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Loren Davis Ministries and the Obama Slurs

If you’re at all involved in political discussions about the 2008 presidential candidates, the chances are that you’ve run into some comments about Celeste and Loren Davis, and the shocking revelations they are supposed to have about Barack Obama.

Among their allegations:
- Barack Obama is secretly a Muslim
- Barack Obama is part of a secret conspiracy to complete the agenda of the September 11 attacks
- Barack Obama and his family in Kenya are a socialist political powerhouse behind the recent violence there

Celeste Davis and Loren Davis are claimed to be plain, ordinary Christian missionaries who have gone to Africa, and have learned the sinister truth about Barack Obama by talking to people there. Who are these people, really?

Celeste and Loren Davis are the leaders of Loren Davis Ministries, which you’ll see is by no means a simple mainstream Christian organization, if you examine even it briefly.

Loren Davis the Christian Missionary Who Attacked ObamaLet me introduce you to some of the assertions, not directly referring to Barack Obama, made by Loren Davis Ministries:

———-

  • Public education is a satanic conspiracy… that involved pretty much everyone other than those people who agree with Loren Davis.

    “Satan is a deceiver. He comes with many different masks: atheism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Communism, public educational institutions, Hollywood and the New Age to name just a few.”

  • Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are part of an anti-Christian conspiracy led from within Christianity by preacher Rick Warren.

    “THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT HILLARY CLINTON AND BARAK OBAMA SPOKE AT RICK WARREN’S SADDLE BACK CHURCH. Why? What does having the politicians speaking at his church have anything to do with bringing people to Christ and faith in the Bible?… Hillary Clinton’s book, “It takes a Village to Raise a Child”, is a socialistic concept. Her national health plan is SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. Is Rick Warren’s promotion of these politicians just coincidental, or indicative of their common socialistic agenda? Rick Warren himself baptized a homosexual activist. This is defying the Bible.”

  • Even most people who call themselves Christians are part of a secret satanic plot to destroy Jesus when he returns to Earth.

    “The antichrist is coming. The paganized church is positioning itself to survive and thrive under the Antichrist’s regime. “

  • The National Football League is part of a conspiracy to promote worship of Satan.

    “An interesting thing happened during the American Super Bowl which determines the NFL Football Champion, February, 2007. The half-time entertainer had a big cloth of some kind around the stage on which he was performing. There was an appendage hanging down from his guitar. This created a silhouette that LOOKED LIKE SATAN with a forked tail, and below him showed the silhouettes of people with their hands lifted as if they were WORSHIPPING SATAN.”
    ———-

    The Loren Davis Ministries web site is full of this kind of nonsense.

    Some supporters of John McCain and Hillary Clinton who are worried about the popularity of Barack Obama are beginning to cite the claims Celeste and Loren Davis make about Barack Obama. I’ve got a piece of friendly advice to them: Don’t be tempted by the easy sensationalism of the Loren Davis slurs. It isn’t going to do McCain or Clinton any good to have their campaigns associated with the wacky extremist conspiracy theories about Satan promoted by Loren Davis.

    Besides – it’s probably only a matter of time before Loren Davis declares that John McCain’s use of a 5-pointed Star of Sirius in his campaign material proves that he is a secret servant of Satan. As for Hillary Clinton, Loren Davis has already implied that she is part of a socialist conspiracy to serve Satan by destroying true Christianity.

  • UPDATE: Loren Davis Ministries has responded to this article by attempting to erase evidence of his radical beliefs. The group has begun deleting web pages from its site that reveal the bizarre belief of Loren Davis about widespread satanic conspiracies. If you want to see a sample of the evidence that Loren Davis has tried to eliminate, check out this PDF document of a web page we have preserved here at Irregular Times.

    Don’t believe that it’s genuine? Go use Archive.org to search for http://www.lorendavis.com/news_articles_sirius.html . The page will come right up. Or, go to Google and search for “loren davis” sirius star and click on the “cached” link right next to the “Newsletter–Loren Davis Ministries” result.

    It’s proof – Loren Davis is a disreputable conspiracy theorist, and he knows it. Why else would he try to cover up this information?

    64 comments to Loren Davis Ministries and the Obama Slurs

    • The underfunding of our school system is taking it’s toll.
      Those tiny minds that can not attack the message will attack the messenger.
      What else can mindless followers do ?

      (Pssst. I’m a spammer who left messages like this all over the web today.)

    • Um, maybe they’ll leave vague comments on blogs?

      Do you think that a person who accuses the NFL of trying to promote satanism during the Super Bowl has credibility?

    • Jim

      People who cite Loren Davis’ accusations without consideration of the sourcing behind them are stained with Davis’ ooze.

    • AT

      You must admit that Christians sure have the most vivid imaginations.

    • irregularwife

      I am now of the opinion that whackadoodle “religious” fronts like this one get money from people who just want to be left ALONE.

      “Here’s five bucks, Loren, now you and your big-haired wife go play now, okay?”

    • Tom

      Geez, and we haven’t even gotten to “swift-boat” season yet!

    • I LOVE the word ‘WHACKADOODLE’ That is a super cool word and has just become one of my very favorites. The Christians are huge- er (is that a word ? ) fanatics than the fanatics are, that’s for sure. It just gets worse. Thank God I’m an Athiest !

    • PythonNut

      Yeah, I’m glad there are no fanatical people who also claim to be atheists, like Mao Zadong and Joseph Stalin. It would give atheistism a bad name since these two in no way represent true atheism.

    • Karl Velitch

      I looks like your own prejudices are showing.

    • A prejudice against people who think that elementary schools and football leagues are satanic plots? Oh, yes, I admit to that prejudice.

    • To be honest, Iroquois, I have no idea if we did. We haven’t covered every ping-pong in this campaign, and those dealing with health care minutae in particular make my mind foggy.

      Whatever we did or didn’t write on the subject, I hope we can agree that the subject of health care reform is not on the order, in terms of memorability, of a wacky preacher who claims that Barack Obama is a secret agent of Al Quaeda, that Hillary Clinton is a socialist satanist, that Wal-Mart checkout scanners are designed to read the Mark of the Beast, and that Texas highway signs are made to help show people the way to demonic frolics.

    • No, I do not have an adequate health care plan. I’m self-employed.

      I don’t think it’s boring. However, my mind does fog over when I try to comprehend the differences between Obama’s plan and Clinton’s plan.

      However important health care is as an issue, and even though I have written about it in relation to this campaign, yes, I find it much more interesting right now to explore Loren Davis.

      It’s not just because Loren Davis is a grade A rich-in-proteins kook. It’s also because Loren Davis has not been written about by the mainstream news media, or by most bloggers either. He spews out garbage, and it’s spread around the blogosphere by eager Republicans, without the details of the source being revealed…

      …until now.

    • Sam

      Obama is no good for America PERIOD. We do not know enough about him, and what we do know is not good.

      If Larry Sinclair is able to prove his charges against Barack Obama, you would think that his campaign for POTUS would be over. But I’m beginning to believe that Obama supporters do not care what or who Obama really is. All they care about is his color, and it doesn’t matter who Obama associates with, or surrounds himself with, or even what his motives are.

    • Wait a minute, Sam. If you think we do not know enough about Barack Obama, then how come you can say that “Obama is no good for America PERIOD”?

      A bit of a contradiction there, Sam.

    • Truly

      LoThe ones against this Loren guy are the Obama swooners. You got the hots for him too? I don’t think he(Obama) is all that cute but each to his own. There is absolutly no other reason to vote for him.
      A person can be judged partly by who their enemies are so you make his point sure.
      I

    • freespeaker

      I think the difference between people that
      want truth and those who cover it up is that those who cover truth always attack the messenger. Those who are willing to look at the truth try to honestly find out the truth instead of attacking those telling it. If a bum on the streets tells me some “facts” about something I am not just going to mock him for being a bum but I will look up what he is saying. Why? because truth still matters. So my question is.. How do you know the facts here are wrong? Did you try to find out before you shoot the messenger?

    • Truly and freespeaker, I am not “shooting the messenger”. I haven’t shot anyone. I’ve criticized Loren Davis, and exposed the truth of his message.

      I find it truly ironic that you regard telling people about the messages that Loren Davis has written is “shooting the messenger’.

      Loren Davis thinks that public schools are Satan’s work.

      Loren Davis thinks that the NFL is part of a plot to convert people to Devil worship.

      Loren Davis has said that the American flag is a symbol for Satan as well – an emblem of pure evil.

      Loren Davis has tried to cover up these extremist statements to avoid embarrassment, but I have salvaged the original documents and am spreading the full message of Loren Davis.

      How is that shooting the messenger?

      Do you agree with Loren Davis that the American flag is a symbol of Satan, or do you disagree with Loren Davis about the flag?

      If you disagree with Loren Davis about the flag, why do you give any credence to his weird anti-Obama screeds?

    • I guess that I am somewhat prejudiced. I didn’t think I was before but now I must be. I deduced myself to believing that Obama is a Muslim due to the things I hear: such as, If he is elected he will swear his oath on the Koran, and yes I am a victim of heresay. I am not a witness to that fact. Do you think it’s true. It appears he doesn’t want to honor the flag from what I have read. He offers not to stand when the star spangled banner is played. Once again I am not a witness to any of this. If I go to a church that preaches like what I have watched on TV by his preacher for 20 years, do you think that some of that “knowledge” is not going to rub off on me? If I have not been swayed by what I hear and study for 20 years I don’t think I would be human. I would not be foolish to think that I could run the country but I think idt is so messed up now, that no one can pull us out, especially with a Congress that won’t do anything. W.C.

    • Wayne, have you not read what has been reported here?

      The following document is from the Loren Davis Ministries web site:

      http://irregulartimes.com/lorendavisstarcrazy.pdf

      It’s Loren Davis’s own words. These show that it is Obama’s critics like Loren Davis, not Obama himself, who attack the American flag.

      Celeste and Loren Davis write that the American flag is a symbol of evil. Why don’t you turn your anger against them and ask for an explanation from them?

    • Jim

      Wayne, cite me one place in which Barack Obama actually says that he will swear his oath on the Koran.

      Then tell me what kind of person told you that Barack Obama will swear his oath on the Koran.

      You can’t do the first, and the sort of person who tells you the second is either ignorant or malicious.

      If you choose to spread such counterfactual claims, you are either willfully spreading your ignorance or are an example of the purposefully counterfactual maliciousness that poisons our civic politics.

      “I hear it” is no excuse to spread it unless you have evidence, which you don’t, because it’s untrue.

      Stop poisoning this country.

    • Dinar

      Sounds like you live in an ignorant, Archie Bunker kind of neighborhood and need to extend your social circle, Iroquois.

    • tinker

      I think Loren’s got some valid points.

      Public Schools:

      Take a closer look at public school system — teachers are the working poor, they’re powerless in the classroom, they’re constantly being threatened with lawsuits when they do try to exert some authority, administrations do not back them up — school boards to do back up administrations — kids are not learning they are waring, they are having sex there, they physically threaten teachers (and sometimes actually assault them), many teachers are having nervous breakdowns – many stress issues and are leaving the field as quickly as they enter.

      Barak Hussein Obama:
      Yeah, I think he’s absolutely Islamic fascist trained and a Muslim.
      I think we’re in a world of hurt should he actually live long enough to take his oath on the Koran.

      Hiliary Clinton:
      Yeah, I think she’s absolutely a socialist and will do everything in her power to ensure America enters into total socialism (or a form of socialism) should she live long enough to be sworn in on whatever “book” she chooses. Somehow, I don’t think it’ll be a Christian bible either.

      Does this mean – they are Satin’s puppets? Any time anyone in powerful posts entrusted with protecting a nation and its people who deliberately deceive people for their personal and ulterior motives is doing evil work. Any time such a person deliberately harms a nation’s defense resources is doing evil work. Any time such a person deliberately sells-out a nations people and its resources – is doing evil.

      I believe the world is at war. This is a war like no other: it is about the globalization of Islamic fascism. It’s being fought on many fronts and in many countries. America is only beginning to wake up and realize that we’re not some safe and distant nation that cannot be affected or even destroyed. Especially should an Islamic terrorist cell enter into the White House as our nation’s president. We can surely kiss democracy as we know it g’bye.

      Do I think Obama is a Muslim? Absolutely. And I’m not basing my thoughts on anything the Davis Ministries have published on a website. There’s plenty of factual data tying Obama to terrorists connections. This isn’t a recent development – it’s been long in the making.

    • Jim

      You say you’ve plenty of factual data? All right then, show me your factual data that Barack Obama is a Muslim. Show it to me. Now.

      If you can’t, then you’re an ignorant puppet or an instrument of malice.

    • juniper

      Tinker’s logic: teachers are the working poor, and therefore it makes sense for Loren Davis to say that public schools are in league with Satan.

      oooookay.

    • Deb

      I think it will be very interesting to come back in @ 4 years and see what the comments are then, for those of you that are still here in your “one world government”. My guess? MOst of you that are preaching against the preacherS now will be the biggest ‘whiners’ against your president and the government that will be running the country then. You think it’s bad now~~~Even hard headed bulls can see a red flag when it’s waved before their eyes! ( Bless you Tinker! I know this won’t be popular either!)

    • So, then, Deb, you agree with Loren Davis that the National Football League is joined with public education in a conspiracy to help Satan establish this One World Government?

      Yes, you’re right. I just don’t see that “red flag”.

    • Deb

      Sorry. I don’t agree with All he says. I don’t believe any of us agree with any one person 100% or you wouldn’t have a mind of your own. He has his opinion on WHO will establish it… I have mine. But I have NO doubt that it will happen. It wasn’t hard to pick up on the things he is way out in left field on (such as the flag). Thanks for pointing that out. But I do agree. . .our school systems and this generation realllly need help! Who would have ever thought America’s schools would have to have guards on duty for the protection & safety of our children in order for them to get an education?! Very sad.

    • Seems we don’t need to worry about world hunger, with so any nuts around

    • GrannaBanana

      I stumbled onto your site in the process of checking out these claims. I finally got a simple statement on snopes.com. The site says that there is nothing to support these claims. Celeste Davis is the one who made these particular claims regarding Obama. When asked about her sources or documentation, she said that these things are “common knowlegde” in Kenya. That is all I needed to hear; the claims are not supported by any data. It seems that you feel compelled to “expose” the Davises, especially now that they have had the audacity to attack Obama. So now I know YOUR agenda, and I won’t be back.

    • Jim

      Yeah, what a rotten agenda it is: exposing people who spread innuendo against someone with no factual basis! I mean, how awful is that? 8-|

    • You know, has anyone ever stopped to think that MAYBE the people at SNOPES are no less biased than everyone else?

      The Snopes.com people have declared themselves the source of what’s true and what’s not, and people just go and check Snopes, as if they’re always right about what’s true.

      Checking Snopes.com, and then calling it a day, just trusting whatever they said, is a new way of being intellectually lazy.

    • BoT

      I just got this Loren thing mass-emailed to me. Usually the fact that I got some crap mass-emailed to me is more than enough reason to completely discount it, but I got it from someone whom I normally respect enough not to do such a thing, so I had to check it out. Surprise! It’s crap. But it does serve to make me aware that the Repub Fear Machine is cranked to eleven already; that was a nice heads-up.

    • Thanks for the comment, BoT. I think we can expect the Republican Fear Machine to get cranked up to 19 at least, by year’s end.

    • Franck Metellus

      A friend of mine sent me a copy of the Loren and Celest Davis attack on Obama. Here is my response to him.

      Ken, Ken, Ken,

      Where do you keep coming up with these bullshit emails? I hope you do not give something like this any credence. First of all, Just because you read something, does not mean that it is true. It does not mean that it is not true either. But before you take it as fact, it must be researched. Otherwise it is gossip and innuendo. Neither of which I give any credence to. If I make a decision it will be made based on RELIABLE FACTS AND DATA NOT HEARSAY, GOSSIP OR INUENDO. Do yourself a favor and do not pass on stuff like this because there is no substance to it. Check it out first. I would also encourage you to ask the person or persons who are sending you this junk to stop sending this junk out. It is not funny and it is not a joke. There are too many ignorant weak minded people who will jump on the band wagon just because they see something in print, when in reality there is no substance to it and is just meant to tear down a candidate who is running for office. Actually, I personally question the motives of people who send trash like this out. If they had any REAL issues with Obama based on his record or platform, then I am more than willing to listen to them, but this trash is just disgusting, divisive and does the Country no good.

      Let’s analyze the BS email you sent me.

      They know Obama’s family in Kenya and the family is responsible for the presidential election chaos in Kenya.

      Just because they make the statement that they know the family does not make it true. Even if they did and what they say is true, what does that have to do with Barack Obama? This clearly is an attempt to smear Senator Obama with GUILT BY ASSOCIATION. I explained this to you last time that this is a LOGICAL FALLACY. When someone uses a logical fallacy the conclusion drawn is FALSE because they are using a faulty premise.

      Let’s look at the facts from RELIABLE Sources. Below are quotes from CBS News and Wikipedia

      http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/01/08/politics/horserace/entry3687705.shtml

      The Associated Press reports that Obama has spoken to Kenyan opposition leader Raila Odinga to “express grave concerns over the election’s outcome,” according to Odinga’s spokesperson, who added that the Democratic hopeful also plans to call Kenyan president Mwai Kibaki.

      Obama, who has discussed the situation with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, has also recorded a message urging an end to the violence for broadcast on Voice of America radio.

      Odinga and Kibaki are engaged in an electoral standoff that has sparked riots and inflamed tribal rivalries across a country seen as a strong U.S. ally and a rare example of a stable democracy in Africa. Violence

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raila_Odinga

      Raila Amolo Odinga (born January 7, 1945) is Kenyan politician, currently serving as the Prime Minister of Kenya under President Mwai Kibaki in a temporary coalition government. He has served as a Member of Parliament for Langata since 1992, was Minister of Energy from 2001 to 2002, and was Minister of Roads, Public Works and Housing from 2003 to 2005. He was the main opposition candidate in the disputed 2007 presidential election. Following a post-electoral crisis that resulted in the deaths of 1,500 people and the displacement of 600,000 more, Odinga took office as Prime Minister, at the head of a national unity government, in April 2008.

      Odinga claims to be a cousin of American Senator and presidential candidate Barack Obama through the latter’s father, Barack Obama Sr., who Odinga claims was his maternal uncle.[26] This claim has not been corroborated, but Obama Sr. did come from the same Luo tribe as Odinga.[26]

      Now here is a direct quote from the BS email that you sent me, “As we watch Obama rise in the US we are sure that whatever happens, he will use the same tactic, crying rigged election if he doesn’t win and possibly cause a race war in America. ”

      What makes the author of this shit SURE that Obama will loose, and if he does he will say that the election was rigged? Where are they getting their crystal ball??? I want one so I can put mine to more productive use and pick the winning lottery numbers for me. Secondarily their statement that he will possibly cause a race war in America is totally unfounded and just plain inflammatory. The statement is made just for effect with no logical basis or foundation. This again is designed to prey on the minds of the ignorant , the gullible, and the weak.

      The author of the email also states, “What we would like you to know is that the American press has been keeping a dirty little secret. Obama IS a Muslim and he IS a racist and this is a fulfillment of the 911 threat that was just the beginning. Jihad is the only true Muslim way.”

      How stupid is this???? First of all if Obama was a Muslim, why was he baptized in a Christian Church??? Why does he attend Christian services???, Why was he married in a Christian Church??? Why were his children baptized and brought up as Christians??? Even if he was a Muslim…So What? There are many Muslims that are good Americans also. The author of the email attempts to paint all Muslims with a terrorist brush, which just is not correct. Here is his or her logic, The 911 terrorist were Muslims, They belong to the class of Muslims and they belong to the class of terrorist, Therefore all Muslims are terrorist.

      Let’s play it a different way The KKK terrorist were White, They belong to the class of KKK terrorist and they belong to the class of White people. Therefore all White people are KKK terrorist. See, when I bring it closer to home you can clearly see the logical flaws in this persons thinking.

      The second part of their statement is that Obama is a “racist”. Let’s see now, Obama ½ Black and ½ White. Which race is he against? Oh, I get it now, it must be Asians because he is not part Asian? What do you think? How ignorant a comment was that!

    • Frank, that was a brilliant response. I’m going to repost it to Irregular Times as an article of its own – citing you as the author, of course.

    • Mroless

      With all this fuss and commotion and confusion about Obama and Clinton, why chance it? None, some, or all of the accusations could be true, but we won’t really know until it’s too late. Vote McCain!

    • Uh, there’s no confusion. Mroless, we do know that they’re not true.

      We also know for sure that John McCain thinks that keeping American soldiers in Iraq for 100 years, or even ten thousand years, is a good idea.

      John McCain’s policies have been given a chance for the last seven years, and they have failed.

      You want me to elect John McCain because of conspiracy theories spun by a man who believes that the National Football League is part of a secret plot to install Satan as the head of a one world government?

      Maybe that’s good enough for you, but it’s not good enough for me.

    • Gus

      Greetings,

      I’ve been floating around attempting to prove or disprove certain claims that have been made about Sen. Obama’s relationship and interaction with Mr. Odenga. These people may (or may not) be looney toons, but they may be basing “some” of their information on facts. With a simple email I can’t tell either way. I just want to know the verifiable truth of the following without all the vitriolic banter:

      1. Did Obama send Odenga a million dollars? And if so, can it be tied to his campaign?
      2. Who can verify the authenticity of Odenga’s claim that Obama is his cousin? (not horribly critical, but further cements theories and motives.)
      3. When Obama went to Kenya to “meet with his family” did he or did he not stump with/for Odenga and if not what was that picture of the two of them on stage about?
      4. Has the story of whether or not Obama called Odenga twice during Obama’s campaign trail to discuss things about Odenga’s failed presidential bid?

      I’m not saying what happened either way on any of these four questions. I’m simply asking them with no intended implications. I like to know the verifiable facts, not pontifications. Thanks.

    • Jim

      Sorry, Gus, but when you merit vitriol you’re going to get vitriol.

      ====

      Greetings,

      I’ve been floating around attempting to prove or disprove certain claims that have been made about Sen. McCain’s relationship and interaction with space aliens from the planet Quisbane. People making such claims about Senator McCain and space aliens may (or may not) be looney toons, but they may be be basing “some” of their information on facts. With a simple email I can’t tell either way. I just want to know the verifiable truth of the following without all the vitriolic banter:

      1. Did McCain sign a loyalty pledge to the planet Quisbane in exchange for a lifetime supply of Cocoa Puffs?
      2. Who can verify the authenticity of the claim that McCain’s left eye has been replaced with the replica of an eye that functions as a disintegration blaster?
      3. When McCain went to Arizona to “spend a week at home” did he or did he not take a detour to Tempe to meet with space aliens in the basement of the local Masonic lodge?
      4. Has the story of whether or not McCain activated an alien homing beacon twice on the floor of the Senate?

      I’m not saying what happened either way on any of these four questions. I’m simply asking them with no intended implications. I like to know the verifiable facts, not pontifications. Thanks.

      ====

      Yeah, I’m just asking whether it’s true. Shouldn’t the media do a special on it, you know, just to address the question? Why won’t Senator McCain answer these questions? Why won’t YOU answer these questions, Gus? After all, I’m just asking, right?

      You might as well have written about McCain and the planet Quisbane, Gus, for all the factual basis you have for them. Here’s the standard: if you have information and evidence that Barack Obama is simultaneously a closet Satanist, Christian and secret Islamic jihadist who is part of a secret plan to levitate the Pentagon, share it. If you don’t have it, you don’t have it. It’s not up to me to prove your wacky theory wrong. It’s up to you to show the world that your wacky theory is right. Because it is, you know, pretty darned wacky.

      Are you a secret agent from the planet Quisbane? Is that what’s behind your post? I think that’s a question worth answering. Or are you not willing to answer my question? What are you hiding? Hey, I just want the verifiable facts on your Earthlinghood before we proceed, Gus. And please, Gus, no pontifications — just prove that you’re an Earthling and then we can proceed from there. Thanks.

    • Edward Cathcart

      I live in East Africa. Please note that when Africans say someone is a ‘cousin’, it can be a very distant relationship. It could be a third or fourth or fifth cousin, or even just a member of the clan which has hundreds of thousands of members. What Europeans or Americans call ‘first cousins’, Africans consider to be essentially full brothers or sisters. Raila Odinga’s comments about Barrack Obama should be considered in this context. A ‘cousin’ can just mean ‘distantly related’ from an American point of view.

    • Darebrit

      The old saying goes: A secret is only a secret when when one person knows it. When you tell someone it becomes gossip. Gossip survives by feeding on repetition.

      Solution: Keep your own secrets. Form you own judgment.

      Negative comments made against political office seekers are rarely true. Case in point; the right wing attacks on John Kerry’s military service and the participation of Karl Rove in various attacks on Democratic participants in the political arena during the 2004 campaign and against McCain in the 2000 campaign.

      As for the media, they are the greatest distributors of rumor and lies by failure to investigate and expose malicious gossip and rejecting outright politically motivated generalizations.

      Unfortunately, we are ready to accept any calumny against those we dislike. Or we defend righteously any statement made by our chosen mentor.

    • ARW

      I read through all of these comments. Many of you have valid points. However, some of you.., Jim and Mr. Clifford for one..keeps giving illogical replies to some of those comments. May I suggest you take a course in Introductory Logic? Another great book, easy to read and comprehend is called: The Fallacy Detective. You are doing exactly what politicians do…ask questions when a question is asked. Gus had four very good questions. All Jim did was ask more questions and critize what Gus said.
      Another example is when J. Clifford replied to Deb…”So, then, Deb, you agree with Loren Davis that the National Football League is joined with public education in a conspiracy to help Satan establish this One World Government?” This is not a logical response J. Clifford.

      These are circular arguments and go no where. Learn how to argue with logic and this website will be much more interesting and informative.

      Seriously, The Fallacy Detective is an excellent, easy to read book on arguing locically. It should be required reading for anyone who wants to sound half way intelligent.
      Go ahead, make your rude comments about whether or not I sound logical. I would expect it.
      ARW

    • AT

      ARW – you failed to make any point whatsoever, so how would we know if you are logical or not? All you did was promote some book. Nice how people accuse others of being illogical, yet they cannot articulate why or how. Say something with substance, so we can all criticize you too. Somehow I doubt that you actually have any thoughts of your own.

    • ARW, if only people would reply to people’s actual points, we could proceed logically. Jim could have just replied to Gus with “hearsay, straw man.” But he went the extra mile to help Gus see the light by framing analogous questions (insinuations, really) around a different subject. Jim’s questions were of course rhetorical. An unquestioned McCain can beat a foreign satanist islamist atheist straw man in a campaign, but the real Bush-following McCain can’t beat the real change-bringing Obama.

    • ARW

      Thank you for your responses. You did the same thing. Why did no one directly respond intelligently, to Gus’s questions? I DID make a point. I even gave an example. Example ONE: Clifford’s reply to Deb’s. Example TWO: J’s reply to Gus’s. These responses are just questioning the questions. They go nowhere. I read this blog for one reason. I want to read both sides of an opinion to form my own.
      And what exact changes will Obama bring? More taxes. A new, handsome face. It’s great that he is black, but that doesn’t make him a good candidate. More government dependency–universal healthcare, more money into government education, etc. Is he going to help us find other sources of energy? Why does he want to punish the profitable companies? And why pick on oil? Why not Walmart, Microsoft, actors and actresses, sports figures. They make millions of dollars and don’t provide anything but mindless entertainment. True? Tell me why.

      Now here is my opinion. I would hate for Obama to be the president. I do not want to pay more taxes, which is what he is proposing. More taxes is a way to tell those who work their butts off: Don’t bother. We are going to take your money anyway. Don’t bother to become a doctor, lawyer, don’t invent anything. Don’t bother to get a doctorate degree and spend 10 years in school so you can make a large salary. Don’t start a corporation. We will tax you more and more. There is no point to working hard if the government is going to take your money by force. Just stay home and work at McDonalds where you get minimum wage and can’t afford a health care plan. Be lazy.
      Next opinion: I do not want socialized medicine. I like the way it works now.
      I have been on both sides of the fence. The poor side, living on welfare, getting government aid AND the side where I worked, I paid for my own education, I earned a college degree. I worked and my company provides insurance. Both sides I have seen.
      My mother sucked off the welfare system for years. Why? It was too expensive to hire a babysitter and go find a job. Her viewpoint was “Why work when the government provides enough to just get by.” We ate canned eggs, canned milk, and other crappy food. We walked everywhere and took a bus when available. Then she was angry when the government wouldn’t give her more and finally forced her to go get a job. She spent her free time shoppping at thrift stores. She wasn’t sick, she was lazy. I have living, breathing proof in this issue. People, when given a handout, will suck it to the last drop until they go out and stand on their two feet. I am not feeling sorry for myself. (I can hear that comment coming) This is the way it was. This life made me realize the value of hard work, the importance of an education.
      Our country was founded on liberty. We are slowly giving it all away. I know why people are compassionate, but there has got to be a stopping point.
      How much is too much? What percent of your paycheck are you willing to give to the government?
      There is no good candidate for president.
      I do have thoughts of my own.

    • Juniper

      ARW, one reason people are not responding to you is that your comments don’t have much real substance. You SAY that people aren’t being logical, but you don’t actually provide any reason to believe that. You’re just making assertions.

      In the comment you just left, you spend almost an entire paragraph asking questions without dealing with the answers to those questions. Then you proceed to offer anecdotes about your own personal pain, as if they provide a solid basis for general conclusions, which they don’t.

      You offer false dichotomies. You complain about losing liberty, then criticize the candidate who proposes restoring liberty. Your comments, ARW, make me wonder if you have actually bothered to inform yourself about Barack Obama through any independent effort, or whether your opinions are formed on the basis of watching television personalities talk.

    • Juniper

      You want responses to Gus’s questions? First, understand that they’re not sincere questions. They’re a rhetorical method of spreading baseless hearsay.

      Here are the answers for you:

      1. No.
      2. No one can.
      3. He did not.
      4. This isn’t even a real question, but no, nothing discussed in this semi-sentence has any factual basis.

    • AT

      ARW – “there are no good candidates for president” – fair enough. But guess what? There’s going to be a new president whether you like it or not. Not choosing is not much of a choice. So you like liberty? Then how could you take the chance that McCain might win? He has just joined Bush in the argument that a president need not follow laws when in war time, even if said president was the one who made the decision to start the very war the empowers him. Nice gig huh? So Obama might not be perfect, but he has called this war bullshit from the start. Go take a look at how many of your taxpayer dollars go to welfare for the poor. Compare that to the money wasted in Iraq. Not even in the same ballpark. We could give the whole world welfare for all the money we’ve borrowed to spend in Iraq.
      As far as Obama is concerned, I support him but I don’t look to him as a savior either. I don’t offer him the same blind allegience that Republicans gave to Bush for the last eight years. I’d like him to win, but he’s going to have to continue proving himself to be the man he claims to be if he wants my continued support.

    • Anonymous

      on #4 of Gus question, yes Obama office says he had at least one phone contact with Odinga, it was during the New Hampshire primary, Obama also had a hand in having Odinga a role in the government to stop the violence after Moslem faction lost the election. Try google the Kenya newspaper, there is one in /English with lots of Obama stuff in it.

    • AT

      There’s Iroquois once again hiding behind “anonymous” slinging dirt at Obama with no direct reference – just a bunch of hearsay. So you are supporting McCain now Louise? Sour grapes, poor lady. Sour grapes.

    • Jim

      Nope, actually, that’s not her, at least not by IP. But yes, Iroquois appears to be supportive of John McCain.

      Anonymous is actually correct — he called Odinga for five minutes in January of 2008 to place pressure upon him. I have no idea why this is controversial.

    • AT

      It sounds just like her. I’m sure she’s found a few new open routers in her neighborhood to thwart your ban. She likely wouldn’t use her handle if she didn’t want to be blocked yet again.

    • I am proud to consider myself an evangelical and theologically conservative Kenyan-american pastor in Cleveland Ohio for the past 20 years. I happen to come from the Luo ethnic community of Kenya. And for your information both Prime Minister Raila Odinga andSenator Barack Obama families are known to me. The Odinga family was associated with earliest church missionary work in Kenya and the family has been part of anglican church (church missionary society). The late Oginga Odinga, the father of Raila Odinga was educated at Maseno Mission and later became a missionary teacher at the same mission school where Raila Odinga was born, baptised and confirmed as a church member. Prime Minister Raila has never denounced his faith in Christ. Prime Minister Raila is a committed christian and for your information Anglican church in Kenya is very evangelical and conservative
      The Senator Obama kenya family side is related to me. Every time I have spoken with Senator Obama, he has requested prayers and thank me and the church for the prayers. It is sad and evil to hear someone claiming that Obama is a moslemand have especially when this comes from a missionary couple claiming to have worked in Kenya and have kowledge of the Luo ethnic group. These lies about Raila and Obama simply confirm that satan is a live and using human beings like these missionaries . This likes leaves me wondering if these people were true missionaries at all! I look foward to other evangelicals and conservatives coming out to denounce Loren Davis and Celeste Davis lies.
      This missionary couple is an embarassement to the people of faith and must be condemned. I wonder what whose work couple did in Kenya!. It is one thing not to support Senator Obama’s Presidential bid but when missionaries spread of lies of ones character then it is the duty of Christ loving people especially church leaders to come out and denounce such lies because such activities can jeopadize the good work christians missionaries. Missionaries are trusted and lies like this one is dangerous if not challenged. I trust leaders such Dr. Dobson and the rest will come out strong and reject these lies against Senator Obama. As one who is a minister and has had good knowledge of Obama both as a minister, a Luo and a pesonal relationship with Obama family both in USA and Kenya. I can confirm to you that Barack Obama is a christian. All you hear to the contrary are lies from messengers of satan.

      Rev. Abel Oriri
      Pastor, Heights Fellowship Church
      Cleveland Ohio

      • Debbie

        My question to you is this, if Obama is a Christian, then why does he believe in a “collective salvation?” Salvation is by the blood of Jesus Christ and his death on the cross, burial, and resurrection. It is a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior. He is deceived, especially when his stand on abortion and homosexual marriage is against our Great Heavenly Father. I for one, don’t believe YOU. Anyone can claim Christianity and not even know what it means.

        • Debbie, my question to you is this: If Toyotas are cars, then why are they painted green? Cars should not be painted green! Anybody can just go and put four wheels on something, and come along with a big can of green paint and say “Vrooooom!” and say that they’ve got a car, and it makes me mad and dammit I’m not going to take it any more!!!!!!!!

          I totally know where you’re coming from.

        • Oh, wait a minute, Debbie. I just re-read your message, and I think I understand it now. Barack Obama’s personal support (he hasn’t taken action politically) for homosexual marriage is “against our Great Heavenly Father”? So are you saying that Jehovah isn’t ready to get married to Zeus, and wants to keep an open relationship? For as long as those guys have been dating, I just don’t think that’s right.

    • Anonymous

      the link in #52 is causing softwear probs, can you remove it?

    • Lin Go

      One quick scroll down, is all I need to abandon this website. I give it a thumbs down, pooh. I’m not familar with this style of Christianity. Thank you God of Love, who brought Jesus to forgive us from our sins.
      This site could cause ulcers.

    • jason

      I like Obama and I like McCain. I think they are both intelligent and honest men. Are either of them perfect?, certainly not. I wish people would just stick to facts and quit the smear tactics. I will vote for Obama because after having 8 years of a Republican administration, our country has gone down the tubes financially. Hopefully Mr. Obama will get the country on track if he is elected. If he doesn’t, then I guess we will see what the next four years will bring us.

    • Meg

      ARW, you say that Obama will raise taxes. He has promised to get rid of the Bush tax cuts that favored the wealthy, and to increase taxes only on those who make more than $250,000 a year.

      Meanwhile, while claiming to cut taxes, Bush and the GOP have plunged us into debt the likes of which the US has never seen before, and which is on the verge of bankrupting our nation. Under Clinton, we finally achieved a balanced budget and quit deficit-financing our government. The minute Bush got into office, he rushed thorugh massive tax cuts for millionaires and he and the GOP spent eight years spending money like drunken sailors.

      When you say you don’t like taxes, I have to ask, which services are you willing to give up? Those taxes pay, in part, for highly necessary services, including for you. Just because a few people take advantage of the system doesn’t mean we should make it impossible for the most desperate to get help. Meanwhile, with Welfare Reform passed under Clinton, there’s a five-year cap on welfare, so those kinds of abuses can no longer take place.

      Are you aware that when John F. Kennedy cut taxes, the top rate was 91%? When Reagan cut taxes, the top rate was 70%. When the top rate was 91%, there was more income equality in the US than at any time before or since. With each cut in the top rate and with each new loophole for the wealthy, more of the tax burden falls on the shoulders of the middle class, yet we’re still running the government on empty, borrowing so much of what we spend that we pay billions in interest on that debt every month. That’s money that could have helped rebuild our infrastructure or (name your favorite program or need).

      Taxes are the price one pays for civilization. Our tax system is so far out of whack today that there’s no excuse for the mess it’s in, yet the philosophy that one can keep cutting taxes on the highest earners, debt finance the government, and leave the interest and repayment to future generations is criminal irresponsibility. I’m voting for someone who has promised to undo some of the harm done by the GOP’s belief in the “magic hand of the free market,” which is not at all free, but consists primarily of socialism for the corporations and social Darwinism for the rest of us. Meg

    • roy

      what a bunch of hooey

    • Well this is my first time reading the Irregular Times and I do not have the time at this moment to look into other stories. However, in reading this particular story, I feel I must respond.

      While I cannot confirm anything about the Rick Warren accusation, I will tell you that the others are absurd. I am a Christian, and conservative. I do not know every word of the Bible and I don’t claim to be perfect. In fact, I’m far from it, but it is Jesus Christ who has saved me and forgiven me. On that note, I must say that you are taking these statements written/made by Loren Davis in the wrong context. Having a Christian background, I understand exactly what Loren is saying and it is the truth.

      I am not condemming you, rather reccommending that you look things up before you reveal your “facts”, and even ideas. Have you read the Bible? Have you searched it to find where Loren’s information is coming from? I encourage you to do so and see what you find.

      Please, please, please look me up and ask anything you want.

    • Oh, and by the way, the accusations I was refferring to are the four that are bulleted on this page. I have not been able to look further into others.

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