaust, just like someone’s got the right to burn the flag. That doesn’t make it right or good to say it. But if we don’t protect people’s rights to say things we don’t want to hear, we effectively force them to say only what we do want to hear.

    Frankly, I support the right of Muslims to say they don’t like the way someone depicts Mohammed. I think it’s right and even appropriate for them to say that they find it insulting, and to ask people to stop. Where they cross the line are the death threats, which limit speech through threats of violence.

  • MacMan

    Originally, most Muslims were Christians converted to Islam at the point of a sword. The middle east used to be the heaviest Christian population on earth before Mohamet. This religion started in violence and I see no changes in sight. Is anyone surprised at the death threats, weapon-fire and such over a bunch of cartoons? I’m not. Watch Europe carefully over this issue as there is a good chance it will signal the final decline of the West. Once these nutjobs succeed in quashing freedoms there, they with start in the US.

  • HareTrinity

    Originally most heathens were converted to Christianity at swordpoint, too. It’s what these religions tend to do.

    Personally, I’ve never met a violent Muslim. All of those I met, even those from poorer backgrounds, have been very decent people. Wish I could say the same for all the Christians I’ve met.

    Noticeably the Christian fundamentalists coddle their god, too. It’s worth remembering that the fundamentalists, including any others who’ll easily sink to the level of death threats, are not good representatives of the religion.

    I’ve met very nice Muslims and Christians, friendly Hindus, some lovely Sikhs, well-balanced Wiccans, lots of very open-minded atheists, deists, and probably more. It’s not the religion that makes the person, even if it is a big part of their life. I’ve also heard of and met some of the nuts in every group, too, afterall.

  • Peacemaker

    “[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”
    “{48.13] And whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely We have prepared burning fire for the unbelievers”. The Holy Qur’an
    What person considers this to be free and tolerant religion? Above are the statements from the Qur’an, (there are many more that give us the same message)
    The real question so what upsets them in that cartoon…Whether it is the fact that someone “dared” to make it or the way Muhammad was presented? It seems to be acceptable and OK to execute those that do not believe in Allah and is not ok to make a cartoon…. What tolerance is that? ….What sense of humour?
    Even if there was a legitimate reason to feel upset about the cartoon all they can do is threaten to kill …Why in response they don’t make a cartoon or print a book or something like that. That would show some tolerance…….
    Core of it all is that they are actually looking for a reason to get rid of all the non believers and this is a just another poor excuse to continue threats and killings.
    In any case if they haven’t made so much fuss about it no one would’ve even noticed that cartoon… but this way they’ve made a really good advertisement to Islam… Good on you. Maybe now more people will became aware of what we are dealing with….

  • Null

    HareTrinity: Your predisposition towards moral equivalence has taken you into the realm of wishful thinking. I defy you to cite any meaingful references re. “swordpoint”.

  • abu selam

    oh people it since devil their is not animals you have a human head with you men to sleep with men it since devil and your democracy is from devil!!!!!!

  • Hakan

    Do you like to hurt the feelings of 1.5 billion muslims?

  • Dom

    Hakan,

    It may be necessary to confront 1.5 billion people who think their sensitivities are more important than human life, yes. The illustrations above make a neat point, too, that God is unlikely to lose sleep over art so much as out-of-control, sanctimonious fanatics who claim to speak in his name.

    As to whether feelings or life is more important, one might also consider that many such people are equally offended by scientific theory, women’s rights or the practising of another religion.

    I like people, and I like other people to learn tolerance. So this 1.5 billion, I love to offend them.

  • Hakan,

    Do you think that the Muslims who are chanting for the death of cartoonists – CARTOONISTS for pity’s sake! – are concerned about hurting anyone’s feelings?

    I’m much more concerned about who is hurting people’s physical bodies than I am with who is hurting people’s feelings.

    Christian fundamentalists like Reverend Herbert Lusk and Muslim fundamentalists like those chanting “Death to Denmark!” are gaining too much real power of life and death over people all over this planet for me to be concerned about whose feelings are hurt by a comic strip.

    Where are your priorities, Hakan?

  • Kevin

    Abu Selam:

    out figuring have to say you head hurt is mine making!

  • Kevin

    Have any of you seen the cartoon depicting Mohammed at the gates of, uh, Heaven turing back suicide bombers because he is “out of virgins?” I saw it on the news last night, but I was at the gym at the time listening to my headphones so I didn’t hear the audio in case the reporter said where the cartoon came from.

    If anyone has a link (or knows what I’m talking about), I’d like to see it. I believe it was featured on ABC’s national news.

  • abu selam

    Democracy is from devil!

  • Well, if that’s the case, Mr. Abu Selam, I want to thank the devil.

    Maybe your God is a royal – emphasis on the royal – pain in the ass who ought to make way for people power.

  • Jim

    Hakan,

    You hurt the feelings of me and billions of liberty loving people when you defend death threats against people who are only engaging in speech.

    So let me turn that around: Do you like to hurt the feelings of billions of liberty-loving people?

  • Jim

    Kevin, you can find that comic by visiting the second link in the main body of this article. (“twelve images of Mohammed…”)

    I think perhaps we should mirror these images today. We shall.

  • Coke Zero Fan

    I think that Jim the creator of this sites has a good sense of humor and of liberty and western views.
    I personally come from a muslim family, but who is from Turkey, thus pocessing more western views than muslimic.
    I think there are several big problems related to issues mentioned above. First of all there are mistakes made by the non-muslim side in this discussion which consist of pure IGNORANCE. Not in form of drawing the comic, but in form of not knowing what sort of population it is made fun of. People in the west unfortunately judge others by their own feeling of good and evil. A mistake which actually led to the global political situation today. The people in muslim countries unfortunately are highly uneducated and many of those countries just do not have DEMOCRACY…there is no right of free speech and opinion. That the first thing people especially in the west have to realize. You can not argue with them in form of talking about freedom and stuff…They will not understand. These people were not fortunate enough to see a french revolution or profit from the findings of the renaissance
    . But the main problem is that both sides do not have a clue about the muslim religion. Unfortunate things that are taught today are things that increase the power of the leaders and especially men, since these things are taught by them. It is the same with christanity. You can alwaysinterprete everything as you like which in christianity led to two thousand years of non-stop bloodshed andincredible cruelness. Just because the christian world has developed faster we can not forget that people used christanity to kill millions of people.
    People whu brainwash other people to do suicide bombings are NOT muslims. It is just a wrong excused based on lines. I personally laugh about translated verses of books since people will not know what the original meaning of written things was. Translations are always tentative especially for books out of that time.
    This got a little too long, but the point is..of course those pictures are fun but give a wrong impression of islam,( which of course is ok under the right of free speech)….the problem is people who feel insulted are people without education who can not read and write…for them Mohammed is everything as for us people in the west is our freedom…and their reactions will not be creative as the pictures but dectructive which is just normal since they havent learned differently…of course here we have to get away from stereotyping since ther are many modern muslims as well who suffer because of the actions of some brainwashed radicalists….This topic is just very insulting to those people who do not know modern views…but let me give you an example..why dont you are the Danish author draW funny pictures of jewish kids who were thrown by loving christians(German soldiers were Christians by the way) into gas and burning chambers. Why doesnt anyone do that especiakly the Danish cartoonist,? There is a freedom of speech right, I wanna see the reactions to that and how you defend that…The point is that there is stuff that some people really find insulting and how much there is freedom of speech and thought sometimes you have to keep stuff for yourself or publish it on your own website and not in newspapers…there are such things as RESPECT….To be clear again.. Iam totally against fundamentalist streams and all those blind persons. Everyone should live there religion for themselves and respect. But in this case the artist or Jim has to respect others too…otherwise we people in the west would be just as ignorant as the people we blame and make fun of….

  • Junga

    No, Coke Zero. If Jim has to respect others in his speech, then he does not have freedom of speech.

    Speech is not free if people are not free to say, “I don’t have respect for you or your ideas.”

  • Jim

    Coke Zero Fan,

    Thanks for writing — what you have to say is thought-provoking and I’m glad you felt free to say it, even though I don’t agree with all of the content of what you said.

    See above at the beginning of the comments, where I acknowledge FK’s right to speak and publish holocaust denials, and where I also acknowledge my right to call FK a lying sack of shit. This applies to your hypothetical example of a Danish author who draws and published pictures of Jewish kids tossed into the gas chambers by German Christians, and tried to make a joke out of the tableau. YES, I support the right of that hypothetical Danish author to draw and publish such pictures. YES, I support the right of others to heap criticism and insults upon him or her. NO, I do not support attempts by others to make it impossible legally or practically for such images to be drawn or published.

    So YES, I support the right of the 12 cartoons in Jyllands Posten to be published. YES, I support the right of others to heap criticism and insults upon the authors of those cartoons. Freedom of speech works both ways. But NO, I do not support the spreading attempts by others to make it impossible legally or practically for such images to be drawn or published.

    Finally, if “in this case the artist or Jim has to respect others too,” then what does respect mean? Required “respect” is without value. Respect matters because respect is a choice that people have.

    I encourage you to check out other articles on Irregular Times regarding religion. You’ll find that we are equal-opportunity critics of organized religion, poking fun and ire at Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism as well as Islam when the institutional leaders of all those religions attempt to use the power at their disposal to shut up, dupe, or otherwise harm people.

  • Logic

    There’s nothing wrong with depicting Muhammad in ANY way. That’s what I think. But then again, why is it CRIMINAL to deny Holocust? You can’t wear Svestica on your T-Shirt.
    Well I know some idiot’s going to say: “well you can”. Well, OF COURSE you CAN. But you might get imprisoned, forced to resign, publicly appologize, deported and/or fined depending on the country you’re from.
    So “Freedom of expression”? BUT we tell you the topics you can excersice that RIGHT. I just don’t understand, what’s up with all these double standards? Would somebody please answer me?

  • Jim

    You know, Logic, I love Europe, I defend Europe when I speak with my fellow France-bashing Americans. But here’s one point on which Europe’s got it wrong in my book. I agree that European states shouldn’t have laws forbidding the denial of the Holocaust or the wearing of a Swastika. It’s completely counter-productive; it becomes forbidden fruit and then every rebellious teenager wants to do it. On this point, the Americans have it right: you can wear a swastika here, and you can deny the Holocaust until you’re blue in the face, and you won’t be fined or imprisoned. You’ll just be laughed at, called an idiot, and publicly ridiculed, which is fully within the right of others. Ridicule is much more effective in combating anti-semitism than tossing people into jail and turning them into prisoners of “conscience.”

  • skh

    fuck your mother& sister & another family

  • Logic

    I agree with you Jim. So it’s okay for the US to defend these Danish cartoonists (and condemn Muslim Fundamentalists), as they – as you say – excercise freedom of expression to the best they can (not 100%, you have to admit), but as for europeans, who have the same kind of censorship, it doesn’t make AS MUCH sense. I bet they would react just the same if it was the other way around. AS IT IS, I just remembered the threats of sanctions on Iran because of what their President had said (he denied Holocaust). You might say World is against Iran because they are developing Nuclear Weapon BUT don’t be naive, they’ve been doing that for YEARS NOW. things got heated up and everybody joined in RIGHT AFTER that president of theirs started dening holocaust (allegedly that is). You see what I mean?

    and skh, I don’t even know what you mean!

  • “another family”? I don’t get that part.

  • Fruktata

    Yes, very literal sexual instructions. Let me continue them.

    … then, find a family of musical singers, and fuck them too. After that, wait two days, then meet with the man in the panama hat, and fuck him…

    Odd…

  • mini

    Look frenz, the only thing i m concerned abt is the apocalyptic war of civilisations and ultimately wiping out of humanity from face of the earth because of these issues. Common man, can’t u c that it can develop into a nuclear flashpoint and a just reason for the radicals to bring hypothetical end 2 the world a reality as mentioned in Bible

  • Logic

    “a reality as mentioned in Bible”, that’s funny. In 21st century people still believe in this? a dude living 2000 years ago foresaw a world war? what’s next? Torah, Bible and Quran are words of God?

  • mini

    centuries do not change the reality !! they r seeped in the deeds and deeds r always in present. The basic law of nature has always been the same and from time immemorial that as u sow so shall u reap. U sow hatred and reap hatred. My dear frenz from all countries and religions, v all will have our ultimate calling one day and only then will v b able to know for ourselves that whether GOD exists or not. Before that, it is foolish 2 wipe each other out … just remember, if v don’t survive today, there will b no one left to propagate our respective faiths … Faith and GODs r still there because humans r there to practice it … no humans/level headed/right minded – no faith/religion/GOD

  • Frank

    Look at how these peacefull muslims react to freedom of speach…AK47s, grenades, guns, kidnappings… Who are these loonies ??? Ah but maybe the problem lies here… Isn’t true that Muhamad was a thief and sentenced alot of his ennemies to death…???? After all, aren’t all these gun-toting muslims not just emulating their ‘prophet’ ?

    Isn’t time we realize that islam is bad for our health ?

    Food for thought.

  • An American Mick

    skh, you have the right, of course, to express whatever it is you meant by that. I admit, you gave me a reason to pause, however briefly.

    Jim, I applaud your site and admire your skilled defense of freedom.

    Censorship and control are acts of abject fear. Oppressive religion is a tool for weak, controlling minds. The Moslem world is demonstrating clearly, for all to see, the weakness and fear that pervades their culture. The world will be a better place when they advance to higher ground, rising above their weakness and fear.

  • Jim

    Mick, I agree, but I also think we should apply that critical lens to our own society. We’d probably find a lot wrong here, too.

  • I think the major difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christians will openly denounce anything that happened in the past as a mistake or entirely wrong (e.g. the crusades, abortion clinic bombings, etc.) whereas you will never hear a muslim denounce the attacks on 9/11 or any other form of violence that THEIR brothers and sisters of their faith perpetrated. Nor will they stand up against the current fanatics who threaten violence if they don’t get their way. Additionally, the quran blatantly encourages violence against any who is not of that faith, another point where you will never hear a muslim stand against. All muslims are willing participants of this ongoing and increasingly violent trend across the globe because of their unwillingness to stand against it. If a Christian preacher/pastor stood up and advocated the type of violence islamic imams advocate they would be roundly denouced by most all Christians, case in point, Pat Robertson and some of his foot-in-mouth remarks about “taking out” the president of Venezuela. Muslims choose to be silent because they are using the fanatics to do their dirty work while they sit back and blame them, but do nothing to help or say anything AGAINST what is being perpetrated. There is no faith that is entirely clean of wrong doing, but there is one that continues to perpetrate bloody and brutal murders in the name of their god and the followers of that faith should be ashamed of themselves for doing absolutely nothing to condemn the acts that are taking so many lives brutally nor do they do anything to help prevent any future acts of this sort. The entire world will continue to suffer at the hands of muslims unless we all stand against the crimes being committed in the name of allah including sensible muslims…are there any? And I don’t want to hear about how persecuted others have been at the hands of Christians, etc. because that is not an excuse for the brutal beheadings that are still occuring in this day and age. Wake up people or be overtaken by this ever-expanding, brutally violent faith called islam. Up until I hear an actual muslim take accountability for what is giong on, denounce the violence, and stop changing the subject to some other injustice that is taking place or took place in the past every time the discussion turns to the violent murderous acts taking place by muslims, I will have no respect for that faith. This is not about a cartoon, this is about those of one faith imposing their will and beliefs on EVERYONE every chance they get.

  • SLH

    This may not be a popular comment, however I am going to say it. I worked for several years in the office of a Muslim physician and he was very anti-semitic. He had numerous physician friends,also Muslim, who were anti-semitic. I found that the Muslims I knew thru this man were almost always intolerant of any remarks, or perceived slights agains’t their religion but they sure had plenty of terrible things to impy about Jews including denying the holocaust. In my experience they could dish it out, but they sure couldn’t take it.

  • abu selam

    لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
    There is no God except Allah and Mohammed is its prophet is
    Oh loud to when will follow their truth? Islam is of ((Allah)) come (((God does not have children God has not son God is not like humans God is much large))) Islam is truth Islam is correct one way!!! and democracy is of devil who follows devil it has lost!! Oh critical world who says to you your men with men marry? You do not have to realign of ((prophet Lot)) belongs its people goods badly, men with men slept like you today! and God destroyed its people!!! You follow devil and it finds that that is correctly NO NO you since wrong you writes bad pictures on our prophet peace is after ((Mohammed prophet)) and peace is on all prophets! You have atom bomb Hiroschima and Nagasaki struck that is democracy??? is that liberty???? You have many humans killed is that liberty?? It that your democracy??? You make are that your democracy for dirty films of men with men and Mrs with men???? Who says to you in such a way which makes?? Who who who I say who to you says in such a way which make to devil

  • Fruktata

    There is no pickle exept for those made out of cucumbers, and a burger is its sandwich

    blah, blah, blah religious babble from crazy people who go on in sentences that make no sense and have several punctuation marks in a row!!!! Is the devil that is a cinema feature????

    I would much rather follow the devil than follow your incoherent, delusional picture of the universe.

    Picke is truth! Pickle is correct one way!!!

  • Oh my god, I’m clutching my stomach after the ‘pickle’ sentence. That’s hilarious. Well said, Fruktata.

    Jim, or other IrregularTimes people, I’d love to see examples of any direct emails you’ve received about this posting. Surely there are some doozies?

  • SLH

    Fruktata, while I applaud your efforts you are way off base. There is no VEGETABLE but cucumber and chef salad is its way!!!
    For vegetarians this is an important point and ((I as well as others)) feel that to mention (((burger))) in the same sentence as vegetables is blasphemous. Cucumber is truth, cucumber is correct one way!!!

  • Secular Democrat

    Nice site. I’ve been considering the flip side to Freedom of Speech. Sure you have a right to say anything you want, draw anything you want, publish any thing you can get published, offend any sensibility, I buy all that. But what about my right to hear silence? Is there no corresponding right that says I don’t have to listen to you? When I made my way through the crowd of pro-life Christian fundamentalist nutcases at the clinic where I had my abortion, I really felt like my rights to my private airspace were violated. I wanted to smash some praying faces (but I didn’t, alas). I think I would have been within my rights, but I don’t think the law would have agreed with me. To turn off the volume, block the emailer, or otherwise avoid idiot speech, first you have to hear enough of it to realize its trash. I don’t want to hear ANY of it, not one word.

  • haakonsen

    harking back to Coke Zero’s comment, Westerners never tired and will never understand why ppl bomb themselves in the name of whatever entity to prove a point, just like japanese kamikaze’s, or monks burning themselves in defiance of politicians. Western equivalent are usually martyrs have done the that do it to elevate themselves into some sort of social prominence and they are revered
    These suicide bombers are common folk as Coke Zero pointed out, they are from a DIFFERENT CULTURE! How would you feel after thousands of years living accustomed to a civilization and having a sense of ownership to a piece of land to be told that you ought to embrace another culture that allows rapist, molesters and common criminals to rome free let alone feed them with tax dollars everyday in a comfy cell when the common man is living in subsistence as well.
    We have to UNDERSTAND first!! Tolerance is almost a dirty word at times, in ways that we seek to to tolerate and forget about understanding. the way that Prophet mohammed is revered in the middle east si not the same as how jesus is revered in the western world.. The word pride comes to mine, Japanese will kill themselves over pride, chinese will hang themselves when they fail an exam, westernerns don’t, WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO IMPOSE WESTERN VALUES ON other civiliations willingly without consequence, granted they are civil liberties being suppresed in these regions but crime is not rampant, if we let economics take its toll, these countries will modernize in their own time, just like turkey for example!!!! STOP BRAINWASHING ppl who are different from us to conform, we cannot compare apples and oranges here, freedom here does not equal to freedom there… these cartoons are equivalent of defacing your parents grave exhuming them and then trampling on their bodies…..

  • Junga

    Sorry, but no, Haakonsen, I do not have to feel guilty about imposing Western values on someone who threatens to kill me and says that I don’t have the right to freedom of speech. I don’t owe a damn thing to that person.

    I’m not for the war in Iraq. Was against it from the beginning. But I’m not about to let someone else’s religious obsession take my freedom away.

    When THEY say that I don’t have the right to say what I want, or draw what I want, THEY are imposing their values on ME. Get it?

  • Jim

    Johny Logic wrote: “You will never hear a muslim denounce the attacks on 9/11 or any other form of violence that THEIR brothers and sisters of their faith perpetrated. Nor will they stand up against the current fanatics who threaten violence if they don’t get their way.”

    Well, that’s bullshit. Plenty of Muslims speak out against fundamentalist Islam. I’ve met a couple personally, and seen loads of Muslims saying so on the media. Please don’t fall into the trap of assuming all Muslims are nutcases. The problem is fundamentalist Islam.

  • Jim

    Haakonsen,

    Nobody lives for thousands of years. And I agree, we should not brainwash people … by kidnapping them and making death threats to keep them from speaking their minds.

  • Jim

    Secular Democrat writes:

    “Sure you have a right to say anything you want, draw anything you want, publish any thing you can get published, offend any sensibility, I buy all that. But what about my right to hear silence? Is there no corresponding right that says I don’t have to listen to you?”

    Sure. It’s called turning off the radio, unplugging the TV, tossing that book in the trash and not visiting this website.

  • haakonsen

    Junga Says:
    February 3rd, 2006 at 6:03 pm
    Sorry, but no, Haakonsen, I do not have to feel guilty about imposing Western values on someone who threatens to kill me and says that I don’t have the right to freedom of speech. I don’t owe a damn thing to that person.

    ‘I don’t owe a damn thing to that person’. Everyday I hear that rhetoric, average citizens to complain about taxes, welfare, environment, how the hell is a muslim in a foreign county imposing upon your ideals here? American freedom of speech will never go away, but if we are to live in this ever globalizing world, there are certain lines we do not cross, YOUR governement allow fanatics in the country when 911 occured, YOURT governemtn trained fanatics all over the world to topple their governents and then leave them to fend for themselves, YOUR President invoke his GOD to champion the cause for freedom, YOUR goverment allowed for lax border and immigration control to solve a labor issue, it is up to YOU to first champion leaders that do not CAUSE the problem to begin with and then blame others for the consequences. 911 is sad tragic event to wake Americans yet it is also an opprtunity for Americans to wake up and ponder, but YOUR govt chose not to allow Americans to jusify the attack for fear of acknowledging wrondoing but instead wage a WAR that will forever polarize the world into deeper chaos. IT is up to YOU to vote for a govt that that takes your lifes more seriously by not enraging and provoking world hatred upon Americans with its terible foreign policies, that has left a lot countries war ridden.. there is only so much NIMBY I can deal with sometimes but sometimes you really have to deal with what’s going on in your your own back yard first…

  • Fruktata

    How is a Muslim in a foreign country imposing upon me here? By threatening to come over here and kill me if I don’t comply with the rules of his religion, get it?

    Don’t get on to me about President Bush, you nincompoop. I’m an American liberal – get it? I spend quite a bit of time opposing his stupid policies. But, just because President Bush is a Christian American idiot doesn’t mean that Muslim fundamentalists are not being idiotic as well.

    When they tell me I don’t have the right to draw a cartoon, and I say “Screw You” to them, I’m not imposing my values on them. They’re trying to impose their values on me, and I’m saying, “Go To Hell – You Don’t Have The Right”

    If you don’t like it, tough.

  • haakonsen

    frukata, you are missing the point, there is no you are right I’m wrong in the first place, that is what caused the problem, do not equate ‘civil rights’ with ‘RIGHT’, the very fact that you consider them idiots based on YOUR values is what I’m getting at, are you willing to kill youself for freedom of speech? These ‘Idiots’ are celebrated in thier county, and so is George Bush here, I don’t think so, that is where the gray areas are, in THEIR minds, they are fighting for their right to continue thier lifestyle as Muslims wihout the benefit of Western TV and propaganda, remain sheltered from the world, if you beleive in ‘civil rights’, then leave them alone, these cartoons are untimely at a time where the world so divided as it is, it does not help the situation, that is where they are coming from, the way the us the term ‘rights’ is ultimately DIFFRENT from what you consider rights here.. America will never win the war on terror as long as we consider them as terrorist and not soldiers when we ourselves are are retaliating with violence. It will be really sad when your premonition comes true with suicide bombers at our doorstep. There is only gray areas in this world today, and we should respect and try to understand what those gray areas are, Nobody is DIRECTLY assaulting YOU on your rights!! It is your govt that they are against, but sadly, the USA govt does ‘represent’ you in thier eyes…

  • Jim

    Haakonsen,

    The cartoons were published in Denmark.

  • haakonsen

    Denmark or US, in their eyes, the West is the West, that is what THEY KNOW AND ASSUME! Try living in a war torn country for country If the they are only voicing thier aggravations against Danes and French, why do you feel that they are imposing on your ideals here?

  • Jim

    Haakonsen,

    “Only voicing aggravations against Danes and French” is fine. Threatening the lives of Danes and French is not fine. Kidnapping people is not fine. Bomb threats are not fine. So first, let’s be clear about the behavior that is problematic. Speech, even and especially shouting speech, is to be valued. Violence is another deal. Even on this website, we’ve gotten a death threat or two already.

    Second, I am referring to your written notion that “they” (your odd word; Muslims are not a monolithic “they,” it is fundamentalist fascist Muslims that are at issue) are in “their” countries being bothered by Western cultural imperialism. Denmark is not a primarily Muslim country; rather, it is smack dab in the historical middle of the cradle of “Western” European culture.

  • Aggrevated

    If you check out what passes for funny cartoons in arab newspapers, you’ll find extremely offensive depictions of Jews. I Googled “antisemitism in arab newspapers” and it gives links to copies of arabic publications which have cartoons that are completely insulting and demeaning to Jewish people. One depicts a blender with America feeding the middle eastern countries into it and then pouring the resulting mush into the mouth of a jewish dog (dog with a Star of David on him). Many, many cartoons that are unbelievably unsulting to the Jewish religion. So why, muslim community, are you not up in arms about this? Why is your religion untouchable but everyone else’s is fair game?? Hypocritical!

  • Ralph

    Jim, the problem isn’t even fundamentalist Islam. There are millions of Islamic fundamentalists in the world, and only a few thousand violent maniacs.

    Not every fundamentalist Christian bombs abortion clinics, and not every fundamentalist Muslim is a terrorist.

    I cringe every time I hear Bush say this is a war of ideologies. Why the hell is a democracy with freedom of speech and freedom of religion fighting a war of ideologies? People should have the right to any damn ideology they want.

    Not that I particularly like religious fundamentalism of any stripe, but if we can’t tell the difference between a war of ideologies and attempting to bring people who plot and execute violence to justice, we’re setting ourselves up for a repeat of all that was foolish and unnecessary about the Cold War.

    Bush and his friends were pining for the good ol’ days of Red baiting and war profiteering when 9/11 happened. Whenever someone says we’re struggling against “Islamic fundamentalism,” it’s music to their ears–the good ol’ days all over again.

  • Tony

    I wonder what would happen to all this “freedom of speech” talk if someobody from the Middle East came and burned an American flag on the Capitol Mall in front of a bunch of tourists. I’m sure uncle Bob and aunt Sally from Peoria would just LOVE to see freedom of speech in action, the police would stand up for the first amendment and do nothing to stop it, and nobody in Congress would call for an anti-flag burning law. Riiiight…

  • Jim

    Well, Ralph, I said “fundamentalist fascist” in my last statement. But I do struggle against Islamic fundamentalism in the sense that I argue against its dogmatic, pushy sense of inerrancy. That’s a kind of struggle, although it is decidedly not the sort that Bush has in mind.

    What I find most galling in this case is the behavior of militant Islamic fundamentalists. There you go; I probably should add the “militant” as a prelude to be as clear as possible.

  • americangirl

    haakonsen said:
    “frukata, you are missing the point, there is no you are right I’m wrong in the first place, that is what caused the problem, do not equate ‘civil rights’ with ‘RIGHT’”

    You are totally wrong that “you are right, I am wrong” caused the problem in the first place. Defense of ethics is NOT the source of evil. The source of evil is NOT belief in the reality of right and wrong. The source of ethics is what is right, and the source of evil is violating ethics out of ignorance, carelessness, or hatefulness. Both right and wrong are real.

    Defending open civil discourse is right – right for human societies, right for families, right for individuals, right for progress, right for knowledge, right for life. Injuring or killing someone for saying something that hurt your feelings with words or cartoons is evil. You want reasons for why this is true, then study life, philosophy, human nature, human societies.

    Civil rights like free speech ARE right. Anyone who tries to dissuade you from right is trying to smash up the ground upon which civil rights are built. You are (of course) totally free to say that there is no such thing as right, but to people listening, don’t swallow this mind poison – the cost is the destruction of that which keeps humans from even greater depths of misery, oppression, and backwardness.

  • Bill

    #47. haakonsen Says: “We have to UNDERSTAND first!! Tolerance is almost a dirty word at times, in ways that we seek to to tolerate and forget about understanding.”

    No, this is not true; we do not have to UNDERSTAND first. I have been tolerant of all religions my whole life without understanding them. I was taught to be from a very young age. It’s something called Freedom of Religion – a foreign concept in most Islamic nations, hence the real problem. The tolerance issue is in the Middle East, not the West.

    And if you want to know what we Americans feel strongly about, well, let’s start with Civil Rights (i.e. individual rights, individual freedoms, etc.). The same stuff that gets the US in trouble all over the world. The thing is, every time you help someone, somebody else ends up feeling screwed over.

    Another thing that we really feel strongly about is our country and our flag, and what they stand for. And one of the most insulting things you can do to me is to desecrate my flag. But don’t think for a moment that in the Middle East they were completely unaware of this fact as they drop the US flag to the ground and trample it, or raise it in the air and burn it. One might think that they were intentionally trying to insult us. But now knowing how sensitive to insults they can be, I must have been way off base.

    Which leads us to…
    #60. Tony Says: “I wonder what would happen to all this “freedom of speech” talk if someobody from the Middle East came and burned an American flag on the Capitol Mall in front of a bunch of tourists. I’m sure uncle Bob and aunt Sally from Peoria would just LOVE to see freedom of speech in action, the police would stand up for the first amendment and do nothing to stop it, and nobody in Congress would call for an anti-flag burning law. Riiiight…”

    Well, I know that it is not illegal to burn the flag in the US, but in today’s times I would expect that you would be arrested for burning one on government property in Washington DC. But the charge would probably be Inciting a Riot, or Arson, or maybe even Taken into Protective Custody… because Uncle Bob and Aunt Sally from Peoria were just about to kick you ass up and down the Capital Mall.

  • Coke Zero Lover

    Jim, once again I agree with your right seeking views. Growing up in Western countries doesn’t give us another chance.
    We were practically born with the sense of democracy and civil rights.
    Again my main point was that you can not (unfortunately) impose yourthinking of right and wrong on other people. especiallly brainwahsed uneducated muslims. These people just do not know better,,,this is hard to believe but sadly true. The world just doesnt consist of us modern people. we are actually a small part of it. As you think that freedom of speech is your right they think it is their right to punish you for it. You have to realize that…in the worst case they will simply kill you and feel good aboutt it because fro them it is not WRONG to punish you. I know this is really hard to grasp but unfortunately thats the way the world works, no matter if we like it or not.
    Also I agree that you should be able to say whatever you want …about holocoust , Inquisation , slavery , but there is a big difference betweemn saying what you want and publishing it in newspapers. You form opinins and wrong opinins and impose a bad picture of a,in thewestern world not well known , culture ands increase the confict vbetwen the cultures. People believe whats in newspapers. So people get also insulted. You do notknow how it is to blindly believe in sth. ( I dont know either but I know so many people who do) even the EUROPEAN COURT says it is not right to make fun of reigion. Also it is important to undertsand teh term of insult. even in Denmar you can not simply insult people….the bridge here is that those drawing insult several muslim people..which again is hard to understand but sadly true, in that momnet they are the person in the cartoo and feel insulted…and imsulting people does not fell under the freedom of speech right…

  • cristian

    Mr. abu selam thanks

  • graham

    Mr. Abu selam you said correctly You have correctly said western ones wave devil became!!

  • abu selam

    If their Teufeln were not? did not make bad pictures for it over prophet ((Mohammed))
    But disbelieving humans have that with previous ones prophets ((Noh & Moses& Salih& Hud& Jesus& Mohammed)) peace are said with all prophets
    ((((((((((((((((((I legend you mall it are still correct devil))))))))))))))))))

  • Alp

    Somebody is trying to anger the moslem society. No country, no matter how fool or how “free” attacks anyone without an aim, and the act was an organized one, one after another.

    If we are not careful, such acts will cut any present bond between the societies, creating hatred between, that hasnt been present since he medeival age, and at that age, crusaders were the one carrying the hatred to the moslem world, though there was none diverted from the moslems to the christians.

    You see, our prophet has been holy for us, for centuries, you may have mocked with jesus, but none moslem has ever even thought of doing that, as he is the messenger of god.

    Some are seeing this act, as the act started when US attacked Afganistan, Iraq, and threatens syria and Iran now, some other holy war is about to begin, like the crusaders did, spreading words of injustice done in the moslem world to the other moslems, and directing the anger from 9/11 to the moslem world, which is very doubtful. The operations started in the name of capturing bin laden but resulted in hatred towards the moslems.

    As the seperated state of the iraqis and the complex relationships in Afgan world made it possible for US to triumph on their movements so far, the christian world may have seen that it was possible to alter the state of the moslem countries and use them further to gain more capital, and the movements could be done much more easier, using the religion difference fact.

    Anyway, what you are doing, my friends, with such attacks on our beliefs, is stirring the world, and you yourself will reply by provocating our people to make them look like a complete religion of terrorists, following the path that 9/11 has opened, which most of the moslems think of as a doing of an unknown force, whose roots are within the christian or the jewish world, which are benefiting from the results right now, and will be soon.

    What seems like simple caricatures which defend the “freedom of speech” tend to rise up the tension present, as most of the moslem world is sad about the fact that afgan and iraqi people are living in countries reshaped by the US, whose plans about the future is unknown, as the energy situation gets tense in the world, Russia cutting the gas supply and such. Almost the same scheme was planned on the middle east on WWI, which resulted in an area waiting to be stirred to explode, which resulted in the current situation of the area.

    I may not be guessing the situation correctly, but China and Russia is on the other side of the camp, and as the orange revolutions are rising against Russia all over their areas of interest and China is tried to be kept out of the markets by quotas and such, they too are restless, south america is rapidly electing governments against the US and so.

    Peace, is not a thing that is acquired easily, so please do not threaten it with such simple reasons, the world could live without such caricatures. Sure, you may think of it as freedom, but you may be being somebody else’s puppet on an evil scheme.

    Please do not provocate people who are already suffering and restless. No good shall come out of it. In the current situation, a silly caricature may be one of the series of buttons to a WWIII

  • Alp, it’s totally inappropriate to equate a cartoon with a death threat.

    We’re making cartoons. They’re making death threats. You don’t see a difference?

    Cartoons are intended to provoke feelings, perhaps even feelings of anger among some. But do they really provoke wars? Come on.

    If somebody really launched WWIII in reaction to a cartoon, who would you blame? The cartoonist? I hope not. The lunatic in such a case would be the person who started the war.

    When we get to the point where we’re whispering to each other, “Don’t say such things! The religious fanatics might try to kill you and start a war!” – then, we have lost all backbone. Free speech is dead when people let death threats cower them into silence.

  • sassman

    To all, including (but not limited to) those who are against depictions of their holiest symbols:

    I have the right to sh*t on ANYONE politically, through print, cartoons, or other indirect means! So do you, and so does anybody else, which is why there’s no monster demonstrations in Western nations when the religious buffoons burn the American, French and Danish flags…duh! (That ol’ Stars & Stripes is OUR most holiest icon for your information! If we were as petty as some of those protesters in the Middle East about OUR symbols, we’d have started a holy war decades agao–WITH NUKES! But I digress…)

    It should also be noted that in Denmark, as well as throughout most of Europe and North America, idolatry is PERFECTLY LEGAL. That BTW, is what the Islamic prohibition of images is for, after all, so that men might not make a false god out of Muhammed or his aids rather than serving the One True God. Christianity actually has that same prohibition, too! So what do we do in the States? We have life-sized cardboard photographs of the likes of Michael Jordan or Brittney Spears so that we may pray to these alters for such blessings as physical prowess at our favorite sport, or that we may find (and have sexual relations with) a girl who looks “just like” the false carboard god we pray to…. We even wear ancient religious artifacts and shrines–and I’m not talking about the Egyptian Ankhs that some people think are cool to wear with their black clothes and Vampire fangs. One of America’s most popular brands of shoes, Nike, is a direct reference to the Greek goddess of victory! This is simply NO DIFFERENT than the cartoons the Islamists condemn. Such depictions of that which is holy is allowed without restriction in Western culture, and if a Westerner choses to worship Muhammed-with-a-Bomb-for-a-Head, it will not be forbidden here.

    Then again, certain Islamists can be accused of doing no less than worshiping Muhammed as god, idols or no! Muhammed was a man! An otherwise ordinary human being, and an illiterate one at that, chosen by God and the Archangel Gabriel because he was innocent, had a strong faith, and was open to the teachings of the Qu’ran. He, in his day, was the 6th-century answer to Saint Mary, who brought fourth Jesus the Mesiah. Muhammed brought fourth the teachings of the Qu’ran. He is therefore equivalent to the Virgin, and should be held in no higher regard. IT IS ONLY YOUR GOD WHOM YOU MUST WORSHIP! Honor your prophet, yes, BUT DO NOT WORSHIP HIM! THIS IS THE LOWEST FORM OF IDOLATRY! You would be accused of defiling his words to serve the image of him that you carry in your in your own minds! This is not what the prophet teaches…nor is it the will of God.

    SASS has spoken.

  • Coke Zero Fan

    to americangirl…

    you do not seem to understand that what you think and take as right or wrong or good and evil is the ultimate view!!! Ignorance is not seing and accepting that the world is different. The world is not America or Europe… When people want to argue with someone …espially people from uneducated socities you have tı know whom you are talking to….also the american way of thinking makes me laugh especially when they talk about civil rights!!! this is ridiculous and perverse that people from the states talk about civil rights but go and kill 100000 Iraqis because of OIL and MONEY. Especially in the U.S there are no civil rights if it comes to money and power…or maybe there the only civil form are americans and there are the only ones who should profit from the right to live…not 100,000 uncivilized Iraqis….

  • Coke Zero Fan

    first sentence in 71. there should be a NOT in fron of ultimate

  • Coke Zero Fan

    to sassman…

    of course you have to right to shit on anyone you want…on the otehr hand in some countr4ies blasphemism is punished with the death penalty… I lıked teh last part of your writing and analysis of the prophet….but again you forget who you deal with and you can say what you want but do nothae to wander if somebody kills you for it…again this is how the world works…why doesnt anyone understand…

  • Anonymous

    Jim, re: #39. You are absolutely right. I think we could focus entirely on our own society and have generations of work to do.

  • sandro

    Mr. abu selam
    You said correctly

  • Frank

    I totally agree with you J. Clifford.

    In the west we make drawings and muslims react by burning flags and laucnhing grenades ? Who is the meance to society here ?

  • ef

    Images of the prophet Mohammed have been drawn/painted/published from the early thirteenhundreds onward by both muslim and christian painters/cartoonists. I haven’t heard an outcry against any of them. There is great ancient islamic book art depicting the prophet; painters like Gustave Doré, William Blake, Auguste Rodin, Salvador Dali all portrayed him. In more recent years various countries did cartoons of a far more provocative nature than anything the danes came up with.

    So what makes them so special? Why has this provincial paper in a very small european country become a focus for so much hate? That’s what I would like to understand. What makes their case so different and seemingly intolerable?

  • An American Mick

    (Jim, that was me in #74)

    Alp, re: #68. Someone’s trying to anger Moslem society? A stiff breeze would anger Moslem society. You can criticize the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, of course. So do most of Americans. Don’t think we’re not going to do something about it, but through elections and not with bombs. But then you say “this act” (threats to bomb Denmark?) started with Afghanistan and Iraq. I think you need to remember that Afghanistan started with 9/11.

    Afghanistan was not our enemy. The “Taliban” (meaning ‘religious students’, if my Arabic is correct) was our enemy, because they gave the perpetrator of the worst terrorist attack in history safe haven. But I digress…

    We could even argue back in time and say that 9/11 started with the expulsion of Moslems from Spain in 1492, or with the Crusades. But come one now – that’s all just smoke and mirrors in place of reason. Some Danish guy made a cartoon that reflected the growing Western view of Islam, which is that Moslems use bombs and threats to make their point. And now the Moslem world is proving that very point by calling for beheadings, bombings, and boycotts.

    Moslem society needs to grow up if they’re so easily angered. When I see Moslems oppose terrorism against the West as vigorously as they oppose a few cartoons in Denmark, I might begin to see your point. Until then, I can’t help but think of Moslem society as mostly ignorant and unreasonable. Sure, most reasonable Moslems condemn terrorism. But compare that condemnation (almost imperceptible) with the outrage over these cartoons, and I think you should get my point.

  • abu selam

    To Coke Zero Fan

    !!!!!!!!!!!!Their is correct devil!!!!!!!!!!!

  • An American Mick

    To abu selam:

    When it rains cigarettes, the monkeys come. Brown is ruptured King! Asphalt star boy, whip knot?

    Now we’re getting somewhere! This is fun…

  • janiss

    I tried to read all msgs here before leaving mine. The important point is the names for the societies do not represent every single members’ ideas. There are reasons beyond the ideology for being in a society, just like U.S. citizens who do not support Bush policies or Muslims who do not send death threats to people because of a comic in a newspaper, you belong to a group either you like or not due to several reasons as geography, religion or citizenship. The freedom to express one’s thoughts and comments is really th backbone of liberty and democracy. But the basic definition of freedom is up to the line where one starts to invade other’s freedom. This is applicable here in the comic in Danish newspaper when it hurts the feelings of a portion of Muslims and the nonsense death threaths of narrow minded Islamic fans.

    But this incident reveals one fact clearly. when you make a brief research about the religious comics about Muslims and Mohammed, you come across hundreds of them; and honestly I cannot remember this much reaction as we see and read for the couple of days. This shows that the tolerance of the two major religions against each other is decreasing. The fanatic Muslims got used to force the rest of the world who do not share their believes with terror including other Muslims like me. On the other hand, the European and US public are being educated with the highest sense of freedom without being told that the concept of freedom means totally different things around the world. The people from the western countries consider of speaking loud their thoughts as freedom whereas a girl in an Islamic country consider freedom as holding her boyfriends hand and walk freely on the street without being caught and judged for inappropriate behaviour. And please dont forget, the sources of our thoughts mainly come from the society we leave in, which we do not have the right to choose…Every single person on earth was born in some society without having any ideas, so do not judge people on the same platform…No one has the right to threat or kill no one; likewise no one should insult others on the belief for freedom.
    regards

  • Mario

    Someone’s trying to anger Moslem society? Indeed, who is that and what is he up to? When a delegation of Danish imams went to the Middle East to discuss the issue with senior officials etc, the imams distributed a booklet that showed not only the original 12 cartoons, but three extra ones. The newspaper Ekstra Bladet obtained a copy of the booklet and presented the three extra images on its Web site. Ita can be seen that these fraudulent anti-Mohammed depictions look like low-quality photocopies and are much more offensive (and rudely humorless) than the real ones published in Denmark. So now. The worse “insults” were made up by the grieving party. No genuine cultural conflict to begin with. You may draw you own cocnlusions.

  • Coke Zero Fan

    really short to american Mick 78…
    the elections already took place and BUSH WON!!!! I guess you missed that….

  • Coke Zero Fan

    to american mick…

    the taliban did not do 9/11… US supported and trained militant were responsible and who were supposedly hiding in AFghanistan ( not that anyone got caught). what a coincidence that afghanistan also has a big strategic importance for oil pipelines hmmm…right and I guess Iraq also did 9/11 so they got punished too. No no no they got punished becasue of chemical weapons (which again nobody found) …terrorist attack…killing a 100,000 innocent Iraqis wiithout any reason sounds to me like an act of terrorism as well…hmmm…but right you call it an act of democracy and self protection…

  • abu selam

    Toابو سلام

    Thanks very
    Thanks very your letter is correct!
    you have said correctly I are with you!
    But western is waves animals became devil
    !!!!!!!!!!!Those understand that do not point you why? Because are animals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • ferhad

    Thanks you are right western one waves is animal become to live like pigs and then say which we to live a democracy to say we to live liberty that is cathedral of you or to say humanly, that is greets denies in Iraq {Abu qreib} has it seen which your Army made it that humanly?????????? You are dirty and dirty and dirtily!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have ground made dirty. You are wrong humans and you are correct devil devil your wives naked made and does not say to you that is democracy that is liberty to you point not who is your father is. You are feast humans you are correct devil

  • No Sympathy

    Muslim fanatics are okay with horrific depictions of Jews. The publication Al-Waton in Qatar had a cartoon of an machine gun shooting at an american plane writing out in bullet holes “A message to the White House”. There is a Star of David on the tail of the plane and a sign in the background saying Los Angeles.The publication Akhbar al-khalij from Bahrain has a cartoon depicting a Jewish man walking along with a baby impaled on a spear. Another arab publication showed a jewish man with the body of an ape and the caption reads “This is a Rabbi”. I can’t feel sorry for people who cry about the depiction of Mohammed when they have no respect for anybody elses religious symbols. And my understanding of the verse in the Quaran indictates Mohammed’s likeness can’t be duplicated because no one could reproduce his grandeur etc. Of course the fundamentalists take in literally that it isn’t to be reproduced AT ALL.

  • ferhad

    Oh of people democracy brings you in hell why follows it to democracy why follows your devil??????????????? Why your Mrs being naked???? who said their is itself naked a making Oh of people it says that to God has son, that is denies has your devil you so said to it to hell Schmeisst. But who hears of you it defends your devil

  • Jim

    Coke Zero Lover writes:

    “the bridge here is that those drawing insult several muslim people..which again is hard to understand but sadly true, in that momnet they are the person in the cartoo and feel insulted…and imsulting people does not fell under the freedom of speech right…”

    Yes, yes it does. Insulting people does indeed fall under the freedom of speech right, at least here in the United States where I live, breathe and exercise my freedoms.

  • An American Mick

    Can you not read, Coke Zero? You should read very carefully what one says before you make an ass out of yourself again.

  • Jim

    Ferhad / Abu Selam / Cristian / Graham,

    First of all, quit the ruse. It’s obvious from writing style and IP address that you are one and the same person.

    Second, your argument (as far as I can understand it) only makes sense if I share your religious perspective, since it is based in religious arguments rather than logical arguments. I don’t share your religious perspective, and I imagine very few people here do.

  • An American Mick

    Okay, let me be clearer about what I tried to say, Coke Zero.

    Before I do: I do not agree with Bush or his policies. I did not vote for him. I think he has violated a variety of laws, both here and abroad. The US did not train the 9/11 terrorists, nor did it fund or support them. We supported Bin Laden long ago, foolishly. We supported Saddam, too, just as foolishly.

    What the hell does any of that have to do with some Danish guy’s right to draw cartoons, or the resulting idiotic and inexcusible Islamic response? They’re burning embassies and calling for executions, for god’s sake! Nothing any Westerner has ever done or said can excuse the current Islamic outrage against decent people everywhere.

  • Abu selam

    ((((((((((((((((((Democracy is from devil)))))))))))))))))))

  • An American Mick

    Okay, okay, okay! Democracy is from the devil.

    If God condones burning embassies, executing cartoonists, and trying to scare everyone into agreeing with you, and if the devil condones all this democracy and free speech, then I’ll proudly say I’m from the devil, too!!!

    Happy now, abu, or whoever you are?

    I’m going to go pray to the devil now.

  • Abu selam

    I legend you to Amerikana and European Union your democracy is from devil, Like many innocent humans have you killed in America American Indiana and in Japan and Viet Nam and in Afghanistan and in Iraq, and which is your democracy (((((Islam is only correct one way is I calls you to truth))))) to when understands your that Islam the correct is

  • Abu selam

    You write caricatures on prophet Muhammed)))friede are with it, and you say that are that to liberty which one speak which one want, it that normally??? Answer me?? You are disbelieving humans on earth hears all me Islam is very strong!!!!!!!!!!

  • americangirl

    To Coke Zero Fan:

    You are incorrect. Calling facts facts is not fanaticism of “ultimatizem”, as you would put it. It is a factual matter that societies in which people lack the ability to criticize their government and talk and learn freely are societies in which people are easily oppressed, easily driven into economic and technological poverty, easily kept ignorant of the aspects of the world they need to know about to run their lives and society well. This is not an “ultimate view” any more than recognizing that 2+2=4 is an ultimate view. Your apparent view that everything is relative is much more of an absolutist, fundamentalist view, as it is unchecked by reality.

    My point is aside from your ad hominems about the Iraq war, my point is about your absolutist relativism. If you throw ethics out the window, you not only ignore the reality that certain social structures lead to oppression and misery and forced intellectual backwardness, you also ignore any grounds to say that death or murder, even for oil, is bad.

    You cannot sit on both sides of the fence this way. Either nothing is really bad, and so murder the same as charity, or some things are right and some things wrong (and maybe many others are mixtures or shades of gray).

    You say “The world is not America or Europe… When people want to argue with someone …espially people from uneducated socities you have tı know whom you are talking to….”

    I know the world is not all America and Europe, but I have known people from all over the world, and guess what? Human beings are human beings, we differ on some things, but we all bleed red, we all feel pain, we all want the best for our families and neighbors. When I’m talking about things as basic as the right to speech, I’m not going to condescend to people even if they are from uneducated societies. I’m going to treat them like equals and say, you know what, freedom of speech is necessary to prevent a cadre of tyrants from controling the information the rest of the people need to make decisions about what affects them and their families intellectually, economically, and politically.

    That freedom means that sometimes you hear hurtful things. However, if you are right, that won’t hurt your position, because you are then free to bring up the evidence that shows the hurtful things false – note Jim’s comments about how holocaust deniers are dealt with in the US.

    That’s the truth of the matter. And for people from “uneducated” societies, you can either judge this for yourself, or believe people like Coke Zero Fan who apparently thinks you too uneducated to be worth strong opinions on basic human rights (not that he wouldn’t scream like a banshee if he wasn’t allowed to wear a T-Shirt with words e liked in his own country)… all while advocating wiping out belief in the reality of good and evil, which, by the way, is an absolutely necessary groundwork for criticizing any war for oil.

  • Jim

    You know what I think, Abu Selam? I think overused parentheses are from the devil.

  • Abu selam

    I think which you devil

  • Coke Zero Fan

    to american girl…
    you again still missing the point…
    you aare stil talking about ETHÄ°CS… whose ethics…your own ethics…ethics are not the same for everyone…maybe for doctors or engineers who have a code of ethics…you again are only able to see facts from your own perspective…for me and you 2+2 might be 4 for others it isnt. People do not have to follow your ethics or western ethics…what are you talking about..you yourself are from a country where opinion is oprresses as well… think about it you can critizise the US government as much as you want but they still do what they want…the patriot act basically took away your civil rights but everybody is sleeping…because everybody is afraid..becasue the government manages so well to keep you full of fear from the evil moslems…..If someone is not on the same (education) level as you are then explaining things your way will not help them at all., and thats the problem…you hit the nail on the head..western people do not understand that their agumentation does nt mean anything to others..we expect tjose people to think like us..which is impossible at the momnet .. we have to think their way and guide them to our level…you could give the whole islamic world free rights to think…since many o fthem do not know how to read and write there will not be much to think about other than the stuff they get told from the muslim imams…you have to live by the facts and not by some tale you get told in America…you have no idea in what conditions people live around the world…the last thÅŸng they need is your freedom of speech…

  • Abu selam

    Who has head points who is the devil is!! Naturally you are bad humans on earth Oh loud you thinks that you are correct No no!!! Your men wools such as women its and your wives want to be like men, I thank her correct animals became! Man marries man and woman marries woman!!! What is that people??? Does their that find normally??? But animals are very better than you

  • Coke Zero Fan

    Abu isnt there any free translation side you could use…event the worst translation will be mor ehelpfu…..

  • ahmad- moslim

    first of all you think that if you draw pictures about mohamed and if you say somethings bad about him you will heart the moslims … fuck you.. yeh fuck you and fuck all newspapers that just want to be famouse .. mohamed is the hollyest man .. and you will never fond anyone like him.. the islam is the greatest and you see what happend when you treing paly whith the islam … so please shut your fuck up and dont open it or ….
    and your site will be closed soon by arab hackers..

  • ahmad- moslim

    Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war = Christianity :religion of war =

  • Coke Zero Fan

    wow..I guess thanks to ahmad the moslim everybody understands my points better

  • americangirl

    Coke Zero Fan said: “you aare stil talking about ETHÄ°CS… whose ethics…your own ethics…ethics are not the same for everyone…”

    Yes, basic ethics is what works to make decent civilized life possible. It is what allows people afford to marry, and to feed themselves and their children, and to ensure that they can use their potential and talent to make a decent living or to make lasting contributions to art and science, and to ensure that a few powerful people in government can’t enslave them, thereby using a citizen’s personal talents and potentials to merely enrich leaders who know nothing better in human life than the chemical power-rushes of an alpha male chimpanzee.

    Look, you cannot hold your disbelief of ethics without denying that most human beings are creative, family-loving flesh and blood that have certain basic interests, and who can be killed or starved or tortured or enslaved if things go wrong. Ethics in the political realm is what protects human beings and their interests from the behavior of tyrants in the throws of the most primitive, chimp-like aspects of their brains.

    People, even uneducated people in other countries, are not well-served by oppressive governments, not any more than we are, and it is in their own interests to know why, and to know the details of how oppression impacts their lives, prosperity, technological progress, and families. If you care for them, you don’t condescend – you have an honest argument between equals.

    Much as he often sounds like Time Cube guy, you would be better off listening to Abu Salem on some things, than to whatever gave you the idea that ethics is totally subjective, even in matters of vital checks on devolving toward oppressive government. In these matters, matters like free speech to keep information flowing, ethics is only subjective if the difference in value of a malnourished child vs. a nourished child, or a clean water supply vs. a contaminated water supply, or the like, are subjective.

    And on this subject if you want to know why I think the left is failing politically in the West, it is because it will never manage to have a productive discourse with the people supporting the right until it manages to start appealing to the right on grounds of good and evil. Saying you oppose a war but don’t believe in good and evil is impotent.

  • ahmad- moslim

    thats not important if you understand my points or not the important that you should know that the moslims are in every where and we will not forgive .. and soon you will not be able to see this site any more.. motherfucker ..

    … mohamed is the greatest…

  • An American Mick

    You see, Ahmad? It always has to be about threats. Why? Why are you so afraid, if your god is so great? That’s our point, exactly. Is your god made of threats and violence? I would never respect a god like that, so please don’t ever ask me to.

  • An American Mick

    …or should I say DEMAND that I respect him…

  • An American Mick

    Ahmad says:
    “Mohammed is the greatest. We will not forgive.” Fine words, oh man of religion.

  • Coke Zero Fan

    american girl…
    I give you simple example of subjective ethics…in the U.S. there are states who think its ethical to kill people becasue of crimes and other states dont do that..you dont have to look so far to see the subjectivity in the world…as you can see from the Iraq war enough people thought its ethical enough to kill 100,000 Iraqis for oil..democracy is a simple majority issue…in western european countries if a political party has 66% of seats ÅŸn the parlament it has to right to change all laws and rights…because law is subjective…before jesus it was an tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye…that was ethical…as you see ethics change sooo easily…ethics are a product of majority which can change in 50 years completely…if you think that until 1953 african american had to give up their seats for white people ( which again was ethical for a long time) you maybe see what I mean

  • Coke Zero Fan

    additionaly the human being is selfish first of all…ethics are based on the thought dont do others what you dont want them to do to you….you talk about ethics and peopl loving and stuff…the world is not a place like that…money rules the world…nothing else… 30,000children starve to death in your ethical world, where ther is much more food than anyone could eat, but as lıng as you can pay for it…yes the world is full of right andwrong and our way is the right one…sure….our way is the right one for us…the european nations and america are soo rich sinc ethey exploited the weak ones for centuries and enslaved them…because we were so ethically correct…because jesus announced his praises last week and not 2000 years ago…ethics are necessary tahts tru but for us and we can not use them so easily to judge behavior of other people…..

  • Jim

    Coke Zero Fan,

    Look, you’re using a lot of words to say one point. Let’s cut through it and get to the heart:

    I recognize that different people believe in different ethical systems in different places at different times.

    But here’s the point: Group A is telling Group B that Group B must live by the standards of Group A under threat of punishment.

    Group A is Militant Fundamentalist Islam
    Group B is Everybody Else

    By your own standards, Group A is the one that you should be having the problem with.

  • Coke Zero Fan

    Thats right my problem is with them but it will not be solved when group B does not know how it will deal with A and it refuses to understand them….get it …that is the heart of the problem…you can not solve a problem by refusing to understand the other side….

  • ahmad- moslim | IP: 84.109.94.105

    Ahmad – Moslim, I would think twice about trying to hack this site. There are a few surprises in store for you if you do.

    Also, it’s an illegal act, and our web site has tracked your history here at the site. That can be tracked back to the computer you used to send this threat. If we’re hacked, you’ll be brought in for questioning like the criminal that you are.

    Our goal here is not to hurt anyone. But, if you attack us, we will protect ourselves.

  • ahmad- moslim

    to Mick 108 : NOW YOU TALKING ABOUT THE THREATS… YOU KNOW MORE THAN ME THAT EVERY DAY YOUR LEADERS SAY THAT THEY SHOULD KILL THAT MOSLIM AND THEY SHOULD INVATE THIS MOSLIM CONTRY SO PLEASE DONT MAKE YOURSELF FOOL YOU KNOW THE WE ARE ALWAYS THE VICTEM .. I JUST WANT TO TILL YOU THAT YOUR CONTRY MAKE US VIOLENCE .. we never talk about any religion.. you are started ad thats to much and we cant still quiet..

  • Jim

    OK, CZF. If that’s what you’re saying, I am completely in agreement with you. I just don’t think that understanding a group means necessarily altering your behavior to suit that group.

  • ahmad- moslim

    115 : hhhhhh you realy making me laghing … so sure you now know where im from .
    by the way im not alone with that we are abig group you cant amagim how much work we do to hack your site … if you want us not hack your site so delete the pictures about mohamed and do not talk about him … if you dont … im not risbonsible after that …

    by the way your site ip is : 65.254.54.82 … and plesae close the “php” … my we hack you from it ….. hhhhhhhhhhhh

  • LTK

    OK
    Lets get something straight here the history of Christianity has been mared by stupid despotic people doing evil things. However if you read the Bible you’d see the big difference between Christianity and Islam. The fact is Jesus never
    went round invading people’s lands. One of the first acts of the founding father of Islam was to invade a Jewish Holly City now called Medina. Then when the Jews outside came to take back thier land they were branded in the romantisied history
    the religion as the evil ones. Moreover the birth of Islam in sub-sharaan Africa was by knife point or other form of subverssion

    The Koran itself even talks of killing non-believers, and if you know anything about the Book you’d know the later verses superceed the earlier one that talk of peace.

    Please don’t get me wrong I’m not calling Muslims bad, blood thirsty and so on. All I’m saying is lets put this into true prospective.

    There are countless Anti-semitic prints in the Arab press

    The fact is simply this Islam in many of the traditional Isalmic countries has be historically offered too much protection by the state, and now in a global world where freedonm is held top reign supreme many of the traditionalists can’t take it.
    This is why you have such an uproar.

    The fact is if the Danish and other media people were to back track on their actions not only will it give suckle to a quite frankly naive view of the world. But it will further fuel the continued rise of Neo-Nazism in Europe and conflict.
    So what do you want?

  • Wil

    IMO, Muslims are offended because they have to face the fact that people don’t view Mohammed as they want them do, nor do most of us desire to. Muslims in various countries in the middle east, and in ancient literature, have created images of Mohammed. But they have to face the fact that the non-Muslim world wants to critically analyze Mohammed, his alleged teachings from Allah, and the acts of his followers, they want to blow people up, which in the end convinces people, that you, or a lor of you are irrational, or insane.

    Could any critically thinking Muslim tell the rest of us what is wrong, thelogically speaking, with the opinions of the cartoon above? The author of the cartoon has it completely right: in trying to show glory to Allah, you actually defame Allah by making it all about Mohammed. if Islam is “the religion of peace” why do must the Muslims around the world so into violence? Why the bombs? Why are there are crowds carrying AK-47s? You say Allah is merciful and forgiving; yet one of the posters say Muslisms never forgive? Why do you keep bringing up the Inqusition and Andulusa, but not try to stop your fellow Muslims from committing genocide in the Sudan. Truly you have been blinded by lies and hypocrisy.

    AND PLEASE DO NOT NOT USE THE EXCUSE, with those that suicided bomb and commit genocide, that “they are not real muslims”. They are REAL muslims. And if their teaching is so bad, why doesn’t the average Muslim have the courage to call for reform? Why do not real muslims correct their teaching? Is not because in many parts of the Middle East, (especially Afghanistan) people mindlessly recite the Koran phonetically, while having no idea what they are saying, then they go the mullah, who will ‘teach” them? How do these Muslims know whether what the mullah says is right or not? Or whether they are being brainwashed and indocrinated for evil ends? How would you know? You can’t read and understand ancient Arabic!!!

    Here are some examples of images of Mohammed throughout history:

    http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

    Muslims should all read this book by Irshad Manji:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312327005/102-8750989-9720158?v=glance&n=283155

  • studentfromscotland

    Dear Ms. American Girl – I think you are right on. More level-headed perspective is needed on why we need to have standards to live together. That is why we have ethics at all.

  • An American Mick

    Ia ahmed! Anta ibn kelb. Qus ummak, wa maut l’ahlik. Nahna mu’azzimu min kulkum bijum’ah. And you damn well know exactly what I mean!

  • dr who: maar ze zijn allemaal in het vlaams! and you know what I mean. Hee, this is fun.

  • Mario

    As I pointed out at #82, the real “insults” were made up by the grieving party themseleves. No genuine cultural conflict to begin with. Yet they are still issuing threats and using violence. And now Coke Zero Fan says: “…you can not solve a problem by refusing to understand the other side….”. Fair enough. But – in the face of the above evidence – who is in fact refusing to understand what? Wake up!

  • An American Mick

    Hey, Ahmad. You say Moslems “always the victem (sic)”? What a freakin lot of shit. Tell me 3,000 innocent Americans in New York weren’t victims. We have been victimized by your ignorance long enough. Hell, why don’t you just come here and make me YOUR first victim?

    Look, all we are saying is that we have a right to speak our minds in our own free countries. If you can’t bear the thought of that, well, then just fuck off and leave us alone.

    If you really want to take vengeance, why don’t you just draw some really bad pictures of all of our leaders and Gods? Then we’d be even, wouldn’t we? Then maybe we could get along?

  • HareTrinity

    Abu selam; Actually, animals do pair up same-sex sometime.

    The most unnatural sexual practice in the world is celibacy.

  • Jim

    Ahmad writes: “by the way your site ip is : 65.254.54.82″

    Oh dearie, that’s a good bluff. Of course you know it isn’t our ip address at all. But you want to scare people into thinking you know it is. Oh dearie dear dear.

    Here’s a good tip: if you want to convince people that you’re part of a BIG GROUP OF NASTY HACKERS WITH SUPER SKILLS:

    1) Learn to spell first
    2) Talk about it AFTER YOU’VE DONE IT, rather than giving hours in advance so everyone can back shit up, which of course is what we’ve done, silly goose.

  • An American Mick

    Jim, I know this is off topic and all, but I gotta say, you’re the best!

  • Jim

    “Ahmad-Moslim,”

    How nice to know your service provider is based in Petach Tikva, an exclusively Israeli settlement.

    The following e-mail has been sent from a clean e-mail account to your internet service provider:

    Dear Bezeqint folks,

    I’m writing to inform you that an individual identifying himself as “ahmad- moslim” is threatening to use his internet connection at the IP address 84.109.94.105 in order to take down the website Irregular Times at irregulartimes.com. Please reference this web page to find the following threats:

    ====

    ahmad- moslim Says:
    February 4th, 2006 at 3:09 pm e
    first of all you think that if you draw pictures about mohamed and if you say somethings bad about him you will heart the moslims … fuck you.. yeh fuck you and fuck all newspapers that just want to be famouse .. mohamed is the hollyest man .. and you will never fond anyone like him.. the islam is the greatest and you see what happend when you treing paly whith the islam … so please shut your fuck up and dont open it or ….
    and your site will be closed soon by arab hackers.

    ======

    ahmad- moslim Says:
    February 4th, 2006 at 3:49 pm e
    thats not important if you understand my points or not the important that you should know that the moslims are in every where and we will not forgive .. and soon you will not be able to see this site any more.. motherfucker ..
    … mohamed is the greatest…

    =====

    ahmad- moslim Says:
    February 4th, 2006 at 5:54 pm e
    115 : hhhhhh you realy making me laghing … so sure you now know where im from .
    by the way im not alone with that we are abig group you cant amagim how much work we do to hack your site … if you want us not hack your site so delete the pictures about mohamed and do not talk about him … if you dont … im not risbonsible after that …
    by the way your site ip is : 65.254.54.82 … and plesae close the “php” … my we hack you from it ….. hhhhhhhhhhhh

    =====

    Thank you for your attention to this matter.

    I understand the Israelis are not at all understanding about this sort of thing. Enjoy your transgressive identity experiment for now; your Mom will probably have the Internet connection cut off to your bedroom by the time you get home from high school tomorrow. Then you’ll have to type in threats from your cousin Yitzhak’s laptop.

    Bye now, “Ahmad-Moslim.” It was fun.

  • An American Mick

    Ahmed’s a little Israeli kid? No sh*t! Wow.

  • Attila

    Malejkum sala!

    I don’t understand what are these muslims bragging about! If the religion is so good and great how the hell they still live in crap! Oh, if you don’t teach anything to your children you will be able to control him, but most likely he will not able to make his life better! I dated a few girls from around there and I noticed they will never say: I am Iranian or from Saudi Arabia, they will say they are Persian! Persians are gone, just like the romans or the Celts, the truth is that most the the science from the middle east and the worthy knowledge (mathematics) came way before the prophet showed up. I don’t like organized religion, I think people should know more in the 21st century then to follow something somebody brainstormed out a thousand year ago.
    I also would like to see any miracles or anything God did in the past 2000 years. “Oh no, you don’t see that God is there , but he is there! ” I think these people think of God like that little kid who plays with the ants: If you go over the edge I will stump you with my finger! So it’s follow God’s rules, we just need to find somebody who will tell us the rules!
    Stupid!
    But if that’s what they want, that’s what they get! Ok, they can copy and use the Kalaskikovs and TNT rolls, but they are only dangerous, because they are undereducated and they don’t treasure their own life. They can copy something or manipulate idiots, but that’s not going to take them further or make them more civilized.

  • Layla

    I don’t understand how the pictures in the Danish newspaper are bad. Some pictures on the internet are very bad, but I don’t understand the problem with the Danish pictures. Can someone Moslem explain this?

    I think everyone went to the mosque on friday and someone said the pictures are bad, the same way they told us Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.

    What do the Moslems think is the meaning of the pictures? That Islam is a religion of violence? Is it true Islam is violent? Then why don’t they say it is not true, instead of saying they will kill people. Are the Danish pictures true?

  • Danish

    First of all, i am a danish citizen who stumbled into this page while reading the news, and i have a few comments: 26: Logic Says “There’s nothing wrong with depicting Muhammad in ANY way. That’s what I think. But then again, why is it CRIMINAL to deny Holocust? You can’t wear Svestica on your T-Shirt.” – I personally think that there IS something wrong in depicting Muhammad, if it offends people in general, but the drawings in the newspaper was pretty decent by skandinavian standards, and the reason for the paper to publish them in the first place, was because an auther of a childrens book about Muhammad where complaining that no artist would make any pictures for his book and put their name under it…..come on, a childrens book! then the newspaper JyllandsPosten, a morning paper, published 12 drawings from a few artists, as a reaction to that NO DANISH ARTIST would make any drawing of the prophet and sign it (maybe they where afraid of the response upon themselves). A couple of months went by, and then the rage began (looks like it was started by some people visiting the middle east with some nasty drawings in their portfolio). Look what the paper printed after the response: http://www.jp.dk/english_news/tema:fid=11324/ its in english. And now we suddently have a problem i Syria because someone in denmark has been screaming that this saturday people in denmark would gather and burn the quran in public. (ofcourse nobody did anything stupid like that…), but look at the news from Syria, im hmmmm….happy to be in denmark and not the middle a.. ups east. By the way, it IS legal in denmark to deny Holocust and/or wear a t-shirt with Svetica on it, but only 1-10 people in denmark are THAT stupid, and the rest of the population in denmark (app. 5 million) tend to tell them that they should get a life.

  • Angshuman Datta

    Its nothing except an sheer state of identity crisis of mohammad created by hypocratic and illiterate followers. The educated clan from the Islamic society should guide the rest and enlighten.

  • Abu selam

    To HareTrinity

    You are animals
    I legend you your democracy man marries man and woman marries woman and your wives make themselves it naked like a devil! Is the not dirty??? Is the not dirty??? Is the not dirty??? Is the not dirty??? Is that does not shit???? And you make dirty one films ((animals Fucken your wives)) in film HareTrinity haste you belong you you find normal point you why? because you are animals!! because you want like animals lives!!

  • Abu selam

    You are however like Tollet whom one that dirtily along-plays stinks becomes more and more you are it stinks also in such a way more and more and more

    ((((((((((((((((((shit is your democracy)))))))))))))))
    ((((((((((((((((((((shit is your liberty)))))))))))))))
    (((((((((((((((you are denying on this earth)))))))))))

  • Sandro

    To Abu Selam

    I am also with your opinion

  • no god but allah is one god and mohammed his a MESSENGER VIVA ESLAM

  • لا اله الأ الله محمد رسول الله

  • يا حبيبى يا محمد يا أشرف الخلق حسبى الله ونعم الوكيل فيكم يا كفرة سيدى محمد أشرف الخلق Ùˆ أطهر البشر اللهم صلى وسلم Ùˆ بارك على أشرف الخلق محمد صلى الله علية وسلم ( أستيقظ يا مسلم أستيقظ يا أخى فى الأسلام حال ا لأمة فى هبوط Ùˆ لكن النصر للأسلام أولآ Ùˆ أخيرا يا مسلم رجأ أذ دخلت هذا الموقع الملعون فالتنصر الأسلام بآى مشاركة هدافة Ùˆ السلام عليكم يا أخوتى المسلمين واللعنة كل اللعنة على الكفرة Ùˆ المشركين)

  • Bjarne

    Try to look at ogrish.com Fanatic people are decapitaging people while they shouting : Alahhu Akbar

  • Bjarne

    If that is Islamic way of acting: Free us from Alah!!!!!!

  • Bjarne

    Sory my spelling im from Denmark.

  • أنا أرى أن الأراء كلها متوافقة بين هولاء الكفرة Ùˆ ذالك أن الصورز المسيئة لشخص الرسول الكريم محمد صلى الله علية وسلم ليست بهذا الحد من السوء لكن هل ترون يا كفرة أن من يدعو الى الله بصدق Ùˆ بروحة Ùˆ بحياتة يستحق هذة الأراء الشرسة يا حماة الديموقراطية أن النبى صلى الله علية وسلم أمر بطاعة الله Ùˆ Ùˆ بالوالدين أحسانا Ùˆ ليس بالعنف Ùˆ الأرهاب الذى خلقتة أنتم يا أعداء السلام عليكم لعنة الله العظمى

  • Jim

    Hey “Sandro,” of course you agree with “Abu Selam.” You’re the same person. Silly rabbit!

  • Zippy

    It is quite obvious that it is OK for the Islamic religion (not world) to make fun
    of other religeous groups but when the boot is on the other foot, all hell breaks
    loose.So much for tolerance and understanding. I personaly think that untill
    the Religions of the world stop trying to outdo each other and understand that God
    is God in whatever form or name, then nothing is going to get sorted.

  • Oh, my “wow” was for #145, whatever it says.

  • Zippy

    It should also be noted than not all Muslims are terrorists,but at the momemnt
    most terrorists are Muslim!!!

  • Bjarne

    The problem with Islam : Is that Shia and Sunni muslim ned to be united like the Christians has been reformed by Luther. Until that happens they will fight each others like they have done in Pakistan for many many years!!!!!!!

  • Bjarne

    Now they have come together (Shia and Sunni) to protest about som cartoon drawins, not because beliving on Allah!!

  • Abu selam

    امين يا اخا الاسلام

    انهم حيوانات يا اخي انهم ماتوا انهم اصبحوا شياطين

  • Bjarne

    Hvad fanden siger du Abu selam du er en idiot.

  • Abu selam

    (((((((((((((((((America is devil))))))))))))))))))))
    Oh of animals
    Oh of pigs
    Oh dirty humans
    Oh shit loud

  • Abu selam

    To Bjarne

    Are you devil??

  • Bjarne

    Okay Abu selam but im Danish,and at the moment fanatic ignorant muslim people are burning Danish Embassy because some drawings, i think this people are devil and animals.

  • Abu selam

    You lie which you say point you why? Because animal people and devil are those how devil are your wives make film with men sexel and Live one is that humanly??????????? No that is animal no animals is 100 times better than you!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Abu selam

    I ask you which am dog animals? Why your wives make film with dog Sexele!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is human??????????????? Shit for you you are dirty animals

  • Abu selam

    Dog is not animals?????

    Why your wives make film with dog Sexele!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is human??????????????? Shit for you you are dirty animals

  • Abu selam

    You are criminals!!
    You are terrorists!!
    !!!!You killed millions of humans and you have this earth dirtily made you are devil!!!!

  • Bjarne

    No comment to Abu salem : igorant stupid man!!!!

  • Abu selam

    To Jim

    You animals!
    That formerly away to paradies can be done is away of prophet (Mohammed)

  • Abu selam

    You are cathedrals!!!!!!

    If their truth hears then leaves it !!!!!!!!!!Because you are devil because of!!!!!!!!!!!!
    !!!!!!!!!!!Thus animals know each other they out!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Abu selam

    To Bjarne

    You stupid “Bjarne”
    devil you

  • Bjarne

    No comment to Abu salem : ignorant stupid boy!!!

  • Kent

    Anyone watching the news today would’ve seen imams trying to stop the riots in Beirut today.
    They’d have heard muftis (comparable to bishops in Christianity) of Syria and Palestine condemning the riots.
    They’d have known that rioters in Palestine have been arrested.
    They’d have heard President Karzai of Afghanistan calling for the Muslim society to unite and fight this war on words bot by bombs.
    “This has nothing to do with Islam at all … Destabilising security and vandalism give a wrong image of Islam. Prophet Mohammad cannot be defended this way”, was the reaction of Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora
    “Overreactions surpassing the limits of peaceful democratic acts … are dangerous and detrimental to the efforts to defend the legitimate case of the Muslim world.”
    Statement from the Organisation of the Islamic Conference
    “What we say to Muslims is that we must not at this time stoop to the level of those who want to resort to insulting the prophet of Islam as a terrorist. We should engage in peaceful, responsible protest.”
    Haji Mustafa, a representative of Muslim group, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, conveys his dismay at Muslims threatening Westerners with violence during a demonstration in London.

    Seems like the drawings could result in less violence. Seem likes Muslim leaders are realising the road of violence will fulfill the prophecies of the cartoons. Seems like a door to dialogue is being opened by cartoon that Bush and Al-Quaida could never open through a thousand wars. Could this be the outcome?

  • Deddy

    Since Mr. Selam has already finished discrediting himself, his faith, and brought the level of this discussion to pre-grade school levels, now is a good time as any to let loose the devistating rhertorical wit that had them cowering back in 1st grade.

    Abu selam:

    I know you are, but what am I?

    ———-

    (I was going to start with some “mother wears army boots”, but figure with this one, I can just keep pasting.)

  • SALMAN

    My Dear Friends,

    I regretted reading this website. Why? I spent a lot of frigging time over a discussion which will not:

    1. help anyone not having enough food to eat,
    2. stop blood that is still flowing from all the different places in the world because of a so called liberation, democracy, greed and hatred,
    3. relieve people stricken with diseases and illnesses that can really be cured or avoided if we really worked hard at it,
    4. prevent US from blaming EACH OTHER,
    5. END.

    It is only week 5 of 2006, we are already fighting, so much for freedom in any form.

  • Jake

    Islam is a religion of peace… elaborate further and add that you can have all the girls, ladies, woman, & all the things you want if you kill the enemy of the muslim world, watch out…i’ve read it over and over again…I think this is about their “HOLY WAR – JIHAD” now i don’t understand.

  • Kent

    Well said, Salman

    Maybe Mr. Selam does not agree with Salman? And a growing number of Muslim leaders?

    Mr. Selam?

  • Mallad

    If God is good, he would laugh now and say “Silly people, why do they never learn.”. It’s a cartoon, have a laugh.

  • mini

    The situation reminds me of the story – 2 cats fighting over a piece of bread and a monkey comes and grabs it. Now there r so many monkeys around so it shud not b hard 2 imagine the end. It is an endless game until v reform the cats and cage the monkeys. Reform is not in the genes of cats as they r famous for their delinquencies. Monkeys r opportunists who ape/copy from high pedestals but never have courage 2 confront directly. Only A MASTER will come and bring peace and justice 2 this social order. But I know one thing, i m neither a cat nor a monkey but a liberal/self respecting omnivore who will eat according 2 the situation and availability. Flexibility makes survival possible and rigidity makes possible the EXTINCTION.

  • ahmad- moslim

    hhhhhhhhhh in fact all of you realy make me laghing all the time ..
    if you think your self klever to send the company that i realy dont heare about it before … hhhhhh im geting die because i will laghe all the week about you … you think that im will be so stubed to let you knoe my ip so easy ?? fuck you … you are abig fool .. go sleep dog… however you said that you respect the people openione right !! and every thing is free !! so lits me talk what i want stubids and big layers …….

  • Bjarne

    The whole day every 30 minutes there been news about the Islam conflict. At the moment there is a discussion on Danish TV, and the muslims only talk about them self and their ideals. Muslims cant understand that there is people in Denmark and rest of the world, there dont belive in religion. Because according to theres faith ther is only one God, and if you dont belive in this God : youre nothing!!!!!!

  • Bjarne

    We live in the 2100th centery and not in the Middle Age!!!!!!!!

  • Jim

    Same provider, same town in Israel. Say hi to your cousin Yitzhak, and thank him for letting you use his laptop. I don’t have to say whether you’re stupid or not, “ahmad-moslim”. You speak for yourself.

  • Bjarne

    The drawings is only a match that ignite the fire of big problems in Middle East. Denmark is a small contry 5 million people, but now France and Germany , Holland and maybe U.S.A. in the problem and now is it big problems

  • Bjarne

    In fact U.S.A is afraid for the Muslim people and only think about money and not freedom they are pittyfull!!!!!!

  • Bjarne

    But now has American people no time to talk abut freedom, why. It is Superbowl time!!!!!!!!!!

  • Abu selam

    To Bjarne

    You stupid “Bjarne”
    devil you

  • Abu selam

    Oh of people democracy brings you in hell why follows it to democracy why follows your devil??????????????? Why your Mrs being naked???? who said their is itself naked a making Oh of people it says that to God has son, that is denies has your devil you so said to it to hell Schmeisst. But who hears of you it defends your devil

    (((((((((((((((((America is devil))))))))))))))))))))
    Oh of animals
    Oh of pigs
    Oh dirty humans
    Oh shit loud

  • An American Mick

    Bjarne,

    We’re enjoying our freedom to watch the Super Bowl instead of bickering with mindless boobs named Selam and Ahmad. It’s a good game so far. Don’t worry, though. We’ll be right back fighting for free speech everywhere when it’s over.

    I’ll have a beer for you, and two more for Denmark!

  • Bjarne

    I also watch Superbowl, thanks for the Beer.

  • An American Mick

    I want Pittsburg to win. How about you?

  • Fruktata

    Sorry, but I can’t agree with you. This is the most boring Superbowl I have ever seen. The Rolling Stones were just pathetic, displaying what football has become – bland corporate safe old Rock, with shouting and posing loudness without finesse.

    I see more posturing in this Super Bowl than skill. I can barely bring myself to watch it.

    And for this, we’re supposed to put free speech on hold? That’s the problem. There’s always sports, or sit coms, to keep people’s minds occupied, while the serious problems of the day go by the wayside.

    Tomorrow’s hearings on the NSA spying program against Americans? No, too tired from watching football.

  • Sword of Islam

    Wow, this ‘Abu selam’ character certainly likes his animal porn! I hope he finds himself a nice camel to settle down with – might make him a little more mellow!

  • Bjarne

    I think its a god game, Pittsberg is fine, and Rolling Stones has make music in 44 years, i think god Band.

  • An American Mick

    Oh, no, Fruktata. I’ll never be too tired to watch the NSA hearings closely. I pray our Senate has the courage to do something about Bush’s excesses. Nothing wrong with taking a little break for some sports, though, eh? Can’t be a full-throttle activist 100% of the time. I think free speech will survive a SuperBowl, if not very much longer than that. After all, I am writing this during the 4th quarter.

    Free speech will never be on hold. Our American forefathers fought long and hard to win our freedoms, and we still struggle constantly to maintain them. And from what I can see, most of the world has benefitted far more than it’s been hurt by the strength our freedoms has gained us.

    I have to agree with you on the Stones, though. Not impressed at all.

  • im muslim

    ok….
    i like 2 asking 2 all people above…..
    y chose islam…??
    y not cristian or budha or other religion
    y must islam…
    u know what is the answer…..!!!
    bcoz they jelous with islam
    we never disturb other religion
    if they all human they not do this
    am i right…..??
    ok how about if that cartoon’s not about islam but…….about ur religion
    what do u feel….WHAT NO FEELING OH MY GOD….
    R U HUMAN WITH RED BLOOD

  • Ralph

    Abu Selam,

    Here is what free speech means: It means you can come here and recite your poem “America is Devil”

    Oh of animals
    Oh of pigs
    Oh dirty humans
    Oh shit loud

    I like the last line very much. Very evocative. Thanks for sharing.

  • An American Mick

    Uh, im muslim, lots of things make me angry. I don’t go around burning buildings, kidnapping people, and calling for public beheadings and the cutting off of hands.

    The last thing you should be doing is trying to justify the actions of ignorant, impotent bullies who can’t stand another point of view and have no respect for human life.

    Or, in the words of one very wise man, “oh shit loud”.

  • Layla

    In the Middle East, you can see packages of Danish butter with a label “Lurpak” on the shelves of the smallest grocery. I hear that because of boycotts, the Saudis, and that means Our American President’s friends, will now have a lock on the Middle East dairy market. No wonder the President was so quick to come out against the Danish cartoons. No wonder everything broke loose on a Friday, as usual in the Middle East, after Friday mosque. No wonder the Moslems can’t tell us exactly why the cartoons are “insulting”. It’s not about religion at all. It’s about money.

    I have a lot of respect for the Danish government’s attitude towards Middle Eastern immigrants, much more than the U.S. policy. The Danish government welcomes and seeks out refugees who have been tortured or assaulted, and accepts entire families which few other countries will do. Unlike the U.S., they also accept educated refugees or refugees with special skills. On the down side, they say the refugees are not trained or assimulated, but are pretty much on the dole for the rest of their lives but at least they have the famed European health care and their basic needs will be met. when you think what a small country Denmark is, it is pretty remarkable.

    Hope you are enjoying a fine bottle of Carlsberg with your superbowl.

    Oh, yes, my grandfather came from Denmark. Mange Tak.

  • Anonymous

    fuck all the damish

  • Hey all, i would just like to say that this is “THE” most disgusting, most disrespectful insult i have ever come across being an Australian. First and foremost it is PROHIBITED (haram) in the religion on ISLAM to draw a picutre of any type wether it be animal or human. I would just like to know EXACTLY from which source you brouhght out such a false and insultive theory.

  • Safiea Y

    EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH NOT FREEDOM OF INSULT. TO ALL THOSE OUT THERE WHO ACTUALLY BACK THE DANISH COMICS ON THIS MATTER ARE NOW DUMBER THAN THE PERSON WHO CAME UP WITH THE ACTUAL IDEA. U BASICALLY JUST LOST UR SO-CALLED GOOD REPUTATION AND REPLACED IT WITH A FOREVER KNOWN BAD/WORSE REPUTATION.

  • Fruktata

    Safiea, you say, ” it is PROHIBITED (haram) in the religion on ISLAM to draw a picutre of any type wether it be animal or human.”

    So what? We’re not members of the Islamic religion. Are you saying that all human beings on Earth must bow to the laws of Islam, even if they aren’t Muslims?

    Crackpot.

  • Anonymous

    IAM REALLY ASHAMED OF THIS IMAGE FOR THE MUSLIM PEOPLE TO WHOM I BELONG, HOW IT COME
    THAT WE CAN’T EVEN WITHSAND A FEW DRAWINGS THAT WERE MADE BY AN IGNORENT
    PERSON AND OUR RESPONSE IS BY BURNING BULDINGS & DISTROYING PROPORTIES .

  • Anonymous

    Muslims will go to hell because they worship the devil.

    GOD BLESS ISRAEL !
    GOD BLESS AMERICA !

  • An American Mick

    Anonymous #199:

    Thank you for your voice of reason. If only there could be more of that to quell the rampage. You, personally, have nothing to be ashamed of.

  • Jigsaw

    http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

    Dear muslims, some of the pictures as you can see from this link are drawn by your own people. What did you do to them? Stoned them to death?

  • fuck u zionis israel,israel like a pig.america motherfucker

  • Jake

    There are so many blasphemous caricatures, books and movies against Christians too but we never reacted like Muslims do, burn embassies or burn houses or declare war… I have lived in the Mid-east for almost seven years and believe me racism exist in that part of the world too. Their standard of living is weight on your nationality, then religion, then race, just check on their salaries… Being a Muslim is never fair, but there are pure Islamist who despised their lost brothers (al qaida, safiea, abu selam, etc…) and they even prayed that someday these lost muslims will be educated on what really is to have a religion as Islam which is the religion of Peace.

  • Ask

    Hmm, being a soldier stationend in Iraq I have to say that the reactions of the muslim world have really troubled me. For the last 6 months we have had a good relationsship with the locals, but now – because of a few stupid comics the want to kill us… Im not saying that printing the gartoons was the right thing to do, but if you are a muslim living in Denmark you should live by danish rules instesad of trying to impose your rules on me. Gud bevare dronninen (to all of you that doesn’t speak danish; God save the Queen!)

  • Rock Doctor

    I find the matters relating to the cartoons of Mohammed very amusing. It does not surprise me that Muslims object to the caricature of of their relgion as violent, as most people do not like to have the life they have become familiar with critizized.

    Fear and mind control are the tools of religion – whether that be Muslim, Christian or Jew. If everyone were required to learn about the geology of the earth and concept of geologic time, life would be different.

    An objective person will recognize that Muslims represent a primitive culture. For those of you who have not traveled to a Muslim country consider this: they still wipe their asses with their left hand (no paper). But, I have not seen a cartoon about that…..yet!

  • Abu selam

    Demokratie + usa = Devil

  • Abu selam

    Oh of people democracy brings you in hell why follows it to democracy why follows your devil??????????????? Why your Mrs being naked???? who said their is itself naked a making Oh of people it says that to God has son, that is denies has your devil you so said to it to hell Schmeisst. But who hears of you it defends your devil

  • Abu selam

    I ask you which am dog animals? Why your wives make film with dog Sexele!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is human??????????????? Shit for you you are dirty animals

    I ask you Dog is not animals?????

    Why your wives make film with dog Sexele!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is human??????????????? Shit for you you are dirty animals

  • Kent

    Ask: I agree. They should comply with the Danish way of life when living in Denmark. Their Qu’ran tells them to. And most of them do. Only a few cause trouble but they ‘shit loud’. (thx for ur guidance, oh wise abu)

    Just like in the Middle East. Just like anywhere. Ok, two Danish representations were burned down but hundreds of demonstrations have been (fairly) peaceful. Let’s hope the cartoons won’t turn out to be true. Hmm… so far more Muslims than Westerners have been killed by Muslims….

  • Abu selam

    (((((((((((((Oh of animals you are dirty people))))))))))))))
    Devil
    Danimark = usa
    Demokratie

  • Jim

    Rock Doctor,

    As opposed to Americans, whose favorite food is ground up cow, contaminated with shit, on a bun? You can wash your hands. You can’t wash your stomach.

    Every society has elements that every other society finds distasteful. Don’t be so hasty to use that word “primitive.”

  • Abu selam

    You are criminals!!
    You are terrorists!!
    !!!!You killed millions of humans and you have this earth dirtily made you are devil!!!!

  • Josef

    What is the use of this uncultivated, vulgar, ignorant and futile discussion if not to complicate the already complicated and to express a short sightedness.

    There is nothing called ethical or cultural relativism as the majority is stating here, rather humans, –regardless to their affinities, faiths and beliefs– tend, if they REALLY understand the human nature, to share the same values. I am not referring to any religion.

    According to the relativist position no judgment could be passed upon the Nazis, the Kukluxclan, Alqaida… for their nonhuman deeds and hideous cruelties because of one reason, no absolute standard is universal nor can it be applied to this or that culture or group which has evolved in its own way with its own standards and values.

    In the same way, some people ask the Christians to keep their values and judgments to themselves and not to apply them on their culture. Still others ask the Muslims to keep their values and judgments to themselves and not to apply them on their culture. This goes on and on.
    What is this SPAGHETTI.

    Don’t we share universal human standards, emotions, desires, fears… Don’t we all criticize and condemn instinctively the torture and the killing of innocent people (as did Saddam to his kinsmen). Don’t we all enjoy watching a beautiful landscape. Aren’t we all humans endowed with a rational mind, a mind (if not prejudiced, narrow, or aberrant) is capable of freely thinking.
    You may think me over simplifying the matter. You are right, so long as you have a narrow perspective.
    You fellows, seemingly, don’t share the same definition of the concept ‘freedom’, and therefore the language you are using will be understood by no one. And you will reach nothing concrete and of importance except wasting your time and…

    Let’s try first to define the concept ‘freedom’.
    Is freedom universal, or is particular?

  • Ralph

    Josef,

    If there is no cultural relativism, how could the Nazis have done the things they did? Cultural relativism is not the denial of ethics. It’s the recognition of the clear fact that different cultures DO have different values.

    It’s a common claim that if people REALLY understood human nature, they would all converge on certain universal values. And wouldn’t you know it, those universal values often look a whole lot like the values peculiar to the person making the claim–who typically hasn’t stopped to ask what, if any, values that seem obvious and universal to him or her might, in fact, be culturally determined. This is a big source of the miscommunication you’re talking about: people who think MY values are THE values. That’s where intolerance comes from.

    For the Christian, obviously, THE values come from God, and are Christian. For the Muslim, they come through Mohammed. For the Confucian, they are found at the core of human nature. Obviously.

    As to your freedom question: is it particular or universal? I’m not sure if you’re asking what freedom IS, or what it SHOULD BE. If we assume a universal singular system of ethics, though, it’s a moot point. If a single values system really exists, surely anybody promoting values that run counter to it is attacking the freedom of individuals (who all “really” hold the universal values). Therefore protecting individual freedom would then entail the suppression of all but the orthodox values system. Furthermore, it would follow that any other values system, anywhere else in the world, that varied from this orthodoxy by so much as a single minor detail should be wiped from the face of the earth in order to, you know, defend freedom.

    Sound like anyone we know?

  • Regardless whether you tag them with “fanatics” or “fundamentalists” or whatever, whose faith advocates the killing of anyone and everyone who does not subscribe to that faith? Muslims. Whose faith continues to brutally murder others in the name of their god simply because of where that person comes from or their own beliefs however peaceful they may be? Muslims. Who is in a violent murderous uproar over a cartoon when other faiths, religions, and deities have been portrayed far worse and more often? Muslims. Regardless of what Jim says, who is it that does not stand up against injustices and crimes unless of course it is against them? Muslims. I do not feel that EVERY muslim is a terrorist, but you will not hear any muslim denounce that violence publicly because that would be to stand against your own quran which demands death for all others. I’ve never heard a muslim say “I am muslim but don’t believe in all parts of the quran”. The whole uproar over a cartoon is just another reason that these people will take advantage of to further their violent and murderous behavior. They will now continue to look for things that they can use to their advantage by saying muslims are persecuted against to rationalize their otherwise irrational behavior. The alternative is for them to admit openly that the book they use to live by (quran) demands that they kill everyone who does not subscribe to islam. They won’t do that until theyve exhausted all other means/reasons to kill others in the name of allah.
    I do not agree with all the things the U.S or Christians have done or do currently, but should my government or leaders of my faith ever advocate the murdering of others because of their faith, I will stand against them, unlike the muslims of this country who claim to love it.

  • Wow. Dude you are so wrong.

    For the Christian, obviously, THE values come from God, and are Christian. For the Muslim, they come through Mohammed. For the Confucian, they are found at the core of human nature. Obviously.

    Muslims believe in ONE god. Mohammad is just a prophet. To us, Jesus, Mohammad, Abraham, they are just messengers. To all you red necks who just talk shit and make up lies, dont make up things about Mohammad having 10 wives and muslims converting during war. Im sure you probably work in a burger king and just talk shit. Please look into the history first, or actually read the verse you are quoting from. The quote from the quran is this
    [Quran : 2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. So, how about you stop fucking with other peoples religion and calm down. If the gays want to practice homosexuality and go to hell, its no ones job to tell them not too. People need to stop lying and start trying to build a better world instead of doing stupid violent things. I thin burning embassies is fucking retarted. I personally want to beat the fuck outa Saddam Hussein cause he used bio weapons on Iran. Im from Iran, and i hate the government. And i am an American

  • Lars, Dane

    We are Sorry
    We are sorry
    We are sorry
    We will change our ways and turn to Allah, my he see in mercy on us
    We will change the name of Arla Food to Abdulla Food
    We will pray 5 times a day and turn our unworthy head to Mekka
    …..
    …..
    …..

    Naaaa,don’t think so. I rather jump in the longboat and head south with my axe.

  • To “Liberal Muslim”
    How can Jesus and Muhammed be “messengers” from the same god but have such different messages? How can you believe Jesus to be a “messenger” or prophet from your god when he preaches peace and love yet islam does not appear to be a faith of peace or love?

  • Alp

    hah. Someone has tried to warn me talking about nukes regarding my previous post. Funny. Regarding what you are saying about moslems being intolerant.

    The council from Denmark, showing the 15 cartoons to some organizations was talked about, and the provocation coming from the moslems themselves was mentioned. How can one know one that is provoking is from the side that is provoked ?

    You may mumble about freedom regarding some silly cartoons by the way, the point on my post is missed, the thing is not just a cartoon, sure there had been some drawings previously, and the response was not so harsh, not only because the time was a time of intolerancy which was mentioned in another post, but also the act was organized. It is not just a cartoon published on a local newspaper, it was publishing organized on many countries of EU.

    The people threatening with guns, are the Palestanians as I have seen so far, who are constantly in war, being killed by Jewish, most of whom know nothing better than to defend themselves by force. What reaction could you wait to see from them ? These people are dying, and that is the act they have to play.

    The play has been set up. You will go on mumbling about freedom of speech blah blah like you mumbled about Iraqian peoples freedom of the Saddam rulership, that the people of Iraq would never prefer to be replaced by a 3rd party – hah the name suits- interference, and the Taliban regime in Afganistan being a burden on their citizens, that the people had elected, as if these was you business, now you are mumbling about being free to make jokes about something which moslems do not want to be joked about.

    Constantly in the name of freedom and all good things – hah- you do keep on messing with the moslem world. At the present, Iran is a place to be controlled as they have nuclear studies, syria is a place to be controlled, as they resemble a terrorist scheme, libya is getting restless. Still no word for Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, UAE, Pakistan but the ideas of freedom are on their way I guess. (Cyprus and Eastern Anatolia is being worked on though :) The subjects are being worked hard.)

    The act is against this scheme, not against a few nongifted cartooners who are trying to make some living by trying to mock the prophet, but the countries that are promoting and provoking them, as a part of pression on moslem society, as part of the scheme that is directed at making the whole non moslem world “understand” that moslems are a part of a religion, whose members may not be considered as humans, but savage beasts indeed (as the crusaders occupied jerusalem, and by the time the spanish occupied the america, vatican declared that Indians (America Continent locals, not the Indians), and on the other case, declared that moslems in jerusalem, may not be considered as human beings so that their flesh could be eaten in time of hunger) and as savage beasts do not understand anything but power, as what hitler thought for jews was that it was extremely important to extinguish every jewish human life, it can be possible for any civilized western force can occupy their country or kill their people for the sake of profit or more legally named as “freedom”.

    This is a tiny step, aimed at provoking moslems and making the world see that how ugly beasts moslems are. And see, they can even be furried by a few “cartoonists”. These people are doing everything to make the situation seem so important and so freedom-centered so that no rightous thinking non moslem can think of the situation as a provocation and insult to Islam. It is not a difficult deed indeed, as it is very difficult for non moslems to understand the importance of issues about Islam’s importance to the moslems (maybe jews can, I dont know) as the christianity has gone through a renaissence that provided them the view to seperate religion and “freedom”. The things does not work like that in the moslem society, we never did have such a strict rulership and a class made of religion-workers, so we did not need no renaissence, and furthermore, we did not need to have “freedom” about mocking with religional aspects as we did not have to defeat any religional class, trying to achieve rulership over the society. Shortly, it is not easy for a christian to understand a moslems feelings about the situation. (By the way, moslem belief has gone through a degradetion since the beginning of the 20th century by the help of western countries, but people who are affected most do not consider them as moslems or do not want to group themselves with the same group of moslems that the more-believers are a part of, which mainly are in countries that are closer to the western – may be geographically or relationally.)

    Too much words for people who are not willing to listen or think.

    ps. The vulgar kids attacking around in the name of Islam on the internet, which are present here, are just kids who are angry, but still kids, so please do not consider people swearing everywhere on this post as an intellectual or active and highly respected part of the moslem society.

  • Alp

    To “Liberal Muslim”
    How can Jesus and Muhammed be “messengers” from the same god but have such different messages? How can you believe Jesus to be a “messenger” or prophet from your god when he preaches peace and love yet islam does not appear to be a faith of peace or love?

    Quran tells that Jesus’s message is not the one the councils have gathered after centuries of his death. As you know, bible has many versions, (had could me the more appropriate verb) and the one you are practicing on is not his real teachings, being able to reach the god only via a priest or something. We believe that as in Islam, in true Christiandom, god can be reached by everyone, and god is everywhere. The messages are not different, thinking of what moslems believe in.

    Christianity being a religion of peace and love, I will laugh at this sentence or belief, as in the most religious days of europe in the middle ages, pope had supported Hitler as he was the sign of christianity battling Russia as it was the dark force of communism and infidelship. You may try to fool yourself with such words, but your religion is not all about peace and love, at least the way you percieve it.

    Islam being the religion of war, is a lie. It is thought us that even animals should have their rights on us on the doomsday, and we shall face with them, and be punished for our bad doings to them. True moslem should never be unjust to any living, besides people.

  • To Alp,
    I’ve read the King James & New King James version and the NIV bibles and have never seen where Jesue preached anything but love and peace. Can the same be said of Muhammed? It is not “perceived” as you state because I can read it in print. As I’ve said before, I do not condone many things that were done by Christians or by my government and will not pass off violence in the name of Jesus off as angry kids. I also know of no Christians in the past 100 years that have beheaded innocent people in the name of their God. Conversely, it happens in this day and age and I’ve yet to hear a muslim stand against that kind of behavior. You can deflect any logic you want by bring up the dark ages, crusades, etc. but it does not change the fact that islam is a religion of intimidation and terror as evidenced by the “angry” kids who hold up weapons and pictures of the Sears tower stating they cannot wait to be the next Osama BinLaden. As you hold all Christians responsible for the acts of the past (crusades, etc.) should you also then be held responsible for your faiths current transgressions?
    By bringing up the past injustices perpetrated by Christians you just proved my earlier point that in order to justify violent behavior, muslims will always bring up the past to deflect what is really going on, and that is the sytematic elimination of any persons or cultures that do not subscribe to islam. I’ve yet to hear or see any muslim denounce the removing of a live persons head let alone the world trade tower tragedy that killed thousand of innocent people.
    So I ask, why are muslims so quiet when it comes to the kidnapping and killing of aid workers? It is no coincidence that the terrorist acts all over the world (Bali, Spain, U.S., etc.) have all been committed by muslims. Just because you are not the one out there committing these acts does not make you innocent if it is your own brothers and sisters in your faith perpetrating thses acts and you remain silent about it.
    Again, as stated earlier, you will not denounce these acts because it would be to denounce your quran which advocates violence.

  • Jim

    “Besides people.” That’s a good escape clause, Alp. Very handy for you.

    But Johnny Logic, we could turn your logic around and ask why Americans are so quiet when their own president estimates that more than 30,000 Iraqis have been killed by U.S. forces, many of them wholly innocent.

    We’re all culpable.

  • Jim, agreed that there have been many innocent Iraqis killed due to this war. I’ve already said I don’t agree with all that my governmenet does and there are thousands of Americans who protest this war and the Bush administration because of it. For that reason I don’t agree with your statement implying “Americans are so quiet. Conversely, where are the muslims of the world when hundreds of innocent commuters are killed by bombings in Bali and Spain?

  • Alp

    Jim, I may have not expressed the verse like I mentioned to. English is not my main language, so do not bother to find any such expressions and mock them, it is not challenging, it is easy to find such cute “symptoms for disease” for one.

    Johnny Logic, if youve read what Ive written, I also mentioned vatican supporting Hitler against russia and letting him kill jews. The point was not telling you that “you’ve made us suffer in the past, you deserve it.” the point is, no matter how you define your religion, people may percieve it differently at different times. You say that it is not percieved but written ? Hah. Everything is not written, one has to decide and apply sometimes, as all religions do, as the need appears on different situations.

    Osama bin Laden, is your doing. As far as I know, his family is a partner of George W. Bush. I have not met a moslem that approves 9/11 or thinks that moslems have done it. We refuse such acts. Believe it we do. Like I wrote before, look who profited from the events after the assault and youll understand the one ordering it.

    All of the terrorist acts are from the moslems ? Thats a lie. Look at south america, look at russia, england, us, turkey, lebanon etc. You only see what you want to. Someone is stirring the place, and that someone is not the moslems, because it will not make any profit for us! 9/11 could not, London bombings could not, bombing on London embassy, jewish temple, sudan embassy, bali etc etc. I hope that you are not as innocent as to believe that every moslem around is planning an evil scheme to blow up some place to show the world that moslems rock.
    And Johnny Logic, as for the sentence you require to be relieved off your load, I and biggest moslem societies damn terror and killing innocent people, as my religion does. if these are the doings of some evil or misleaded moslem(though I do not consider them as), feeling I have for them is hatred.

    The international politics just dont work like that.

    Look at it as a whole, please do. It is not the doing of some maniacs, the events only resulted in making excuses for some powers to press on the moslem world. The originating action could have started from US, Israel or some related capitalist organization, because they are the ones gaining profits, by making commercial moves into this “dangerous” zones, securing them for themselves.

    Northern iraq is now under the mercy of Kurds who are now a strong ally for americans that are securing the oil wells at mosoul.

    About cartoons being just harmless, remember what I wrote about the isolation scheme of the moslem world,

    A lot of countries have joined the publishing of the cartoons and are uniting against the “ignorant” society of moslems, a lot of publications and columns about foolish moslem reaction.

    They are building camps, not only their side, but also the opposition.
    Moslems vs Christians & Jews , that is to be named as.

    That should not trigger a war, of course, but as I stated, it is one step towards.

    I am waiting for the day for russia, china and maybe india to make supportive declarations for the moslems.Do remember about this post, if you hear it. Someone does not like the maps as it is. and someother one will not let this one to have what it wants.

    And you still talk of my religion, your religion, youre this, youre that.
    There are a lot of pawns, but just one player. Let him move you, I do not expect otherwise.

  • # Johny Logic Says:
    February 6th, 2006 at 6:04 pm

    To “Liberal Muslim”
    How can Jesus and Muhammed be “messengers” from the same god but have such different messages? How can you believe Jesus to be a “messenger” or prophet from your god when he preaches peace and love yet islam does not appear to be a faith of peace or love?

    First of all, read my name. If all muslims were extremist murderers and killers, 1.3 billion ppl would be reaking havoc on this world. You have to actually read the Quran to understand dude. Ive read the bible. My parents did not force me into any religion. I chose my religion, and after looking over Judaismm, Christianity, and Islam, I chose Islam. Who knows, I could change to another religion. The thing is, I believe there is a God, but nothing else. How can you say islam is a religion of war and hate? I believe that God sent Jesus, Mohammad, etc. as normal ppl to preach his word. Also, I believe in the same God as you, so do not say “my God”. I chose Islam as my religion because I believe that Judaism and Christianity are not the same as they were before. There are too many versions and Islam is a revised version of them. Islam has never changed. I dont think anyone not of my religion is going to hell. [Quran : 2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
    If you are christian or Jew, you can be considered a muslim according to the Quran if you follow the 3 rules. I do not think you understand my view. I dont care about every other muslim in the world. I dont think that a terrorist is going to heaven. You have not read the Quran so dont judge that it is not a religion of peace or love. I think you watch too much biased news. By the way, Khomeini, a former muslim extremists and dictator of Iran killed my aunt. When he came to power he killed thousands of innocent muslim citizens. Obviously, I do not support him or the Iranian government. If only there was seperation of church and state in Middle Eastern Countries.

  • An American Mick

    I for one just can not grasp how our government thinks for one minute that Moslems anywhere want to be free of their Saddams and embrace the freedoms we cherish. Why can they not see the unconscionable waste of our resources in that pursuit? Better yet, why do any of us accept for one minute that that’s really the reason we’re there?

    These people do not want democracy any more than we want to be Moslem.

    Mohammed was a fine warrior who united a fractious and contentious people, however briefly, when they needed it most. The day he died they divided over who should have taken his place, and they’ve been killing each other over that single issue ever since. They are no more ready for democracy now than they were then.

    If we had any sense, we’d leave them to it and quadruple our efforts to develop the alternative fuels that would free us from our dependence on a precious resource Moslems happen to control.

    Perhaps that would make Abu happy and not shit so loud.

  • unknown guest

    please, dont show it again. the cartoons that is showed are lied.

  • drossco

    It’s time for thinking humans who are not saddled with all this religious baggage to take over the world.
    Kill all these faithful goofballs.

  • drossco, thinking humans do not kill people just for disagreeing with them. If you sincerely believe what you just said, you’re as nutty as the most nutty religious believers of them all.

  • Mark Lavarre

    The Mohammed cartoons reveal the hypocrisy of the west. Imagine any newspaper in Europe or America publishing negative photos of Anne Frank and you can clearly realize what would happen. 1) In Europe the creators of the drawings would be brought to court and given a heavy fine or else a prison term of at least 3-4 years. In America the whole newspaper would be put out of business by Jewish advertising boycotts.

    There is a double standard in the west and it is one which treats the Jews as the most special/sacred group of people on Earth.

  • Alp, how can you imply that the jews or the west orchestrated 9/11 or any other terrorist acts that were actually carried out by muslims as the overwhelming majority of the hijackers were saudi’s? You are the one that is deceived. It is another deflection tactic to place blame on who you have no regard for rather than face the evidence. Weak.

    Liberal, I cannot emphasize enough that you and I do not share the same god. I do not worship, praise, or otherwise hold in any regard allah the moon god as you do. However, I am sorry about your aunt. I am also sorry you have been so deceived by others of the muslim faith. Do you really believe that a martyr is rewarded with virgins in heaven?

  • Mark, you speak of hypocrisy and I agree, there are many forms of it in many places, but to compare an economic boycott that destroys a business with the killing of those that offend you is insane. Here in America you can say and display what you want as evidenced by the various art exhibits that have mutiliated the image of Jesus. Having freedom of speech and expression is guaranteed, making a living offending others is not. So if you choose to offend, be prepared to lose that entities business. That is fair. To lose your life for offending someone is just not acceptable.

  • Mario

    #222 Johny Logic: “I’ve read the King James & New King James version and the NIV bibles and have never seen where Jesue preached anything but love and peace.”
    Then read it again: Luke 14:23: “Compel them in”. This passage has ben explicitly quoted by St Augustine (letters), St.Thomas of Aquino (Summa Theologica) and many other fathers and doctors of the churh to justify the widespread oppression, detention, torture and murder of apostates, herethics and “offensive” infidels.
    The fact is, my friend, that today’s brutish Muslim fundamentalists are much like what Christians used to be. You are right that on the whole Christians have stopped being beastly some 150 years ago. But the point is: what stopped them? The temporal power of the Roman popes – with attendant Inquisition and the rest – was destroyed on 20 Sept. 1870 by the cannonades of the Italian bersaglieri. As an Italian borne in Rome, I owe my personal freedom to just that.
    More generally, the West owes its freedom and democracy to the legally enforced separation between Church and State: an Enlightenment idea which had to be fought for, at the price of much blood. Today’s fanatic Muslims present just the same sort of problem, from a quite similar tradition. So remember: those who forget the lessons of history are bound to learn them again, the hard way. So long.

  • Anyone

    I suppose society will always dependent on such. There is always a reason for 2 sides of a coin for example. I feel that in whatever point of view we are looking at, we would tentatively offend someone else. My opinion lies in the fact that at the end of the day, people are still too caught up with viewpoints, beliefs, etc. No doubt we all need these to support ourselves, but at the cost of lives again is not very wise. Everyone strives to fulfil their basic needs, but why have people manifested their needs into beliefs, viewpoints, etc, when it clearly doesn’t serve its full purpose there?

    Prideful are we. Egotiscal we behave. Senseless we’ve become.

  • Has Johny Logic never read the Gospel of Matthew? Chapter 10, verses 34-39, in which Jesus says,

    “34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
    36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
    37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
    38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.”

    Or how about later, in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 13, verses 41-42, where Jesus promises to torture the infidels who refuse to follow his path?
    “41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

    And has Johny Logic not read the Gospel of Luke? Chapter 12, verse 51, Jesus says, “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division”

    Seems to me that Johny Logic has not really read the Bible.

  • هذه الترجمة الانجليزية:

    Message to Denmark and European Union Countries

    Praise be to God and blessings and peace be upon the Messenger of God,

    The content of the message:

    To the officials of Denmark and European Union countries,

    Peace be upon those who follow guidance and justice and all who avoid prejudice and Injustice,

    It is necessary to know that God has sent Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) as a mercy to the entire world, and as an invitation to peace and safety that are accomplished by the submission of people to God.

    God Said: (And WE have not sent you but as a mercy for all peoples), and said: (O you who believe, enter perfectly in Islam).

    According to our religion and prophet, it is a must that we respect all prophets and messengers, those who defame any of the prophets have left the fold of Islam deserving the worst punishment.
    It is strange what the Denmark press has done of mockery and defaming our prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him), even though you know that mockery and defaming doesn’t lie under the category of democracy or the freedom of speech you proclaim.

    Mockery is a violation of others rights, personal freedom, and the democracy you call for. Although one of the main factors of freedom of speech you proclaim is that it shouldn’t cause racial or sectarianism tendencies, it is obvious that mocking our prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) will make the Arab and Islamic Nation react negatively towards Denmark who sponsors this violation of religious and personal rights.

    Here are some questions that include a statement that shows the violation of the press towards the rights of the prophets, people and the nations:

    Would you accept if the Denmark press published the opinion that doubts the Nazi holocaust for Jews?

    Would you accept the opinion that claims that the exploding of the facilities is a legal action?

    Finally, I alert you that what the press is doing of violation towards our prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) may cause motive for the saboteurs to devastate your country, so be careful and put an end to whoever mocks prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him).

    Peace be upon those who follow guidance,

    End of the message.

    Written by: Abu Omar Al-Otiby.

  • Joelsk

    The posters to this site have way too much time on their hands. Please go do something productive to help the economy. Thank you.

  • Jim

    Abu Omar Al-Otiby writes:
    “According to our religion and prophet, it is a must that we respect all prophets and messengers, those who defame any of the prophets have left the fold of Islam deserving the worst punishment.
    It is strange what the Denmark press has done of mockery and defaming our prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him), even though you know that mockery and defaming doesn’t lie under the category of democracy or the freedom of speech you proclaim.”

    The Danish publishers have not left the fold of Islam. They never were Muslims. Or do you mean that anyone who doesn’t obey Islamic law is “deserving the worst punishment”?

    Second, it is simply not factually true that “mockery and defaming doesn’t lie under the category of democracy or the freedom of speech.” Watch a satellite feed of the British prime minister in debate in Parliament and you’ll see plenty of mockery and defaming. Mockery and defamation is a pillar of American and British societies. I will agree that continental Europeans have some hypocrisy problems in this regard.

    As for your first of two questions, see this post. It is acceptable to do so, even if it is not agreeable.

  • Mario

    To lover mhmmad prophet’s #237:

    My dear lover, your prose testifies to the fact that you are a living mockery of common sense. So – if you were ever right in writing that “Mockery is a violation of others rights, personal freedom, and the democracy you call for” – I hereby urgently request that you peacefully, spontaneously and immediately cease to exist. According to my religion it is in fact a must that you suppress yourself.

    I also alert you that your persisting in your unlawful existence may cause motive for the saboteurs to devastate your country, so be careful and put a swift end to yourself and whoever else mocks common sense.

    End of message, written by: Prophet Mario

  • From Denmark

    Dear Mr. Abu Omar Al-Otiby and others

    Denmark got a constitution, and here we find a principle of “freedom of press, under the law” .. this means that newspapers can publish anything. The point here is that nobody’s reading the papers until they are published – other than the people that writes them. So the government in Denmark think is irrelevant .. the newspapers don’t need the governments approval.

    The government in Denmark MAKES laws. If the government makes a law, it up to the courts to decide whether or not a person or a newspaper have broken it. There are no laws against drawings of this kind at present time.

    There are four big newspapers in Danish, and Jyllands-Posten is one of them. I have never subscripted to this particularly newspaper – and I am so sick and tired of people thinks that I am somehow responsible for what a single newspaper writes back in September 2005. All the time we hear “The Danish people”, “Denmark Times”, “Denmark press”, “We are going to punish Denmark” .. who are they talking to?

    Now, you may be religious – I am not. Islam is not a person, but a set of ideas – but they are not MY ideas. People get insulted, ideas don’t. And I have every right to muck, criticize, and make fun of ideas. E.g. I think that creationism is the stupidest thing I every head – I think that Zionism claims of a promised land is absurd, and I think that I have the right to draw whatever I feel like, as long as I pay for the paper. I don’t follow law made by a god, that I don’t believe in. I follow the Danish law. If you are not happy with the laws in Denmark then run for parliament, get in the government and change the laws.

    A by the way: When the drawings came out, I thought that the picture of Mohammed as a terrorist was kind of stupid – don’t prove me wrong.

  • Till försvar av det utvalda sändebudet
    Talare: ´Allâmah Rabî´ bin Hâdî al-Madkhalî
    Källa: sahab.net
    publicerad 06.02.2006
    http://www.darulhadith.com

    Lov och pris tillkommer Allâh. Må välsignelse och fred vara över Allâhs sändebud, hans familj och hans följeslagare.
    Media som tidningar och dylikt har publicerat pinsamma och vidriga bilder som härrör från Islâms hatiska fiender, vilkas hat brinner mot Islâm och Islâms profet.
    Det rör sig nämligen om handlingar som består av förtal och skymf av Allâhs sändebud Muhammad (sallâ Allâhu ´alayhi wa sallam) och ett missvisande av hans budskap. De härrör från hatiska, kristna individer och organisationer och från hatiska och gäckande skribenter, såsom den danska tidningen ”Jyllandspostens” skribenter. De har gjort narr av den bästa människan och det ädlaste sändebudet Muhammad (sallâ Allâhu ´alayhi wa sallam). Aldrig någonsin har jorden känt till någon främre, noblare, rättvisare och barmhärtigare människa än honom. Inte heller har jorden någonsin känt till något budskap som är fullkomligare, komplettare, rättvisare och barmhärtigare än hans budskap. Detta budskap består av tron på samtliga profeter och sändebud, respekt mot dem och försvar av dem från förtal och nedvärdering. Detta budskap har tagit hand om deras verkliga historia. Till dem hör ´Îsâ (Jesus) och Mûsâ (Moses). Den som då förnekar honom, har likaså förnekat och nedvärderat dem.
    Dessa vildar har gjort narr av honom (sallâ Allâhu ´alayhi wa sallam) och ritat olika typer av bilder på honom. En av dessa bilder framställer Muhammad (sallâ Allâhu ´alayhi wa sallam) med en bomb invirad i sin turban. Vi säger följande till dessa hatiska och obotfärdiga syndare och de hatiska européer och amerikaner som ligger bakom detta:
    Muhammad (sallâ Allâhu ´alayhi wa sallam), hans rättfärdiga kalifer och resten av hans ädla följeslagare har aldrig någonsin grundat några vapenfabriker. De har aldrig grundat några vapenindustrier som tillverkar svärd och spjut, för att inte tala om skadliga bomber, raketer och andra destruktiva vapen.
    Muhammad (sallâ Allâhu ´alayhi wa sallam) har inte grundat en enda vapenindustri, ty han var sänd som en nåd till alla folk. Han var sänd för att vägleda alla människor till det som gör dem lyckliga i detta liv och i livet efter detta. Han var sänd för att leda dem till att ge deras Skapare Hans rättighet. Denna Skapare har skapat dem för att de endast skall dyrka Honom. Den som vägrar det, är en obotfärdig syndare som förtjänar att straffas av världarnas Herre, Mästaren och Skaparen av denna värld, såväl i detta liv som i livet efter detta.
    Till er västerlänningar som säger sig leva i en civilisation, säger vi följande:
    Ni har författningar och lagar som utrotar karaktärer och tillåter olika typer av förbud. Exempel på dem är otukt, sexuella avvikelser, räntor som ödelägger folks ekonomier, att äta självdött kött och svinkött, vilket ger upphov till Diyathah (brist på skam och svartsjuka), som gör att mannen inte känner svartsjuka för sin hustru, syster eller dotter. Hon har rätt att begå i otukt och umgås med vem hon vill. Detta hör till destruktionen som samtliga budskap har förbjudit.
    Vad gäller bomber, destruktiva vapen, stridsflygplan, pansarvagnar och missiler, skall ni veta att det är ni som tillverkar dem med era djävulska hjärnor som endast tänker på orättvisa, fientlighet, förtryck och ockupation av alla typer av människor för att förslava dem och släcka deras liv.
    Allt detta gör ni i civilisationens, de mänskliga rättigheternas, frihetens och rättvisans namn!
    Alla intellektuella människor känner till detta om er. Er svarta historia är översvämmad av era vilda och terroristiska handlingar. Det handlar nämligen om er egen historia som skrivits ned av både era fiender och vänner.
    Den som inte känner till det, får läsa om er kolonialisms historia och de två världskrigens historia och deras resultat. Under det första världskriget stupade mer än 20 miljoner människor i Europa medan dubbelt så många skadades. Under det andra världskriget stupade 17 miljoner soldater och 18 miljoner civila. Detta skedde under 5½ år. Forskarna säger att det gick åt 1000 miljarder dollar till dessa militäroperationer. Vad skadorna för detta krig beträffar, uppges de motsvara 2100 miljarder dollar. Som tillägg kan vi dessutom addera alla förstörda städer, uppbrända marker, översvämmade dalar och övergivna fabriker och industrier vilket resulterade i att uppehället och försörjningen skars av. [ur al-Harb al-´Âlamiyyah ath-Thâniyyah, sid. 448-449, av Ramadhân Lând.]

    Hiroshimabomben
    Författaren till ”al-Harb al-´Âlamiyyah ath-Thâniyyah”, sid. 446-447, sade:
    ”Det kan vara lämpligt att tala lite om denna första atombomb. Låt oss nämna vad en japan sade under sitt samtal med Röda korsets Marcel Gono:
    ”Plötsligt reste sig ett rosa ljus i himlen som efterföljdes av ett onaturligt skalv. Direkt därefter svepte en våg av värme in och en kraftig storm som utplånade allt i dess väg.
    Under några korta sekunder hade tusentals människor brunnit ihjäl. De hade antingen gått på huvudgatorna i centrum eller också suttit vid sidan av dem. Många människor dog av den fruktansvärda hettan som spritt sig överallt. Andra låg på marken skrikande av våndorna. Hela deras kroppar var täckta med dödliga brännskador. Allt som var helt och tillgängligt innan bombnedsläppet – väggar, bostäder och industrier – hade nu jämnats totalt med marken…”
    Detta är exempel på er civilisations milstolpar som ni prisar och skryter om i ert krig mot Islâm och Islâms profet. Än idag fortsätter ni med att påöka alla former av orättvisor och förödelser. Än idag fortsätter ni utveckla destruktiva vapen. Jag svär vid Allâh att det där är vad ett barbariskt och djuriskt beteende leder till. Allâh (ta´âlâ) sade:
    أَمْ تَحْسَبُ أَنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ أَوْ يَعْقِلُونَ إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا كَالْأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا
    ”Eller tror du att de flesta av dem lyssnar eller att de använder sitt förstånd? Men de är inte bättre än kreatur, nej, de har ännu oklarare begrepp om vägen.”
    [al-Furqân 25:44]
    Låt därför era bomber, och till dem hör Hiroshimabomben och dess likar, vara ert och era ledares kännetecken. Låt era destruktiva vapen vara era huggtänder och klor som ni sätter i allt levande:
    وَسَيَعْلَمُ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا أَيَّ مُنقَلَبٍ يَنقَلِبُونَ
    ”Och de som har gjort sig skyldiga till orättmättiga angrepp skall få se vilken vändning de skall vända.”
    [ash-Shu'arâ' 26:227]

    Skrivet av Rabî´ bin Hâdî ´Umayr al-Madkhalî
    1426/12/28

  • An American Mick

    To From Denmark:
    In my humble opinion, Moslems the world over are proving you wrong more and more every day. It’s not that you lack sense – quite the contrary. Your initial disagreement with the cartoons were the response of a fair-minded person who maintains admirable tolerance of other cultures.

    To Lover Mhmmd:
    (Your Arabic script saying “here’s the English translation:”); you ask us to accept that it’s legal to blow up facilities, I guess because some Arabs are offended. News flash, oh lover of the Moslem style of peace: blowing up facilities is clearly NOT legal, not by any stretch of the imagination. At the very best, it is a childish, weak, animalistic, and inexcusible response to having been offended by another human being.

    I am continually offended by your culture’s ceaseless condemnation of mine as “from the devil” and deserving of annihilation. Being reasonable, however, it would never occur to me to burn your embassy, demand your execution, or declare holy war on you and your economy.

    Oh, and to be clear, it is NOT necessary for us to know that God has sent Prophet Mohammed. It is necessary for each of us to decide for ourselves what we believe about God and Mohammed.

  • Jake

    I positively agree with American Mick, how i wish for stupid Moslems to start thinking rationally.

  • Another Dane

    This debate her is full of brainwashed people. When more than 85% of American people belive in God it is useless to argue with them.

  • Abu selam

    (((((((((((((Oh of animals you are dirty people))))))))))))))
    Devil
    Danimark = usa
    Demokratie

  • Another Dane

    Thank you Mr. Abu salem for proven my point.

  • Another Dane

    The Danish Flag is the first and oldest flag in the world. There is some insane logic that the Un Demokratic Moslem world are burning this item.

  • Kent

    # 237. lover mhmmad prophet said “According to our religion and prophet, it is a must that we respect all prophets and messengers, those who defame any of the prophets have left the fold of Islam deserving the worst punishment.”

    Being a dane, I take full responsibility of the paper that published the cartoons. I have never entered the fold of Islam, but I have never entered any fold willingly either. My cartoon of Mohamed with only bombs on his mind was intended to defame those who claim to be the only true followers of the Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings of God be upon him). My cartoon was directed at those followers who give the world a falsified picture of the Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings of God be upon him) and his true followers. My cartoon was intended to make believers and non-believers stop to think what the Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings of God be upon him) is really about. Peace or war? I am not worthy of giving an answer since I have not read the Quran. In my belief I wouldn’t be worthy even if I had read the Quran. I would not be worthy since I believe in only people who do good, not words that can be interpreted.
    I hope the answer of Muslims around the world is that the Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings of God be upon him) is about peace, not about war. I hope that the true followers of the Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings of God be upon him) will stand up to untrue followers and tell people in the western world that the Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings of God be upon him) is about peace, not about killing people. They can do so by non-embassy burning demonstrations, by burning the Danish flag (it’s a symbol but just a piece of cloth), or by any means they want as long as they do not hurt any living person.
    But your post tells me that I deserve the worst punishment. What is your worst punishment for defending your Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings of God be upon him) in my media? Am I a bigger sinner for asking a question by printing a drawing than those who justify their killings, their dictatorships, and their terror in the name of your Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings of God be upon him)?
    How will you punish me “lover mhmmad prophet”? And will you live happily ever after knowing that the cartoon of the Prophet Mohamed (peace and blessings of God be upon him) with only bombs on his mind was true, and knowing that your act of killing me was denounced by the majority of followers of the Prophet Mohamed (peace and blessings of God be upon him) ?
    I will now go on to read the rest of your post.

  • Kent

    #237: lover mhmmad prophet asked:
    “Would you accept if the Denmark press published the opinion that doubts the Nazi holocaust for Jews?”
    I would have to accept it but I would protest against all who agreed to that statement, be they Nazis or Jews. And if that didn’t help, I would protest some more. Then I would stop buying the paper and encourage others to do the same. If I was threathened to be killed, I would fight back.

  • Kent

    #237: Abu Omar Al-Otiby asked:

    Would you accept the opinion that claims that the exploding of the facilities is a legal action?
    No. Your mentioned facilities could be the farm of a man who has to support his 2-year old daughter. I would never even consider taking the bread out of the mouth of an innocent person. Well, try me, no one has ever tried that experiment on me. But I would be disappointed with myself.
    Would you accept and respect me for that answer, even if I haven’t read the Quran?

  • Abu selam

    Oh of people democracy brings you in hell why follows it to democracy why follows your devil??????????????? Why your Mrs being naked???? who said their is itself naked a making Oh of people it says that to God has son, that is denies has your devil you so said to it to hell Schmeisst. But who hears of you it defends your devil

    (((((((((((((((((oh devil people))))))))))))))))))))
    Oh of animals
    Oh of pigs
    Oh dirty humans
    Oh shit loud

  • Kent

    #237 Abu Omar Al-Otiby wrote
    “Finally, I alert you that what the press is doing of violation towards our prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) may cause motive for the saboteurs to devastate your country, so be careful and put an end to whoever mocks prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him).”
    Do you agree with the saboteurs? Would you allow your own daughter or son to join the saboteurs? Those saboteurs who, in my view mock the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him).”
    I would teach my daughters and sons before I would have to accept that they joined the saboteurs. It’s their will. Have you taught your daughters and sons?

  • Another Dane

    When all of the worlds 1.1 Billion Moslems are obligated to execute people who offend Mohamed.
    How can you deal with a Religion that demand this, this is hate and not love!

  • Kent

    Abu Omar Al-Otiby
    In Denmark, we have a saying: Who is silent complies.
    Those Muslims who do not stand up against those untrue followers of Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) comply with him. They agree to the cartoon of Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) as a real picture of Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) being a terrorist. Do you want that?
    Fortunelately, in Denmark, Danes (some of them happen to be Muslims) are finally standing up to the perception of Islam in the western world: That Muslims are terrorists. The people at the paper who published those cartoons have understood. Our Parliament have understood. They (be they Muslims or non-Muslims) discuss what to be done to live in peace. Unfortunately, we have to fight the tabloids who fill their front pages with anti-peace headlines.
    We will, for ever, fight for peace and stand up to those who claim violence is the only answer.
    Will I get a positive answer, or will you criticise me as most Moslems do? Not listening to my words because they think the whole world thinks they’ve commited an undeclared, undefined terrible sin?

  • Abu selam

    (((((((((((((((((oh devil people))))))))))))))))))))

  • Another Dane

    Moslems = (((((((((((((((((oh devil people))))))))))))))))))))

  • An American Mick

    To Another Dane:
    It’s useless to argue with SOME Americans about religion (not 85%, I’m sure). Most of use are quite open to other ideas and cultures. That’s exactly why Moslems and many Christians consider us heathenistic, or “from the devil”, lacking conviction about any “true” religion.

    It’s okay, though. We respect their absolute right to think that about us. As long as they don’t try to kill us over it. That would be, well, very bad for them, in the long run.

  • Abu selam

    I ask you Dog is not animals?????

    Why your wives make film with dog Sexele!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is human??????????????? Shit for you you are dirty animals

  • An American Mick

    Abu STILL shit loud…

    Abu, it was funny the first couple of times. Now it’s getting dull.

  • Abu selam

    ((((((((((((((((((I legend you mall it are still correct devil))))))))))))))))))
    Christianity = (((((((((((((((((oh devil people))))))))))))))))))))

  • Another Dane

    But American Mike they threaten to kill us Danes. Danish soldiers i Afghanistan and Irak has been threaten by killing, and they are only in Afghanistan after 9/11!

  • Abu selam

    ((((((((((((((Shit for you you are dirty animals))))))))))))))))

  • Another Dane

    And as you all know 9/11 was an American issue!

  • Another Dane

    So now Danes are suffering for helping the Americans.

  • An American Mick

    I know, Dane. It’s an outrage, and I can’t understand why the backlash against the protesters has been practically non-existent. Instead we have weak-kneed politicians trying to placate these animals.

    Western European nations have opened their arms to these people and given them shelter as they fled their own nations, and they repay your generosity by threatening the very people and culture that gave them refuge.

    In biology, I believe that’s the definition of “destructive parasitism”.

  • An American Mick

    9/11 was, I believe, a global issue.

    Danes are suffering because Moslems are targeting them over some cartoons. A Danish cartoonist expressed the sentiment of many Danes, as well as many Europeans and Americans, in a Danish newspaper, and Moslems are targeting you because they can’t live with your freedom to do that in your own country.

    It is simple-minded to reflexively point to the US as the reason for ALL the world’s problems. , when that is CLEARLY not the case.

  • SLH

    Another Dane are you serious? You Danes are not suffering because you helped Americans. Those cartoons ran in your Danish newspapers and offended lots of people. Stand up and take responsibility for your own actions. I am for freedom of the press. I support your right to publish the cartoons. I support their right to vocalize anger. But don’t blame us.

  • An American Mick

    Dane, your soldiers are in Afghanistan and Iraq because your government saw fit to send them there. Hell, I don’t even want OUR soldiers there.

  • Kent

    For those who think. The world is divided into two kinds of people: those who think, and those who don’t.

  • Kent

    Mick and SLH: I agree.
    + we’re in Iraq not to show solidariity but because our Government wants to lick Bush’s ass. It means money

  • An American Mick

    We’d obviously BOTH be much happier if Bush were sent back to his Texas ranch. I’m afraid it will be a long three years. Unless, of course, Allah (or whoever) smiles upon us and Bush ends up facing impeachment…

  • Another Dane

    I agree ,I was against the soldiers go to war in Irak, and Kent your rigth Bush ass and money.

  • Another Dane

    To SLH: Don’t be naive, the cartoons is nothing but Denmark is a small contry. We don’t have abig armey like US

  • Another Dane

    American soldier have done many much bigger insults to Moslims in Middle East.

  • Another Dane

    I must tell you about Denmark: We have a big main land called Jylland and plenty small island Fyn Sjælland.The capitol is in Sjælland, and i come from Copenhagen, but Jylland people is farm people, and they are very afraid about people from Copenhagen. Copenhagen newspaper would never had make this drawings,. And the drawings was a result of a poll where they want people to make this drawings to a book for children. But many was afraid to do this because the case of Salman Rushdie who get a Fatwa from moslems from his book : The satanic Verse.

  • An American Mick

    To Another Dane: we KNOW the cartoons are nothing. It’s the mongrels burning your embassies that don’t understand that. But c’mon – the cartoons ARE why they’re threatening to kill you.

    Ridiculous, I know…

  • Another Dane

    So the stupid Jylland people make this drawings in the local newpaper Jylland Posten. Copenhagen people me included don’t like this paper we call it for Jylland Peter in ironi. So i won’t no part in this shit paper. But to claime that i have part in this drawings is a lie!!!

  • Another Dane

    But Mick You don’t understand that the drawings is only a math to ignite the fire in Middle East.This people you se in TV i bet very few had seen this Drawings, but some stupid people make fake drawuings where Mohamed fuck a dog and with Pig snout and ears that was not ironi but insult.

  • Another Dane

    In Pakistan i was traveling there 2 months before 9/11, has a unimployment on 88% and the same in Middle East. That means that young people has no money, and no life outside the family. And this young people make all almost of the demonstration.

  • An American Mick

    Yes, Another Dane, I do understand that. But if you insult me and I get upset, that’s understandable. If you insult me and I do violence to you, that is neither understandable nor acceptable! My decision to react with violence would be MY RESPONSIBILITY, my fault. It wouldn’t be your fault, or the fault of some other joker who may (or may not have) insulted me before you.

    In any event, please place the blame where it belongs – on the people who are acting like animals.

  • Another Dane

    And many people in the Moslim world love Sattelites, so the all se how we live in the Western World especalily i US because of Hollywood, and they are very jealous on us because we have nice Homes and enough to eat and Cars. I have travel in Turkey for 20 years. For 20 years the only cars truck and personal cars was Russian cars no western cars, But now they have it and one of the gratest car dead toll in World. And i learn from this 20 years in Turkey that the worst moslems was them there go to Camii or Mosque every friday.

  • An American Mick

    Just for the record, we are not to blame for the unemployment rate in Pakistan, either.

  • Another Dane

    Mick i read i newspaper that Amrican soldiers has thrown the Quaran in some toilets, that is also a greath insult.

  • Another Dane

    No i just say because young folks has no money, i’m not talking of US to blami. In reality it is The british Empire who has make this.

  • An American Mick

    You read that in a newspaper. Therefore, it’s true.

    Even if it were true, that would make us to blame for Moslems burning your embassy? Okay, sorry, but that’s a load of shit.

  • An American Mick

    It’s the Pakistanis who make this unemployment.

  • An American Mick

    Look, Dane – people are responsible for their own actions and for the living conditions in their own countries. Period.

  • Another Dane

    Yes, but before World War II , the was no Pakistan.

  • An American Mick

    Yes, and…?

  • Another Dane

    Now you make me angry Mick US use half of the oil in the world but you are only 300 Mill people You have energy interest!!! Denmark make its own oil.

  • Another Dane

    US make the oilprice sky high and i Denmark we pay 1 1/5 Dollar for 1 litre gasoline. 1 litre not a gallon.

  • Another Dane

    And that is the problem world over!!!!!!!

  • An American Mick

    Sorry to make you angry, Dane, but you’re the one blaming everything on the US. I really don’t mean to make you angry. Just speaking my mind, as you are. If it makes you feel better to hold the US responsible for all the world’s ills, then be my guest. We’re to blame for much of the good in the world as well, but we probably won’t go there.

  • Another Dane

    And now if every China people want a car what about the pollution.

  • Another Dane

    Ok Mick no problems but i have travel in the WORLD, AND I FOUND OUT THAT ALL PEOPLE IS ALIKE.

  • Another Dane

    In Denmark we have 1000 years tradition for talking about the problems, not for killing people,we talk about the problems. And find a way with not killing people.

  • Another Dane

    And it was 110 years since we execute people for crimes.

  • An American Mick

    I’ve travelled quite a bit myself, Dane. I speak Arabic and Russian, and have spent a LOT of time in Europe and elsewhere. I have tremendous respect for the European perspective, but it’s sometimes misguided to blame so much on the US. We’re very far from perfect, but we’re also NOT the devil.

    Blame the US when it’s deserved, of course. I still maintain that your embassies are being burned because the Moslem world lags centuries behind when it comes to diplomacy, tolerance, and reasoned response to percieved insult.

  • Another Dane

    So your US have no guilt?

  • Another Dane

    Of course is Danish ironic drawings not US!!!!

  • An American Mick

    Dane – I never tried to defend every US action in the history of the world, nor will I ever. There have been plenty short-sighted, indefensible American acts. Anyone with half a brain would yield that point.

    We are still not responsible for mongrels burning your embassies. The mongrels are.

  • Another Dane

    No but you pile the woods.

  • Another Dane

    Do you thing moslims love GUATANMO Bay?

  • Layla

    Ah, yes, who benfits from all of this? Will it be Bush’s Saudi friends who stand to corner the Middle Eastern market on butter? Not all Moslems think it is illegal to show images of the Prophet, in fact some mosques have pictures in them. Do they think the Danes should stop eating pork? Drinking beer? Is it really about religion, or is it about money?

    Are they really so confused they don’t understand the Danish government works The same way Bush thinks Saddam Hussein runs al-qaida.

    So does Denmark really supply the world’s insulin and are the Moslems ready to boycott insulin?

    Maybe some of the Danes can explain this: some websites in the U.S. say the moslems complained to the Danish newspaper, but the newspaper just blew them off, didn’t listen, ignored them. It was only when the paper decided to print everything againthat the Moslems went ballistic/went crazy. They also say the newspaper that printed this is a right-wing/Nazi/anti–free-speech type of paper. What kind of newspaper is this and what happened after the Moslems complained?

    Finally, here is my poem, in Arabic alliteration with an English translation. It is dedicated to Shlomo/Abu Shalom and all the lonely teenage settler boys. If someone wants to try it in Danish, knock your socks off. I hope it is at least as wise and profound as the rest of the poetry posted here.

    Ya zouja jamal, ya zouja shaitana
    Ya zouja kelb, ya zouja haroof
    Yalla ya zouja.

    Booboo zacky
    Booboo helluwa
    Booboo saut.

    O camel wife, O devil wife
    O dog wife, O sheep wife
    Come on let’s go, O wife.

    Delicious poop
    Sweet poop
    Loud poop.

    I hope this doesn’t make anyone, you know, all hot, so they have to, like, go away to look at animal porn sites or anything.

  • Another Dane

    We Danes have done what Osama Bin Laden and Bush not can do even in 1000 years.

  • Another Dane

    If we go forward we die if we go backwards we die, so let us go forward and die!

  • SLH

    Another Dane, you appear to be a split personality. One that writes quite coherently and one that doesn’t. Ironic drawings? You would call the drawings ironic? How about ill-conceived.

  • Jim

    Another Dane,

    Please don’t cut and paste another’s words here. And you might want to try to consolidate your own words into a series of thoughts that follow one another. The random sentence here and there is difficult to understand. I’m assuming, of course, that you want to be understood. Maybe that’s not your goal.

  • Another Dane

    Well speaking Layla. The proplem was that som Fundatamalistisk Imans living in Demark went to Middle East and talking to their friends down there. Ther was no reaktion in Denmark before that.

  • Abu selam

    western one waves is animal become to live like pigs and then say which we to live a democracy to say we to live liberty that is cathedral of you or to say humanly, that is greets denies in Iraq {Abu qreib} has it seen which your Army made it that humanly?????????? You are dirty and dirty and dirtily!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have ground made dirty. You are wrong humans and you are correct devil devil your wives naked made and does not say to you that is democracy that is liberty to you point not who is your father is. You are feast humans you are correct devil

  • Another Dane

    But Jim Many many before me have done it on this side but arabic, so what is the problem?

  • Another Dane

    Please reply Jim i’m waiting.

  • Another Dane

    This is true American Way = Somtimes Coca Cola sometimes War.

  • Gramps

    A point not made in much of what I’ve read and heard about this situation is the apparent fact the original publication in Denmark that printed the cartoons is a very right wing newspaper known for its outspoken fascist politics. I do not claim to be expert on Danish history or politics, but I did recently speak with a freind who is, and I understand from him that the newspaper in question has for years taken editorial positions in support of a racist and Nazi-oriented politics. Having checked out the offending cartoons and comparing them with what I’ve personally observed over the past 60 years of reading newspapers from around the world — including the very racist and anti-Jewish cartoons that regularly appear in the middle eastern and Indonesian media — I find them very mild and I think quite poingniant. But i think we must keep them in perpective: if indeed they were initially published to create a racist hysteria the left must keep them at arm’s length.

  • Dane

    To Gramps you had falsh information. Jyllands Posten is an old and very consavative News paper no Nazi or racist paper but like in all wars the first victim is the truth.

  • Jim

    Well, Another Dane, I can’t read Arabic, so I can’t tell what someone is saying in Arabic.

  • danish

    This side is a great pitty, no search for truth they make censorship on the comments they don’t like
    the only pupose is selling mercandise and you use freedom to speach to make money True United Bluff i wanna pew

  • Jim

    Oh, deawie deawie me, Bjarne/Danish/Another Dane/Dane. Is it wu who has had made fifty five posts over the past two days? Oh, deawie deawie yes. It is wu. Do wu caw that censowship? Wu do! Did wu pay for the server space to hold your “free speech”? No, wu did not. Do we awwow evewybody to speak hewe? Oh, yessie yes yes. Did mean nasty Iwweguwar Times people ask you to organize thoughts of wu more cwearwy? Oh, yessie yes yes. How wude for mean Iwweguwar Times to make a weqwest! Is wu having a widdle tantwum over it? Oh, yessie yes yes. Wu certainly is. Po widdie Dane. Boo hoo.

    I have two actual children, which leaves me with little patience for pretend children. Stop whining, or I’ll tell your father when he gets home.

  • another dane

    No Jim you can’t read Arabic but you can count greenback Dollars.

  • Jim
    Everybody who isn’t filthy rich does something for a living. We sell messages that people want that have the side benefit of spreading liberal political messages that we agree with. We’re open and above board about what we do.

    I imagine you either do something for a living yourself, or you’re a kid, or you’re old, or you’re sick, or you’re married to someone who goes out and makes money for you, or you’re on welfare of some sort, or you’ve got a nice trust fund from Mumsy and Dadsy. So you either make money yourself or someone gives it to you. So what? What does it have to do with the price of tea in China? Please get back to the topic at hand.

  • Another Dane

    To Jim. Youre right that is the benefit to live in a free country with social welfare and free shool and free speach we don’t have to bow for the rich people. so long

  • An American Mick

    I can count greenback dollars too.

  • Jim

    I can count ducks. Here’s something to count: in the past twenty years or so, how many Americans have been killed by Muslims? How many Muslims have been killed by Americans? And how many Muslims have been killed by other Muslims?

    I imagine the first number is much smaller than the second, and that the second number is far smaller than the third.

  • An American Mick

    The Moslem world should be thankful for Israel – without Israel, nothing would unite the Arab world.

  • Holger Danske

    I think more muslims have been killed by Americans!

  • Holger Danske

    The real problem with this site is you use Denmark to make your profit ok i know this is the American way, but find another subject. You offending us Danes!

  • Jim

    You mean you, Dane.

    Are you making a joke now? I guess now that I’m offending you Danes you should, um, burn my embassy or something. At least I should draw a cartoon of you first!

    Holger/Another Dane/Bjarne/whoever you are, do you know how many Muslims there are in the world? Hint: Indonesia counts.

  • Holger Danske

    The State Israel is the greatest failure in modern time only because filthy rich Jews live in US was this possible

  • Remember my words…muslims the world over will use this situation now and any future similar circumstances to rationalize their desire to murder others in the name of allah. That is their desire and will continue to be as evidenced by the continuing silence by the moderate muslim community and the constant references to past injustices of others (U.S) to deflect their current irrational and criminal behavior.

  • Holger Danske

    We did burn your embassy in 60 ties,in Copenhagen on account of the Vietnam War

  • Holger, you’re on to something! The perfect way out of this for the Danes…blame everything on the U.S. and then burn our embassy. That will make muslims the world over happy with you and they will forget that you made an offensive cartoon linking muhamed/islam to terrorism. We all know how silly it is to make any correllation between terrorist acts and muslims.

  • Jim

    Holger Danske/Another Dane wrote: “The State Israel is the greatest failure in modern time only because filthy rich Jews live in US was this possible.”

    Ah, yes. The Jews. We finally got back to the Jews. The Jews now, is it? It’s all the Jews’ fault. Except when it’s all the Muslims’ fault. Thanks at least for laying it all on the line. At least you’re honest about your own motivations.

    Johnny Logic, have you been paying attention? Moderate Muslims all over the place are condemning the violence. Open your ears.

  • Absalon

    You Americans are realy funny people you just talking but never listen, you making jokes of everything , when you don’t wanna listen to words!

  • An American Mick

    Absalon, to what words are we not listening? The words that say we are the devil, or that we should die, or that our wives have sex with dogs, or that we shit loud? What exacty has been said here that makes any damn sense that we Americans have not listened to? And when did Moslem violence over Danish cartoonists become Danish and Moslems blaming America for the whole damn thing?

    Jesus Christ, people – next you’re gonna blame us for making the dinosaurs extinct!

    Now that I think of it, though, maybe we did do that…

  • fialisa

    Iam a muslimah.from indonesia.I very very very confuse with western think about muslim.?? Are is this the democracy who they proud and they says?? Islam is peace religion. Prophet muhamad is holy person , who always taech us to become honest, soft and peace. He never teach us to do violence. But, can u see what western do to us? They attack us, they kill us, they make us suffering!!! What we can do? We just back attack and then western says that us bad religion and love war?? Its not fair. Prophet Muhhamad is a man who always give us spirit to live with Allah Way with well,with right condition.Iam muslimah who wearing vail.
    Astagfirullahaladzim. iam cry for my religion, iam cry why western embarrased my propet like that. What his mistake for all of u?? He just tell the truth abaout Allah, He Propet of ISLAM!!!!!!!!!!
    Allahuakbar, allahuakbar.!!!!!!!
    Allah blessing islam………., who want to critiqe me, just send in fhie_a259@yahoo.com
    Allahuakbar!!!!!!!!
    Allahuakbar!!!!!!!!!!

  • Layla

    It always amazes me how people think Americans are so powerful and are responsible for everything that happens in the world. Like we are supposed to constantly adjust and adjust to everything so that nothing bad can ever happen in the world. The sad truth is most Americans don’t even know what is happening in the world. Our news here only shows the local issues. Fortunately we have BBC News on the educational channel or we would not have international news at all.

    At my family’s graveyard near Bramming in Jutland, there is a flame for 4 Resistance fighters who died because of the Nazis. I think they are a strong people in this part of Denmark. But I think the American farmers are more conservative/more redneck.

    (((((Abu Shalom: You are a naked husband. You are empty words.))))) Habibti intee, that should make smoke pour out of your dictionary. Oh, did I use the wrong gender? My Arabic is so rusty. hee hee hee

    Did anyone else notice that four churches in Baghdad were bombed and the Christians are leaving Baghdad in large busses. Bombed, not cartooned. If this happened to Moslems in Denmark it would be on the front page of every newspaper. Coincidence…?

  • An American Mick

    No, Layla, your Arabic is perfect. Mumtazan jiddan, ia sadiqati. I doubt, however, that Abu Shalom thinks so. Hua majnun, after all, na’am?

  • Mark

    I fully beleive that SATAN is fully in control of Islam. He is directing their young and inspiring them to do his will. I ask that all non muslems to consider this point. What better way for SATAN to slowly get control of that religion than to start in a peaceful loving way. SATAN wants world control and his chosen people are the muslems.Christianity is at it’s lowest point in Europe at this moment, the last strong hold of Christian values is in America ,Canada and many small third world nations.

  • sexy kevin

    I had to turn my Tv off earlier, I couldn’t stand watching people protesting in the streets because of a god damn cartoon. I’m a christian myself, but when I was shown a Jesus action figure a few months back I laughed my ass off. It came with a gun and everything. I swear it’s like nobody has a sense of humor anymore, everyone idolizes individuals and forgets the message. I will respect a people when they stop believing that force is the only way, and please don’t give me that “it’s our only option because of you american dogs”. America started out as a poor ass third world country and we fought our way with blood and sweat to be where we are today, tired of people trying to make us feel like we’re somehow guilty for being rich and powerfull. We spend 60% of the resources or whatever the hell that figure is? So what. We also pay for it.

  • Abu selam

    (((((((((((It gives no God except ALLAH and Mohammed is its prophet)))))))))))))

    (((((((((((((((((((Oh of animals you are dirty people on earth))))))))))))))))))))))
    You have caricatures over prophet Mohammed peace is with prophet Mohammed and with all prophets,
    ((((((((((((((because you are dirty animals are You are devil!!!!!))))))))))))
    I legend you 4 things
    1- You say the (ALLAH) have son, You are liars!!! !!!Jesus was prophet peace is with Jesus prophet!
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!((( ALLAH)))has no son (((ALLAH is only one)))!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    2 – Your men marrying with men exactly like people of (LOT) prophet, and you make bad, and we meadows which has ALLAH with its peoples made, has punishes sent!!!
    3 – Your wives marry women!!!!
    4 – Ihr macht Filmen das Hund fickt Eure Frauen in film und Ihr verkauft diesen Filmen!!!
    is the human???
    Is that your democracy???
    Is that your liberty???
    Is that your Mrs. right???
    Is that your peace???
    (((((((Shit for you you are devil)))))))
    ((((((Shit for you you are animals)))))

  • Abu selam

    4 – You make for films dog fickt your wives in film and it sell to these films!!!

  • Abu selam

    Is that your democracy???
    Is that your liberty???
    Is that your Mrs. right???
    Is that your peace???
    (((((((Shit for you you are devil)))))))
    ((((((Shit for you you are animals)))))

  • Kent

    Oh dear, have we all screwed up by not providing links to where ever we get our news from. I’ve been reading Al-Jazeera, CNN, BBC and various French and German speaking papers but American papers tend to focus on internal news, and not many arab papers have english sections.

    Here are some links to news in english and arabic from Denmark so you can judge for yourselves:

    http://www.jp.dk The infamous paper that printed the drawings in the first place. The paper has a news section in english and has published an open letter in english and arabic about the situation (in the menu to the right). otherwise http://www.jp.dk/english_news/

    http://www.dr.dk The Danish equivalent to BBC. News in several languages although not as comprehensive as its British counterpart. Unfortunately, I’ve just learned that dr.dk/international has been the victim of budget cuts from Jan 1. Sorry. I’m appalled.

    other links but in danish
    http://www.politiken.dk
    http://www.eb.dk
    http://www.bt.dk
    http://www.berlingske.dk

    I thought this post would be good but I must say that Danish media don’t seem interested in foreign opinion. I have to revise my view on how liberal the Danes are.

    Has anyone any good links for me?

  • From Denmark

    To Layla and others

    Jyllands-Posten is one of the major newspapers in demark. In Danish term, the newspaper is liberal/conservative. Its NOT racist or anything like it. It’s a respected and old newspaper.

    I general, the political spectrum in Denmark is quite narrow. But the government has been harsh on the Muslim communities. Now you could call this intolerance, but the fact is that Denmark has, along with most other European counties, major problems with integrating the Muslim immigrant into society. Unemployment, high crime rates and inability to speak Danish clings to the Muslims, how lives in ‘ghettos’ around the cities. I know this, because I live in one. These are REAL problem – not imaginary.

  • Kent

    Here’s a little treat of background information to put things in perspective.

    A group of Danish imams traveled the Middle East to gather support in their protest against the Jyllands-Posten. They brought with them the 12 drawings and 3 extra drawings/photos to accentuate their point.

    One of the extra photos allegedly depicted the prophet with pig’s ears and a snout. According to Danish media yesterday, the photo was in fact taken at a French pig squeeling contest and the man in the photo, Jacques Barrot, just happened to have a full beard…. makes one think, doesn’t it?

    http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=437199

    I have not been able to confirm this but the consequences are as absurd as is reality. A group of French farmers have fun squeeling like the pigs they love thereby creating WWIII…, much more absurd than the assasination of Prince Ferdinand in 1914….

    We shouldn’t spend so much time blaming each other and ourselves. We should just try to work it out and look forward coz we have a situation now and our pasts are insignificant in that we’re all to blame. So stop the blaming and start asking “where do we go from here?”.

    That includes abu selam, Holger Danske, etc. There are too many good opinions and questions in this debate to end it.

  • From Denmark

    The cartoons are just the latest case of this kind in Denmark. In October 2004 an associated professor from the Arabic Institute at University of Copenhagen held a (scientific) lecture, where he was reading from the Quran. He was later picked up by a car, beaten up by three Arabic men, threatened and thrown in a park – and told that the infidel should not read from the holy scripts.

    Now, Muslims can worship in whatever way they like, but don’t tell other people what they can and cannot do based on your religious beliefs. And stop demanding so called ‘respect’ with constant threats. It makes sense to me to respect a Muslim as a fellow human being, and respect his right to have religious beliefs. But how come I HAVE to respect some ideas, that I think is inhuman.

    If three burned embassies are the price to pay for having the freedom of speech and a society based on non-religious ideas, it’s a small prices compared to the price millions of Muslims in the middle east are paying each day for NOT HAVING IT. How come the vast number of refugees and immigrant from the middle east? It’s like the Berlin Wall – how come no ones ever climbed from the west to the east?

  • Kent

    Here’s a little less amusing background for you.

    “another Dane, Holger Danske, and Absalon” have shown you the downside of the Danish debate.

    another Dane: Danes have this weird obsession about being right. If defeated in intellectual discussion they will change the subject or bring on new points to derail the discussion. Although he has his points, “another dane” is clearly one of those. He will never move until he wins the discussion by tiring out his opponents (fellow debators). In that sense, he’s no better than the ones he blames for not listening.

    Holger Danske: Holger Danske is a statue in the cellars of Elsinore Castle, the location of Shakespeare’s Hamlet. Legend has it that he’s asleep but will wake up to defend Denmark in times of war. Danish Neo-Nazis cherish him as a symbol of being Danish (Aryan). http://www.danskfront.dk top left. They are the only ones in Denmark to exploit his name in that way. Just like Bin Laden exploits the name of Mohamed as an excuse for killing. Danish Neo-Nazis are insignificant in Denmark but I didn’t know the weight of them internationally. Maybe that’s what ordinary Muslims experience at the moment and anyway, this should be sufficient to explain the bablings of “Holger Danske”. He must be a Neo-Nazi.

    absalon: Absalon was the bishop who founded the city of Copenhagen in the 12th century. Actually, Copenhagen was by then already a thriving village living of the riches of the sound by which it was laid (Øresund) but Absalon is now an icon of Danish Neo-Nazis on line with Holger Danske. Absalon may be the Mohammed of the Danes but Denmark hasn’t realised that… what a pity. My guess is that “absalon” is as Neo-Nazi as Holger Danske.

    If my guess about “Holger Danske” and “absalon” is right, then I think I understand how Muslims feel right now. To me Holger Danske and Absalon are icons in Danish culture so “Holger Danske” and “absalon” probably hurt me in the same way as the cartoons and Osama Bin Laden are hurting ordinary Muslims. It’s degrading and makes me feel full of anger, and I want to protest against whatever accusations may come. I’m in a state of powerlessness but I’m happy that I have the courage to voice my protest. I’m not sure that Muslims in Syria and Lebanon have that same sense of security. They don’t have freedom of speach and they would probably be killed for a post like this.

    As for “Kent”…. erhhh… I’d rate myself an irregular…that’s for you to decide.

  • justice

    If West countries believe freedom of expression, Why prison every talks about the myth Holocaust? I think freedom of expression is a lie.

  • Safiea Y

    Just a message to Fruktat. I don’t recall saying anything about following the Islamic belief but by Law and many other religions state it, that u don’t need to like everyone but you must learn to get along with everyone. We’re not asking for u to bow your heads with us i mean that is your own decision. We’re just asking to be accepted as Muslims and moreover as HUMANS. we have 2eyes 2ears, a mouth a nose, 2arms, 2legs and exact same organs as every other human has. we are no different the only aspect that differs between us is the fact that we believe in God and we have ways of living of living prospers lives. I mean do u think or anyone out there for that fact, you rekn it would be nice or you would accept being discriminated against just for your religion?……. i don’t think so. and you guys talk about 911 and the bali bombings and the invasion to Iraq and the war between Israel and Palastine, but what you don’t get is you’re only EATING WJHAT THE MEDIA IS FEEDING YOU. and you’re not reading between the lines, you only say “There’s a mess” ? you don’t ever ask “Why is there a mess” ? But who am i to talk about acceptance right? up until today i’m tlaking the 20tj Century and USA havn’t accepted The BLACKS as humans that there is still discriminations against the black, the Hispanics, and the poor. and Denmark talk about freedom right? so a girl dressed half naked is that called “freedom” or is it in fact sexism. They throw a woman in every commerical that has absolutley nothing to do with woman is that freedom? face it we all know that the majority of names behind BIG FASHION labels are actually men. so this world is in fact dominated by men, you talk about freedom when there is no freedom. don’t you rekn it’s better to fix you own country before you start with other countries. Buti still don’t get it. Islam means to “surrender in the Name of Allah” it means peace. only because you see the war going on, through the media you automatically believe what you are being feed by the media. serioulsy, do ur own research don’t be biased, and don’t discriminate against a culture/religion when there is only a minimum of knowlegde in ur head!

  • An American Mick

    Justice, in some cases our freedom of expression is violated. We work to change that when it happens, if we have the courage to do so.

  • Safiea Y

    IN REPLY TO:
    Holger Danske Says:
    February 7th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
    The real problem with this site is you use Denmark to make your profit ok i know this is the American way, but find another subject. You offending us Danes!
    WELL OKAY…. FAIR ENOUGH NOW YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT BEING OFENSIVE RIGHT? PLEASE PLEASE I SUGGEST YOU JUST READ THE MESSAGES AND NOT REPLY CAUSE NOW YOU’RE ONLY MAKING YOURSELF LOOK LIKE A HYPORCRITE. so it didn’t offendmost of the nation to see disgusting insultive images????

  • An American Mick

    I should add that we work to change infringements on our rights peaceably, through non-violent protests and referendum ballots, not by burning buildings and calling for executions. It works.

  • Jim

    Strictly speaking, Safiea, the cartoons are not displays of discrimination, but of prejudice. One is a limiting behavior, the other is an expression of speech. The difference between behavior and speech is a vitally (sometimes literally vitally) important one.

  • An American Mick

    We should all recognize the Moslems who are speaking out louder each day in condemnation of the actions of a militant minority.

    see: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11233372/

    Perhaps the end result of all this madness could be greater understanding and tolerance among the rational majority the world over. Perhaps in time we can all unite to put an end to ALL outrageous acts, including terrorism against innocent people AND unprovoked military actions against soveriegn nations in the name of “freedom”.

  • Abu selam

    (((It gives no God except ALLAH and Mohammed is its prophet)))

    (((((((((((((((((((Oh of animals you are dirty people on earth))))))))))))))))))))))
    You have caricatures over prophet Mohammed peace is with prophet Mohammed and with all prophets,
    ((((((((((((((because you are dirty animals are You are devil!!!!!))))))))))))
    I legend you 4 things
    1- You say the (ALLAH) have son, You are liars!!! !!!Jesus was prophet peace is with Jesus prophet!
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!((( ALLAH)))has no son (((ALLAH is only one)))!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    2 – Your men marrying with men exactly like people of (LOT) prophet, and you make bad, and we meadows which has ALLAH with its peoples made, has punishes sent!!!
    3 – Your wives marry women!!!!
    4 – You make for films dog fickt your wives in film and it sell to these films!!!
    is the human???
    Is that your democracy???
    Is that your liberty???
    Is that your Mrs. right???
    Is that your peace???
    (((((((Shit for you you are devil)))))))
    ((((((Shit for you you are animals)))))

  • Ukendt

    Kære Ken.
    Med hvilken ret gør du dig til dommer over hvilke ord der må bruges på denne profit side?
    Hvis formål er at sælge undertrøjer og kaffe krus.
    At du postulerer en sammenhæng mellem brugen af ordet Holger Danske er forstemmende.
    At bemeldte herre er på forsiden af Danskefont.dk gør ikke brugen af ordet suspect.
    Du graver grøfter, og til din orientering kan jeg fortælle dig at jeg står så langt
    til venstre fra Nazismen man kan komme. Jeg er Provo og Anarkist og jeg bruger ord som
    bomber. At jeg støder dine følelser ved at bruge ordet Holger Danske er dit problem.
    Men at blamere dig med dette sætter dig i samme bås som Muslimerne.
    Du har de åh så rigtige meninger men kæmp for den i Danmark.
    Jeg vil opfordre dig at læse Harold Pinters tale ved Nobelprisen sidste år.

  • American Mick, thanks for pointing me to somewhere where muslims actually spoke out against the violence. That is a rare thing. Too bad it took until muslim protesters were killed for them to do that. I wonder if none had been killed or injured if they would have done that.

  • Kent

    Thanks Mick,
    I thought nobody’d never notice. Hopefully it’ll soon be unfashionable to commit violence in the name of religion.

  • An American Mick

    Kent,

    Hear, hear! The only justifiable violence, I think, would be that directed against tyranny, in defense of freedom, and as an absolutely LAST resort after all other efforts have failed.

    Note: I don’t believe the war in Iraq qualifies. . .

  • Ralph

    Liberal Muslim,

    Now, hang on a second. You’re calling me a redneck because I say Muslims think the truth came “through” Mohammed?

    Are you saying they think Allah DIDN’T convey truth to humanity through Mohammed? If Mohammed is a prophet, but Allah’s truth was not conveyed through him, what exactly DO you mean?

    Oh, I get it. You’re not really paying attention. Surprise surprise.

  • Edgerton

    Seems to me some folks might just be idolizing the non-depiction of Mohammed. There’s irony for you.

  • Kent

    Sori ‘Ukendt’

    My guess was wrong :-) Holger Danske came out of the closet an anarchist and a provocateur :-) Clever tag move, Holger. I did have some trouble linking your naive comments about everything being profit based to the Neo-Nazis. Thanks for making me question my prejudice about Holger. But I think you’re wrong that the guys who run this site make much money on it as you said + I don’t think the site is free. How do they pay for their website, Holger? State funding? Bank robberies?

    You also write that my feelings about Holger are irrelevant. I thought so too but then realised they might be comparable to Muslim feelings. Don’t forget that part of mutual understanding is having/getting something in common, so from that point of view they had value for others and I wrote them down. I still think that.

    Then you ask me to fight for my opinions in Denmark. I live them. What do you do? I teach immigrants and refugees because I’ve been an immigrant to 4 countries myself. I do it to help ordinary people, to create tax contributors from tax receivers and to get bread on the table. I steer clear of major cooperations when I shop. I try to get both sides of the news. What more can I do? Will you vote for me if I run for parliament? How do you contribute to society? As I understand anarchy, everyone must fend for himself and solidarity is non-existant… sounds much like capitalism and the law of the jungle… did I get that right?

    Last but not least, write in english when you’re here and please give us the link to that Harold Pinter speach you mentioned. I’m interested.

    Oh… and my name is Kent, not Ken. Don’t want to be associated with Barbie :-) Get it?? I think that is what this debate is about. Standing up to injustice and the means we use to do so.

  • Kent

    “Ukendt”,

    grøfter??

  • Kent

    Here is the the link that the anarchist “Holger Danske” recommended. Intelligent and something we all should know but maybe not that relevant for this debate. The harold Pinter acceptance speach after having won the Nobel price of literature. http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture.html

  • Kent

    Mohamed with bombs on his mind is winning. A growing number of people are seriously (at this time) distancing themselves from violence. May the “Mohamed drawing with bombs on his mind” be worshipped by all living creatures coz it makes people stop to think and restrain from violence. And those who do not: fear the wrath of the drawing…. shit loud

    (Please notice that thinking does actually occur, and that thinking is moving my mind. It makes me hope that others hope for the same. Have you the same thoughts?)

  • Muslims behave like stoneage savages who wantonly kill innocent fellow human beings because of the misguided rantings of the madman, Mohammad; Mohammand was blatantly insane. His ignorant blathereings, as scribed into the Koran is the cause of his Muslim followers violent, unthinking murderings throughout the planet; Muslim lives
    seem to be cheap, so cheap that they can be thrown away for the ignorant belief
    that 79 virgins await the murderer, which any fool should know is so stupid as to be beyond belief. So throw your lives away; just all do yourselves in, so the rest of humanity can get on with the beauty of their human developement and live in peace. I sense that the only solutions to this problem is the eventual cataclysmic war
    response Islam is fomenting, resulting in the eradication of all Muslims. Then peace on earth can be attained. j.r.

  • Kent

    PS # 365:

    My misspelling of the Nobel Prize (not price) was intentional. Please refer to

    http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/prize and

    http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/price

    My point is that Harold Pinter did not buy a lottery ticket to win his Nobel award. (For those who don’t read english that well and have a hard time with my irony. I hope that others may reveal their ironic passages in the same way when they’re not obvious. Bad for irony but good for understanding each other.)

  • Kent

    Once again “Ukendt”, I’m sorry

    http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture.html

    The speach is 46 minutes long but listen to it from 10:30 to 11:15 and 40:09 to 40:40. Holger Danske is definitely no Nazi.

    Pinter says “When we look into a mirror, we think the image that confronts us is accurate. But move a millimeter and the image changes. We’re actually looking at a never ending range of reflections.” I’m sure Mr. Marley’s response would be, “Have you been loved, let me love you”.

  • Jim

    J.R.,

    When you use the words “ignorant,” “fool,” “stupid,” “beyond belief,” “insane,” “blatherings,” “unthinking,” “rantings,” I believe you’re what psychologists call “projecting.”

  • Kent

    Read and enjoy.

    The drawing is alive. A peaceful message from Iraque. Could this have happened without confronting that part of the world with its non-participitation in the struggle for a non-violent world?

    http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-02-08T203430Z_01_COL827730_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-ASHURA.xml&archived=False

    “Wijdan Mohammed Ali, a university student, walked for four days from Najaf, south of Kerbala, with seven family members. ”
    “Everyone has their own rituals. The Christians and Jews have their rituals, we have ours. Terrorists try to hurt these rituals, but by our unity we will defy them,” she said.”

    “City officials said an estimated 2 million pilgrims were in Kerbala to mark Ashura, the main event in the Shi’ite calendar.” Mind you…. no violence.

    The Jyllands-Posten are being proved wrong which, I hope, was their mission.

  • Kent

    I think that we all know by now, that this discussion is about the question asked in the “Mohamed with bombs on his mind”. Is Islam a terrorist religion? So listen to the Palestinian ambassador to Denmark in this interview. And, please, notice her quick and unproblematic approach to the verb apologise.

    http://www.infocast.dk/jp/jp.php?id=1447&offset=&category=173&q=&infocast=cb4d41f5e7c891942b32fcaabbb93b25

  • Layla

    My browser is displaying two columns of print superimposed. Do I have to do something special to view the remarks?

    Here is the article from Wednesday’s Jordan Times describing the re-arrest of the two editors who published cartoons in Jordan. According to the article the two are now “under police arrest in hospital.”

    http://www.jordantimes.com/wed/homenews/homenews5.htm

    Jordan Times is controlled by the government through a third entity, but in my opinion is worth reading for its dry, factual descriptions of events in the Arab world. Its sister publication, the Arabic language al-Rai downstairs considers it to be hopelessly liberal, but this is the paper the King reads. Articles are only archived for one week.

  • John B

    Layla, re your display problem – First ensure you have got your browser window to the full width of the screen.
    If that doesn’t work, try this-
    Select “Page Source” (or “Source”) from the View menu of your browser. Pick Edit/Select All, then Edit/Copy which puts the whole page that comes up into the clipboard. Open a Notepad (I assume you’re on a Windows system). Paste the copied material into the Notepad. Then use the Edit/Replace All function of Notepad to change all occurrences of .css to .zzz. (What this does is to deactivate all the stylesheets that control formatting of the page). Save the Notepad file somewhere on your system, naming it “test.html” (Include the quotes or else Notepad will call it test.html.txt). Try double-clicking on the saved file. The result may be ugly but should be readable.
    Good luck…..
    As to the main topic of the forum, I can only echo Shakespeare’s words about “man, proud man…plays such tricks under high heaven
    As make the angels weep.”
    The world is crazy. Especially fanatics.

  • Thanks for the article citing Layla. I find it funny that…

    “Both journalists pleaded “not guilty” and said their intention was to drum up public support for the campaign against the Danish and Norwegian newspapers that published the cartoons. ”

    Like they needed any further fuel to “drum up support”. That’s hilarious. All they had to do was claim the drawing was created using an American made pen!

    At least those idiot should have known better since they don’t live in a country that has freedom of the press (or any other freedoms for that matter).

    Like any of the other idiots in trouble, all they have to do is somehow blame it on the Americans, lob a grenade at the American embassy somewhere in the world and all is forgiven!

  • Kent

    But Johny, no matter their intentions they gave Jordinians a chance to make their own judgment. Bravo. And thanks, Layla

  • Kent

    Yes, excellent irony, but Johny, no matter their intentions they gave Jordinians a chance to make their own judgment. Bravo. And thanks, Layla

  • Layla

    John B, thanks, that works just fine, except using wordpad instead as the file is too large for notepad.

    American Mick (#338) says such flattering things about my little bedouin Arabic, but yes, (((((((Abu Selam is majnoon, and also mish kwais katheer.)))))))) Why do people make bad pictures? Because someone buys bad pictures. ((((((Abu Salem and his friends give money for bad pictures.)))))) They sit in internet café, the kind with the screens not facing the door, and look at bad pictures. In the internet café, someone has a credit card. This is how they give money to the woman to make the picture with the animal. Their religion tells them to respect women, but they don’t respect women. They buy dirty pictures. Maybe she has a baby and the father does not help her. She needs a job for the baby, a good job. But there is only a job with dogs. So Abu Selam gives money to the internet cafe to see a picture with dogs. (((((((The bad picture is because of the money of Abu Selam.))))))))

    The same scene is repeated in many internet cafes and western women quickly learn to size up the harassment potential based on screens facing the walls and the presence of shebab with glazed eyes. Then there are the satellite dishes in Jordan. The large ones are reputed to be for porn and causes female neighbors to be wary. You don’t have to pay extra for the porn channels. You pay for the package, then you have to disable the porn. I don’t think you have the option of not paying for the porn portion. This is what Abu Selam and his friends should question and maybe even boycott if it does not fit their religion. I suppose they will blame the West for that too.

    Fialisa (#336) What does the west think about Muslins? Nothing. We have freedom of religion, so whatever someone thinks inside the house is no problem. If someone says little green men will come and take them to the moon, this is no problem. We do not have religion in the school. We do not have religion in the government. The religion is private, not public. In this way we can change the government and not change the religion.

    My friend at work is a Muslim who covers her hair outside the house. She works in the government and wears the scarf. She is the only Moslem in the office. When she wants to pray, her supervisor goes out of his office and she prays in the supervisor’s office. She drives a car to work. She lives two streets from a mosque. On Sunday she teaches Koran to the sisters in the mosque, so they read and understand the Koran for themselves. The men pray upstairs, and the sisters pray downstairs.

    In the West we have a saying, “A picture is worth a thousand words.” The Danish pictures of your Prophet are not an insult and they are not a representation of the Prophet. They are only ideas. In the West, this is how we solve problems.

    Think about Abu Graib. For 30 years Saddam Hussein killed people and no one stopped him. Then some Americans started doing bad things in Abu Graib and in not even one year, it stopped. How did they stop it? With pictures. Everyone saw the pictures, they talked, and they said there was a problem. Then, Abu Graib stopped.

    In every country and people there is good and bad. How do you stop the bad people? With pictures and talk, with understanding and truth. Now there is a problem with Islam: killing in New York, killing at a wedding in Jordan, burning embassies. They say “Allahu akbar”, then they do bad things. The Moslem people need to see pictures and talk. Is this Islam?

  • Abu selam

    (((It gives no God except ALLAH and Mohammed is its prophet)))

    (((((((((((((((((((Oh of animals you are dirty people on earth))))))))))))))))))))))
    You have caricatures over prophet Mohammed peace is with prophet Mohammed and with all prophets,
    ((((((((((((((because you are dirty animals are You are devil!!!!!))))))))))))
    I legend you 4 things
    1- You say the (ALLAH) have son, You are liars!!! !!!Jesus was prophet peace is with Jesus prophet!
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!((( ALLAH)))has no son (((ALLAH is only one)))!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    2 – Your men marrying with men exactly like people of (LOT) prophet, and you make bad, and we meadows which has ALLAH with its peoples made, has punishes sent!!!
    3 – Your wives marry women!!!!
    4 – You make for films dog fickt your wives in film and it sell to these films!!!
    is the human???
    Is that your democracy???
    Is that your liberty???
    Is that your Mrs. right???
    Is that your peace???
    (((((((Shit for you you are devil)))))
    ((((((Shit for you you are animals)))))

  • Safiea Y

    Welcome me once again and for the final time. and this message goes out to all those who are trying to defend what;s being going on. We should stop writing here, only because no matter how much we try and convince others on how we think or try to accept us it will never happen., until Youm Al-Qiyamma. let all theses people say what they want to say and curse all they want to curse if we STOP writing, inshallah they’ll get the point. ALLAH MA`ASABREEN!!! ALLAHU AKBAR WALAILAHA ILLAH WAHDAHO LASHARIKALAK, LAHUL MULK WAHUL HAMD YEYIWAYMOOT WAHOWA KOULI SHAYEN KADEER. All-mighty Allah says, I am with the patient!!!!

    Salamu Alaykum

  • An American Mick

    Wa ‘alaykum sabakh, ia Safiea Y. Adios.

  • aamina

    all i want to say is if you hav something bad to say about somebodys religion keep it to yourself because we all hav different cultures and religions so get use to the fact everybody wants to be right so if you cant say anything nice dont say anything at all and islam might hav been by the point of a sword but then again most religions were since it was time of war but that doesnt keep us into our religion ppl can change religion if they want yet most of them dont why?because of moral fibre and faith that there is someone who created this earth and therefore we all hav a base of the same material and we going to live together so get use to bending a lil and try to be more sensitive towards others religion itself is a sensitive topic and not all muslims are bad just because a few went bad doesnt mean all is the same as you might find murder’s who are jews or christian or wateva but it doesnt make the religion bad and about the cartoons look at it like this if someone hurt a preist or something or mocked your prophet or god/s would you not hav protested or been angry?
    may god bless us all and forgive us if we hav wronged and hav mercy on those who dont see any goood in the world and all the bad!

  • How ’bout everyone in the world sign an affidavit stating that we will not tarnish the image of muhammed in any way. Will that stop the violence and irrational behavior? Besides, I think muslims do a good job of tarnishing his image and the image of islam on their own anyways.

  • Abu selam

    (((It gives no God except ALLAH and Mohammed is its prophet)))

    (((((((((((((((((((Oh of animals you are dirty people on earth))))))))))))))))))))))
    You have caricatures over prophet Mohammed peace is with prophet Mohammed and with all prophets,
    ((((((((((((((because you are dirty animals are You are devil!!!!!))))))))))))
    I legend you 4 things
    1- You say the (ALLAH) have son, You are liars!!! !!!Jesus was prophet peace is with Jesus prophet!
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!((( ALLAH)))has no son (((ALLAH is only one)))!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    2 – Your men marrying with men exactly like people of (LOT) prophet, and you make bad, and we meadows which has ALLAH with its peoples made, has punishes sent!!!
    3 – Your wives marry women!!!!
    4 – You make for films dog fickt your wives in film and it sell to these films!!!
    is the human???
    Is that your democracy???
    Is that your liberty???
    Is that your Mrs. right???
    Is that your peace???
    (((((Shit for you you are devil)))
    ((((Shit for you you are animals))

  • aamina says, “if someone hurt a preist or something or mocked your prophet or god/s would you not hav protested or been angry?”

    Sure ammina, I would be angry, might even protest, but I wouldn’t think to threaten peoples lives over it. That’s the difference between being a civil human being. Scripture says judge not lest you be judged in the same light along with the ever popular vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. So to me, this means I can be unhappy about what goes on, but it is not my place to judge anyone or seek revenge on them. Again, the difference between being a civil human being and belonging to the faith of islam is that the imams preach just the opposite. They preach violence and revenge basing it on the teachings of their prophet (muhammed) and their bible (quran).

    The behavior of the global muslim community is evidence of a lack of tolerance to the nth degree. Without tolerance, we all perish.

  • Abu selam

    To (((((((((((Bush_W_Dog usa Devil))))))))))))

    western one waves is animal become to live like pigs and then say which we to live a democracy to say we to live liberty that is cathedral of you or to say humanly, that is greets denies in Iraq {Abu qreib} has it seen which your Army made it that humanly?????????? You are dirty and dirty and dirty!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have ground made dirty. You are wrong humans and you are correct devil devil your wives naked made and does not say to you that is democracy that is liberty to you point not who is your father is. You are feast humans you are correct devil

  • Abu selam, me thinks you protest too much…

    Wonder what it is you hide about yourself? You seem to have a preoccupation with homosexuality and bestiality. Howcome? I’ve never seen a woman have sex with a dog….howcome you have?

    Are you blaming everyone in the west for your addiction to porn? Does that mean you should be blamed for the terrorist acts perpetrated by your brothers/sisters?

  • Abu selam

    I ask you Dog is not animals???

    Why your wives make film with dog Sexele?????? That is human???????????????
    (((((((((Shit for you you are dirty animals)))))))))))))

  • Jim

    Abu Selam, you really ought to take this on the road. It’s kind of like beat poetry after a while. Work on the rhythm, though.

  • JimmyD

    Jim,

    I’ve not had a chance to read everything posted on this website but I did want to point out something. The Right to Free Speech as contained in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution is not an absolute right. Indeed the U.S. Supreme Court has specifically ruled in the past that there are times when the Government can curtail free speech such as yelling “Fire!” in a crowded theatre because of the foreseeable harm from such an act. While I certainly do not condone the violence that has erupted across the Muslim world and in Europe on account of these Danish cartoons, at the same time I’m not sure that if they were published in the U.S., they would be considered legal. Take it from a reasonableness standard. If a reasonable person would know that publishing these cartoons would lead to the powderkeg that it did, isn’t there some responsibility on the part of the papers for not creating that situation. Isn’t this like the situation of yelling “Fire” in a crowded theatre?

    Just some thoughts.

  • aamina

    i mean no harm but just to say nobody is right and nobody is wrong who is to judge?is there not a god?who is all merciful and forgiving for ppls mistakes and wrong doings is there not a higher power who is to judge us for judging others?do we not all believe there is a creator?so why fight if none is right nor wrong and life is nothing but a huge test to get us in the here after? a mere test to test faith and mercy in us all?it is not right to threat but then it is not right to threat a religion nor mock it or its believes the ppl who hav threatened god hav mercy on them and bestow his blessings on them for they are mislead and in need of guidance let us think about it in a way where for them 100000 lives wouldnt make up for a lost religion! so before giving any bitchy or comments with no base think your debate over and think with your heads and not your hearts for a heart carry’s personal issues!

  • Johndoe

    I am so glad that the Incas & Mayas had the Sun as their gods.

  • Jim

    Jimmy,

    Thanks for writing. Let me just point out that political cartoons harsher than these are legally published in the United States nearly every day.

  • An American Mick

    aamina,

    The people who are threatening, burning, kidnapping, and killing are wrong. People think that, and presumably any decent god would think so, too.

  • aamina

    i agreed with that but not all ppl knows that, you should know ppl come from different upbringing where nothing is more important than an amana a promise which means your word is your honour and your word is your religion so i do not say tey are right if you look at the quraan or islam it fights against violence and doesnt encourage it but if its a fight for religion ins a fight for a stable liveing in the here after in other words if you die for your religion it is known as you hav died a marter and a marter has the highest place in heaven and ppl obey by the rules so its wrong but then so is the cartoons!

  • aamina

    oops my english sucks sorry :)

  • An American Mick

    Jimmy D,

    The standard is not that anything that offends someone is illegal. The standard is that speech that intentionally ENDANGERS others could be. American culture has always held dear the concept that it’s not only acceptable, but often advisable and productive to express thoughts and opinions in a provocative manner. It is not, and never should be, illegal in the US to offend someone with your speech.

  • An American Mick

    aamina,

    I do understand your points, though. And I appreciate your fair-minded discussion of them. I do believe that Arabs have some things to be angry about, as do most people. There are many people posting here who are open to contrary opinions, but who just can’t accept the argument that violence is justified by any offensive/provocative speech or cartoons.

    Well spoken! Your English isn’t so bad…

  • aamina

    its probably form where i come we all united and all from different religions yet we stand up for each other like there was a protest today and muslims,christains,jews,hindus etc were protesting and not in a violent way of cause it would go against the principals of islam but instead broadcasted our freedom of speech and prayed that god could give us guidance and safe guard his beloved prophets name prayer is beta than any protest or violance!

  • aamina,

    You say that violent protests would “go against the principles of islam”.

    With that being said, why do so many muslims protest violently and commit violent acts in the name of islam?

    I too appreciate your willingness to be open about your faith and post your thoughtful comments here rather than babbling some in coherent broken thoughts about satan and the west.

  • aamina

    wat ppl do for there religion might not always be from the book they fight instead for god they fight for the hatred within there hearts thats why once again i say think with your head and not your heart for in the heart lies personal issues and wen the 2 mixes it cause violence war fight etc so i wont lie muslims hav to think through there way of handling things no protesting will help Allah’s most beloved prophet is Nabi Moghammed(saw) so instead of violence speak to the one who created the prophet(saw) and ask Allah/God to safe guard the beloved prophets name and honour for islam wont die out because of this cartoon but will grow stronger and improve there faith if they follow the book!

  • An American Mick

    aamina,
    Western cultures hold freedom sacred, above even our own lives and religions, because without those freedoms our religion would be dictated to us, and life would not be worth living. Some of us believe God gave us those rights, and some of us believe we siezed them for ourselves from tyrants who oppressed us. What is important to remember about us is that we will not give up those freedoms, and we will not have ANY religion thrust upon us by anyone, no matter how strongly they believe in that religion.

    Also, no matter what any of us thinks or feels about opinions expressed in print or speech or protest, we will defend with our very lives the freedom of even our opponents to express them.

    We are outraged by violence against people who express their opinions. We express that outrage in print or speech or protest, but not violence. When people tell us to shut up or to speak about our feelings in a particular way, we do not, and will not listen. We siezed the right to express our opinions the way we see fit – without violence – and we won’t give up that right.

  • American Mick,

    RE:405, I was with you until the last line…we did in fact fight a war with the British in order to be free…didn’t we? I would count that as violence.

    Everything else though….right on brah!

  • An American Mick

    Oh, I meant expressing our opinions without violence, not seizing our freedom without violence.

    Oh, VERY violent we become when someone tries to take the rights away!

    LOL. I can see where it looked like that…

  • aamina

    i said im totally against violence and islam itself doesnt teach violence and evreybody has freedom to speech i agree with that too so that mean ppl hav the right to protest well without violence though!
    well from my point of view we hav a right to religion as well dont we?
    and because of this right we hav a right to stand up for wat we believe in?
    and if we really hav a right to religion then why is there still oppression against religions?
    so why wen it comes to freedom of speech everybody is quick to jump and speak there mind but if someone uses there right to religion ppl seem to hav a problem with it?
    not all rights are actually given to us as stated on some piece of paper there is still oppression and rights we hav no right over! so who gives somebody the right of freedom of speech to out rule the freedom of religion which is uppose to mean you hav a right to religion and should respect all religions!

  • aamina

    once again sorry my english really sucks!LOL

  • aamina,

    Your english is good enough to convince me that there might actually be a muslim out there with common sense and compassion for others.

  • aamina

    well actually there are many its just by looking at the media ppl automatically thinks all muslims are violent killing savages which is false you cant let the whole muslim comunitie be blamed for wat some of them did!
    answer this will ya plz why if theres 1000’s of murderers who can be christain or wateva they wont say christianity or christians are all muderers or violent or evil or savages? but let there be 5 muslims muderers it will be world wide front cover of every newspaper and ppl will say they insensitive evil killers islam is a violent religion?
    let me just say something the most violent religion would be not to hav one!
    and again sorry if i offended anybody by saying this?
    one more thing if you look into muslim country’s expecially makkah and medina you’ll find they the most peacfull people or country on earth they can leave shops open without having to worry about ppl breaking in there brotherely bond is stronger than a real brother and sister or brother and brother bond they are known to be passive and very laid back!

  • Layla

    I can’t understand abu salem either. When he says “you are liars, Allah has no son”,this seems to show disrespect for Christianity. He also seems like 3 or 4 people with varying levels of English proficiency…probably whoever sits down at a public internet cafe terminal. Do they want everyone to change their religion to Islam? or do they just want to insult anyone who isn’t like them?

    The name abu salem–does this means “father of peace”? In the Middle East, someone without a son might be given a name that indicates something they like. For instance someone who likes tea might be “Um shai” mother of tea. Yasser Arafat, (no children) was called abu shiffa (in some places) “father of lips” because he liked to kiss so much. If you watch Arabs greet each other, it is a kiss on each cheek for friends, then a third kiss on the opposite check for very special friends or great excitement at seeing them. Arafat didn’t stop with three–he would kiss foreheads then go back to the cheeks….so is Abu Salem just trying to be a jerk, or is this hate speech, and it is speech after all and not violence, some kind of baby step toward communication?

    Get your matches ready. Here is a link to a picture of Mariyam the mother of Jesus getting ready to ah breastfeed, ah, or something, promoting MOSLEM artist Ben Chikha’s anti-semitic plays and paid for at public expense by the Belgium ministry of culture.

    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/287

    And here is what can happen to the tax exempt status of a church that speaks out against the war. The minister of our church, who has both spoken out and written against the war, calls it “the price of discipleship”:

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-allsaints7nov07,0,6769876.story?coll=la-home-headlines

  • Jim

    aamina wrote:

    “let me just say something the most violent religion would be not to hav one!
    and again sorry if i offended anybody by saying this?”

    Well, aamina, speaking as someone without religion, I can tell you that to me, your statement is parallel in its intensity to those comics in Denmark — it is saying that my religious viewpoint is the most violent possible. And as one of many anti-war atheists, I can tell you that factually-speaking, your comment is quite inaccurate.

    And yet, although I strongly disagree with you… I completely embrace your right to say what you just said. More than that — I am glad you said what you said rather than holding it inside you to simmer and stew. I think ideas like yours are better stated than left unsaid because now we can examine them and talk about them. How much better to do this than to let everything turn into quiet resentment!

    I am glad you are embracing your right to free speech, even when it is used to say something I feel is not right. And I am glad you use your freedom of religion to practice whatever religion you feel is appropriate. All I ask is that you allow me my free speech and my freedom of religion, as I am more than happy to give that to others.

    If everybody is free to speak and believe as they will, then the worst that can happen is that we’ll say things that other people don’t like. If that’s the worst that can happen, that’s not bad at all!

    Thanks very much for writing here, aamina. I appreciate the opportunity to listen to what you have to say.

  • aamina

    firstly names are given just like christian names because of there meaning not for something liked or did well yet ppl were given names more like charecteristics for instance the prophet(saw) was called al sadiq which is trustworthy

    secondly muslims dont wanna change anybody but people seem to want to change them as to fit in with others all there moralfibre to fit with the west dont get me wrong i live in the west and i obey the rules and wouldnt move near the east but just because ppl wont change there culture to fit in ppl hav a problem and want to change the culture within them

    thirdly the kissing on the cheek is to show unity and its not about friends or anything you greet with 3 kisses as 3 was the sunnah number which mean 3 was the way the prophet (saw) did things

  • aamina

    i didnt mean it like that jim let me rephrase i was kinda meaning more like a religion that has no base or moral fibre sorry if i offended you i neva knew my phrasing of words would make it sound harsh and i’ll try to watch my english it makes a huge dfference if theres a word out of place lol!

  • Layla

    Aamina speaks the truth. They do not steal in the Middle East, at least it is very rare. If you forget something in a shop and go back the next day, they will have it for you.

  • An American Mick

    aamina,

    If 1000s of murderers who happened to be Christian murdered IN THE NAME of Christianity (which many have done in the past, I agree), then it would make sense for Moslems to think Christians tend to murder a lot. Well, I’d have to say that in fact Christians have tended to murder a lot. But if murderers who happen to be Christian murder for other reasons, it’s not logical to associate their murders with Christianity.

    If 1000s of Moslems commit the vilest of terrorist acts against innocent people all over the world IN THE NAME OF ISLAM, and IN THE NAME OF MOHAMMED, how can you expect others NOT to think that a lot of Moslems support terrorism? If thousnads of imams express support or don’t condem terrorism, how can you expect us NOT to associate terrorism with Islam?

  • Layla

    And the violence started on a Friday. That means all of these people suddenly got the same idea at the same time when they came out of the mosques.

  • Bjarne

    And now it is Friday in Denmark, so let me start the war.. No joke sorry my insane reply.
    I have listen to yours reply Jim. American Mick, and Layla. You are clever people and i think
    we are very alike my self, i have said a lot of bullshit so far! But i have learn a lot in
    the past time, your site is very nice, sorry for stupid me.

  • Bjarne

    At the moment a lot is going on in Denmark 2 internt sites are established 1 kalled Forsoningnu.dk and 1 called anotherdenmark.org. And many people have reply with ther signature to appologise for the Danish behavour abou the cartoons. My self is a bit confused about this, but we have a saing in Denmark about us = Danes are smiling mainjacks. We have a King family for 1000 years in direct line, and no Revolution so i my opinion that is the problem with Denmark.

  • Bjarne

    Don’t be afraid to reply, i’ll will behave civiliced in my reply.

  • aamina

    tell me this why did terrorism start in the first place?
    was it not of a war?
    the whole terrosim started with osama bin ladin which i agree is a terrorist but it started as a defence in palestine with the war where ppl had no arms and the next best thing for them was to hav suicide bombing aimed at milletery targets
    since then ppl hav the impresion all muslims are terrorist the ony place or only reason there are is because of wars this is because muslims in war intend extremist which our religion does not allow if you look muslims in western places itself you would c they civilised and dont attempt stupid things like suicide bombing
    india for exampl they had a lil war between muslims and christains yet they didnt go to the extreme of bombing themselfs up and yet they hav settled things now!
    so not everything shouldnt be handle with violence and as far as im concerned no religion encourages violence
    ppl who become violent for religion isnt really fighting because of religion but like i said the hatred within there own hearts towards ppl!

  • Layla

    CHECK THIS OUT:

    http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/boycott-egypt.html

    This website claims the cartoons were published by a large newspaper IN EGYPT in October DURING RAMADAN and no one noticed. They claim to show scans of the newspaper.

    Mluheeya boycott, anyone?

    You’re right Bjarne, it’s Friday in the Middle East already and I don’t know what to burn after the mosque today. I’m so confused.

  • Bjarne

    On a French Cafe was servant. He served as a servant He talk like a servant He moved like a servant
    He was a perfect servant. But i fact He was just playing a servant.
    To be or to be nut that is the question.

  • Bjarne

    Yes in October in The Ramadan and no one said a word about it.

  • Bjarne

    to aamina.
    In fact it started when suicide bombers i Lebanon where Shia muslims blow an American Military Base and Kill about 220 Americans.

  • Bjarne

    After that time i thougt that the Shia Muslims was the bad guy. Then i vent to Pakistan to findt out what Taliban was up to 2 mdr before 9/11. But there i found out that in Pakistan the bad guys was Sunni Muslim not shia. How i found out : I travel north in Pakistan to Hunza and there i become friends with the people there they were Ismaili Muslims and they was the only Muslims in Pakistan there drink alcohol an was have the right to do that by Pakistan Goverment they make there own wine. They was Shia and told me they have no problems with the other Shia muslims exept the Sunni have they big problems with. This Ismali muslims was a former Kingdom ther leader is Aga Khan who live in exile in France. So i found out that this people have no mosque but a Prayer House where they went 2-3 times a day if they had spare time. The speak perfct English all of them because Aga Khan said to them that they must understand the world.

  • Bjarne

    But thanks god i went out of Pakistan berfore 9/1. If not maby today i spend rest of my live in Guatanmo Bay!!

  • Layla

    In jordan they arrested the first publisher, then they found out the second paper published it a month earlier, so they had to go arrest that one two. but no one noticed it in jordan either.

    It’s bedtime in america, but I will try to give my first impression, Bjarni. The first website is interesting because it puts the question of solving the problems back on the governments. right now the problem is driven by public opinions, especially the opinion of the Arab Street, which is controlled by the mosques. The second website makes me sad. “Greetings that do not meet the purpose of this site’s claim to create more tolerance and respect will not be published.” America has never been occupied (except from the viewpoint of the indians) so i don’t know what I can say. Denmark is a small country , a small army etc. I don’t see mutual “respect ” in these websites. i see fear. I have heard that all the school lunches have been changed to halal meat for all the children. From some of the poepl writing on this site, it seems the real problem is unemployment, both in Denmark and Afghanistan, probably other places too. that is what they should be rioting in the streets about: quality of life, not some stupid cartoon.

  • Bjarne

    Sory for my English but im not a Educated guy like the rest of the guy on this site. Only 7 years in Shool. I was a seaman in my youth and learn English from mouth to ear.

  • Bjarne

    to Layl I agree. Here in Denmark it is 7 in the morning. But one More fact Osama bin Laden was in the start freedomfighter paid by the Americans to fight the Russians in Afghanistan, and all of Taliban is educated in Pakistan Quran shools.

  • n_beck

    one thing you should have to consider along with Bjarnes post.
    all the events happening in the world has its “black” font. islam is the religion of peace but muslims may not be i think. there are some people that leads their work in the uniform of islam. we cannot call anybody as kahfir because our prophet mentioned it as a big sin. anyway oneday comes in which people will learn how the islam is really great.

  • An American Mick

    Bjarne, you’re correct. The U.S. government foolishly supported Osama bin Laden financially and militarily because he opposed the Soviets in Afghanistan. It was an opportunistic attempt to use bin Laden’s opposition to the Soviet invasion to weaken an already crumbling Soviet Union. There were disastrous consequences for us.

    The U.S. government also foolishly supported Saddam Hussein when he seized dictatorship of Iraq, and the U.S. was his strongest supporter until he invaded Kuwait. The U.S. thought he was the lesser of several evils. Who were we to say?

    These are just two of the reasons many Americans object to many of our government’s foreign policies, and those who are not apathetic voice their concerns loudly. Sometimes those concerns are heard and make a difference.

    The U.S. is a 230 year old democratic nation, formed by former colonists who valued their freedoms more than their lives. 230 years is pretty young, as nations go. We are far from perfect, but I think we have built one of the MOST perfect democracies in history. We have a Constitution that has, so far, withstood constant attack, and will always require constant defense by the citizens it protects from government excess.

    I know we’re not always right. But I think we’re right a lot more than we’re wrong, and I think the world is a far better place for what we’ve accomplished. If one can imagine how the world might be without the US, through two world wars and many other crises, one might think we may not have, in fact, come from the devil. One might think that we’ve done the world a lot more good than bad.

    We have to work on eliminating the bad. I assure you, we will.

  • An American Mick

    aamina,

    re: #422. I understand where terrorism began. The Irish and the Japanese have also made effective use of suicide bombing. The Irish who blew up civilians were terrorists. The Japanese who blew up US Navy ships were not, nor were (I think) the Irish who blew up military targets.

    The World Trade Center was not a military target. Neither are British subways or Indonesian dance clubs. No war can justify targeting civilians. If Moslem radicals want to make targeting civilians the new international standard, they should understand that it would most certainly not tilt the balance in their favor.

  • Bjarne

    Thank you American Mick.
    Now i want to speak about Iran. In 1968 there was a big Coronation feast in Iran about Irans 2000 years
    Kingdom. All the celebraty people in the world including Denmarks former King Frederik 9.
    In that feast every day they get plenty of food from rest of the world suppleied by Airliners.
    In the front was Shah Reza, in that time Iran has the most modern army totaly equipped with
    American weapons bought from oil money. They spend Billions of Danisk Kr on that feast.
    A few years later Shah Reza must escape to America, because the Islam Ayatolah Khomeni took
    over and make Iran to the biggest threat for America now. But like Iraq US know they have massdestruction weapons.
    Of course America is the supplyer of this weapon. And the rest you know, i just mention on word more
    The Contra Scandal.

  • I belive my first recollection of terorist attacks (ones who target civilians indiscriminantly) was in Munich in ’72. Again, it was muslim “extremeists”. What a coincidence.

    Another reason why most associate terrorists with muslims is not only are they the ones committing the acts, but it does not seem that the moderate muslims around the world make much effort to stop them or even speak out against these murderous attacks. It’s like they condone all the violence without actually participating. they seem to feel if they don’t participate that they can still call their faith peaceful one. I’m sorry but just because the majority of muslims do not commit terrorist acts does not make the faith a peaceful one. If the west is so evil, tell me, why do muslims live here? Why do you not move to a country where the taliban is welcome?

    Americans do not make the policy in Israel nor do we enforce it, but because we are a “friend” to that country, we are hated by all arabs. We did not start nor participate in the 6 (or was it 7) day war which seemed to escalate the tensions in the middle east but we are held responsible for all that has happened to the palestinian people.

    Why is we as americans can come to terms with and admit to mistakes that we’ve made, but talk to a muslim about his faith and the terrorists/extremists and the subject automatically turns to the israelis, the palestinians, or some other past injustice they feel has been committed without ever addressing their own visciousness. Why do muslimes never admit to mistakes or take responsibility for their own?

  • An American Mick

    Bjarne,
    The Contra scandal caused an uproar among Americans. Every government does questionable things. Not every government answers to its citizens, like ours does. No citizens anywhere are 100% successful in righting the wrongs of their government. The bravest try, and we do try. We often remember our failures and forget our successes, do we not? Perhaps that is best.

  • Layla

    What’s white and flies 300 miles over Ireland? Lord Mountbatten’s sneakers. (sport shoes). hehehe If you tell this joke to the Irish, they will get mad because they don’t like to be reminded they killed a civilian: the British Lord Mountbatten on his private boat.

    People had a lot of sympathy for the Irish before this. The Irish always went to America to get money for their fight, and individual Americans gave them a lot of money.

    So Osama is just another unemployment problem. He lost his gig with the CIA and had to find a new job. Unless you believe Osama stills works for the CIA and he has gotten them a huge budget increase with a job security and political power for years to come. So employment is the solution to terrorism?

    n_beck: I don’t understand (#433) about why you cannot call anyone kafir. A kafir is someone who is Moslem and then changes religion? (and then it is okay to kill this person for changing religion?) Can you say someone is a bad Moslem? (if they don’t kill you) Is this in the Koran so I can see it?

  • An American Mick

    Bjarne, you can be confident of one thing: we Americans are probably more self-critical than any other people on Earth. I could be wrong about that, but that is my perception.

  • Jim

    No, we aren’t, Mick. Damn us! We always make such mistakes! Why do we Americans make mistakes so often? Damn! ;)

    Seriously, I think maybe the Germans in the 1970s and 1980s might qualify as pretty darned self-critical, which was a good thing because they had a lot to be self-critical about!

  • An American Mick

    Jim,
    Yeah, now that you point out the Germans, you’re probably right. They have seemed to carry a lot of national guilt over the Holocaust (which I’m pretty sure did in fact happen, since the Nazis were meticulous record-keepers).

  • Bjarne

    To day in a Danish Mosque the infamous Imam Abu Laban(In Danish Emythology word a laban is a bully)
    he challenge the Dutch woman Ayan Hirse, known from the film Intermission she made togheter with
    Theo van Gogh that been killed by a “Black” front (according to #433 n_beck).
    Dear Ayan please don’t do it. This man is obligated to murder you maby his hiding a gun in his turban!

  • Bjarne

    no Johny Logic.
    The first terrorist acton i Germany was made by Rote Arme Fraktion leaded by
    Adreas Baader and Gudrun Enselin (who later comit “suicide” in a German prison).
    This people work funny enough together with “Black” front Islamic groups.

  • DOOMSday

    I’m TURK and muslim. I’m writing message TURKISH now.
    Allah (c.c.) ‘in rahmeti,bereketi ve selami “O”‘na inananlarin, gonderdigi peygamberlere inananlarin uzerine olsun insallah. “O”na inanmayanlari ve gonderdiklerine iman etmeyenleri de yine “O”na havale ederim.

    Bir ayet vardir Kitab’i Mubin’de: “Siz onlardan olmadikca onlar sizi aralarina almazlar”. Evet, herseyi bu ayet etrafinda toplar ve degerlendirirsek, yapilan bunca zulme bir anlam vermek hicte zor olmayacaktir.Cunki biz onlardan degiliz ve onlardan olmaya da hic niyetimiz yoktur.Eger onlar bizden olmak isterseler, kapilarimizi ve gonlumuzu ardina kadar acar, davet ederiz.Kardesimiz olarak kabul eder, herseyimizi paylasiriz.Ancak karsimizda olmaya devam ederler ve bizim kutsallarimizla alay etmeye dalga gecmeye devam ederlerse, karsilarinda tahmin bile edemeyecekleri bir azapla ve gucle karsilasirlar.O zaman onlarin kurup durduklai armageddon senaryolari kendi baslarina patlar ve onlari Allah(c.c.)’tan baska kurtaracak bir gucu de bulamazlar.Zaten iman etmedikleri bir gucten yardim dilenmek, modern bir avrupaliya ve amerikaliya yakısmaz .Bakalim o zaman nereye siginacaklar?

    Tevfik Allah(c.c.)’tandir.

    Tum mumin kardeslerime selamlar,sabirlar diliyorum.
    Selamunaleykum…

  • An American Mick

    Does anybody understand Turkish?

  • As most muslims belive, we should adhere to their laws and customs, therefore we must all go out and learn Turkish to understand Doomsday’s post…I think.

  • Bjarne

    I understand a little Turkish but with my limited understanding
    he talk about his famous book Koran and tell us in a way the same
    thing that Abu selam over and over again tell us = not very important!
    I’m thinking he is Kurdisk because to day in Konya (were many kurdish people
    live) has been a flagburning of Danish and US flags

  • Bjarne

    I think this boycot of Danish items, is very profitable for Denmark.
    Try to search for buy danish on Google. You get 14.000.000 hits.

  • An American Mick

    Yes, Bjarne, I’m buying as much Danish cheese and other Danish stuff as I can. It’s my little contribution to freedom of speech in Denmark, as well as to my cholesterol levels.

  • Layla

    Abu Laban being the same Danish imam who was somehow involved with the 3 fake cartoons that started the first violence in Gaza.

    Konya was the location of the monastery of Rumi, the Moslem mystic who welcomed Christians. I think Konya was also a religious center in pagan times.

    Carlsberg beer has no cholesterol (but it’s not approved by koran). If you can find Danish bacon in a can, it’s better than anything I have ever tasted. Danish pumpernickel in the little square package from the Scandinavian deli is good for building smorbrod. It’s a small but solid and healthy bread that you can pile meats, condiments, pickles, etc. on top of for an open-faced Dagwood sandwich. For the kids, think Legos.

  • Bjarne

    To Layla
    Yes it is the same Laban.Today he had faced new problems he had called a radial politican
    by name Naser Khader who is a god man, for a rat in Copenhagen Mosque today. It is a matter
    of Honor insulting, thats a criminal act in Denmark and probaly Laban must face trial.
    Konya is a very central city in Turkey, all Koran school in Tyrkey go there. They have Mevlana Takesim
    It is that Monastery that the Mystic Sufi Dervish Mevlana used to be. You now the Whirling Dervis wiht Red hat and white clohtes they are the deciples of Mevlana a very central figure in Tyrkish Religion.

  • Bjarne

    In Afghanistan Taliban has set a Reward on 100 KG Solid gold to that man who kill the Editor of Jyllands Posten, and 25 KG gold for every killed Danish soldier.

  • Bjarne

    Hej Layla
    Time is 5 in Denmark so i sleep now. But i have a joke i heard the first time i was in Turkey:
    It was during Turkeys War against Britain i Galipoli where Ataturk Mustafa Kamel became a legend.

    On the beach of Galipoli 2 soldiers talking togheter,one Australian and one from England.
    The Australian said :I came here to die, and the English reply : Oh I came yester day.

  • n_beck

    i know turkish well
    DOOMS is talking about quraan. adn says that its mentioned inquraan like
    “they do not accept you unless you are one of them” so in order to be in peace muslims are not going to be one of mthem but we welcome them and ready to share everything we have. and if they continue thair behaviour Allah one day gives them a great disaster that they would find nothing to shelter except Allah.and so forth…

  • n_beck

    Layla,i know the definition of kafir. i actually meant when we knew little about somebody and when you are not sure its not suggested to conclude as kafir.
    i do not have much information about saddam huseyin and about imam of edenmark but i think that there may be more reasons for thier acts done.

  • An American Mick

    n_beck, are you saying that if saddam hussein or that imam in Denmark did something we don’t like, we should keep in mind that there may be reasons for their actions that we just don’t know about? If so, are you also willing to apply that same “logic” to things you think have been done wrong by others, say, non-Moslems or Americans or Europeans?

  • Layla

    n_beck says (#433): “all the events happening in the world has its “black” font. islam is the religion of peace but muslims may not be i think. there are some people that leads
    their work in the uniform of islam. we cannot call anybody as kahfir because our prophet
    mentioned it as a big sin.”

    I think I made a mistake about the definition of kayfir. I’m not Moslem and it’s hard to keep track of whether a passage is about unbelievers, hypocrites, mushrikoon, or idolaters, or if they are the same. But here I think the definition of kayfirs means Christians and Jews and maybe some others.

    Here is a website that says it is okay to attack kayfirs with weapons: “Jihad talab means attacking the kuffaar in their own lands until they become Muslim or pay the jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.”

    http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=26125&dgn=4

    There is more about jihad on this website. He is against “peaceful coexistence” and says it is a required religious duty to attack kafirs. In fact, he sounds like he has a bomb in his turban.

    http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&QR=34830

    but according to n_beck the Prophet says it’s not okay to call anybody kafir (which I can not find in Koran) I think this means you can not know something happened if you did not see it or you can not see what is in someone’s heart. So someone like Saddam, who is said not to be religious, you cannot know the truth.

    So how do you help someone like this to be a good Moslem?

    Here is a joke for Bjarne: Saddam Hussein wanted to buy some tanks for his army, so he went to the French because he heard the French tanks had 1 speed forward and 4 speeds reverse. Hee hee

  • Bjarne

    Hej Layla Today i have debated on a Danish Web site, but it was very frustrating. A very few Muslims was writhing 80% of the Danes, just cry out about their prejudice about bad muslims. They just make a statement and don’t look at what other people had said. Sad show!

  • An American Mick

    Layla,
    Re: #459 – Thank you for that reference! That about sums it up, doesn’t it? How can any Moslem say with any seriousness, in view of Mohammed’s command to kill us all unless we submit to Islam, that Islam is a peaceful religion? Mohammed’s own words prove them to be hypocrites. Either they discount Mohammed’s words as irrelevant, or they want to convince us of a lie.

    And you know that “qitaal” literally means to KILL, not simply to fight, right? Mohammed commanded Moslems to KILL all the non-believers unless they convert, or submit and pay protection money to Islam. Sort of makes it a moot point whether or not we want to live in peace with them, doesn’t it?

    Can any Moslem possibly respond in a way that would help us all to reconcile these teachings with the claim that Islam is a religion of peace?

  • As for post #461, very well said American Mick.

    I also didn’t get a respones from any muslim willing to explain how and why their god would reward martyrs/murderers with 70 virgins either.

  • Kent

    http://www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com
    http://www.forsoningnu.dk
    http://www.anotherdenmark.org

    Layla, Mick, Bjarne, Jim, Johnny Logic… these websites need your support, your questions and your arguments. And you might find Muslims there willing to answer some of your questions.

    And while you guys are in the joking department:

    In Denmark, a lot of refugees and immigrants from Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia, etc. are not among the most educated. They find it hard learning the language, finding jobs, and understanding the Danish ways in general. Danish companies find it hard to employ them because of those exact reasons, so these people are caught in a web of social welfare that enslaves them. In other words, being on social welfare in Denmark is similar to holding an ordinary job. Only you don’t have to work that hard to get bread on the table.

    The joke goes: If we put up caricatures of Mohamed in the social welfare offices, would Muslims boycott the social welfare cheque?

  • Jim

    Mick,

    You could say the same about the Christian Bible — there’s very overt religious-ethnic cleansing in there. Does that mean that you cannot say Christianity is a religion of peace?

    I’m just sayin’.

  • aamina

    #435

    i do agree with you on you cant justify hitting civilians and i think you’ll all agree no religion would allow you to kill an innocent so the point im really trying to make is you cant blame a religion for wat some of its follows do and expecially if those who go astray are the minority of the religion and with saying this i mena you cant judge everybody who follows this religion just because a minor lot of them went bad ike i said and will say again im totally against conflict and think its wrong for them to act so violently for everything that happens because there is a peacfull way to get your message through and you cant use your religion as an excuse for your actions so ppl cant say they protested violently in the name of islam if they are so religous they would hav known by acting in this way they are disgracing our religion and all the muslims who follow the book:)

  • Alp

    anyone who remembers my post about russia backing up on moslem society ?
    The camps are being sat up.

    Now as the videos of the british beating iraqis came up, there is something more to provoke people.

    My my. You still dont see it, do you ? Still just cartoons, arent they ? Run till you hit the wall, puppets.

  • Layla

    you didn’t print my post

    Koran suras 9:29 and 9:123 talk about FIGHT, as in war, not kill as in put to death or slay.

    Kill is spelled qaf ta lam. Fight is spelled qaf alif ta lam. The word in the Koran is qaf alif ta lam wow alif. This is from the Oxford English-Arabic dictionary of current usage. Are there any scholars of classical Arabic out there?

    This sura was revealed in the ninth year of the Hijra, or flight from Mecca. I think at this time the Prophet and his followers were being attacked by armies from neighboring tribes. There was also danger from within (the Hypocrites were setting up their own mosque and the Idoloters in Mecca wanted a compromise, which would have meant Allah was just another god in the pantheon and Islam would not be monotheistic like the neighboring empires). So they would have been counterattacking someone who had already attacked them, rather than a pre-emptive strike for the purpose of ethnic cleansing.

    Any Moslems who can explain this? Maybe it is a matter of different interpretation by different groups.

  • aamina

    we are not puppets if you call ppl who believe and fight for wats right are puppets that mean without us PUPPETS there wouldnt hav been religion nor rights today!

  • Jim

    Layla, if we didn’t print your post it was completely accidental — we have spam filters on to catch people selling propecia or sexual enhancement or stuff like that, and every once in a while a legit post gets mistakenly caught up in the net. My apologies.

  • aamina

    layla,i study arabic why do you ask?

  • An American Mick

    Layla,
    I was in error. I had a fat’ha on the Q, not a kasra. With a fat’ha it’s an adjective, and I was thinking it was a noun, meaning “a killing”.

    “Allah” was originally one of the minor local pagan gods; Mohammed chose that god to be the One True God. Moses did the same thing with Yahweh, a local pagan god in Moses’ time. The people of Quraish resented Mohammed’s attacks on their paganism, and that’s why he was under attack from them. Lots of people in Quraish felt he was trying to build himself a little dynasty. Seems they might have had something there.

    Of course, I agree that maybe a Moslem perspective would help here.

    Jim, the genocide of the bible is only one of the many things that turned me off to the bible and religion a long time ago. I believe that Christianity has never really been a religion of peace at all. The only real difference here, I think, is that I don’t think Jesus told his followers to fight non-believers until they were dead, or enslaved and paying heavy taxes. Mohammed specifically instructed Moslems to do just that, and so I’m wondering how Islam could be called a religion of peace at all. Neither has ever really been a religion of peace, I think.

    I think if someone drew a picture of Jesus bombing an abortion clinic, most of us would get the point. Some Christians would be deeply offended but probably wouldn’t call for the cartoonist’s execution and the burning down of buildings. It would be forgotten and we’d move on, hopefully with less abortion clinic bombings.

  • An American Mick

    aamina,
    What is your opinion of the explanations written on the web sites Layla posted in #459?

  • aamina, you say you can’t blame a religion for what some it’s followers do…what if that religion instructs its’ followers to kill all who are not of that faith? Isn’t that what the quran tells you to do? How can you not blame the faith, and its’ followers in the face of actual directives to kill others? I have known muslims who are peaceful people, but that does not make the religion a peaceful one. As I stated in earlier posts, just because you aren’t the one with the bomb does not release you from any culpability.

  • Layla

    American Mick, yes it has fatha on the qaf, so we are back where we started. I am thinking the second letter “alif” makes it the transitive verb “fight” instead of the transitive verb “kill” (both can be transitive or intransitive, so no clue there.). Here is the entire spelling with diacriticals: qaf (fat-ha); alif; ta (casera); lam (damma); wow; alif. Abdullah Yusuf Ali renders the alliteration as “qaatilul”.

    It doesn’t seem like a big difference, having someone that wants to make war against you rather than slaughter you outright, but maybe this indicates something with rules of warfare rather than targeting civilians. After one battle the Prophet killed captive soldiers (I guess he didn’t have a Guantanamo jail) including one woman, but even she was a combatant and not a civilian.

    aamina, this is the question: What is the meaning of Koran sura 9:29. The first word “qaatilu” –is it “kill” or “make war”. Also the meaning of the ayah. Do all Moslems agree about the meaning?

    A website says all Moslems must “make war” or maybe “kill” non-Muslims in their own lands if they do not take the rule of Islam. Because of Koran 9:29 and 9:123 and others.

    http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=26125&dgn=4

    This is why people are angry with Moslems and make a picture of the Prophet with a bomb in his hat. They think all Moslems want to kill all non-Moslems.

  • Layla

    okay, here is a new joke

    Two Iraqi immigrants were talking to their lawyer. Their lawyer told them to try to adapt to American culture.Six months later they visited the lawyer again. “What did you do to adapt to American culture?” the lawyer asked the first Iraqi. “I joined the business association, volunteered with the Boy Scouts, and played bingo at the alderman’s picnic.” he said. The lawyer turned to the second Iraqi and said, “What did you do to adapt to Amercan culture?” The second Iraqi turned to the first Iraqi and said, “You f*@#king raghead, why don’t you go back where you came from.”

  • An American Mick

    LOL! That’s good.

    My Arabic teacher was an Iraqi. He gave me a lot of insight into Moslem ways, in an objective, detached sort of way. I found it very enlightening. Funny, I’m a big supporter of a solution that would give Palestinians a homeland, and would be much more vocal about it if it weren’t for persistent terrorism, routine kidnappings and murders, and such. Watching innocent civilians brutally beheaded, and seeing things like the latest (Jill Carroll) hostage thing makes me hold my tongue on the issue. She’s being held in the name of Jihad for Islam, and I haven’t seen what I would think an appropriate outcry from the Moslem world for her release, and an end to these barbaric kidnappings.

    I can’t help but refuse to publicly or strongly support a Palestinian homeland until that sort of thing stops.

  • Layla

    Yet another linguistic remark for American Mick: after consulting the Hans Wehr—the more resources I look at the more convinced your original translation hit the nail on the head and since in this region the translation is often less vitriolic than the original, if anything is realistically on the conservative side even allowing for a modicum of saber-rattling. So you were right.

    All I say is the moderate Moslems do exist. I have seen them, I have lived with them, I have eaten their mansaf (with hands) and even their mlooheeyah (a vegetable like green mucous). None of them were determined to kill me, and most of them didn’t care about Palestine. The ones that did were passionate, intrusive, and unoriginal, but only on that one subject. Some of them liked me, were worried that as a Christian I would “burn,” and many were stuck in the idea that I should change to “the true religion” so I would be “safe.” Their religion was not fanatical, but was a source of inspiration for living a quietly moral and obedient life. They are good people and Islam helps them live a good life.

    My first Arabic teacher was Palestinian. He is nissawenjie (ladies man), so we discussed a lot of, uh, courtship rituals. We both taught English to Iraqis.

    I have never understood why Palestine has never declared itself a country. You know, a Nike thing, just do it. What are they waiting for? Permission? Secure borders? Israel didn’t. The Brits offered them (the Arabs) the whole country back in the 30s’ with the authority to limit Jewish immigration and they didn’t take it. As might be expected, over the years there have been a lot of remarks about “missed opportunities”.

    The biggest problem with Palestine is that both sides use blame to avoid moving forward. You know, “we” can’t do this until “they” do that. No one has a vision of the future. They should be governing themselves right now with financial assistance from the U.S. Then, either Hamas will learn how to play the game of nations, or it will involve itself in a suicidal war that will leave nothing but Gaza standing, if you can say that about Gaza.

    The text overwriting thing is happening again—the beginning of this piece wraps around the comments at the end. I have continually tweeked my terminal display past the capabilities of my bifocals, but am running out of things to tweek. It’s too much work; I can only hang in to read a few more remarks. What I can’t figure out, with all the hits they get on this, is why they don’t offer a multi-lingual “no hate” logo t-shirt, coffee cup, etc. along with some Danish freedom of speech flags and hawk it at the beginning of the piece. I suppose it will be out of the news before they could gear up…

    The kidnappings are unexceptable. We have taken respnsiblity and cleaned up our act when it needed cleaned up; I do not think they should be beyond scrutiny, or even a few cartoons.

  • An American Mick

    Layla, you’ve provided a nice insight to your experience with Moslems, and I have to say that without exception, all the Arabic teachers I knew and most of the Arabs I’ve met in my life fit the same description you’ve provided. I’ve known a few blowhard jihaddists who’s bark was worse than their bite.

    But in my work I dealt with terrorist entities who were full-tilt, and while not representative of the whole, a massive danger to the free world. The Quran seems to justify them, and does little to hold them back, once they’ve solidified their anger with Quranic scripture. We should all be thankful for a difficulty that seems to be inherent with Arab groups to agree, focus, plan, and execute as a team. But then, I think if they were to further develop those skills, jihad might begin to fade as a solution to anything.

  • Layla

    The Arab community here lacks political savvy, especially compared to other groups who know how to tell their elected officials what they want and how many people they have registered to vote. Some Arabs recognize this about their own group. It was also my own experience when I went to the mosque with information about a calling campaign. They were sympathetic to the issue I was working on, as it dovetailed with their religious values, but the comment I got was, “we tried to get them to do something like this down the street once and it didn’t work.” (This calling campaign did work and the issue we were opposing is now off the table, at least for this budget cycle.) Once again, ‘politics is local’.

  • Alp

    Aamina, I guess you have not been following the conversation from the beginning, as my posts was about the western society considering these publishments as “just cartoons” and nothing to be taken so seriously, that the moslem society was acting violent and ignorant where the freedom of speech was the serious issue here, a cartoon wasnt a thing to be fussed about, they mostly think.

    I am a moslem, who thinks that these acts on the moslem society is some part of a planned attack on moslem people, provocation, intended to create camps of christian – jew vs moslem, and is some minor steps of a globewide disturbance, and the aim of the act was to provoke moslems to make all moslems seem ignorant and savage beings.

    So, the puppet I was talking about, was western “free” minded people, still chasing after the flag some party with highly dangerous goals came up with. Please do read my previous posts before judging.

  • Alp,

    “planned attack on moslem poeple”…”make all moslems seem ignorant and savage”?! Are you serious? I know of not one muslim who has been kidnapped nor even had their heads brutally severed in the name of Christianity or Judaism.

    Although we may have a differing opinion as to what consitutes “ignorant” and/or “savage” I don’t believe the west has anything to do with the image that muslims have created for themselves. Reacting to a published insult violently and threatening innocent people with kidnapping, or even condoning it is wrong and should be condemned by all, not just the west. For the few (very few) moderate muslims who do speak out against that sort of thing it is too little and too late most times with little to no sincerety. Having a muslim speak out against the violence perpetrated by other muslims is usually a reaction to once again behavior that exposes the violent nature of the faith. Yours is the only religion I know of that advocates elimination of all others not of your faith. How do you reconcile that?

    Is it safe to say that most muslims are afraid to speak out because other muslims would target them? If that’s the case then there is a problem with the faith that needs addressing by those within, not a problem that anyone in the west should be addressing even though the only problems muslims seem to speak of are their hatred of western society and Jews./Christians.

  • What if the cartoon in question was not of the prophet muhammed but of one of the hundreds of suicide bombers with that name, would it still be a problem? Why is it not a problem for idiots to have the name of muhammed? As they break laws, tarnish the image of islam, etc. shouldn’t that be blasphemous too?

    I’ve not seen any posts by muslims that condemn the attack on the world trade center killing thousands of innocents, the bali bombings, the train bombings in Spain, or the London bombings where innocent people are routinely killed, maimed, etc. Is it because it was perptrated by muslims therefore you cannot speak out about it or is it ok to kill innocents therefore there is no need to speak out about it? Even the car bombings in Iraq seem to be indiscriminate. Are all these things ok to you?

    Is there no other way for muslims to get what they want than through violence and intimidation?

  • aamina

    well i hav been enjoying these discusions and stuff but this is where i stop great to c all your different points of view but before ppl become violent here and personal i’ll step back btw,hope you guys hav enjoyed talking to a mere 15yr old on how you’s pecieve other religions and ppls ways of acting god bless ya all!

  • Jim

    Nice to have you here, aamina. And that’s the thing: of course we won’t get violent here. Irregular Times is a free speech arena: we settle things by talking them out, not by putting anything to the torch or putting anyone’s head on the chopping block. I hope you come back some time.

  • aamina

    i’ll be sure to check in once in a whil;)

  • n_beck

    layla(#459): there is famous saying among muslimslet me tell you it: the imam of the mosque announces jihad anf says that kill all the nonbelievers or kafirs. and one of the listeners stood up and said : “if you announced this yesterday i would probable be dead by now”. besides it in the ahiret (dont know in English, its something like courtplace after the death) everything you do will be asked and graded.
    2- Prophet also once told that if someone does his namaz but treats cruelly people and/or says provocative things he is from hell.

    3-as i know in order but i m not sure in order to announce jihad, Our Prophet waited for vahyi(words from Allah) and if there was permission then they started it. so nowdays muslims
    announce jihad by analyzing those situations.

    4-sth i believe that very important. there are a lot of enemies of religions and islam as well.one of the common attacks they performlooks like act like muslims but in different manner so that to damage the image of islam. so i recommend you to just analyze them carefully and not to just conclude through media or events or rumours.

    5- there are two things in islam. one sunnas(our Prophet suggestions) and thing that we have to do its in quraan

    6-you asked: So how do you help someone like this to be a good Moslem?
    i have pretty good answer for you to this question. and i can give you this site.but as long as i respect this man’s site i do not want to announce it here. so leave your e-meil here. i ll send it to you personally.

  • n_beck

    sorry An American Mick
    i could not understand the problem you posted. my english is bery bad,though. if its really ,important can you write it agagin in more easy way, thanks.

  • n_beck

    hey guys
    as i know there is knothing that directed all muslims to kill all kafirs. its not logic. isnt it
    so, if its not logic its not roots from islam, ok got it?
    there have been a lot of attacks to muslims i nvery manner.

    how can you be so blind to refusethis fact: he at the end of his life (in 23 years,when he started his mission) he was able to gather people as much as 120 000 who are ready to die if he says them to die. if he is so perfect and generous, i think he would not spent all his life as he did in all that mess. and i think there is sth that he knows , and he did what he knew .you have to be more objective people.

  • Alp

    Johnny Logic, you persistently keep on telling that Islam orders to kill. That is not true. You do not know Islam. I have replied you previously, so I wont on that issue again.

    ” As they break laws, tarnish the image of islam, etc. shouldn’t that be blasphemous too?”
    that is what you dont understand. The thing is not tarnishing the image of islam. What angers people is it is forbidden. Completely forbidden, to draw our prophet. Even if the drawing is in a positive state. null. zero. Why do we have to tell it again and again ?

    You should respect our rights to forbid something to do. Child pornography is not considered a thing of free speech, right ? Or someone could be liking to eat human flesh, even it need not be a piece of an alive being, could be dead human flesh. Someone may want to walk around naked all his/her life. (Most of) These are not considered as free speech r movement. You dont want to understand this : drawing of our prophet is something like that for us. Its our rule, its our belief and its our living. You mess with it, you anger people, you provoke, you make some show around and make people think that you are a moslem where in fact you are a CIA agent or something who obeys rules from his country to make moslems seem bad globally.

    The bombings are not ok. How the f*ck you know that moslem society did them ? Cause they told you so ? I tell you again and again. Look at who profited from those assaults. Then you will know the true answer. Was there something like moslem terror on cold war ? Can you tell me one example ? This thing is set up.

    You dont seem to be surprised that russia is backing up the moslems. Us is making itself a new enemy. An Enemy to attack, an enemy to divert the attention of its citizens and the world. Do you know how bush profited from the terrorist attacks ? Do you ? Do you ?

    I should tell you, moslems are not talking, cause there is nobody to listen. Are you listening to me ? Are you really ? Asking the same answered questions, and defending yourselves with all the same quotes. Your mind is not open, you do not want to listen nor see. I do not know why I insist on writing here, but I do, and tell once again, that whole thing is not just a silly caricature incident, that is a carefully planned attack on us, to make people like you to believe in what they tell you to. Dont you know that Iraq had nothing to do with weapons on the last attack ? Dont you know that orange revolutions in Russia was setup by the Us ? Dont you know that the world is camping Shangai Group – EU – Us ? Dont you know that the big economies want more and more, and are destroying some countries to do so ?

    A plot is being drawn. And you just dont want to realize. I started to feel like a moron trying to explain you such things, I may be talking to some guys watching tv 10 hours a day and come here to tzk tzk moslems.

    Ps. Turks usually do not name their sons mohammed, as it would be inappropriate to yell at a child named mohammed, him being sweared by his friends, or being a bad people. Instead, mehmet is used. Even the sultans have been named as mehmet. Arabs name their kids after the prophet. Can you understand the respect ? (and you would say “being infantized” to that. You do not know what respect is, if you say so.)

  • Layla

    Here is the straight poop on cartoons, boycotts, jihad, and the meaning of life from my Moslem friend who teaches Koran. I don’t know about anyone else, but these exchanges always make me feel a little bit closer to Allah:

    “Mohammed (peace be upon him) did not suffer anything from the newspaper cartoons because he is dead, he is at peace, he is in paradise. There is no reason to ask for any apology, because what do you expect from people who say God had a son. They will say anything. They will draw cartoons too. Now man marries man: I am finished with that. The demonstrations going on now are not right because innocent people are hurt. They should leave it alone. God will be the judge. (in the afterlife)

    “I have not seen the cartoons, but they were bad because we do not show Mohammed (peace be upon him) or Jesus (pbuh) or Moses (pbuh) or anyone Allah has sent in a political cartoon. It is okay to show Bush in a cartoon.

    “Denmark is a small country and economically fragile and very good because it has given a home to many immigrants, not only Moslem. Everyone says this. It took 40 years to build an economic relationship with the Middle East, which is now gone and because of something like this. I would not buy anything from this country. People understand the newspaper is not under the control of the government. The newspaper reflects the people.

    “The Koran ayah (9:29) does not mean to go to other lands and kill anyone who is not Moslem. It means if they rise against Moslems because of their beliefs, to fight back.

    “The Dawa (Islamic community) passed through many phases. The Prophet bought and sold from Jews and Christians; he made a peaceful contract with them. He used to go and visit with Jewish neighbors. Allah asked him to go battle because some people caused trouble and would not leave him alone. He was not sure of a win. He had a small army. He won the battle with a few people, but a lot of people escaped. Then he settled for peace. The powers have to be balanced before you can sit with an agreement. You have to show some power.

    “There were two major battles in Islamic history. The prophet made peace agreements with Jewish, Christian, Ethiopian, and Roman people. He had to scare them for an agreement for peace. He never fought by himself but fought when Allah fought with him.

    “The Koran says that we must respect other religions. We are on this earth for one reason: to love and be loved, to respect and be respected.”

  • An American Mick

    Alp,
    I understand that you believe that all the evil acts in the world have been set up and choreographed by the CIA. I think that the truth of the matter is that the US government has in fact manipulated a great many things in the world, as have other nations, but also that a great many terrorist acts have been committed by terrorists in the name of Islam. If you try to blame the US for ALL the evil in the world, you lose credibility. No one is innocent, and we all have to try to stop our own societies from participating in evil acts.

    I, and many other Americans, are sincerely committed to doing what we can to stop US government involvement in places the US government does not belong. There is strong and growing support in America for withdrawing US troops and freeing ourselves from dependence on Arab oil, which is at the heart of US involvement in the Middle East. I don’t know how successful we will be, but I sincerely hope we succeed, and soon.

    Can you and other Moslems make a similar, united and public committment, to disavow any support for, or association with, terrorists who act in the name of Islam, and the imams who actively support and encourage them?

    Moslems can not, and should not be expected to forsake their reverence of Mohammed. Western cultures can not, and should not be expected to subordinate themselves to the rules of your religion and restrict the freedoms we revere as much as you revere your Prophet.

  • n_beck

    hi layla
    can i ask one question: r u a Moslem?
    your one previous post says that u r not.
    or somebody else did it.

  • An American Mick

    n_beck,
    No problem – your English is much better than my Arabic. Which post did you want me to clarify?

  • n_beck

    and An American Mick
    you say “Moslems can not, and should not be expected to forsake their reverence of Mohammed. Western cultures can not, and should not be expected to subordinate themselves to the rules of your religion and restrict the freedoms we revere as much as you revere your Prophet.”

    we Moslem never tried to prevent other people to live their religion nor critisized. do you have any ideas about limit of freedom and i think you will not.

  • An American Mick

    n_beck,
    I think it’s dangerous to limit freedoms. If I agreed today that we should limit some Danish guy’s freedom to draw a picture of Mohammed, then next week I might have to agree that your right to speak out in defense of Islam should be limited. Then the following week, I’d have no choice but to agree that my right to criticize George Bush should be limited. Since I cherish MY right to freely criticize George Bush and the Christian religion, I will defend the Danish guy’s right to draw pictures of Mohammed, and YOUR right to speak out against the Danish cartoonist, and against me.

    In order for ALL of our rights to be protected, we sometimes have to protect our OPPONENTS’ rights to speak out against us (but not to act violently toward us).

    Anyone who supports free speech SUPPORTS YOUR RIGHT TO PROTEST. But violence against free speech will inevitably destroy YOUR freedom to curse me. I don’t think you or I want that to happen.

  • Alp,
    You love to point out the ignorance of others but do nothing to answer the questions posed. I believ it is you who are ignorant to the perpetrators of these terrible terrorists acts if you believe they are orchestrated from the west. Why can all the terrorists of these previous mentioned bombings be caught and /or identified as being muslims yet you deny they are doing these things? As they showed the attacks on the world trade center and thousands dying cameras caught many in the middle east celebrating…were they not muslims condoning acts of violence? You talk of who makes money on these acts…well, enlighten me…who? Would you believe the muslims bomb and kill their own people so some can benefit in some way? If not, how are we to believe that George Bush would orchestrate the world trade center attacks using muslims so he can make money? I agree, George Bush has outlived his usefulness as our president and made some questionable decisions maybe even downright illegal judgement calls, but I find it hard to believe he would want to see his own people murdered for his own gain, let alone have the resources to get muslims to do his dirty work for him.
    What if the cartoon in question was not of the prophet but of one of the many “extremists” named muhammed who like to bomb and kill others….? Would it still be offensive to you?
    Please Alp, educate me and others as to why the perpetrators of these terror bombings and killings/beheadings are not muslims and are all performing these acts for us here in the west?

    You say muslims are not talking because there is nobody to listen? Seriously? I’m listening. Tell me who is perptrating these acts of violence around the world and masquerading as muslims? Who is profiting from teh Bali bombings? Any of the bombings? I can agree that the U.S. as well as many other nations have many backroom deals to make money and such but I doubt any of it is directed at and against one faith (muslims) in particular.

    Why does it frustrate you to explain how islam is a peaceful faith and although muslims are the ones committing the bombings and beheadings that it is not the fault of the faith even though you stand against none of it? And you stand against none of it because…no one listens? I find that a weak argument.

    I have no feelings of ill will against you and would love to be educated where I am “ignorant”. Who has closed mind now?

  • American Mick,

    Post #495, well said.

    I agree that I am not the smartest of people, but I am a product of my environment. Howver, I ask these questions to educate myself and instead of being beligerent, can a muslim please just justify why they allow what goes on in the world? Your own imams preach violence and bloodshed so please don’t tell me it’s not the muslims that do these things.

  • Layla

    admin- can’t read this now that the file has gotten larger. The text is overwriting itself again, in spite of max screen width and small font display settings. I’m running windows 98 with office 2000. Also it takes forever on dial-up to scroll to the end to read new remarks, to say noting of creating a file to remove formatting. I can’t be the only person who has this problem reading your website. Can’t you get your techie elves to archive part of this or divide it into shorter segments? Everything after #432 is illegible.

  • I guess the simple questions are the hardest to answer.

  • twist

    What happened to Abu selam?
    I miss his lucid and logical posts.

  • An American Mick

    Someone needs to take over Abu’s copy/paste role here. I miss him, too.

  • twist

    In honor of Abu, I am submitting a depiction of Mohammed.
    Anyone who may be traumatized by an image of the Prophet, please do not continue reading…

    >:(

  • Layla

    twist, is that parenthesis a unibrow? Didn’t Prophet have gap between front teeth?They should take out Abu s remarks and post them separtly as poetry and for people who want to study them to make sarcastic posts elsewhere, and also to make the file shorter so I can read the remarks, i can’t read anything.. Seriously, we need to listen to these abu guys. they are the next guys to strap on explosive vests. right now they are sitting in the internet cafe paying a dinar an hour, or whatever to lok at dog porn. If someone offers them 99 or even 72 virgins, they’re going to go ape.

  • Jim

    Layla, I’d like to fix this for you, but I can’t reproduce your problem for the life of me, so I don’t know what the issue is. Are you using Internet Explorer? It’s notorious for this sort of problem — perhaps Mozilla’s Firefox browser would be the thing.

    As for you, twist, I’ve heard that Mohammed was a happy camper sometimes too, and that he liked to flare his nostrils. So in the interest of being fair and balanced, let me give you my own drawing of Mohammed:

    >:8)

  • twist

    Layla,
    I really dont think listening to ANY religious zealot (Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc.) would be any more useful than trying to debate Charles Manson on kitchen utensile safety. There is no way to rationalize irrational thought or behavior.

  • An American Mick

    twist,
    If I had been drinking my beer just now, it would have come out of my nose.
    Thank you for a good belly laugh!

  • layla

    I will be dipped, Jim, it was the Internet Explorer. Runs fast now too. But that nose. It doesn’t exactly look bovine. Could it be playing it a little close to the line?

    Twist I agree, religious extremists–of any religion–are dangerous. But these are learned behaviours (within a cultural context). There are leaders and there are followers and abu potty-mouth is not exactly having original thoughts. Abu is a fuse, not a damp fuse either, and is part of a system of interrelated events. I don’t think you can just give up trying to bridge the cultural gap. You won’t reach everyone but you will reach someone, and often someone from another culture will also reach you. Sometimes that is the most rewarding part, when you catch a glimpse of someone else’s reality behind all the posturing. You go from “people are all basically alike and we’re all one big happy family” to “these are creepy barbarians, not humans” to “okay now I start to see how we are alike and how we are different” and that is where we need to get to in order to build on commonalities.

    You have to stop thinking about the Middle East in terms of “rational.” Nobody cares about rational. It’s all about boredom and emotion. Sort of like baseball season and American Idol. As Chalabi said on Charlie Rose about his detractors, “Who cares about the truth when you can have fun.”

    Why does Homeland Security recommend Mozilla? Is this also part of a “global disturbance” conspiracy, or did I spend too much time in the Middle East.

    Meanwhile Jill Carroll and 40 other Western hostages are being imprisoned without trial as American Mick says,”in the name of Jihad for Islam.” Nobody is rioting about it.

  • twist

    Layla,

    1) I agree that it is a learned behavior however; If a child runs into the street, you have to deal with the immediate issue, and not engage in a philisophical circle jerk about who paved the road.
    2) I dont have a problem “bridging a cultural gap” with Abu as long as it doen’t involve me converting to Islam to appease him or having shrapnel surgically removed from my ass.
    3) I believe that everyone has caught a glimpse of Abu’s reality and no one is buying in to the bullshit. By the way, “posturing” is a nice word, but it is not interchangeable with murder, violence, terror or a host of others that Abu is comfortable with.
    4) I have never thought of the middle east in terms of “rational”
    5) Boredom and emotion… you got me there. Those ARE acceptable reasons to burn & bomb embassies, businesses, cars, flags, people etc. and it’s good clean fun! MY BAD!!!
    6) Mozilla? whatever…
    7) Nobody is rioting about the 40 hosatges because we’re not bored enough yet. No really… we’re not. Besides, the people who are holding them hostage wont hurt them, they are the practicioners of the “Religion of Peace”.

  • Layla

    My computer is better now. I can read everything, so I want to answer some people who asked me questions.

    N_beck, I like your story about the kafir in the mosque very much . The word “ahiret” I think is the Judgment Day.

    I am a Christian, but I have prayed with the Moslems (don’t tell my mother). My church is called Methodist, an American protestant church that started in the Church of England.

    We read the Bible, of course, so we can understand about Jesus for ourselves, and not just what someone tells us. In the front of the church, we do not have a statue of Jesus on the cross or any picture of Jesus—we are different from other churches in this—because we don’t want people to pray to a picture. We pray to God only. If another church has a statue of Jesus, it is not a big thing, but we don’t like it. We do have pictures of Jesus in books to teach children about religion. Children are busy and move all the time and they need pictures to sit down and be quiet and understand.

    Some churches want to be by themselves, but my church like to talk to other churches and other religions. We had “Abraham salons” and read a book together with Methodist and Moslems to understand how our religions are the same. If people are going to start to trust each other, they must first talk to each other.

    Here is the website of my church about “social justice.” It is a very important idea for us. Look at “press releases” to see what the church thinks about the war in Iraq and the prisoners in Abu Graib.

    http://www.umc-gbcs.org/site/pp.asp?c=fsJNK0PKJrH&b=860371

    N_beck , I do not put my Email in public. In that way I can speak without fear. Then we can talk about many ideas, even stupid ideas. The idea is important, not the person who has the idea.

    Alp says it is “completely forbidden, to draw our prophet… Why do we have to tell it again and again?”

    Two newspapers in Jordan published the cartoons and no one noticed. Egypt published the cartoons during Ramadan and no one noticed. The pictures of Prophet are in mosques. I have read the Koran; Koran says nothing about this. I do not believe it. Here is a website with more famous pictures of Prophet

    http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

    Alp says “you persistently keep on telling that Islam orders to kill. That is not true.” Here is the website that says all Moslems must kill all kafirs. Click on the blue letters. It has all of the Koran. It has the meaning of the Koran in English. It says the Koran orders to kill:

    http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=26125&dgn=4

    Does the CIA put the Koran on a website? Do Israelis say ‘write a question about Koran and a sheik will answer it and tell you to kill all kafirs’?

    Alp says terrorism is “a globewide disturbance, and the aim of the act was to provoke moslems to make all moslems seem ignorant and savage beings”. Are the new pictures of Abu Graib a globewide disturbance to make Bush look ignorant and savage?

    You will see Americans of all religions and no religion work together to find truth and justice about Abu Graib. It will take time because America is very big and moves slowly. But you will see it.

    Who will find truth and justice for the 40 Western civilians kidnapped by terrorists and now missing? Where is truth and justice for Jill Carroll? Who will fix this Moslem problem?

  • Pete

    I guess the only solution is to ban all religious activity. That way no one religion can be favored and in so banning them all, everyone is treated with equality.

  • Bjarne

    Hej There I think is nice pictures on the front.
    But i like to talk about my favorit object Guanatanmo Bay. UN has told Amrica to closed it dawn. You never realy talk about it concerning the Muslims cryout and anger. Those camps are not a good pictures to send to Muslims country. sorry US

  • Faiz

    DOM how dare you make a comment like that! What the hell gives you the right to make fun of the holy prophet. How about I call JESUS GAY. And post stupid pictures of him…with lets say stink lines comming out, and him kissing a guy. How does that make you feel! Dont be stupid! I definatly didnt meen anything about Jesus, I merely said that to proove my point. Muslims would never say something like that about the Christian Community. And we would never make fun of Jesus, as he was one of our holy prophets as well-Prophet Isah. Now I may only be 14yrs old, but I know the difference between right and wrong, and the comics about Prophet Muhammed are definatly out of line!-Faiz Bhatia, Ont,Canada.

  • Jim

    No, we never really talk about it. Really now?

    Nope.

    Never.

    No mention from us.

    Oh, we just ignore it.

    Dearie me, we forgot to talk about it!

    We are evil censors.

    Zero mention.

    These Irregular Times articles are just in the past three months alone. Bjarne, the reason nobody is talking about Guantanamo on this thread is that this thread is not, like, about Guantanamo. But rest assured we discuss Guantanamo plenty.

  • Jim

    OK, go ahead, Faiz, make the cartoons. But we’ve already covered this territory ourselves.

    How do we dare to make comments? Like this: “Hey, I’m going to make a drawing.” And then we do it. And then people choose how they want to react to it, and that’s their choice under their control. Unless you’d like to assert that Muslims have no self-control, which I don’t think is territory you’re interested in.

    By the way, we’re not Christian. Try not to make assumptions.

  • Bjarne

    Ok Jim. What i meant was on this tread about Danish cartoons. You don’t expect me to read all Web-site.You do a very good Job.

  • Bjarne

    I’m sorry to tell you Jim. I can’t finding anything about UN Tell America to cloose Guantanamo Bay Todays News on your Web-site

  • An American Mick

    Layla,
    VERY well said!

    Mozilla is more robust and less vulnerable to hacking and hijacking. Explorer’s full of security holes and is heavily targeted by hackers.

    The points you’ve made are very clear, rational, and objective. From what I’ve seen, I doubt you’ll get a coherent Moslem response.

  • Jim

    Well, hold on, Bjarne. On the west coast of the U.S. it’s only 9:27 AM. Don’t fret. We’ll have something up today.

  • An American Mick

    Bjarne,
    I suspect that if those outside the US could actually see and hear the dissent that’s not only expressed, but is growing more each day, they would understand that Guantanamo and Abu Ghuraib and other things like that are NOT okay with us, and WILL NOT STAND for long. Bush and Cheney will inevitably answer to people far bigger than they will ever be.

  • Bjarne

    At the moment my son is on West Side of America, San Francisco and he tell that this side of US i differents from the East side,They don’t like Bush on the West Side. But why i talked about this thing is because
    Abu Ghuraib and Guantanamo Bay is on many Danish peoples mind as biggere insults to Muslims than the stupid boycut of Denmark that has been legalized, and i think therefore this issues are allso subjects in the debate.

  • An American Mick

    Johnny Logic,
    I see there’s STILL been no response to your questions (#496, and others). You may not think you’re the smartest of people, but you’re clearly capable of posing clear and logical questions that deserve a considered response. I’ve come to realize there will be no coherent response from a Moslem to the genuine questions and concise points of logic raised here. I think most of us here to genuinely want some greater mutual understanding, but we may be beating our heads against a wall. Layla has offered the most intelligible insight into the Moslem world-view. It would be nice to hear it coming from a Moslem, in a true spirit of understanding. It would be nice to hear a Moslem express appropriate outrage over terrorism, just as Moslems expect – and see – American outrage over Abu Ghuraib and Iraq.

  • An American Mick

    Bjarne,
    They don’t like Bush on the East side either. I think he may have the lowest approval rating of any US President in history (I could be wrong about that, but I don’t think so).

  • Bjarne

    American Mick i agree with you. But your election system with only 2 Parties is very different from ours this is a new expirience for me. But it is always good to learn new things, and i learn a lot about US on this site
    Thanks

  • Jim

    Mick,

    I sympathize with your “is there any Moslem out there?” query. But we know just as there are Americans outraged over Abu Ghraib that there are Muslims who are outraged over terrorism. Ten seconds on google brings me to the Free Muslims Coalition. Covering such groups doesn’t sell American papers. But these groups do exist.

  • An American Mick

    Jim,
    You’re absolutely right, of course, and I have agreed with you all along that many Moslems abhor terrorism. I guess I’m getting a little frustrated with having no real success in trying to discuss these things with Moslems who’ve visited with us here. I appreciate the reminder to keep things in perspective.

    I’m gonna check out the website you referenced. I think I could use that about now.

  • Alp

    The reason that I have not been able to reply Johnny logic is not being able to find a suitable answer. There is no “aha” here American Mick the chauvenist, I just am busy.

    Jimmy Logic… You ask

    “You love to point out the ignorance of others but do nothing to answer the questions posed. I believ it is you who are ignorant to the perpetrators of these terrible terrorists acts if you believe they are orchestrated from the west. Why can all the terrorists of these previous mentioned bombings be caught and /or identified as being muslims yet you deny they are doing these things? ”

    Yes. Very good point. I am done for :) What kind of question is that ? If I do something and want it to appear like somebody else’s doing, would I leave my signature ? Of course those poersons were identified as moslems. Some are really moslems, being directed by the global powers I keep on talking about, being fueled by them. Wasnt Saddam or Bin Laden fueled by USA ? I am from Turkey. We have been through difficult times in 80’s. People were killing each other in the name of politics. It has been proved that some bombings that triggered some events, which took place on both sides of the civil war, were done by the same party, a party trying to trigger war. Each side blamed the other so the furious outrage broke. If I was in a plot to make anybody seem guilty for a thing they are not, would I show myself ?

    “As they showed the attacks on the world trade center and thousands dying cameras caught many in the middle east celebrating…were they not muslims condoning acts of violence? ”

    Where, may I ask, in middle east ? You are mentioning osama bin laden. Nobody else has celebrated the terrorist actions that I know of. Hah, all of palestanians may not be sorry, as they were being killed everyday by the israelis, being a partner of the US themselves.

    “You talk of who makes money on these acts…well, enlighten me…who? ”

    That is a question like, if there is god, show me. Would you be asking this question if it was that obvious ? Would they be able to continue the plots if they were so “around” ?

    “Would you believe the muslims bomb and kill their own people so some can benefit in some way? ”

    I would. Im sure it has been done in the past. Somebody kills somebody and blames the opponent. Does that look like a new discovered and non happened plot to you ?

    “If not, how are we to believe that George Bush would orchestrate the world trade center attacks using muslims so he can make money? ”

    I am not pointing out bush. I am pointing out that what he has done after the attack made US and himself personaly profit from the act. But Im sure some companies or groups profited more.

    “I agree, George Bush has outlived his usefulness as our president and made some questionable decisions maybe even downright illegal judgement calls, but I find it hard to believe he would want to see his own people murdered for his own gain, let alone have the resources to get muslims to do his dirty work for him.”

    Hah. Do you really think that it works like that ? You know a moslem friend and tell him “please do bomb the buildings so that I can profit.” The thing does not work like that. My governemnt founded the Hizbullah (not related to the iranian one, which some people were mistake it for) terrorrists to battle the PKK previously, who later on were declared as the terrorists themselves and were hunted, when the government had no need for them. As you did to Saddam or Laden. Governments have these kind of resources. Or resources to invoke a revolt, like the ones in previous USSR countries, the orange revolts. The people joining the revolutions did not know about the western interference in the situation, the act was carried out considered as a good act. But it was triggered. Set up. People who does things does not always know what they really are doing. The bombings could have involved some moslem- seemings, but also some moslems. That does not mean that i was done by the moslem society. Aristotheles philosophy does not work always. “If a fish stinks, all fishes stink” that is not true. “If some american soldiers tortured iraqis at ebu garib, all american soldiers are torturers.” that is not true. So, if “some moslems were involved in bombing” does not make all moslems involved, NOR it was SETUP by moslems.

    “What if the cartoon in question was not of the prophet but of one of the many “extremists” named muhammed who like to bomb and kill others….? Would it still be offensive to you?”

    It would make me feel uneasy. But not furious.

    “Please Alp, educate me and others as to why the perpetrators of these terror bombings and killings/beheadings are not muslims and are all performing these acts for us here in the west?”

    Terrorists,my friend, are not people without aim. Chickens are without aim. People are not. There has to be something to gain, if some terrorist does something. It may be money for the support of the belief or goal, it may be to spread the belief, to spread fear, to gather more supporters. But after doing what is decided to be done, it is declared. “I have done this and will do this.” Nobody said that I did this after 9/11. And, furthermore, it did not profit any moslem illegal organization. It profited the energy cartels.

    “You say muslims are not talking because there is nobody to listen? Seriously? I’m listening.
    Tell me who is perptrating these acts of violence around the world and masquerading as muslims? ”
    You are not listening. If you were, you would think. That is so much an easy question to ask, like I told before, “if there is god, then show me.” That is something to think about.
    But… I also have pointed out. The one who is profiting..

    “Who is profiting from teh Bali bombings? Any of the bombings? I can agree that the U.S. as well as many other nations have many backroom deals to make money and such but I doubt any of it is directed at and against one faith (muslims) in particular.”

    You may doubt. I do not. The thing is not directed at moslems because they are moslems. People are killing themselves in Africa. Have been, and will be. Weapon productors are profiting from the incidents. As they have frm the Iran-Iraq war. If Africa had more resources, be sure that the restless region would be them. The thing is directed to moslems because of the resources they hold themselves now. The companies need some order. So is US there to bring order, the order they need. Them being moslems, makes the task easier, because there is somebody to divert the anger to, and make the world care less, as the opponents are shown to be savages and terrorists.

    Do you believe that it would be possible for US to invade iraq if Saddam (who is known to be a pawn of the states previously ) did not attack Quait ? Or would it be *read this place again and again if still the same questions arise * possible for George W Bush, who is the son of the first one who attacked on iraq, to invade Afganistan, and Iraq, and god knows the country about to be invaded, if there was no 9/11? How many people died in bombings ? All the bombings ? I dont know. How much money has been gained ? All regimes kill people. Communists did, Fascits did, Capitalists did. But the obviosity changed. The declarations, the so called aims and the replies changed.Capitalists are killing. For more world control, for more resources and money.

    “Why does it frustrate you to explain how islam is a peaceful faith and although muslims are the ones committing the bombings and beheadings that it is not the fault of the faith even though you stand against none of it? ”

    Read my previous posts and do not make me repeat myself again and again. I damn those who does the bombings to civilians. Even if this is my brother. Islam commands us to protect the innocent, and you tell about killing the innocent. We are commanded to protect the innocent, even if the danger is not us but another one.

    “And you stand against none of it because…no one listens? I find that a weak argument. ”

    You would not make me repeat if you did listen.

    “I have no feelings of ill will against you and would love to be educated where I am “ignorant”. Who has closed mind now?”

    am I ? Ooh, what a triumph for you. What wise words. I ve been beaten. Blah :)

    Layla says :
    “Two newspapers in Jordan published the cartoons and no one noticed. Egypt published the cartoons during Ramadan and no one noticed. The pictures of Prophet are in mosques. I have read the Koran; Koran says nothing about this. I do not believe it. Here is a website with more famous pictures of Prophet”

    You may have read Quran, but that does not make you understand it. It does not make you understand the belief. There is sunnets, the doings and the teachings of the prophets, and hadhiths, the events that he has done. These are the important parts of Islam too. I dont care if you believe or not. You should respect, EVEN if WRONG. I have seen that damn site. And most of them are christian doings. The ones mentioned that were done by moslems are hiding the face, or not done by moslems as they were claimed to be.
    The drawings you mention that were done in Jordan were not a part of an organized attack or plot, as the cartoons we talk about now are.

    “Alp says “you persistently keep on telling that Islam orders to kill. That is not true.” Here is the website that says all Moslems must kill all kafirs. Click on the blue letters. It has all of the Koran. It has the meaning of the Koran in English. It says the Koran orders to kill:”

    Yesss… Now you have revealed all my evil schemes :) Get some part of this, some part of that, and the result is a quran that is an evil book itself. Buzz off you ignorant fool, go and find some empty heads to fill your mumblings with. I do not care how good your church is, nor I would at any time (or have) stated that any church is evil, as you all are doing know, declaring my religion evil.

    I have been writing rows of thoughts here. You always draw circles around yourself and did never get my point. The world is going to go through a change. On the blue corner, the US, Israel and *maybe* the EU. On the red corner, shangai group, Russia, China, and the moslem world. And you people are being a part of it. I do not have nothing to do with American people, I did never blame them, you may read my previus posts again. But… You keep on blaming moslems. Again and again. I only blame the cartels, the governments, Bush etc. And you know, some moslem governments are even in the group of ones to blame.

    Peaces are not made this way. I am not pushing you to a corner, but you choose to be a member of. I do not like war. A war that is triggered on aim is more disgusting. Do not be a bullet. Today Hamas has come to Turkey. I do not know what part my country take in such a global disturbance. God help us not to be manipulated.

    May peace be upon us, and may you find the truth.

  • Layla

    Bjarne, there you are! I was wondering what happened to Abu Laban, the Danish imam that wants to kill artists. Is he in trouble now? I am in the middle of the U.S. in a blue state, and many people here do not like Bush, especially the African-Americans. Many of them become soldiers to get money for education, so in some families there is a niece or something serving in Iraq.

    I think it is important to take the word “Moslem” out of the debate about Abu Graib and Guantanamo. The prisoners were not picked up because they were praying in a mosque, but because either someone thought they were terrorists, or thought they could be used to pressure terrorists. The reason for detaining them is not religious; it is political.

    Faiz, I am Christian and I can tell you we don’t know anything about Jesus’ love life. I suppose it is possible that he was gay, but some people think he loved Mary Magdalene. Mary Magdalene and her sister made a room for Jesus on the roof of their house, so he would have a place to sleep when he came to teach and heal. I would like to think if God loved us enough to become human in the form of Jesus, and walk on the earth, and experience life and death, he also experienced human love. But of course we don’t know.

    Faiz, go ahead and make your picture. I will not kill you, and the Canadian embassy is safe from me.

    Don’t forget that there were 12 pictures, all of them different. One of them is an insult to the newspaper and the paper printed the insult about itself. One of them is a picture of the Prophet with a donkey and the sun. When I saw this picture, for a moment I moved back in time and was standing beside the Prophet on the sand. For an instant, I experienced the Prophet as a real historical person. For me this was a powerful picture. The cartoons that upset people the most are the ones with a political meaning: the one with the bomb in the hat, and the suicide bombers in paradise who have run out of virgins.

    The meaning of the cartoons is the same as the meaning of the pictures from Abu Graib, but with an important difference. Bush is powerful, but someone, probably American, decided it was morally wrong and gave the pictures in secret to someone who could make them public. When Americans see them they say “this should not have happened” and they want answers.

    Where are Moslems who take pictures of terrorists and kidnappers? Who is taking pictures of the conditions where western civilians—journalists, curiosity-seekers, peace activists — are imprisoned? All we have is some cartoons in a Danish newspaper and a lot of hysterical Moslems who are so busy trying to prove their religion is under attack (no doubt to justify killing kafirs) they won’t even take time to address the political issues of the cartoons. Who is tracking and informing the public about the 40 people kidnapped in the name of Islam?

  • Layla

    Alp, thank you for this posting. When you first started to write, I didn’t understand your ideas, but now I am beginning to understand more. But I want to read your post several times and think about it some more before I speak about it.

  • An American Mick

    I’m a chauvenist now? Wow. Where the hell did THAT come from?
    Alp, you baffle me. Are insults the only way you can communicate?

  • Bjarne

    At the moment EU Parlament want US to close the camp and put the inmates on trial

  • Bjarne

    Now you must Beware America now Euorpa said together Close Guantanamo Bay.

  • Bjarne

    Layla. About Mohamad Abu Laban he is facing a hard time, course all Danish Parlament, before it was only the right side of the Parlament who don’t like him, now it is the entire Parlement. Before Danish Law makers used Laban as an consult in matters about Muslim intergration. Now he is frozen out from the good company and nobody trust in him anymore, another Imam Abu Akkari (Who was in Egypth together with Laban) Has offered 33% of the guilth in the matters, but want Anders Fogh and Jylland Posten to accept the rest of the blame. An Egyptian embassador Mona Omar has said lie about Denmark she told an Arabic Newspaper there was no fredom for islam belivers in Denmark .
    But in fact there is 19 Islamic cmmunities there are allowed in Denmark. So she have to face The Goverment in dispute of saying lies. Nobody knows what been said to her, but i guess they have speaked to her with loud out shit and LARGE FONTS

  • Alp

    Someone who needs pointing out which nationality he is from in the nickname is a chauvenist.You just couldnt be plain “mick”. And about insulting, what happened to “free speech ” ? You yourself have insulted me, with your pathetic >:) signs and caricatures, and criticising my religion.

  • Layla

    Bjarne, I am laughing so much trying to imagine the Danish torture of “loud out shit and large fonts.” My Danish grandfather was very quiet, so I can’t imagine Danes acting like that. I think all the interesting political action is in Denmark now.
    U.S. is a sovereign nation and will do what it wants, still the world opinion…if it is only France and Germany, well, they were buying oil from Iraq before the war…but the rest of Europe…
    My idea of Guantanamo is like the small suburb I lived in a few years back. Every year they had a 4th of July parade. All the firetrucks were in the parade and all the local clubs, the veterans, the karate school..and every year the skinheads would come. The skinheads are a neo-Nazi group with shaved heads. Every year they would come with sticks and bats and say they wanted to be in the parade. The police chief would lock them in the jail during the parade, then during the fireworks at night, then finally after everyone went home, he would let the skinheads out of jail. No charges, no paperwork. He just wanted them on ice so everyone else could enjoy the party, but he didn’t want the trouble of putting them through the court system. I am thinking guantanamo is like a place to put the skinheads for a short time until things are quiet. Except things didn’t get quiet….

  • Ralph

    Faiz,

    Thank you very much for not saying that JESUS IS GAY or anything about him kissing a guy. Even if you did mention it (which of course you didn’t), I would have figured it was just a joke, so I wouldn’t have gotten all mad or anything. But thanks anyway for asking how I would have felt. It’s so wonderful that you care.

  • Layla

    Alp:
    I don’t think American Mick is a chauvinist. I think Mick’s remarks are well thought out, pragmatic, and articulate. Mick didn’t draw the faces, someone else did. You drew a face too. And why do you say to me “buzz off you ignorant fool?” I think your perspective gives people something to think about and is intriguing, and you spent a lot of time communicating your ideas to us, but name-calling is not good communication.
    Twist:
    #1 If all you do is run after the child in the street, you’ll spend the rest of your life running out into the street after each child. In case you haven’t noticed, they haven’t run out of little doe-eyed urchins with no future who want those 99 virgins or whatever it is they do it for. Do you really want to spend the next 30 years fighting the Patriot Act? You really think the warfare excuse isn’t going to fly? Do you really want to provide exponentially expanding job security for the intelligence agencies for years to come? Do you really think if every western soldier left Iraq tomorrow, that would be the end of it? Then we had better come up with Plan B. It would be even better if they could come up with Plan B.
    #2 Abu has been grounded and his internet privileges revoked because he and his friends were naughty. If you get lead in your derriere, it is because you were moving in a direction that exposed the rear portion of your anatomy to fire. In case you haven’t noticed, Republicans get shot decently in the front.
    #3 Abu doesn’t know anything about murder, violence, and terror yet. He’s still discovering animal porn and the devil.
    #4 Don’t forget that Abu does not live in a vacuum. Here’s how I picture his life: He has five brothers and six sisters. He sleeps on the floor on a 2” foam pad in a room with an extended family of 15 other people. During the day they sit and eat on the floor in the same room they sleep in with a TV in the corner. He is required by the Koran to obey his father and mother. Maybe 2 or 3 people in the household have jobs that support the rest. If he goes to school his teachers beat him with hoses or sticks. If he stays home his father or uncles hit him. He spends as much time on the street as possible.
    #5 The Middle East needs a good soccer league.
    #6 I swear there is something in the water over there. You drink it and you believe in conspiracies. Thanks for the reality check, American Mick; a recommendation from DHS does make sense.
    #7 They’re not practitioners of the Religion of Peace. They’re Pharisees and Sadducees dressed up to look and speak like someone else, and the surrounding population mysteriously protects them without realizing their true identities.

  • Alp

    Layla,

    I havent thought of communicating with you previously, as I have seen your post about how bad a book is quran and such. I do not thnink that writer of such verses can be open minded or made to think about something. You may not consider one who is using his nation as his nickname, but I may.
    What I did was a little insult. Only a ltitle. What you did was an insult resulted in series of furious acts. Now think about it.

    A friend told me about the prayer at Friday at a mosque, the Imam told the moslems who have come to pray about our prohet,injustice being done upon him, and couldnt finish his speech because he broke into tears. The savage society you think of is mostly made up of such persosns. He did not call out for revenge or anytihng, he just was so insulted that he began to cry unintentionalyy in front of a mass, resulting his speech to go unfinished. That is an insult. You didnt like a tiny bit of some insult, did you ?

  • Ralph

    Has that Imam ever cried over the victims of suicide bombers? Or just cartoons?

  • aedem

    hey! guys we just want respect, respect to our religin and its symbols.
    why someones use bad words (or like that caricatures) about our religion and its symbols.
    we(muslims) never use bad words or smilar things abouth anybodies religions or its symbols. because qouran(our holy book) order us.
    and we are human.
    you respect our believes – we respect your believes.
    if you dont respect our believes – also we continue respect your believes.
    who knows? who is right?
    I believe god(allah) knows who is right. god(allah) is god(allah), our description or believes never change real god(allah).
    And god(allah)will judge all of us. So we have to attention our speaks and behaviours…..

  • Alp

    Ralph… That imam is a wise man. He does not think the victims of the suicide bombers as the ones from his side, as you do. He does not cry to caricatures. He does not cry because he is sad.

    He cries cause his belief is insulted. The moslem world is being insulted.

    We had suicide bombings, you know ? You dont have an idea what terror is damnit. You dont. I have been on the iraqian border a year ago. I was on my military duty. You do not know waking up with your gun in your hand. You dont know being a sentry on a border that is only 2 kms away from the Kurdish terrorists camp. Do not mumble me about terror or suicide bombings. Ive seen it. Ive lived it. Our country is messing with terror for years. tens of thousands of young people have died because of it. And you are not the one to teach me about the suicide bombers’ teachings. A long time before the events you “heard” of, my country had been experiencing it, with the support of your US or the EU. We have cried a lot for alot of people, mostly because some powers did not want some stable rulership in our region. While we did talk about terrorism, you were talking about freedom. Now you are talking about both the terrorism and the freedom. Your countries had been supporting terrorism for years, and now after the trigger, you seem to be against it in public, whereas the pkk is still being backed up in northern iraq.

    You are responsible for what happened.

    See, layla, he was not the man making faces. No it was this man. See, he isnt the one that previously asked the same questions over and over again, no he is different.

    After I answer this soul, the ones that stand answered now will be asking the same questions, and will claim to be standing listening.

    My last word on this post… Do not be manipulated. You are being. Moslem brothers, do not. Christians, do not. They are forcing you to think with hatred. Nothing good will come out of it.

  • Layla

    Alp,
    (the Turk with the Swiss name)
    On 9/11, I saw Moslems dancing on the street in Palestine on the West Bank. The same day on television I saw Arafat at the hospital giving blood for the people of New York. To give blood is the same in every language. After that, I saw no more dancing.

    The cartoons are an organized plot? The newspaper said the cartoons were to find an artist to make a book for children about your prophet so the children in the West would understand the story about your religion. Most Danish children are not Moslem and they always have books with pictures. What do you think about this kind of book?

    Osama ben laden took credit for the World Trade Center attacks. It was in a tape that was taken, not one he gave to the papers. In the tape he talked about the engineers who studied the construction of the towers and how they predicted the damage, so he had actual information and didn’t just say it to look like the big man.

    How does your imam cry that the Moslem is insulted? The West makes pictures like this about Jesus and Moses and all famous people. This picture is not the same as God. Your prophet is not on a paper; Mohammed died and went to heaven. If you worship Mohammed on a paper, you will be insulted. If you worship God in heaven, everything is at peace.

    I thought PKK stopped terrorism, because they can have some part in Iraq. They say Kurds do not want a separate country. Here they say Saddam killed Kurds with gas and America did nothing, then the Kurds ran from Saddam into the mountains with their children in the snow and the Americans did nothing, not even one tent. They say America is a friend to the Kurds in name only because of the American friendship with Turkey.

    How did I say Koran is a bad book? Read again what I said about Koran in #490. And I did not say this; it was my Moslem friend who teaches Koran. I will write it here again so you can see exactly what I said:

    “The Koran ayah (9:29) does not mean to go to other lands and kill anyone who is not Moslem. It means if they rise against Moslems because of their beliefs, to fight back.
    “The Dawa (Islamic community) passed through many phases. The Prophet bought and sold from Jews and Christians; he made a peaceful contract with them. He used to go and visit with Jewish neighbors. Allah asked him to go battle because some people caused trouble and would not leave him alone. He was not sure of a win. He had a small army. He won the battle with a few people, but a lot of people escaped. Then he settled for peace. The powers have to be balanced before you can sit with an agreement. You have to show some power.
    “There were two major battles in Islamic history. The prophet made peace agreements with Jewish, Christian, Ethiopian, and Roman people. He had to scare them for an agreement for peace. He never fought by himself but fought when Allah fought with him.
    “The Koran says that we must respect other religions. We are on this earth for one reason: to love and be loved, to respect and be respected.”

    I agree the world is going through a change. In the Middle East I heard a lot about how America is the world’s only superpower. Many Arabs think this is dangerous because there is no other country to balance the power. I think the other countries are too small, Russia has economic problems, China is just cheap labor for the rest of the world, but the European Union is big enough to be a power, and maybe the U.N. Even if it is very new, E.U. has economic bargaining power. The Arab countries will not be an economic power because they gave away their bargaining power with the Danish boycott; the parts of Middle East that are not at war are not stable enough for trade.

    I don’t know about a world CIA plot. Whenever the CIA does something stupid, they are always in the newspaper. The U.S. has a lot of press freedom, and when there is shady business someone always whispers information to the newpapers. If the CIA did it, everyone would know. If the CIA benefited, how could they know what the result would be before it happened? Can they see the future? And if the CIA benefited, maybe someone did it to make it look like the CIA, a “seeming-CIA,” maybe someone who wants to sell guns to Palestine. These answers are twisted. Sometimes the easy answer is the correct answer.

    After 9/11, on the Arab street they said, “the Jews did it.” How can they get information so fast, I thought, there has to be an investigation and phone calls. Then the American press said the names were Mohammed. The street was wrong. Everyone knows Mohammed is no name for a nice Jewish boy. Then they said Jews ran CNN, not true. Ted Turner was the owner and he is not religious, but from a Christian family. Then they said the currency would fall, not true, it was pegged to the dollar. Always bad information. Never “I don’t know” or “wait and ask questions,” but just bad information. If you wanted to know “is there a demonstration today, and at what time”, the information on the street was always right, but in explaining the world, the street doesn’t know anything.

    I think you were in danger as a soldier. This makes you think in a different way. A soldier has to watch all the time to go home alive. When I lived with Arabs, I was afraid sometimes, and always looking around me. Every day I woke up without a gun, but I was protected by my American passport and by my friendship with the Arabs. You kept Turkey and the world safe, now may Allah keep you safe.

  • Ralph

    Alp,

    Every time a human being is murdered, the image of God is desecrated. It does not matter whether or not that human being is on “your side.” Am I wrong?

    I know about terror. I know what the United States has done over the last century in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Hiroshima, Lebanon, Libya, and Iraq–to name just a few. I know about “secret bombings,” “covert wars,” sanctions that starve half a million children and politicians who say “it was worth it.”

    When suicide bombers kill innocent civilians, they are acting just like the United States government. Is this the moral standard you live by?

    How can terror happen? Because people only care what happens to people on “our side” and not about people on “their side.”

    I talk to Americans every day who don’t care how many people on “their side” die. They don’t care whether they are soldiers or children or parents trying to raise a family in the middle of a war. They won’t shed a tear over all the Vietnamese or Salvadoran or Iraqi people (every one a sacred image of God) murdered by American cluster bombs, depleted uranium, or the diseases that ravage young children when the U.S. destroys a water treatment plant. But they suddenly get furious if you desecrate a cross or burn a flag. They care more about insults to symbols created by humans than about the desecration of images of God created by God himself. They are hypocrites.

    I hold myself to a higher moral standard. Do you?

  • Layla

    Looking around the internet this weekend I noticed a few websites a bit the worse for wear. Wikipedia had a notice announcing increased security measures against thieves breaking into their site, but accessing this site froze my screen and I had to cycle the power to get my computer freed. Likewise a site that carries a translation of Danish news froze my screen and started pouring data into my computer (my modem is noisy)until I cycled the power.

    One website remained rock solid through all of this. The Koran site of a stated Saudi who says it is the duty of all Moslems to go to the lands of kayfirs (that’s Christians, Jews, and bad Moslems) and kill them.
    http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&QR=34830
    Global conspiracy theory, anyone? Sympathy for the Devil? or is this just an example of free speech only being the right of those who wrap themselves in the Koran.

  • An American Mick

    Ralph,
    You have spoken rationally, logically, and truly.

    I fear, however, that you are engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

  • tony

    mohammed sucks ass. Eat shit mohammed. May he enjoy a thousand deaths in Hell.
    Amen

  • Tracy

    Well, that’s rude, Tony. There’s a difference between principled and rude. Your mother apparently didn’t tell you about it. You embarrass yourself.

  • Layla

    I can’t agree completely with Ralph that Americans don’t care when foreign civilians are killed. Even the most bigoted and racially intolerant people I know say that Abu Graib should not have happened. But when you start talking about cluster bombs and collateral damage, their eyes just glaze over. Intention is everything.

    If you were doing your best to hit a military target and a civilian got caught in the crossfire, well, that just happens in war. Not acceptance, but resignation. When my dad found out I had been in Jerusalem during the intifada, he freaked because he thought civilians were more likely to get hurt, as they don’t know how to duck as well as soldiers. It never even occurred to him that a civilian might be a primary target. Americans just don’t target civilians, and it is hard for us to imagine how someone else could think that way.

    Americans also intentionally place anything that might be a military target well away from civilian populations to protect civilians in case of attack. The insurgents do the opposite, so any attack on them will be more likely to take civilian casualties and feed hatred for the west among the civilians they are hiding with.

    About depleted uranium: I’m not a scientist, but this is what a scientist tells me about depleted uranium. You take regular uranium out of the ground. Then you separate the radioactive uranium out of it. What is left over is depleted uranium, supposedly with no radioactivity that is detectable from background radiation. The advantage of uranium is that it is denser and heavier than other weapon materials and can pierce metals and other materials (concrete bunkers?)more easily. Did I miss anything?

  • Ralph

    Who will rise above the insults and degradation?

    Who will requite brutality with justice?

    Who will give to others the respect they demand for themselves?

    What do you gain, Mick, from insulting Alp?

  • Alp,
    Regarding post #526…You are deceived and you deceive yourself. You are so full of conspiracy theories but have zero evidence! If we follow your logic, what if the muslims planned and executed the attacks/bombings and specifically made it obvious that muslims were doing it, so people like you will bring up a conspiracy that would make everyone feel that it was so obvious, that it must be TOO obvious so the west must be responsible!? WEAK.
    You never answered my question about the virgins…do you seriously think that your god wants to reward suicide bombers with virgins?! Does he think that little of you? What about the female bombers…what are they gonna do with virgins!>?
    Regarding the travesties at Abu Graib, we investigated and prosecuted several for that…tell me which muslims prosecuted anyone tht has beheaded someone or been involved in a terrorist act that has killed or injured innocent people that you say your koran forbids?
    I agree that you are very articulate, but closed minded to the truth. You are more interested in persuading others that your truths are correct than objectively looking the evidence.
    I did not “declare” your religion evil as you say, I have looked at the evidence and asked you to make me understand why it is not in the face of the truth. You have done little to dissuade me or any others that may be searching for the truth I think because your arguments are not based in truth or logic rather what you have felt in your heart which has been planted there by misinformation.
    My questions are like “there is god, show me”?! Are you high? Kind of convenient for you to think that way isn’t it? Are you sure that there have been times in history where factions have harmed themselves looking to blame the other side regardless of how innocent? How are you sure that this has happened? I can tell you. Because there has been evidence to support this! Where is your evidence to support your conspiracy theories? Without evidence you are just being ignorant. I fully agree with you thet certain acts and this war has reated profit for some, but I see no evidence that any of it was done for that reason. Because someone benefitted from something does not make them responsible for it.
    I also agree that we are in for perilous times when the super powers and religous factions unite against each other, but I disagree that there is any other conspiracy causing it other than the muslims rejection of freedoms not only for themselves but for everyone in the world. This is not about the american bullying the rest of the world, this is about the intolerance muslms have for anyone who is not of their faith. There are many instances where journalists have been advised to kneel and pray to alah or die. I am not understanding why this is acceptable in a peaceful religion.
    You nearly passed over the bali bombings. So when nobody profits from teh act, then it means that it was done to provoke muslims or make them look guilty? How convenient is that for you?!
    We “never get ” your “point” because you have no substance to your arguments only that your opinions are right and ours is wrong.
    Although you are obviously hardened of heart, you are not blind to the truth, you just choose to ignore it and mislead others. Shame on you.

  • Bjarne

    Hey Layla. A joke for you
    You know why you can’t get the Danish Koran on CD : We are afraid to burn it.
    I read your writing you are a good American-Danish writher. Hey see you.

  • Layla

    Yeah, Mick, what about that, what Ralph said? I said that to my debate partner back in the 10th grade and I thought he was going to kill me.

    Alp insulted you. He insulted me. We both called him on it, but he didn’t apologize, he didn’t explain, he didn’t even say it was a joke.

    Now, once upon a time my friend out East ran for state rep, and because of that he is no longer a private citizen. He is a public figure and now people can (and do) say anything about him. There’s nothing he can do about it. Because he was in politics. But I am a private citizen, so I am protected by the law from slander and libel. So why would someone want to talk like that to me?

    But Mick, Alp is Turk. I have never been in Turkey and I don’t know any Turks. Maybe the Turks are all crazy like that in some way. Maybe that’s how they say “I like you and I want to be your friend.” Maybe he doesn’t know how to answer your questions because no one told him what to say. I think Alp likes you Mick, and I think he likes me. That’s why I tried to talk to him instead of returning insult for insult.

  • Layla

    Bjarne, I get it now, burn a CD. That was hilarious. And a pun, no less. Some say the pun is the lowest form of humor, but Shakespeare was very fond of the pun. I will Email it to my Danish-Norwegion mother.

  • Layla

    Bjarne, this is what my Moslem friends are saying:

    1. A children’s book like the kind the Danes wanted is a good idea.
    2. My friends don’t want to see the cartoons. They went to a meeting and heard a description of the cartoons, but they don’t want to see it.
    3. They heard there is a different standard for what you can say about public figures and private citizens; this is true here in America. They were especially interested in the reason…famous people and ordinary people.
    4. Our largest local newspaper (which some say leans Rebublican), has decided against printing the cartoons. The reason they gave was ethnic stereotyping. In particular, some time ago they printed a cartoon with Ariel Sharon with a very large bird beak nose. Some said it was a Jewish nose. The paper then gave an apology for the cartoon with the nose. The same newspaper says the picture with the bomb in the hat is the same thing against Middle Eastern people. My friends were very interested in this exact Jewish reason for not printing a Moslem cartoon.

    Of course the Danish law is probably different from American law, but our traditions came from British common law which came from the Danelaw in England, so there is a common root and a common cultural tradition.

    My friends were not born here. They are very religious, but don’t believe in hate.

    I like the idea of the book. When I was a child I read all kinds of books about all religions and the old Greek and Roman myths. I don’t remember reading anything about Islam. The children need a book about this with pictures so they know the story about Mohammed and this important religion. But most Danish children are not Moslem children and they always have pictures in their books.

  • Drewski

    This is the best discussion I have ever taken hours out of work to read.. I miss abu..

  • Layla

    Bjarne thank you for saying nice things about my writing. I taught English to many nationalities and I know the slang English and the conversational English are very difficult, even for very advanced students. So sometimes I like to play with informal English and have fun because I know native English speakers will read this, and sometimes I remember the people who speak English as a second language, and I write only the kind of grammar and vocabulary I know in some other language. I hope you understand a large part of my ideas.

    I want to say one more thing and then I will really, really, really sit back and let someone else have a chance to say something.

    You know, in every place where there are 2 cultures, there is a difficulty. There is pressure between the different people. In the U.S. we have a large hispanic population of people from Mexico who speak Spanish. Sometimes the conflict is between the new immigrants and the old immigrants. They maybe don’t take the same jobs as the English-speaking Americans. So they compete with other Spanish-speaking people for the same jobs and resources. As more and more Mexicans come in, there is less opportunity for the ones who came first. Or maybe the job is working as a translator or providing social services in Spanish for the new people. So the first people want to make laws, like requiring Spanish language in public, that will keep jobs for themselves and discourage the newer people from learning English and competing with them.

    So maybe the cartoon thing is not a global religious conflict between civilizations. Maybe it is just a fight between the new Moslem immigrants and the old Moslem immigrants in Denmark. Where did the first demonstration start? Gaza. Who went there? Abu Laban from Denmark. Why did the demonstrators in Gaza say they were rioting and burning? Because of a cartoon of a pig. We know there was no such cartoon, because we saw the Danish newspaper on the internet. But in Gaza they saw a cartoon with a pig. Imam Abu Laban had a picture of a cartoon with a pig. Abu Laban is telling the new immigrants, “I have wasta, I have power, I have strong friends in Gaza who will help me.” So the Danish boycott is not about Denmark. It is a message to the new immigrants, “Don’t come. We will close the visa for you.”

    Who benefits when the websites with the newspaper cartoons are shut down? So no one can see 12 cartoons and not one of them with a pig? Who wants to keep this information away from the Moslem world? Why is it so difficult to read the Danish newspapers in English? Every time I tried to read one small thing in the Danish papers, the hackers froze my computer. What don’t they want me to see? That the Danish lawmakers want to limit immigration from Moslem countries.

    No more visas for Moslems. Who does this benefit? Who wins? The old immigrants. This explanation has everything in it…for the West the picture of the pig they will not be quiet about and from the Moslem world the idea of a conspiracy and looking for the person who gets something as a result of a world event. Think about it.

  • Ralph

    Johnny Logic,

    This IS about America bullying the world.

    The Muslim response is not “just” to a cartoon. It is a response to decades of wars, sanctions, bombings, support of totalitarian governments, and oil-hungry realpolitik. This has been accompanied by repeated desecration of Islamic symbols, along with repeated torture and sexual humiliation of Arabs by the American military and government.

    Abu Ghraib was not an isolated incident. The policy of torture and humiliation went right to the top, with Rumsfeld on record approving “interrogation” techniques like near-drowning and the use of dogs and the White House counsel calling the Geneva Conventions “quaint.”

    To say that everyone responsible for Abu Ghraib has been brought to justice is just as much a lie as the conspiracy theories that put Bush behind 9/11. I do not intend to insult you by saying this, but it is the truth. There is much evidence you may not be aware of–check Human Rights Watch for a start.

    I wish with all my heart that the United States of America had not embarked on a policy of war of aggression, distortion of intelligence, torture, humiliation, and support for corrupt totalitarian governments. But it has. It’s the truth, and the truth is the only thing that will set us free. It is the only place we will ever find common ground.

    There is a difference between the kind of faith that gives you the strength to face the truth and the kind that coddles you with wishful thinking. Who will say this?

    It’s all too easy for us Americans to tell the rest of the world to wake up to “reality,” while we indulge in our own wishful thinking about American benevolence. It’s all too easy for us to get on our high horse and demand non-violence from others while American bombs fall around the world like rain. It’s all too easy for us to look down our noses at someone else’s preoccupation with symbols, while we fetishize our cross and our flag.

    We expect Muslims to look at an image of Mohammed and think immediately of the principle of freedom of speech, but is this the first thing we think of when we see an American flag burning?

    It’s all too easy to say this was “just” a cartoon. It wasn’t. It was the last straw in a series of insults and degradations. I’m not saying that necessarily justifies all of the responses to it, but shouldn’t we take the beam out of our own eye first?

    Who will say this? Who will call us to the truth? Who will speak without pandering for votes or tithes or ratings?

  • An American Mick

    Ralph,
    I wasn’t really trying to insult Alp, actually. Read the entire page for history, if you haven’t already. I posted what I thought were clear, logical questions and arguments in a debate. I tried hard to connect with him in a way that enlightented us both. He replied with childish personal insults, and then a lot of repetitious, vile stuff that still didn’t really answer any questions. He basically gave a non-answer, then kept saying “I already answered that.”

    I was only trying to warn you that your points were being thrown against a brick wall. I have no desire to insult Alp. I have a desire to get to a point where our liberties are understood and respected by people like Alp who have subordinated their own liberty to restrictive religious controls. Alp foretells a global conflict that will bury our western ideals. A lot of people think like Alp. It would be good if there could be some progress away from that eventuality, and I was hoping to play a small part. It was a frustrating exercise in futility, as far as I could see.

    Alp, I’m sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent. I tried to offer some points for you to consider, and I asked some questions. You responded with personal attacks and childish insults. I was frustrated by that, and still am.

    Alp, we have a system here in the west that allows everyone, including you, to worship any way you like, as long as nobody gets hurt. Even Satan worshippers are tolerated, because to forbid their religion would lead to someone forbidding yours. None of us in America want that to happen, ever, and we have given a lot of blood to make sure it doesn’t. We have a firm belief in our right to determine our own destinies, even if the destiny we choose turns out to be eternity in hell. We will defend that right with blood, too, if necessary. That way, you can come here and practice your religion in peace without fear that someone will blow up your mosque. I think that’s something even you could try to respect.

    I won’t continue to argue here, because I fear my frustration with the ‘discussion’ has rendered me less effective. Alp has not convinced me that I or my country are evil. I already knew my president is, but that’s another matter. I have not convinced Alp, or anyone else, that there’s another perspective that might be worth considering, or that killing innocent people can not and should not be defended, tolerated, or even ignored by the people in whose God’s name it is being done. It’s not my nature to argue for the sake of arguing, so I won’t. I just really hope there are enough level heads in the world to rise above the emotion and rhetoric to a place where we can find more peace and less war, and more justice and less terror.

    I see the continued terror being used as an excuse for a bad president to exercise more power. There are precious few people on this earth who think that’s a good thing, and even if only for THAT reason, I wish it would stop. But in addition to that reason, every innocent person killed is an injustice to each of us, no matter what ‘side’ we’re on, and should be regarded by any decent ‘God’ as a blasphemy against his name. A real god, one who is greater than the average man, would surely think an innocent death a far greater offense than some silly cartoon that just reflects someone’s honest perception of an issue.

    I wish only the best for you, Alp, and among other things, freedom from conflict and the lifelong right to practice your religion in peace.

  • Ralph,

    I disagree, this discussion is not about the bully America has become. This discusion is about cartoons and muslims using this issue to again drive a wedge between themselves and others in the world. Why is protesting and boycotting not enough? Why is it that peoples lives must be threatened? I’m not sure how, but I didn’t mean to imply that everyone involved in the Abu Graib issue was brought to justice. No, that didn’t happen and probably won’t happen. The point was that we do have a system to correct things like that whereas the muslim world makes no effort to correct inustices unless of course it is against muslims and even then it is at the point of an AK-47, machete, or bomb. If that is their approved method of justice, fine, so be it, but leave it in your country. Stop blowing up commuter trains in Lindon and Spain, stop bombing shops and marketplaces in asia, stop hijacking planes and running them into buildings.

    The silly cartoons, and yes they are silly, were not even an issue in Denmark until some imam added three more offensive ones and brought them to the mid east to incite violence and backlash. It has never been explained why he added three that had never even been published before. There appears to be a darker side to islam than what they would have you believe and is evidenced by the majorities silence over these acts that kill innocent people.

    I’m not advocating the war that the americans started in Iraq, that is a total messs of which we should be held responsible, but the use of terrorism by muslims in the world well predates this war. This is just another reason for them to justify what they do. If you have never seen the brutality of severing a live persons head, I urge you to watch the video clips of the many innocent people who’ve suffered this inhumane death and then tell me when was the last time was someone other than a muslim perpetrated something like this?

    I would never profess that america or it’s people are squeaky clean and that there is no injustice here or in other places caused by us or our people. However, there becomes a point when blaming us for everything gets tiring. I am open to learn what is truly going on and what other people thinkof it, but I won’t be forced into an opinion based upon intimidation and weak arguments. Until their own leaders (imams) stop preaching violence and others in the muslim community start standing up against those who hurt and persecute others in the name of their god, I’ll have little respect for the faith. Now last time I said something like that I was told there are muslims standing up against the violent acts and I won’t dispute that, however, it is few and far between when you consider there are over a billion muslims around the world. Here, we have one idiot like Pat Robertson publicly imply we should assassinate another country’s leader and a vast number of Christians/Americans reminded him that we will not tolerate that kind of thing. He spoke only words and we reacted, why can muslims actually carry out murderous acts and most remain silent on the issue?

    Why is it that I have to put up with South Park desecrating our image of Christ through animation but muslims appear to have the right to violently protest two dimensional drawings of which three never even made it to print and feel justified to kidnap and kill others over it?

    I’m not closed minded and I appreciate all the intelligent arguments being made on this discussion page, but so far, I’ve not seen any compelling arugments to justify the behavior of muslims. Again, with that said, I’m also not gonna try and defend everything that America has done because we are not perfect, but our methods of resolving things although slower, are more humane and civil than publicly removing someones head, leaving the body and head on the street for all to see (including kids) with a note saying whoever moves the body will have the same fate. Somehow, something inside me says, that’s not right.

  • An American Mick

    Johnny Logic,
    Well said. I have to agree that I haven’t seen anyone here even try to imply that America is right and everyone else is wrong. I’ve seen a lot of us acknowledge America’s shortcomings, and then try to get back to the original point: death threats and violence over cartoons published in an independent newspaper in a free country.

    If we begin to justify the violent approach because there has been injustice in other places, then where does it stop, Ralph? I lost a close friend on 9/11/01. Am I now justified in vengeance against whomever I percieve to be responsible? Mind you, my perception could be wrong, and the target of my revenge indiscriminate. If I’m near the last straw and resort to violence because I have long felt powerless, will you defend me? How about if I just claim that it’s my culture and expect you to respect the difference between our cultures?

    No. Violence is wrong, no matter what. It is unacceptable from any “side” as a solution to anything. The war in Iraq is, and always was, in my opinion, wrong. Terrorism is, and always will be wrong. Wanting to execute a cartoonist because he published his views, no matter how offensive, is wrong, and must ALWAYS be considered so. No matter what. Yes, we must try to understand Islam in the interest of peace. But NO, we must not excuse or tolerate violence, threats, and extremism, no matter where it comes from or what ‘inspired’ it.

    We expect Muslims who are offended by pictures of Mohammed to say so, loudly if necessary, and make their point, but not to do violence and make threats over it, no matter how many other things in the world are wrong or unjust. Is that really so unreasonable?

  • Ralph

    But Mick,

    You DID insult Alp. You called him witless, and now you call him the equivalent of a brick wall.

    You chose to insult someone. Even if he invited you to join in a downward spiral of insults, you could have said no. But you accepted. It’s your responsibility, not Alp’s.

    I understand what you might be thinking: I don’t need someone to preach at me.

    In my opinion, that is exactly what you need. You need someone to preach to you who will not pander to the worst in you, who will not indulge your vices and bigotries and call them “moral values.” You need someone to preach to you who isn’t thinking “What can I say to appeal to more people, to bring in more tithes, to build a great glittering sanctuary for my own glory?” You need someone who will not pound the pulpit in a self-righteous rage against the wrong kind of love, as though there were too much love in the world and we could afford not to cherish it all.

    Who will say this?

    Let us remove the beam first from our own eyes. How easily we ask of others what we will not ask of ourselves. America is not evil, you say. That is a comforting thought, but is it true? How far is it from torture to evil? How far from the Bush administration’s contempt for humane prisoner treatment to torture? How far from the American electorate to the Bush administration?

    Yet America’s pulpits are ablaze with thundering condemnations of love, and hardly a word against torture. “We wouldn’t want to offend our parishoners,” our so-called spiritual leaders say. “Do what makes you feel good,” say our “alternative” gurus. “Better tone that down, it could hurt our ratings” say our self-anointed “truth tellers” in the media.

    No one will tell the truth. Evil does not take the form of what you hate. It is the hate itself. Evil is beautiful, not ugly; appealing, not revolting. It tempts us with the sweetest of pseudo-spiritual candy, free from the bitter medicine of genuine introspection. “America is not evil. No, no. Have some more candy!” it purrs seductively. “Don’t you love your shiny cross and your pretty flag? Doesn’t that righteous rage feel good?”

    Evil addicts us to appealing symbols, while it slowly drains away what those symbols stand for. It leaves us with a cross bled dry of love for our fellow man, the Stars and Stripes emptied of the moral accountability that goes with civic responsibility. But we don’t notice–don’t want to notice–because we are hooked on the sugary seduction of the hollowed-out idol, the self-satisfied pride that comes from wearing the empty emblem as a mark of superiority.

    The Islamic world points to the mote in the American eye, and Americans respond by pointing to the mote in theirs. Who loves the truth enough to clear their own vision first? Who will shine a light into the darkness? And while the darkness lasts, who will bear witness to what lurks there?

    Who will say this? And who will listen?

  • An American Mick

    Ralph,
    Uhhh, I need someone to preach to me? I think not. I’m quite capable of thinking for myself, observing the world around me, and drawing my own conclusions without having them pointed out by someone who thinks themselves better qualified to interpret them and preach to me about them.

    If you need a preacher, suit yourself. Just ’cause you do, doesn’t mean the rest of us do. You want to be a preacher, find another sheep to shepherd. I apologized to Alp for the insult, which is the best I can do. Is that not accepting responsibility? If it isn’t enough, well, then, shucks, I don’t know what else you want from me. I won’t get saved, if that’s coming next.

    By the way, Ralph, you sound a lot like YOU’RE pounding a pulpit in self-righteous rage. You also sound like a pretty judgmental guy. That doesn’t make an impression on me one way or the other, except to make me think you need to find a congregation that will put stock in what you have to say.

    Thanks for your interest in my moral growth, though. I’m touched.

  • Ralph,

    Very well spoken, however, I would add that we are all predisposed to being evil, and none, no not one is worthy. It is what we do with that awareness that makes us civil and able to embark on a life of adding value to our families, communities, countries, and this world. Many do not see adding value as their obligation. They are content with spewing venom at others, ignoring injustices, and inciting others to their way of thinking and acting regardless of how taxing it is to the quality of life of others around them.

    You make a good argument about how we are all products of our environment. Who will enlighten any of us if we are not open to it? It will be falling on deaf ears I’m afraid. Do we have an obligation to teach others what they do not know? Or, is the responsibility to be open and receptive greater? Of course I don’t know the answers to these questions, but I would ask, since none of us are all knowing, should we not make efforts to do no harm in a world where it is easy to see so many injustices happening all around us?

    I feel as poorly about the drug addicts who are stealing for their habit as I do about the muslims who have been subject to injustices by their own governments, the foreign policies of others, etc. Some are unable to see the circumstances they are in and it is up to those who do see it to help.

    The long standing fued between jews and muslims will never be resolved through hate and violence…never. There must be some compromise and willingness. However it would seem that the hate that has built up will continue to blind those who otherwise would see that behavioral modifications on both sides would reap benefits for the greater good. In this situation, it is always easier to see the injustices than it is to look past them and work towards a compromise, but it must be done. All those with a conscience should stand against their own and reason for the good of all since neither side is receptive to the other. It seems from an outsiders point of view that the muslim community is afraid of being targeted by extremists if they stand up to say let’s work together and get past …the past. If that’s not the case then could it be that the muslims are their own worst enemy since they’re actions and inactions are rarely for the good of all? Is the muslim faith being hijacked by extremists? If so, why would others not stand against it?

    I admit I am not an expert on these matters, just one who notes observations and who would love to someday travel safely to all parts of the world without the threat of being targeted for the color of my skin, faith, or nationality. I would have hoped that desire would be the samefor all, but obviously is not.

  • Nidha Yaqub

    TAKE OFF THIS STUFFF ABOUT MUHAMMAD THE PROPHET
    ITS CALLED BEING RACIST
    STOP THIS.
    BEFORE ANOTHER SEPTEMBER THE 11th HAPPENS!
    its not a threat i’m just saying that maybe some other
    so called “terrorist” is gonna go bomb down some towers in France!!!
    Makeing a drawing of Prophet Muhammad is like someone making fun of your mother.
    stand up to this racism stop drawing comics like this
    Maybe muslims are labelled terrorists but I for one am a MUSLIM!
    and i do not believe that i am a terrorist.
    IF someone was to make fun on Jesus and he or she was muslim i bet that there would be many
    Portests being held agaisnt muslims But muslims belive IN JESUS we would never do such a thing and if such a thing has ever happened I FOR ONE AM SORRY .
    I AM 15 years old I AM YOUR FUTURE.
    IF YOU START BEING RACIST TOWARDS MY RELIGION I WILL STAND UP AND PROTEST.

  • Jim

    1. Fine, go ahead, protest. It’s your right. I don’t have a problem with that.

    2. I don’t believe anyone here thinks that all Muslims are terrorists. We know that’s not true.

    3. What you’re talking about is not racist (a belief in differences according to race), it’s religionist (a belief in differences according to religion). And yes, I do believe that there are differences according to religion because, well, there are. They’re called different belief systems. That’s what religions are — distinct belief systems.

    4. To the extent that your religious institutions and adherents attempt to control the behavior of people like me who do not subscribe to it, I will oppose your religion’s efforts. You have the right to believe what you want to believe, but I have the right to not be subject to your belief standards.

    5. Not everyone here is Christian (in fact, it would be fair to say that many if not most of us are non-Christian).

    6. However, As I’ve shown explicitly in another post, I feel perfectly comfortable with the drawing of comics that skewer my own sacred cows. Comfortable enough that I’ve drawn them myself. You want to draw insulting comics of American atheists, go right ahead.

    7. If a terrorist bombs some tower in France because someone scribbles a picture of something on a piece of paper, I think the terrorist is the problem. And I don’t think you’re going to calm down people who blow up towers over scribbles by refusing to make any more scribbles. I think they’ll just move on to something else to blow up towers over…

    8. Kind of like George W. Bush, who wanted a war so badly he made shit up so he could have one. Most of us commenting here disagree with you over the Mohammed Comics but actually strongly sympathize with the countless (and uncounted) innocent people in the Arab world who have killed because of American warmongers like Bush. We at Irregular Times opposed the war voiciferously and did all we could to stop it from happening. We failed and we’re sorry for it, not only because it was wrong but because I think this is the source of terrorism. It’s a cycle of violence: innocent people get killed, therefore people kill innocent people, therefore innocent people get killed… a sad side effect is that despots take advantage of the fear and hate to squelch others’ freedoms as well as their lives.

  • Jim

    Here’s an aside. I’ve noted a number of Muslims posting here that they’d never insult Jesus because he’s one of their prophets, too. I’m just wondering (and would love to hear a response): what if, hypothetically speaking, he wasn’t an Islamic prophet? Would it be ok by you then? If not, ok, I disagree with you but at least you’re consistent. If it would be ok under those conditions, then gosh and crackers, all you’re saying is don’t mess with the Islamic prophets, but the other ones are fair game.

  • Layla

    Ralph,

    There is a story about a guy who got a piece of limberger cheese stuck under his nose. Everywhere he went he could only smell limberger cheese, so he concluded the whole world smelled like limberger cheese.

    If the pulpit where you worship does not speak out enough against torture, then you could have a little chat with the pastor or with some members of the your church’s social justice committee, or take some initiative in inviting outside speakers, or even find another church that does meet your spiritual needs. It is a deeply troubling issue, and I believe a spiritual one. If you really feel so strongly that someone needs to be more active on the issue, maybe that someone is you, and it all starts with public discussion.

    This is what I heard from the pulpit:

    The picture of the prisoner with head covered and arms outstretched is Jesus. This is exactly the position of Jesus on the cross. Jesus was a prisoner in an occupied country; he was tortured and humiliated by Roman soldiers. This is what we worship. This is God. The picture of the tortured prisoner is a picture of Jesus.

    (oh, oh, here come the graven-image fanatics with a death threat)

    Since I read the Bible myself on occasion, when I am not busy reading Koran, I think this problem calls for Matthew 25:31-45 on separating the sheep from the goats. Read especially verse 44-45 about prisoners. On the other hand, a friend of mine who is a born-again pagan says when they separate the sheep from the goats, the sheep get eaten. Take your pick. Like Alp says, it’s like saying to someone, show me God. There is no proof for God. It’s a question of belief.

    I also think that, as distasteful as it is, you have to keep an open mind on the subject in order to engage in useful public debate. What if you were in charge of 3 prisoners and one of them had the information about the next terrorist attack. If you could use torture to get the information, you could save the lives of two thousand people. Civilians. What if it was 25 prisoners? 200 prisoners? What if you could save one journalist by torturing a civilian who has information? What if the Geneva convention says you can use near drowning, sleep deprivation…would you become a torturer to save innocent lives? Even if it means becoming a terrorist of sorts yourself? Give me a nice job sweeping floors so I don’t have to think about disgusting stuff like that.

    By the way, I’m not at all sure that apologizing to Alp was a good move. It seems like the only time we actually get to dialogue with any real Muslims is when someone makes extreme and outrageous statements. And Mick’s remark was a pretty old joke, and a mild one at that. And Mick’s still ticked off; so am I for that matter. But if someone communicates by standing on their head, then why don’t we try standing on our heads. I really thought I detected a kind of camaraderie in Alp’s tone that made me think he was joking. But with a language barrier it’s hard to tell, so I still think it’s best to have things in the open and not play games.

    At first I thought Alp was a crackpot, but after listening to him and reading between the lines, I think he is someone who is in touch with the Street and talks to people and tries to puzzle out answers. I don’t know if Turkey has free press. He really did tell us quite a lot, but I would like to hear him say more. It seems to us he’s stonewalling, and it seems to him we’re trying to pounce on him and back him in a corner, but it’s just cultural difference that makes it seem that way. If he doesn’t come back soon to answer for himself, I might undertake to put words in his mouth and try to explain what he said.

  • Ralph

    Mick,

    Of course I judge. We all judge. How do we act morally if we do not judge right from wrong? How do we have an honest conversation and find our way to the truth without judging?

    You have judged Muslims here, very harshly. You have challenged Muslims to face up to the demagogues who manipulate the symbols for the things they hold most dear in the service of violence and brutality. Will you join them?

    When I say to Alp that “I hold myself to a higher moral standard. Do you?” You say that I have spoken “rationally, logically, and truthfully.” But when I pose the same challenge to you, you react very differently. Why?

    It’s your right to judge me, too, of course. And it is also Alp’s right.

    When Alp points out the history of America’s terror, I stings me to the core. I love America very deeply, and I wish very strongly it weren’t true. The evidence doesn’t support all his accusations. But about many things, he is right. Has America supported terror? Who was it that helped set up the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan as a base from which a small group of determined Islamic fundamentalists with an international network of support could launch attacks indefinitely against a superpower? Who gave those Islamic fundamentalists the equipment and training they needed? Alp has the right to judge me. He has the right to challenge me to face up to the truth. It is my choice whether I will accept the truth or indulge in wishful thinking.

    I know truth and judgment are not popular. But I think they are still important. They are what will save us.

    Johnny,

    I agree that it’s our responsibility to speak up wherever we see injustice, whether it is here or abroad. In a free world, which I believe in, everyone has the right and responsibility to judge right from wrong and to speak up for what is right.

    The question is, how do we persuade others? When the United States of America perpetrates torture, humiliation and desecration, we lose whatever power we may have had to convince others to do the right thing.

    Your statement that “our methods of resolving things although slower, are more humane and civil than publicly removing someones head,” is, unfortunately, untrue. America’s methods in the war on terror include near drowning, electrocution, beating, sexual humiliation, ritual defilement through the smearing of fake menstrual blood, religious desecration, and subjection to extreme heat and cold.

    These things are evil in and of themselves, but the evil extends beyond them. It takes away our power to persuade others to do the right thing. There is one way to take that power back, and use it for the good of the world: a genuine commitment to truth and justice.

    Layla,

    You have been misinformed about depleted uranium. You are correct that it is less radioactive than raw uranium ore or enriched uranium, but it is still radioactive at a level that can be distinguished from background radiation. Furthermore, it is a toxic heavy metal. It explodes into small particles on contact that can very easily be inhaled or contaminate soil and water. Children put themselves at risk if they pick up pieces of it and play with them, as they sometimes do (the same goes for unexploded cluster bomblets, which kill large numbers of children). The exact amount of increased environmental radiation necessary to pose a serious health risk is the topic of debate, but no one denies that depleted uranium is both toxic and radioactive. America has used thousands of tons in Iraq, and intends to continue using it.

    The issue of intent, in my opinion, rings hollow. If you do something that you know will have a given result, can you really say that result is unintended? When we bomb a city, we know civilians will die, even if we’re not aiming for them. Yet we bomb anyway, then say we didn’t “intend” to kill any civilians. It boils down to the distinction between “doing something intentionally, knowing it will kill civilians,” and “intentionally killing civilians.” Maybe you can make a semantic distinction, but can you make a moral one?

  • Jim,

    as always, well said. I particularly like #7. Without every living human being bowing down to their god, I don’t think muslims will be happy. And, what ever happened to fighting fire with fire? Can’t they just start making silly cartoons of jews or something in response…oh wait, they’ve been doing that for a long time!

  • Layla

    Nidha Yaqub,

    I am Christian and I like Jim’s comic about Jesus talking to Prophet Mohammed. First it is funny and makes me laugh, then it makes me think about world problems in a new way, especially since Jesus and prophet Mohammed were both very wise lawgivers and also very compassionate. In this comic they are sad because the people who believe in them are not acting right.

    Jim’s Comic: Jesus talking with prophet Mohammed

    I lived with Moslems for 2 years in the Middle East, and I never heard anything bad about drawing pictures of Mohammed. This is something new for me. It is hard for me to understand. We don’t think anything about drawing pictures of important or famous people, especially if they were teachers or lawgivers. I guess this is called a cultural difference. I don’t know if you think you can explain it, but if you want to try, I will try to understand.

    The other important reason to make a comic is to make people think about war. In America, only the President and the Congress can start a war. Churches can not start a war. The American people vote for the President and they vote for Congress. If they think the war is a bad idea, they will stop voting for these people.

    Right now in the Middle East, some people in mosques are making wars. No one voted for them. No one even knows who they are. Maybe no one can stop them from making wars. The wars hurt many people and they are always bad no matter who starts them. But you see the difficulty of stopping wars when they are started in secret.

    I hope you never have to fight in a war. I hope some day I will go to the Middle East as a tourist and see many beautiful mosques.

  • Layla

    Of course Jim, you remember the hue and cry from the Moslem world when the Taliban blew up the huge thousand-of-years-old Bamiyan Buddha in Afghanistan? Now that I mention it, I don’t remember one either, not in the Middle East. At least the American Moslems must have protested?

  • An American Mick

    Ralph,
    I repeat, once again: I have already loudly condemned our government’s many stupid, wrong-headed, arrogant, short-sighted, illegal actions across the world. Let’s get back to the core question of this discussion page, which has nothing to do with the US. Perhaps YOU can explain it to me now: how is it right to make death threats against cartoonists who express their opinions, however insulting they may be to some people? How do we reconcile free speech with Islamic sensitivity and objection to other cultures?

    How does America’s ineptitude in certain things make Islamic violence okay? Do any of the GOOD things the US does (and yes, I’m sorry – there ARE some good things the US does) place a corresponding burden on the rest of the world? Or is it your contention that the US is purely evil, with no redeeming characteristics, and is the cause of all that is wrong in the world, and justifies any and all foreign atrocities?

    I agree that the US has to get itself straight on a lot of things, like ending its support for radicals who are fighting our ‘enemies’, and who later turn their wrath on us and others, and all the other things both you and I have mentioned, as well as a lot we haven’t. We do have to fix all those unacceptable things about our own country, yes.

    But that does NOT preclude our individual outrage over the behavior of ‘religious’ people around the world in response to the free expression of a few cartoonists in their independent newspaper in their free country. We do not have to wait for the US to become above all reproach before we are allowed to feel and express outrage over the bizarre and unacceptable actions of people in other places.

    Perhaps we can multitask, and find time to be concerned about many things at once.

  • Ralph

    Mick,

    “The core question of the discussion page” has “nothing to do with the U.S?” I have already explained why in my opinion the response in the Islamic world is not “just” about a cartoon, but about a series of attacks, humiliations and degradations that the Islamic world has endured from Europe and America for a very long time (557). Do you agree, or disagree?

    “How do we reconcile free speech with Islamic sensitivity?” If the United States and Europe genuinely reverse their longstanding patterns of violent, degrading, and humiliating acts toward the Islamic world, this will change the conditions under which demagogues can whip up anti-Western outrage over religious symbols.

    Am I saying America is “pure evil?” No. Pure evil has no power. Evil can only work in the world in the shadow of a superficial attachment to good.

    Is America “the only source of evil in the world?” No.

    Do America’s evil actions preclude our individual objections to violent responses to cartoons? No. But they undermine our credibility when we do object, even if our basis for objecting is morally sound. I’m not saying that’s how it should be, but that’s how it is.

    When America does good, does it place a burden on the rest of the world? Yes. When we uphold high standards for labor, education, the environment, medical care, disaster preparedness, humane treatment of prisoners, etc., we challenge other countries to live up to the same standards. There are other examples, of course, and we could debate just how much good America has been doing internationally, especially of late. Certainly there is some, such as our recent efforts to fight AIDS in Africa, and it deserves praise and support.

    Finally to the question you pose repeatedly: Does this justify violence over cartoons? No. Suicide bombers who target civilians desecrate images of God created by God himself. No other evil anywhere else can make this good.

    Must we ignore one evil to criticize another? Most people seem to think so. “But,” they say, “look at THEM.” Beware the evil in those you already hate–gays, Muslims, atheists, Jews, whatever it may be. It’s the oldest trick around: Evil takes two forms at once–one you despise and one you love–and chases frightened and deceived people into its own embrace.

    This goes to the heart of the point you are trying to make. You are asking Muslims to reject the evil that disguises itself as that which they most love. I think Americans can and must do this for other countries and cultures around the world, and I support you in your effort. The best way to do this is to provide an example by rejecting the evil that disguises itself as what WE most love.

    If you think that “the point” is one evil and not another, I suggest you reconsider. You’re making the same point as the Muslims you accuse of not listening: Why should I reject the evil that disguises itself as what I love? Look at the evil in that which I despise!

    Evil has divided us against each other, and plays us all for fools.

  • Layla

    The hyperlink for the cartoon with Jesus and Mohammed didn’t work. I ‘ll try it again:

    http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2006/02/04/mohammed-comics-number-4-with-special-guest-star-jesus-christ/

    Ralph,

    I think there is a pretty big difference between civilians caught in crossfire and intentionally targeting civilians. If intention wasn’t important Cheney would be in jail right now for shooting his Republican contributor buddy. Cheney does have a lot of other things to answer for in terms of policy decisions and his relationship with military contractors.

    You seem to be arguing that it is okay to secretly plan to run airplanes into tall buildings, kidnap civilians off the street, and send suicide bombers into weddings as long as you are Moslem. But if you are American you are just supposed to let people kill you unless you can be 100% sure no civilians will ever accidentally get in the way, or intentionally be put in the way.

    A lot of the examples you give to support demonizing America are only assertions, and I know for a fact that some of them are not true, as I know others are true and others are stated out of context or pure guesses. Asserting these things does not make them true, just as asserting there are WMD does not make that true either. It really weakens your moral indignation when your examples have not been researched.

    One of my Arab students once said to me that in every people there is good and bad. The measure of a culture is not in whether evil can happen, but in how the culture responds to evil when it does happen. Our wheels turn slowly, but they do turn. It’s hard to identify any wheels in the Arab system.

    Mick,

    I always look forward to reading your posts, and your words really resonate with what I value about my country. I don’t always agree 100%…for example, the neo-pagans here would say Satan is a Christian construct. But, please don’t give up writing, you are effective, and many times you speak for me and are able to put into words the ideas that I would like to express.

  • Mickette

    Ralph,

    What the cartoon protesters do not realize is that by resorting to violence they have unwittingly reinforced the worst prejudices of those detractors of Islam. These kinds of violent or evil protest has given me reason to link your religion to terror. Peaceful protest would have served the cause of Islam better. Such protest calls for a certain degree of restraint. It is true that in some of the protest Muslims have shown remarkable control over their emotions. But it should have been the norm.

    After all, it is said that when the Prophet was hurled with abuse and taunted with insults, even when he was physically attacked, he displayed tremendious restraint. Surely, the least that those who are protesting in his name can do is to try to emulate his example.

    Unfortunately, (with maybe the exception of you), most Muslims on this blog are not aware of the work that some bridge builders such as Mick and some others on this blog are trying to do.

  • Mickette

    Ralph,
    I never said we should ignore our own shortcomings. I never suggested one evil is worse than another. I don’t hate Moslems, gays, or Jews. I truly don’t hate anyone. I’ve dated Jewish girls (but have been called an anti-Semite here), I have close gay friends, I speak Arabic fairly fluently, and I have studied the Koran and Arab culture in some depth. I sympathize with Arabs a lot more, I think, than the average American does. You seem to have made some assumptions about me without really knowing anything about me, except for my objection to Moslems wanting to force others to forsake their free speech in deference to their religion. That’s not, by far, the only thing in the world to which I object. It’s just the thing to which I object that happens to be the topic of this blog.

    Do I agree, or disagree: I disagree. I think the reaction to the cartoons stems more from Moslem disdain for Western culture, and their idea that Islam should somehow overcome and abolish Western decadence and our general disrespect for God and religion. The Arab world has profited quite nicely from our dependence on the one precious resource they control. If those profits have not benefitted all Arabs, I’d say that’s primarily an Arab problem. Many cultures have suffered injustice at some point. Arabs have suffered no more injustice than many other cultures have. Internal injustices far outweigh any visited upon them by others. In no case has percieved injustice ever been considered cause for violence against innocents (think the IRA, Bosnia, and a hundred other examples). Nor should it be considered so now.

    I hate ignorance and violence, no matter who or where it comes from. It particularly pains me to see it coming from the ‘leadership’ of my nation. I believe the current administrative branch should be impeached and incarcerated, exactly for some of the reasons you’ve indicated, and for others you haven’t. To be fair, though, I think it’s important to speak out against ALL attempts to rule others through violence, threats, and intimidation. I can’t, and won’t, ignore one shining example of such behavior simply because there are others closer to home. To the contrary, I’ll speak out loudly against them all, hopefully in the places where it will do the most good.

    I hesitate to speak in terms of ‘evil’. Evil smacks of religion, which I reject. ‘Evil’ is an ambiguous term for some shadowy, seducing entity (anti-god) that somehow affects or manipulates human behavior and thinking. I’d rather use more concrete terms, like ‘illegal invasion’, ‘violent repression of speech’, ‘terrorist act against innocents’, or other appropriate terms that are specific and that assign responsibility where it belongs – to the humans who carry them out.

    By the way, I don’t hate you, either. I appreciate the opportunity to hear your opinions, even if I might find them a little abrasive at times, and express mine in return, even if you find them, well, whatever you find them to be. That’s the nature of truly intelligent discourse, after all, isn’t it?

    Layla,
    Thank you for the compliment. I also appreciate your thoughtful, knowledgeable posts. It’s easy to respect the insight your experience has given you into these issues.

  • An American Mick

    Sorry, all. In #576 that was me. I forgot to change the user name after Mickette’s (my girlfriend’s) post.

  • Layla

    Mickette, or was that Mick in #575?

    It is indeed ironic that so much violence has been expended over a political message that questioned the role of violence in Islam. There have been many misunderstandings between the individuals who try to bridge the cultural gap and there will be many more. It is often painful, but I believe rewarding if you can get through it.

    Ralph is Moslem? oh HO. I didn’t pick up on THAT. Yo, Ralph. Habibi. Maybe we can get some explanations about the cartoon thing. Are images actually forbidden? I know in the Christian tradition, the church went back and forth, sometimes smashing images and sometimes ordering people to worship images as an unquestionable part of fatih–over the course of 200 years or so. Does it matter if the images are for worship? Does it matter if non-Moslems make the images? WHAT ABOUT A CHILDREN’S BOOK? It seems like the Danes don’t know too much about Islam and a children’s book with necessary pictures, are needed to start bridging some gaps. Would they really kill the artist? I know this isn’t in Koran, is it in Hadith? we can get plenty of Korans, but how do you get hadith? Is it like some 300 volume set in classical Arabic? Or is this just a cultural thing that no one can explain?

    For those who haven’t been inside a church for a while, I see Sunday’s sermon is on the website now, so here is pasted the salient political portion of it, so y’all can find out what goes on in churches these days:

    “We celebrate Jesus’ victory here, but take note, he is subversive. When we say “amen” to Jesus Christ we are subversive, too. It is subversive to put others’ interests first in a culture built upon the presumption of self-interest before all else. It is subversive to condemn abuse in a time when fear promotes it. It is subversive to reject corruption when it is excused because “everybody is doing it.” It is subversive to repudiate war as a noble cause even when people are being bullied for suggesting such a thing. It is subversive to embrace one another as brothers and sisters when so much of our society is predicated on prejudice.”

    ‘Repudiate war as a noble cause’…has a nice ring to it, you think?

  • An American Mick

    Layla,
    I didn’t get the impression Ralph’s moslem. Mickette (my girlfriend) thinks he might be Moslem. Sorry again for the confusion. I saw her post, but later, when I went to post my comments, I didn’t think to change the nickname back to mine.

  • An American Mick

    ‘Repudiate war as a noble cause’. . . let’s hope that becomes the mantra of all future presidencies.

  • Mickette

    Layla,

    After reading all of Ralphs post I agree, I don’t get the impression he is Moslem. I don’t have a lot of time to devote to this , so I had only read a few of his post where it sounded like he was defending them, so I assumed he was.

    Ralph,

    Sorry for the confusion. But I have to say that evil minds use the many hands of the weak minded. See 9/11, the crusades, the holocaust, etc. Any faith which is threatened when exposed to scrutiny, mockery or free speech/thought is doomed.

    I would like to hear from a thoughtful, articulate Muslem to explain why a group of people can “high jack” your religion, use it for their own political purposes. In the process, they chop off the heads of innocent journalist, kidnap & kill innocent people, fly airplanes loaded with innocent passengers into buildings filled with hard working fathers, mothers and children. They take over schools in Russia and shoot innocent school children in the back.

    In my mind, I would be far more outraged at the people who would hide behind my religion and use it as a platform for such abuses. They do all of this in the name of Islam and yet the Muslim masses do not burn the flags of the countries that harbor and support their activities. They do not threaten to kill them for falsely stating that they are following the teaching of Mohammed.

    This whole incident just makes it easier to give up on Islam and Muslims and just keep one’s distance from a group that thinks it is immune from criticism and parody.

    I thank my God, they can’t terrorize thoughts and ideas and thank my God I live in a society where freedom comes in all shapes and sizes and colors.

    Finally…The Muslim world should look at their own cartoon strips. I have seen a few and they are much worse than this “CONTROVERSY”. Help me understand!

  • Zippy

    It appears to me that neither parts of this discussion are going to agree anything.
    The Islamic religion at is stuck at the moment has not progressed past the literal stage of interpretation of the the Book.
    The Christian religion is wracked by self doubt and is not in a position to say anything appertaining to the Book
    The Jewish religion is too self centered and cannot face reality even when its written in front of them
    in the Book.
    Until all people of these faiths learn to realise that they are of the same flesh and blood and that nearly all have the same anscestor in pre-history, then I’m afraid that the future is very bleak for all of them.

  • Ralph

    So you don’t believe in good and evil, right and wrong? Yet you judge others. On what grounds? If you are truly beyond good and evil, judge no one.

    Good and evil are very real. Whether or not you believe in their existence beyond the world, they are present here with us. They tempt and challenge us every day. True, the seduction of evil is a theme of myth–but tell me how people come to embrace terror or torture if there is no truth to it.

    There are two struggles between good and evil. One is easy and false, the other challenging and genuine:

    One is the way of Bush or bin Laden: I am good, you are evil. I am good because I am fighting evil. I am wise and brave because I use every available means to fight evil. If I must use torture or terror to fight evil, so be it.

    The other is the only path to victory: Fight evil in our own nations and our own selves. We must denounce both terror and torture. We must resist the temptation to use evil means in the fight against evil, lest we become what we fear most.

    You say you “hate” ignorance and violence. Have you risen above good and evil, but not hatred?

  • An American Mick

    Oh, now, Ralph, is it really so wrong to hate ignorance and violence? You’re talking yourself in circles, bud.

  • An American Mick

    I don’t recall saying I’d risen above anything. I think, Ralph, if you try reading more carefully, I wouldn’t have to refer you back to what I REALLY said in #576. Or do you really interpret “I hesitate to talk in terms of…” as “Well, I, for one, have risen above…”

  • Layla

    Ralph, there is certainly Biblical support for hatred of injustice; Jesus did show anger at the moneychangers…but always directed at the sin and not the sinner.

    Mick, there was no confusion. Your longer post was not actually published until the next morning, and I don’t think mine was either, so when I posted my remarks I was not yet able to read your accidental ‘mickette’ posting #576, even though you submitted it an hour before I did. However the short ‘Mick’ posting after it was online right away as #576. The lengthier posts don’t seem to get online very fast at night.

    Zippy, “Until all people of these faiths learn to realise that they are of the same flesh and blood and that nearly all have the same anscestor in pre-history” There seem to be no religious spectators in the Middle East as there are here; you have to be either Jew Moslem or Christian and nothing in between. This is so different from the American custom of worshipping privately outside the public sphere. This to me is the answer, to compartmentalize religion and make it private and protected. “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s.” This separation of church and state has worked well for us.

    Mickette, it WAS you I was talking to. Here is what I understand so far about “them”

    “I would be far more outraged at the people who would hide behind my religion and use it as a platform for such abuses.” I got this a lot in the Middle East. Someone would be very angry with me about Bush, and I had no TV and had never even see the guy when he was elected except for a tiny picture in the paper. So the angry person would say what about this and what about that, and it was something I had never heard of. I was in the position of being expected to defend a policy I knew nothing about. What could I say? Bush calls me every morning before breakfast and asks me what to do? The Turks probably don’t even know what happens in Saudi any more than we know what happens in Canada. Still it was a very interesting exercise, and I think if Moslems get too wierded out, you have to back off a little, ask open-ended questions, and let them tell things in their own words until you have a common language to probe further. Hell, I don’t know, maybe the sledgehammer approach makes as much sense…

    “Any faith which is threatened when exposed to scrutiny, mockery or free speech/thought is doomed.” I am still trying to make up my mind about this one. Among people who are talking to their Moslem friends, it is becoming more and more obvious that they truly are offended by the cartoons. It was hard to believe this at first because there was no outrage when it was first published, it was published many times in many countries before anyone even noticed, there were 3 fake cartoons and the fatal riots occurred conveniently when the governments of those countries would be motivated to distract people from unpopular governmental actions. These citizens are not allowed to protest directly against their government. The cartoon protest was obviously staged. It is now clear to me that at least some level of offense among moderate Moslems is genuine, and I am beginning to take it seriously, in spite of the initial clowning and rioting.

    So now I’m looking back at this Sunday sermon and trying to unpack this sentence the way you have to unzip a condensed computer program before you can run it. ‘It is subversive to repudiate war as a noble cause even when people are being bullied for suggesting such a thing’. ‘Subversive’ being a Christ-like, difficult, and therefore desirable thing, of course. Mick immediately applied the statement to the U.S. government actions. But what if you apply it to terrorist actions? Who is being bullied? Danish cartoonists, for one. They are being bullied for….’repudiating war as a noble cause’. Isn’t that what the cartoons do?

    The two most objectionable cartoons are the bomb in the turban with the shahada (Islamic faith declaration) on the front, and the suicide bombers running out of virgins in paradise. THESE DO NOT LAMPOON ISLAM. THEY LAMPOON THE IDEA OF WAR BEING NOBLY LINKED TO RELIGION. If I was getting ready to bomb a Palestinian wedding, I would find it deeply offensive, and so they should.

    Some random thoughts: 1) Mark Twain’s “War Prayer.” Wasn’t that one he had censorship problems over? Too subversive, lampooning those preachers who glorify war from the pulpit. And now it’s a classic. 2) And Shirley Jackson’s “The Lottery,” about doing things just because they’ve always been done that way. 3) Remember when “In Flanders Fields” from WWI was required reading?…“Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.” (it is sweet and noble to die for your country) 4) There was a movie “The Robe” a long time ago, I think it only showed Jesus’ robe, then at the end of the movie we get to see his hand, never the face. 4) And European beach attire, or lack of it, and all those old wrinkled people showing so much skin. Yet, if you think about it, how is that different from showing a little ankle in the Victorian era? All I can say is, not in America, no, no, never, never, it is a boundary not to be crossed and I can’t say why; and that’s what tempers my reaction to those who are shocked by our own cultural artifacts.

  • Layla

    a decadent way to eat havarti:

    french bread
    slices of havarti on top of bread
    apricot preserves spread over the top of that
    melt cheese-maybe zap 40 sec or so
    eat

  • Ralph

    Mick,

    When you said that “evil smacks of religion, which I reject,” I took that to mean that you didn’t believe in evil.

    Do you believe in evil, or don’t you?

    If you don’t believe in evil, what is your basis for judgement and condemnation of anything? If you do believe in evil, why do you “hesitate to talk in terms” of it?

    Explain the difference between right and wrong–terms you frequently talk in–and good and evil.

    Mickette,

    You say that, “In my mind, I would be far more outraged at the people who would hide behind my religion and use it as a platform for such abuses.”

    Well, are you?

    Are you far more outraged at the people who hide behind Christianity, the rhetoric of democracy, and American nationalism and use them as platforms for abuses?

    I do not hear this outrage from you. Why not?

  • An American Mick

    Ralph,
    Of course I believe in evil. I believe in evil as an adjective, and as a definitive noun, but not as a proper noun. I do not believe in some shadowy animate entity that maliciously entices humans to act in evil ways. People make evil choices, but they are not ‘led’ to those choices by some evil anti-god.

    When evil is viewed as a conscious demonic entity that somehow influences human actions, then responsibility can be placed upon that unseen entity for evil acts. Humans as witless pawns of an evil entity? No. That’s religion, and that’s what I reject. Responsibility for evil lies squarely on the shoulders of those who decide to act in evil ways. ‘The devil made me do it’ doesn’t work for me.

    My basis for condemnation of anything is simple, basic recognition of right and wrong. Right and wrong are not by-products of some convoluted theological battle between unseen superhuman entities who compete for our souls. Right and wrong are simply human intentions to harm or human intentions to not harm. Golden Rule 101.

    These things do not require philosophy or theology to understand.

  • An American Mick

    Ralph,
    Is it possible to be equally outraged by Dick Cheney and by the thugs who plan to execute Jill Carroll? When we express outrage over a thing, should we also provide an exhaustive list of ALL the things that upset us, in an effort to gain credibility with you?

  • Ralph

    You make some curious distinctions about evil: It “smacks of religion,” which you reject. But you believe in evil nevertheless in some grammatical forms but not others. Then you go on to say that these things do not require philosophy or theology to understand. Why then do you insist on claims of the ontological status of supernatural beings and fine grammatical distinctions?

    “Is it possible to be equally outraged by Dick Cheney and by the thugs who plan to execute Jill Carroll?” Of course it is possible. It is also possible to be more outraged by one than another, or to be outraged by one and not the other.

    But that’s not really what you are asking, is it? You’re not really asking a question at all. You’re making a rhetorical appeal to moral absolutes that are grounded neither in philosophy nor in theology, but respond conveniently enough to your own propensity to feel outrage.

    You want to persuade other people, but balk at doing what it takes to establish the credibility necessary to do so. If you don’t feel you should have to establish your own credibilty, then don’t. But there is no need to then wonder aloud why you are unable to convince anybody of anything. If you begin by taking your own feelings of rage and outrage as a foundation for absolutes of right and wrong, you are guaranteen never to convince anyone who doesn’t already agree with you in the first place.

  • Layla

    The Devil is indeed a religious concept, I would even say a Christian one, but its origins are much older. When a god in India named Ahriman was displaced by a god named Ahura, the od of the old religion, Ahriman, became the devil of the new religion. Ahura was later joined by a god named Mazda, but the religions were able to merge and worship the god Ahura-Mazda. The Christian devil is still sometimes called Ahriman.

    Not all Christian groups recognize the devil..for instance Church of England, in its baptism ritual renounces “the forces of evil” as does my denomination.. Our pastor has assured us that there is indeed a “force of evil” but everyone’s eyes just glaze over and the unspoken response is “whatever”.

  • An American Mick

    Ralph,
    Your convoluted twists of logic fail equally in convincing me of anything. They don’t impress me, either. You like to twist words. I don’t. Read agin what I said until you understand it. Or don’t Makes no difference to me.

  • Layla

    has anyone else noticed the links to porn sites that keep appearing linked to comments on old articles? I wonder if this is what Abu was all uptight about?

  • Jim

    This is comment spam committed by unscrupulous spambots. Our server catches 10 for every 1 that slips through, and we manually filter out the remainder on an hourly basis.

  • Ralph

    I am not surprised that I am unable to convince you of anything. It is very difficult to convince someone else of anything they don’t already believe, and you usually do not succeed. It is a shame, but my arguments seem, as you said in another context, to have been “thrown against a brick wall.”

    You didn’t like the admittedly simple way I was talking about evil, and insisted on complex distinctions of grammar and philosophy, only to dismiss them later as “convoluted.” Whether that was a purposeful trap, or the innocent result of the way in which you appear to have fashioned your own point of view into a foundation for claims of moral absolutism, I don’t know. Now either you believe (i.e. feel) that I have distorted things, though you can’t quite say how, or that’s the stance you have decided to take. In either case, you have shut off communication.

    You do not “twist words.” No, you speak very clearly and authoritatively from your own point of view, which you take uncritically as a moral absolute. You have rejected philosophy and theology as the basis for the moral absolutism you nonetheless espouse, and will not say what, if anything, that basis is.

    In my opinion, whether or not you believe in supernatural beings, religion (or myth, if you will) contains important ethical teachings. One of these, I believe, is the warning of the seductive power of evil. However, I will concede that logic has an appeal that religion does not have. Unlike religion, there is no such thing as “my” logic or “your” logic, only logic that is valid and logic that is not valid. At least potentially, logic is universal in ways that religions often are not.

    But you reject both religion and logic. I am not sure where this leaves you in terms of a system of ethics. Though you will undoubtely take this as sarcasm, I sincerely wish you luck in finding or building an ethics without recourse to the two major systems of thought on which it has traditionally been built. It will not be easy.

    Goodbye, Mick, and good luck.

  • An American Mick

    Bye, Ralph.

  • Layla

    No, Mickette, I don’t think Ralph is Moslem. My impression he is trying to synthesize a Jerry Falwell type fundamentalism with Marxism, and a few undergraduate philosophy classes thrown in for shits, grins, and giggles. If I tried to do that it would fry all my brain synapses.

  • Mickette

    Layla,

    Too funny! Yes I quickly found that any connection between his reality and mine is purely coincidential. Ralph I will always cherish the intial misconceptions I had about you.

  • Ralph

    Layla and Mickette,

    So much for trying to understand someone who thinks differently than you do, I suppose.

    It’s your choice to reject other people’s perspectives not because of what they say, but because of how you choose to label them. It will certainly make your life simpler intellectually, if that’s what you want.

    In any case, given how you have chosen to label me, there’s nothing I could say to convince you of anything, is there?

    So I guess that’s it.

  • Layla

    AmeriMick and/or Mickette,
    On the subject of decreasing sectarian violence, there is an interesting editorial about the ‘rabble’ portion of the rabblerouser equation in the Arab press. Pritam Singh argues two different types of suicide bomber: nationalistic and those who want to destroy Moslems and non-Mosems alike “in the name of a nebulous Dar Al Islam, a utopian entity that will supposedly solve all of life’s problems.”

    Singh talks mainly about Palestine, but mentions Iraq. “As long as no distinction is made between nationalist extremists and fanatical terrorists like Al Qaeda, the latter will be able to masquerade as the defenders of Muslims who are seen as “driven” to resort to suicide bombing because of military weakness.”

    An interesting argument based on intention…the legitimacy of targeting civilians is not even considered.

    Here’s the link, I expect it to only be active until 3/7/05 or less:
    http://www.jordantimes.com/wed/opinion/opinion5.htm

  • An American Mick

    That’s an good analysis, Layla. Thanks for that link.

    I was immersed in Middle East issues in the early ’80s, when Yasir Arafat was still considered one of the world’s worst international terrorists, and NOT a Nobel Peace Prize candidate.

    A lot of people think the US is ineffective in dealing with terrorism because we don’t understand it. Probably, to some extent. I’d say it’s more of a steadfast refusal to legitimize terrorism by rewarding it with results.

    I’ve always supported the creation of an independent Palestinian state (and have been accused of anti-Semitism for it here), not to stop suicide bombings, but because it’s the right thing to do for the Palestinians. But Western governments don’t want to appear that they support a solution because they fear terrorism. Therefore, terrorist acts tend to delay the solution.

    A militarily weak but passionate nationalistic group, such as the IRA or Hamas, may see suicide bombings are their own version of the atom bomb – inflicting massive, indiscriminate civilian casualties with the goal of shocking the world into dealing with them seriously. The IRA’s own analysis has been that suicide bombings, while notorious, were ineffective in furthering their goals. A sense of futility, and a growing realization that civilian deaths eroded popular support, drove them to abandon the tactic.

    In that light, it makes sense to consider that if the IRA’s goals were religious, such as the elimination of Protestants, they might have employed terrorism indefinitely. If Islamists want primarily to terrorize and destroy the West, as opposed to forcing a Palestinian solution, that’s a whole different ball game.

    The creation of a Palestinian state could end nationalism-induced terrorism, isolating Islamist terrorism, and beginning the erosion of popular support for terrorism in the Mid East. Perhaps that’s the missing key to gaining the vocal Moslem condemnation of terrorism in general. I’d agree with the analysis that the vast majority of Moslems really only want an equitable solution to the Palestinian problem, and wouldn’t support the fanatical Islamist jihad against the West. To disavow terrorism now would be to disavow the only thing they feel empowers them at all – their own little atomic bomb – before they’ve accomplished their nationalistic goal.

    It also occurs to me that the recent re-emergence of sectarianism in Iraq, which is uncharacteristic of Iraqis, could be the result of the current leadership vacuum, and feelings of vulnerability because of it.

  • Layla

    Mick, yes but the tequila was good, the mariachis were bad, and I wish I could see. Part 1 Palestine in the morning, then sectarian violence, that one’s tough. I’m thinking the Brits were there before, failed, and just pulled out, but what really happened? I have Judith Miller’s old Saddam biography that got her kicked out of Iraq for 30 years and someone loaned me Robert Fisk’s “The Great War for Civilisation”, the $40 one with 1071 pages.

    I sense power struggles among people who have lived without a political process for too long. Shia death squads, my god, like Saddam started out. Balkans, I’m planning a trip there in the fall, just starting to research, Yugoslavia fell apart, held together by Tito strong man, until he died and everything fell apart into ethnic and language groups. I take it Balkans is not the solution we are looking for right now.

  • An American Mick

    Could it be that some cultures’ priorities are just opposite ours? It seems some cultures are more stable under tyranny, and apparently couldn’t care less about individual freedoms, like freedom of speech.

    If so, aren’t we as a nation hopelessly misguided thinking democracy would be better for them? If it were, wouldn’t they choose it on their own, as we did? Sure, Saddam was a bad man. But most of the Iraqis knew peace during most of his reign, and had little to fear from him. As long as they didn’t go around criticizing him or trying to assassinate him, that is.

  • Layla

    American Mick,

    part 1: legitimizing terrorism?

    I was fortunate to attend church in Bethlehem with Yasser Arafat in the front row on 12/24/00. Western Christians saw Arafat’s presence as a sign they were safe attending church that night. I have heard the ‘isn’t he a terrorist’ thing from my dad, but I think it was because of Arafat’s terrorist credentials that he was popularly accepted. If you remember, Menachim Begin was a terrorist too—blew up the King David Hotel when it served as the headquarters for the Brits. He was careful to do it on a weekend when the only thing damaged was some milk canisters, but the Brits understood the message–he got inside their secured ‘embassy’ and pulled his punch. This helped establish the reputation of Begin’s para-military faction, which had been unknown before that.

    A terrorist joke:

    Q: What’s white and flies 300 miles over Ireland?
    A: Lord Mountbatten’s sneakers.

    I hear the Irish hate that joke. They don’t like to be reminded of a terrorist action widely regarded as a tactical and public opinion failure.

    I’m afraid everything I know about Ireland comes from reading Uris’s “Trinity” and also hearing my in-laws talk about how the children had to go out in the hedgerow away from the British to study their language. I did get the idea the conflict in Ireland was not really about religion, but about class and urban/rural differences from the industrial revolution that were never resolved. The Arabs, of course think Ireland is about religion.

    An interesting difference between the Arab and Irish situation is role of the U.S. in each. The Arabs seem to take the attitude that ‘the friend of my enemy is my enemy’. So how can the U.S. have both Palestine and Israel as allies. But the U.S. has remained close to both England and Ireland. In fact, a lot of the money raised by the Irish underground came from the American Irish. The mayor of Chicago is Irish and his father before him, but that doesn’t touch our alliance with Britain.

    Even several years ago I think there was an Arab realization that the intifada wasn’t working –they just don’t know what else to do.

    The Palestinians look to the West for solution to their situation, but America sells weapons to Israel, how are we motivated to help them. Still they say America is the only superpower and the only state that can pressure Israel and make it accept a solution.

    The problem with terrorism for Americans is we have an automatic gag reflex for it. Then after the involuntary response we start thinking about concepts like rewards. For us it is the action itself that defines the criminal. But who knows how that would change if we had, say, French soldiers with berets controlling our political institutions.

  • Layla

    American Mick,

    Part II: Palestinian State Now?

    Wouldn’t it be remarkable if the Palestinians declared a state and the U.S. was the first to recognize it?

    Continued terrorism creates more deaths, creates more anger and hatred, and creates a reason to continue terrorism as the painful losses in the family circle are remembered and politicians pick at the scab. Every day there is no state, the children are being trained for the next generation of violence. Little 5-year-old boys carry toy guns and perform on stage in uniform. This is how the children are being trained to survive in their future.

    In 1930 war swept Palestine. People locked their doors and came back in a few weeks to find everything the same. In 1948 they locked their doors again but this time they didn’t go back. When the old people are dying they ask for the key; and they die with the key in their hand. I don’t understand this connection with the land: if I move, I move. For them it seems an emotional connection.

    Young Palestinians who have never seen Palestine speak with bitterness and vehemence about something they have never seen. It is a shocking thing to hear from someone who is usually quiet and reasonable. Not all are like that, of course. One of my students went to Palestine for a family funeral and came back, not angry and blaming, but just sad about how bad the conditions were. His family left in ’67 and he has friends and future elsewhere.

    From the Israeli viewpoint, what else is there but a Palestinian state? Left as a part of Israel, how long would it take with the current birthrate to make the Palestinian situation look like South Africa? Israel will probably do it unilaterally with their wall, then use the ‘land grab’ areas as a trade for something else.

    Buy the way, have you seen the Israeli website that shows the map of the wall?

    http://www.btselem.org/English/Separation_Barrier/Index.asp

    I spent a long time looking at it in various magnifications and was shocked at how little knowledge the Palestinians have managed to impart to the world about this. They need a Carl Rove.

    Hamas was the reason Arafat couldn’t bargain and the U.S. did not consider him a partner for peace. If Hamas can be pressured into pragmatism, it may yet be a partner. Or it might start a new war that would annihilate Palestine.

    The Palestinian state needs to happen regardless, even if it decides to declare war immediately or can’t control its terrorists. Palestine already exists, even as China existed before we recognized it.

    Palestine needs economic stability. The U.S. needs an ally. There is also the question of the political stability of neighboring countries trying to solve the problems of Palestinians unable to return. If Palestine is dependent on U.S. for financial stability, as Jordan was on the Brits during the Mandate era, there will be more opportunity for the U.S. to call the tune.

  • Imran

    Sorry but something is being missed in this ‘discussion’.as i know n m reading many of the non-Muslims know about Islam only whatever is depicted to them by “the independent media”.one such misconception is that many of the christians were forced to embrace Islam.My question:’the fastest growing relegion in nearly all countries is Islam, including USA and Franc.who is forcing them to convert?which muslim army recently went to europe?why so many people want to become ‘terrorists’?if Islam suppresses women’s rights, why more women are embracing Islam ?’
    There is a reality my freinds that is being hidden very carefully by your ‘free media’.there is a truth every individual looks for but many of us are consistently being mislead.moreover, there are blacksheep in every community .and the criteria to judge a relegion is through its authentic books not by the Followers .there is an advice:Islamic Research Foundation is a known organisation trying to clear many such misconceptions .its president Dr. Zakir Naik is yet unbeated in debate by many renown scholars of diverse relegions,including Dr. William Campbel of christianity.
    Please consider,as an advice from a freind.www.irf.net is site!may you find the truth

  • Layla

    American Mick,

    Part Last: Iraq–The Unanswerable Questions

    Such short questions, and such long responses; but I don’t know how to edit this any further. It’s fun to talk to someone who’s actually interested in this.

    “It also occurs to me that the recent re-emergence of sectarianism in Iraq, which is uncharacteristic of Iraqis, could be the result of the current leadership vacuum, and feelings of vulnerability because of it”.

    Okay, I read the Time article, and the tribal thing is totally within my experience. If somebody needs something, say someone strays across the border and gets in a foreign jail, or someone loses a passport, which is a jailable offense, they need someone in the family to get them out of it. So they go to the person with Wasta in their family, a senator or something, and the right political strings are pulled. If you tell a Jordanian someone’s family name, they can tell you what city that person is from and whether they are Christian or Muslim.

    In Jordan King Abdullah has been trying to introduce political parties, besides the Islamic ones, that is. In Jordan votes are always cast by tribal affiliation; the idea of voting for a political philosophy is unknown. Abdullah is an incredibly intelligent and politically savvy guy. I hope it works.

    The senate is appointed by the king and is the most liberal, for example more likely to oppose honor killings. The lower house is elected; they had to fasten the ashtrays to the desks to keep them from throwing ashtrays at each other. In one argument a rep bit off the ear of another rep and put him in the hospital. Another guy said they couldn’t have a female legislator because everyone would be too busy staring at her chest to get any work done. The paper printed the remark on several occasions, but they didn’t say who made the statement.

    “Could it be that some cultures’ priorities are just opposite ours? It seems some cultures are more stable under tyranny, and apparently couldn’t care less about individual freedoms, like freedom of speech.”

    We manage to have free speech and elections too without deaths. Have you noticed how every time there is an election in a foreign country, they also announce the death toll? It’s more noticeable when you live abroad and have better access to international news.

    I heard that up in the hills the tribal mayoral elections are so emotional people are killed over them. I once dated a Lebanese consul who told me how important stability was for Lebanon, how the government strictly assigns positions for each ethnic and religious group to maintain political balance. If you read Judith Miller’s “God has Ninety-Nine Names” it would also seem that popular elections automatically mean the election of Islamists, and the way to ensure freedom is to prevent elections. Then there’s the press that demonizes America and Jews to take scrutiny off their own government’s actions…

    I think they want what the west has to offer, but the bubblegum culture stuff like music, Hollywood, sexual freedom, and not democracy, rule of law, individual rights, …

    “If so, aren’t we as a nation hopelessly misguided thinking democracy would be better for them? If it were, wouldn’t they choose it on their own, as we did?”

    It’s a value judgment; what do you believe in? It’s probably an improvement over ‘he’s an SOB, but he’s our SOB’. Eventually the world sees when we support oppression to get allies and resents it. I think ‘rights’ are more important, many times those rights are protected by the extended family and tribal structure rather than by law, and so are invisible to the western eye.

    One thing that strikes me forcibly—we don’t choose democracy, we learn it from childhood. While I was teaching one English lesson on colours, I suddenly got a wild hair and asked my 7th graders to vote for their favourite color. THEY DIDN’T KNOW HOW TO VOTE. When I was in 7th grade, we knew how to nominate candidates, tear up notebook paper for secret ballots, and get someone we trusted to tally the votes on the blackboard. We participated in an endless number of boring elections for meaningless offices and we could organize an election in any classroom or extracurricular organization hands down. No wonder Americans don’t die in elections. We’re bored with it. My class of 58 students had 35 votes for the colour orange, 30 for pink, 25 for red, 25 for yellow, 15 for blue, you get the idea, somebody voted twice.

    “Sure, Saddam was a bad man. But most of the Iraqis knew peace during most of his reign, and had little to fear from him. As long as they didn’t go around criticizing him or trying to assassinate him, that is.”

    Baghdad has been described to me as an economic engine for the entire region. Iraq could buy everything the rest of the region could manufacture. Bush Senior disrupted the region’s economy with the sanctions and flyovers (no mention of the economically debilitating 10 year war with Iran), and it was thought that Bush’s son should be elected to finish what his father started and bring back economic well-being.

    Saddam’s sons were not benign. Kusai in particular was known for picking up women at random, raping them, and having them killed later. If Saddam was tolerable, Uday and Kusai would not have been. The Iraqis I knew had fled Iraq, so of course they were afraid, but I also heard about poverty and the devaluation of the currency. Some refugees left when someone in their family had been killed or disappeared.

    Sadam also tried to ‘Arabize’ certain towns in Kurdish areas by financial incentives for Arab populations to move there, not quite ethnic cleansing, but forcing other populations out, same as Israelis are accused of with Palestinians. I talked to Kurds who witnessed the use of chemical weapons against civilians.

    We are who we are. I used to believe in respect for other cultures until my friends and I witnessed children being beaten with sticks and rubber hoses in 35 different institutional settings. There is a mental gag reflex, like with terrorism. If we say ‘I respect your culture but…’ it weakens the argument we are making and makes us more vulnerable to political and personal damage. But if we say ‘I don’t like it when that child gets hit’ then the child will not get hit, at least not while we are looking.

    Perhaps Arabs have lived with violence so long they have become desensitized, and if it is not too patronizing and arrogant, it is up to us to, as one poster here said, “keep the child from running out into the street”.

  • Raoul

    So people in other cultures are little children, and America needs to be their Daddy and Mommy and make sure they don’t “run out into the street?” Other cultures are not little children for you to control! You do not respect other cultures. You say so yourself. That is why you treat them like little children. You act like bad parents who demand respect but do not respect their own children. That is why you pay money and sell weapons to dictators and kings and generals to control people from other cultures like parents control little children. Then you shake your finger at them saying naughty little boys and girls, you should be democratic! But you never stop the money to the kings and dictators. You think other cultures are little children and you can spank them whenever you want but they should never, ever spank you back. Then you ask, why do people hate us?

  • An American Mick

    Imran,
    Thank you for that reference. I’ll read it through. There seems to be a lot of good information there. However, please don’t make the erroneous assumption that there is a knowledge vacuum here regarding Islam. There’s not.

    On the subject of terrorism, the site only says that there are two perspectives on the same thing: one that the perpetrators are terrorists, and the other that they are ‘patriots’.

    One quick question: Are Osama bin Laden and the people who carried out the World Trade Center attacks, the London subway bombings, and the Bali nightclub bombings ‘terrorists’ or ‘patriots’?

  • An American Mick

    Layla,
    I’m absorbing your posts. I’ll reply tomorrow. You wrote a lot.

  • Layla

    Imran,

    Thank you for showing us this website. I like the explanations about the Islamic traditions.

    Many Islamic websites are insulting to Christians. They say things like “Christians have three gods,” which I find very disrespectful. I thought your website was respectful to Christians. I hope it helps you grow closer to God.

    I would also like to know why so many Moslems become terrorists.

    American Mick,

    I know. I edited out half of it before posting, but there it is. Sometimes I read a 300 page book and find one detail that makes everything else fit.

    I finished looking at Fisk’s just-published “The Great War for Civilization” and Miller and Mylroie’s 1990 “Saddam Hussein and the Crisis in the Gulf.” Nothing really useful for this discussion. Fisk does refer to “anti-British nationalism” in 1919 and both Fisk and Miller/Mylroie describe Saddam’s Stalinesque purges and confessions obtained under torture in detail. Not good bedtime reading.

  • An American Mick

    Raoul,
    I have to agree with you, and I think a lot of other Americans agree with you too. The US government has no business engineering the governments of other sovereign nations. It’s one thing to go to the aid of a nation that has been invaded by another; it’s quite another to invade a sovereign nation for any of the ‘reasons’ we’ve been given for the invasion of Iraq. This is not the will of the American people. Americans who support the invasion of Iraq do so, I think, because they erroneously equate Saddam Hussein with international terrorism and the World Trade Center attacks. George Bush made it look like that, and in post-9/11 America, a lot of people didn’t question him.

    Attacking the American people, unfortunately, tends to make them support a militaristic President like Bush. Conducting open and frank discussions and arguments with American people has the opposite effect. It makes them think. When we think openly about things, Presidents like Bush lose support.

  • Layla

    Raoul,

    I did not support the action in Iraq and I don’t want to give anyone the impression that I did. I had hoped for incremental changes and I do not believe America has the right to intervene in another country like that. But we can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube. We can’t change the past, we can only protect the future.

    Iraq was once the economic engine of the Middle East, until it started attacking its neighbors and destroying its own economy with a 10-year war with Iran. Saddam used hatred against Jews to justify mass killings, then went on to purge countless potential political opponents after obtaining confessions under torture that they were “working for Israel and the U.S.”

    Many Middle Eastern leaders have demonized America to distract their people from local problems. But the ordinary people don’t understand it is just a tactic to stay in power. Remember the photo of the blackboard of the imam convicted of the Bali bombings? A lot of writing in another language, then in English the words ‘America’ and ‘Israel’. These leaders set America up as the all-powerful mommy and daddy that has to be destroyed instead of, say, actually GOVERNING their countries.

    The attitude of the British after the disintegration of the Ottoman empire was to keep a ‘strong hold’ on Mesopotamia. They believed the inhabitants “can’t conceive an Independent Arab government.” The U.S. is basically isolationist and only wants allies in this region. Until someone can think of a better approach, or until Middle Eastern govenments decide to get a life, I’m willing to go along with “play nice now” and “don’t hit mommy and daddy.”

  • Mario

    Imran wrote: “Please consider,as an advice from a freind.www.irf.net is site!may you find the truth”.

    Now, I happen to know that site very well. I have it bookmarked on my Mac. In my humble view, it’s full of irrational statements which are often rather worse than just intellectual and historical rubbish. Some of them appear to be open invitations to coercion and violence against those who do not share the rather crude belief system of their authors. Have a look, for instance, at an article currently published there by the title: “The Media Attacks the Final Prophet”. Read it all, including paragraph 7 “Those who attempt to harm the Prophets are promised with Allah’s revenge”. The principles exposed here – including an appeal to the “secular arm” – appear to be basically the same as those that have guided for centuries the so-called Holy Inquisition of the Christian Catholic Church. Someone should explain Imran how and why the Europeans – during the latest three centuries – have won their liberty against precisely such medieval barbarism, at the price of much blood and suffering. We have met with it already, Imran. It’s no news to us. And, if it comes against us once more, we know what to do.

    Finally, I must hasten to add that the obscurantist and intrinsically violent bigotry promoted by Imran and those whom he admires are luckily and most certainly *not* the whole of modern Islam. There are saner Islamic scholars and web sites around. Try for instance Google with “ijtihad” (which appears to be the Arabic for reason applied to religious matters).

  • Layla

    Mario,

    I don’t see it.

    I’m looking at biography of Zakir Naik then scroll all the way down to books, then #4 ‘Islam and terrorism’
    http://www.irf.net/irf/drzakirnaik/index.htm
    The file doesn’t open for me.

    I remember listening to a speech by Louis Farrakan. He started out very reasonably with things everybody could agree about…justice, economic development in African-American neighborhoods…then slowly worked up to hate speech.

    From last week’s sermon about Ruwanda “It only takes one influential person to whip up a crowd into madness.”

  • Mario

    Layla, the article I mentioned is now at

    http://www.islamhouse.com/en/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=170

    I thought I had found it in the irf site, but I am now unable to re-trace it that way. Maybe I’ve messed up things. Sorry.

  • Layla

    Mario,

    Thanks for the link. It’s a Saudi website with several articles by different authors; the link is to the most virulent one.

    Of particular interest is point #7 “Those who attempt to harm the Prophets are promised with Allah’s revenge” which includes the statements:

    “Those who harm Allah’s Messenger will deserve a severe punishment.”
    “when Muslims are not capable of punishing those who ridicule and harm Allah’s Messenger SAAW, Allah, the Almighty Himself will take care of that”
    “if a person wages war against Allah’s Prophets PBUT, his punishment is much too strict”
    “previous nations were destroyed when they hurt their prophets”

    They seem to start with revenge and work backward, looking for an excuse for vigilatism. It is implied that prophet has somehow been harmed, but that isn’t examined too carefully. The Prophet was dead before and he’s still dead.

    The following is pasted from a different website of the same Zakir Naik guy in India:

    I suggest that you inform as many people as possible about http://www.drzakirnaik.com . Doing this you can Insha’ALLAH share the rewards in the Hereafter for trying to spread Islam. Each person should try to recommend atleast 10 more people to visit http://www.drzakirnaik.com, these in turn can recommend 10 more and in this way the number of users utilizing the free resources here and linked resources can increase quickly and significantly 10, 100, 1000 ,10000… One Dr. Zakir Naik can make a difference by the Permission and Help of ALLAH Almighty. Imagine what will happen if 1000’s of Muslims learn his skills and become Dr. Zakir Naiks. Actually Dawah is your duty just remember Surah Al Asr (4 necessary requirements for saving yourself from destruction) and also know that its either Dawah or destruction.

    The salient portion of the above is “share the rewards in the Hereafter”. Imran posted his message to get rewards in Heaven and not because of a burning desire for dialogue. Kinda reminds me of the messages that used to be printed on those bottles of peppermint soap.

  • Muhammad Abd Allah al-Sheikh

    Dear Sir / Madam,
    You are doing good job. Draw a new cartoon of Mosque with Minaret as Penis of Muhammad and Dooms as Breast of his multiple wives. All evil of Muhammad which you show in cartoon is a real life of wicked Muhammad the dead in sin, which Mohammedans fear to hear or see. But please highlight the evil life of wicked Muhammad to us in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for we do the same evil what you are showing in cartoons of our wicked Muhammad. I am ashamed of being part of this system in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia – Mr. Muhammad Abd Allah Al-Sheikh from Mecca al-Makarma

  • Layla

    Muhammed Abdullah al-Sheik,

    Are you more ashamed of Osama bin Laden and the people who carried out the World Trade Center attacks, the London subway bombings, or the Bali nightclub bombings?

    Are these people ‘terrorists’ or ‘patriots’?

    The Americans who write here speak like akhi, but you speak mish quais. I think you are very mish quais.

  • Layla

    Several items from the Arab world:

    1) Hostage Tom Fox of Clear Brook confirmed dead. Fox, a Quaker, was a member of Christian Peacemaker Teams. Their statement: “We mourn the loss of Tom Fox, who combined a lightness of spirit, a firm opposition to all oppression, and the recognition of God in everyone. In response to Tom’s passing, we ask that everyone set aside inclinations to vilify or demonize others, no matter what they have done.”

    2) Today I received by snailmail excerpts of a speech 2/17/06 by Brigitte Gabriel at the Intelligence Summit in DC.
    “America cannot effectively defend itself in this war unless and until the American people understand the nature of the enemy that we face. Even after 9/11 there are those who say that we must “engage” our terrorist enemies, that we must “address their grievances”. Their grievance is our freedom of religion. Their grievance is our freedom of speech. Their grievance is our democratic process where the rule of law comes from the voices of many not that of just one prophet. It is the respect we instill in our children towards all religions. It is the equality we grant each other as human beings sharing a planet and striving to make the world a better place for all humanity. Their grievance is the kindness and respect a man shows a woman, the justice we practice as equals under the law, and the mercy we grant our enemy. Their grievance cannot be answered by an apology for who or what we are.”

    Excerpts from speech:

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21364
    Some stirring prose, but what’s this about “the nature of the enemy?” Gabriel’s website shows her organization is called “American Congress for Truth” Holy jihad, Batman, the words ‘American’ and ‘Truth’ all in the name of one three-word organization? Their vision? “protecting the United States and its only democratic ally in the Middle East the State of Israel.” In case anybody is thinking of signing their petition against ‘Islamic totalitarianism’, see #1 above.

    http://americancongressfortruth.com/aboutus.html

    3) “Islam’s Fanatical 1%”, by Muhammad Habash “A recent study published in Damascus by the Center of Islamic Studies pointed out that conservatives make up about 80% of the population of the Middle East’s Islamic societies. Reformers make up most of the other 20%. Radicals can count on support from no more than 1% of the population. In my view, these rough proportions have been stable throughout ten centuries of Islamic history, with slight differences.”
    About democracy: “Thus, conservatives reject democracy, because it subjects the will of God to popular opinion. For them, the ultimate authority within a society is God’s revelation to the people…. Finally, reformists see no contradiction between democracy and Islamic teaching, though democracy does conflict with centuries of tradition governing how Muslims actually have been ruled.”

    About other religions: “However, conservatives do not support the use of violence against non-Muslims. On the contrary, the jurisprudential traditions of Islamic conservatism obligate Muslims to be just in their treatment of non-Muslims. Thus, conservatives and reformists agree that the rights of others should be observed and preserved.”

    http://www.project-syndicate.org/contributor/850

    4) Rami G. Khouri’s “The unspoken Israeli-Palestinian agreement”: “The unarticulated but vital operative core of this silent agreement is that both sides stop shooting and killing each other for some years, Israel steadily vacates more land, and the Palestinians enjoy more substantial sovereign rights and proceed more diligently than before with their nation-building priorities…. Sharon’s long-term interim agreement and Hamas’ long-term truce sound intriguingly similar. In the best ways of the Orient, they are being implemented without being formally articulated or agreed….. Wink. Nod. Pass the ploughshare.”

    http://www.jordantimes.com/fri/opinion/opinion2.htm
    should be good until 3/17

  • James

    Jim is willing to insult Buddhists as much as Muslims…..
    take a look at this URL and see how it goes for a Buddhist student

    http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2006/03/21/ram-bomjon-video/

  • Jim

    James,

    As I’ve already said when you cut and pasted this unoriginal and unsubstantial comment elsewhere:

    No shit, Sherlock.

    When I find religious ideas or behaviors worthy of criticism, I criticize them.

    You “caught me.” No, actually, you didn’t catch me at all. I’ve been open about this for years. So ladeeda: what’s your point? That questioning, criticizing, lampooning a religion is some kind of offense? What kind of off-kilter notion is that? It certainly isn’t a freedom-loving notion.

    Why do you think an idea or behavior should be above criticism, just because it is labeled “religious”?

    And who appointed you grand high poohbah to decide it’s inappropriate for people to say things because you don’t like them?

  • Joe Osmosis

    Did you know that Mohammed started the Muslim faith from a heresy of the Catholic church? Check it out.
    Study your history.
    The Crusades were primarily a conflict to run off the Muslims agressors out of Europe. The Muslims nearly took over
    all of Europe by force. These are the facts. CHECK IT OUT.

  • Alan

    The BBC News feed to NPR is today reporting an end to the boycott of Danish company Arla.

    A spokesman from Arla expects Arla products to be back on supermarket shelves later in the week. One of the Danish Imams who went to Gaza and Egypt (didn’t catch the name) denied that bringing the cartoons to the Middle East had anything to do with the riots. A key factor in ending the boycott was Arla’s purchase of multiple advertisements in Arab papers and the Arab recognition that Arla foods is a separate entity from the newspaper that published the cartoons.

    Sorry I can’t provide a link: BBC doesn’t even have it on their site, and no one else seems to be reporting it.

  • dw

    I noticed a month ago somebody wrote that persians no longer exist like the romans ..etc.well im here to tell you iran was the heart of persia 52%of irans population is persian farsi is the main persian dialect dari persian is also spoken widely in afghanistan ,theres still zoroastrians the old persian religion prior to the islamic conquest in these 2 countries as well. thought i would clear that up.

  • Alan