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Will You Meet This Christian Challenge?

Some Christians like to make a big deal about what they call the Ten Commandments, but the truth is that the Bible has a lot more commandments than just those ten from the Old Testament. The Bible is a pretty pushy book. Do this, don’t do that, do this, yadda yadda yadda…

One place where the Bible gets especially preachy is the Sermon on the Mount. The Bible has more than one version of this sermon, which is purported to come from Jesus himself. One version of the sermon is found in the Book of Matthew. From that version comes the following commandment: “Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.”

christian ten dollar challengeHere’s a test for all you Christians out there, then. Do you really believe in the teachings in the Bible? If you do, then you’ll need to give something to me, as Matthew 5:42 commands you to do.

I’m asking you for ten dollars, Christians. Now, please give me ten dollars. It’s not too much of a price to pay to prove your piety, is it?

Here’s how you can send me that ten dollars: We have a PayPay secure route for your payment all set up.

80 comments to Will You Meet This Christian Challenge?

  • Anonymous

    ***copy and paste below***

    Many believe that what Jesus requires here is foolish, that is, to give to everyone who asks of us and to allow our goods to be plundered without objection. Perhaps Luke 6:34-35 helps to clarify what Jesus intends:

    And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Highest. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.

    His illustration in Matthew 5:42 deals with borrowing and lending, not with allowing oneself to be plundered. As in the other illustrations, His primary point is that it is preferable to suffer loss or harm than to retaliate or worsen the situation. When we give to someone in need, we should not expect to be repaid for our generosity, and we should certainly not take steps to force reimbursement. Christian charity should be done without expectation of gain. Yet, God sees, and He will show us favor: “He who has pity on the poor lends to the LORD, and He will pay back what he has given” (Proverbs 19:17).

    from,
    http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/23277/eVerseID/23277

    • Who’s plundering you? I’m asking you for ten dollars.

      You abandon Jesus just in order to save ten dollars?!? That’s not even 30 pieces of gold! What kind of Christian are you, to fail you savior and Lord?

      You may not have a personal relationship with Jesus for much longer if he finds out about this.

      So, okay. Jesus is not worth ten dollars to you. What if I offer you a discount of 50 cents? Please write back and let me know if you accept this offer to sacrifice at this discount rate for the son of God and I will set up a special page just for you.

      Act now, though, for this is a limited time offer!

    • ReMarker

      So if I lend F.G. 10 bucks (whether he is my enemy or not), and don’t expect anything back, my “reward will be great” and I “will be sons of the Highest”? Hmm, sounds good. Actually it sounds to good to be true. Sorry F.G.

      • Well, of course it’s too good to be true – just like the rest of the Bible and its loopy teachings. I’m just performing a test to see whether Christians respect their own holy book. Apparently, they don’t. They just pretend to respect the teachings of Jesus. Glad to see it’s out in the open now.

  • So, then I’m asking you to LEND me the ten dollars through the PayPal link.

    I might give it back to you. I might not. Don’t be unthankful and evil now, okay? Don’t be like those sinners.

    Jesus doesn’t say “discuss what people ask of you”. He says give it. So, are you going to follow Jesus, Anonymous, or not?

    By the way, although many people have viewed this article even in just the few hours since it’s been published. Not one Christian has followed the commandment of Jesus.

    Christian when it suits their personal interest, and whistling and looking the other way when it’s inconvenient. What is the point of this religion if its followers don’t actually do anything more than strike a pose in church?

  • Ziggy Zoggy

    F. A. G. Fister,

    Jesus was referring to the needy, not the greedy, you capering little buffoon. If you’d bothered to study the Bible instead of ineffectively mocking select passages, you would already know this.

    What do you care what somebody else believes? It’s not like Christians are forcing mouth frothing Marxists and atheists to conform to their views. Meanwhile, the constitutional rights of Christian worship, expression and free speech are being suppressed all across the country–by hypocritically self righteous atheists.

    The Imperialistic, genocidal, rapacious, homophobic, misogynistic, gang raping, slave owning, honor killing, throat slashing, baby killing, suicide bombing, child molesting, flea bitten Islamopithecines get a free pass, of course.

    Atheists are not prohibited in any way shape or form from practicing or espousing their faith in nihilism and the folly of man.

    The fanatically intolerant forces on the left routinely purge all religious elements from public AND private Christmas events and displays (along with any other constitutional displays of Christianity they can suppress,) but suffer not a whit of guilt for forcing gay “pride” parades (bacchanals,) and Marxist rallies on the usually unwilling public.

    At least now that the Obamessiah is “Warmonger in Chief” we aren’t subjected to any more “peace” rallies. I wonder why that is? (Insert rolling of eyes here.)

    You have things backwards. Hatemongers often do, but only the particularly stupid ones actually believe their rhetoric. Your smug snarkiness is unfounded.

    • Z.Z., I see that you refuse to follow the path of Jesus. You respond to my effort to help you prove your piety by engaging in evasion. Where in Mark 5:42 does it say that Jesus was only referring to the needy? And besides, who are you to judge whether I’m needy or not?

      Jesus doesn’t say, “Give to him that asketh thee, but only if you think that he really needs it, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away, unless you judge him to be unworthy.” He says, “Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.”

      That’s very clear. I’m sorry that you have turned away from the path of Jesus, and instead have entered a path of accusing those that Jesus embraced of homosexuality. Just what does that say about what you think about Jesus, that you’re accusing those whom he embraced of homosexuality?

      How’s that eye of the needle thing working out for you?

      • Also, giving money to you does not “prove your piety”. The Bible does not teach us to walk around and cower. We are told to call out falsehoods and those who teach them.

        • Sorry, to be precise, following the teachings of Jesus does not prove your Christian piety. That’s a neverending test. However, by not following the teachings of Jesus, refusing to obey his commandment in Matthew 5:42, you are proving your lack of piety.

          Yours is a religion of convenience. You call out falsehoods when it suits you.

          And who says the Bible doesn’t teach you to cower? It tells you to take a second smack when you’ve been given a first smack. I do suppose you could do that standing up straight, taking it with silent dignity, if that’s what you mean.

          Maybe you’re a Gieslerian rather than a Christian.

          Are you a believer in the Big Book of Bible Difficulties, a primer in how to squirm out of the huge number of obvious problems with the Bible, or are you a believer in the BIble itself?

  • Ziggy Zoggy

    P.S.,

    as a preening moonbat mouthing his self proclaimed moral superiority, why don’t you send ME ten dollars? After all, you’re much more altruistic than any knuckle dragging, misanthropic Christian. You care about mankind. Help out a fellow man. Send me a thousand dollars a month.

    Why should those stingy Christians be allowed to donate more to charity than any other organization? (All other organizations, governments and individuals combined.) It isn’t fair. We need equality of results, not effort.

    You talk the socialist talk. Time to walk the socialist walk. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

    • Jesus didn’t say “Give to him that asketh thee, but only if he gives to you first.”

      So, are you a follower of Christ or not?

      By the way, if you were to be consistent about the Socialist thing, you’d ask me to give to the government, and then you’d go and get government services.

      Are you calling Jesus a Socialist, by the way?

  • Ziggy Zoggy

    Fister,

    I see you refuse to follow the doctrine of Marx and your Obamessiah. You refuse to help the disadvantaged achieve equality.

    As to Mark, only the needy asked or borrowed in his experience. That was clear to all who read his words outside of special educational circles, but he didn’t anticipate the inane argumentation of modern moonbats and their shameless ability to take what they don’t need from those who do.

    Jesus never said we should donate to those who weren’t in need. In fact, he said just the opposite. For example, he actively opposed sin absolution bribes to the Temple that were meant to further enrich guys fat cats like Caiaphus at the expense of the donator’s integrity. He was opposed to high taxes too. (Hm. Sounds like moderates Vs. Leftists.)

    You want my money, you want high taxes, and you mock God. Yeah. Right. Jesus would’ve embraced you and your views. He horse whipped moneylenders outside the Temple for far less.

    What do you have against homosexuals, anyway? Since when is it insulting to be a homo, or referred to as one? Are you homophobic? Do you hate homos as much as you hate Christians, moderates and Republicans—and BusHitler? No wonder you find common cause with the Islamopithecines and socialist stalwarts such as Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro and Lil’ Kim Jong Ill.

    If you were consistent in your socialism, you’d espouse violent revolution rather than the redistribution of wealth to those who don’t need or deserve it. Like all unconscious socialists, you don’t even understand the ideology you espouse.

    I’m a White male and possibly a -gasp!- Christian. How much help do you suppose I would receive in your new world order? I’m one of those despised undesirables you want to consign to the oppressed underclass. After all, the only White male oppressors who deserve a seat at the table are the enlightened ones who have embraced the failed policies of Marxism and political correctness. Somebody has to run things, right? Socially conscious “progressives” like you need to ride herd on the hoi polloi. (I’m not proletariat if I’m not compensated for my work.)

    Jesus was a Fundamentalist. No wonder you hate him.

    • So now you’re saying that I ought to be glad to be the follower of your Messiah worshipping religion because it encourages the whipping of people who dare to ask questions and express doubt?

      You don’t even really follow your Messiah, Z.Z. Just when it’s convenient to you. You sell him out for the price of two gallons of gasoline.

      Apparently, I’ve exposed a raw nerve by pointing out that what you like to think about your religious belief doesn’t match the reality of your actions.

      Asking you for ten dollars puts me in the same class as Pol Pot?

      Now that’s a laugh riot!

    • What I really love with all this talk about context and such is that the larger context of the Sermon on the Mount included NOT doing exactly what Z.Z. is doing. Matthew 5:47 says, “And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others?” Jesus was calling for a generous spirit toward non-followers of Christ, but Z.Z. can’t seem to tolerate that teaching of Jesus. Here, Z.Z. salutes only his brethren, and calls everyone else by insults such as “moonbat” and “Islamopithecine”.

      Z.Z. seems to think that his Bible is good only as a means for justifying attacks on others. Sad. Why do Christians like him hate it so much when people ask them to actually pay attention to what’s in the Bible?

  • FG, you are taking this line out of context. But I do have to say, well done. You cheerry pick better than Jim. This passage needs to be taken in context with Matt 5:38-42. The context is refering in to retaliation. When you lend money out do not do so with the intent of making money back on it. If the person is unable to pay it back you should not hunt them down to retrieve it. Just move on. In no way shape or form does this text imply that we should just hand out money to any who ask for it. In fact, this can be seen even greater if we broaden our look pack a couple more lines. The section just behind this deals with oaths (v. 5:33-37). We see that the whole point of this is to let your ‘yes be yes and your no be no’. When a Christian says yes we follow through, if the other person does not we do not take revenge on that person.

    In this particular case at Irregular Times we actually can take this to the next level. We should not be making oaths with unsaved people and should not be funding the spread of false idles. By giving to Irregular Times both of those would be fullfilled making it sinful to give money to an individual who works for such.

    Just as a rule taking into account the surrounding text will help in understanding passages like this. You can make the Bible say whatever you want by cherry picking passages. That is obviously a dishonest thing to do

    In this case I am going to let my no mean no…

    • You know, it’s really funny, and when I say “funny” I mean dishonest, for BIblical literalists to demand that certain passages that don’t suit your convenience be twisted with tremendous reinterpretations, as you’ve done, yet for the passages that create inconveniences for OTHER people, you demand literal interpretation with no room for context and no mercy.

      You ought to be ashamed for yourself, coming here all this time and preaching at us about how we ought to follow the Bible, and then refusing to do so yourself. Why should we listen to a thing you say?

      You sold out Jesus for a lousy ten dollars.

      Not one single Christian so far is willing to stand by their Holy Bible. They won’t follow the teachings of Jesus when it costs them money. What a petty little faith they have.

      • “Not one single Christian so far is willing to stand by their Holy Bible”
        ***
        Its because your high horse is standing in quick sand. When your hidden gem of a deal in the Bible turns out to be not true people always accuse us of twisting things around. The crazy twist to that is the fact that these interpretations were around long before people like you started pulling all of these out of your tails. If you could see Christians changing this verse around over the years to suit there needs your rant might hold water… Unfortinatly for you, it doesnt

        • Well of course the cherry picking Cafeteria Christianity approach you use to deny the teachings of Jesus have been around for a long time. Greed is an ancient emotion. Christians have been contorting the meaning of the Bible through twisted exegesis for almost two thousand years.

          You’re admitting that the Bible isn’t true, Jacob – but before you preached to us that the Bible is always literally true, without contradictions. Which is it?

          And by the way, Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount doesn’t say that you should just follow his teachings unless other people sit on high horses and are annoying. He’s saying that especially when people annoy you, you should be generous to them and give them what they ask for. Read it. Have you read it lately, or are you just quoting some kind of Bible Cliff Notes?

          Search your heart. Wouldn’t you rather just give me ten dollars than continue to sell out your religion?

    • You’re counting on people here not being able to think for themselves, Jacob. You’re making an assertion of some mitigating context of the Sermon on the Mount, when that context really supports what the words themselves actually say: That Jesus expected his followers to give up their possessions freely. Matthew 5:40, for example, says that people shouldn’t resist lawsuits, but ought to welcome them by giving plaintiffs twice the amount that they ask for. That’s context that supports rather than detracting from the very clear meaning of 5:42 – that you should give things to people when they ask for them, without their being “needy” put into the equation at all.

    • Jim

      “Cherry pick”?

      Jacob, you’re the one who has said every word of the Bible is the inerrant word of God. That means you have to stand by all of it if you’re going to be the kind of Christian you say you are.

      Jesus was very clearly, in context, an anti-materialist. He repeatedly, not just once, spoke of giving away material things to others. So Fitzer’s question is a pretty good one. And your efforts to wiggle away from the very clear implications of Jesus’ anti-materialism suggest to me that you worship something else more strongly than you worship Jesus. What is it?

      • So you honestly believe that the Bible teaches that followers of Christ must give away things to just anybody at any given time just because that person says so? Jim, you said you have had the chance to read the entire Bible right? You honestly believe that is the teaching? You are lieing on one of the two items if you say yes to both. Dishonesty is not the best policy.

        • Jim

          Why are you calling me a liar?

          Saying I’m wrong and documenting exactly why I’m wrong is the most thorough approach, and the one I’m most likely to actually respond to.

          Saying I’m wrong without documentation makes me roll my eyes, because YES, I have read the Bible, and YES, I am perfectly aware of just how anti-materialist Jesus is in his teachings and actions.

          Saying I’m a liar and dishonest, without any documentation whatsoever, not only will not accomplish your goal of changing my mind but will move me in the opposite direction, toward concluding that you are an unserious person whose unsupported claims I should discount in the future.

          Saying I’m a liar and dishonest while trying to shift the discussion from Jesus to the whole Bible almost makes me laugh, it’s so transparent. Oh, I’m fully aware that there are parts of the Bible encouraging individual prosperity and obsessing about people getting what’s theirs and not having what belongs to other people. But Jesus is providing a different message, a radical message, a highly anti-materialist message divergent from that in other parts of the Bible. Which happens because the Bible is an inconsistent story written by lots of different people with different points of view.

    • Jim

      Actually, if you believe as you say that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and if you pay attention Bible proclaims in Deuteronomy that the LORD’s commandments must be followed for a thousand generations, then you should be killing everybody who speaks counter to your religion.

      The LORD demands it, and Jesus says not a jot or tittle shall pass from the law until the end of Earth and heaven. So I guess you’d better hop to it. Bring some really big, heavy rocks! But if, while you’re raising the final fatal stone and aiming at our foreheads, we ask you for some cash, you should give it to us. Jesus says so.

      Woo hoo! Ain’t the Bible a hoot?

  • ReMarker

    I think F.G. is making an excellent point hyper-ideological people could appreciate and gain enlightenment from.

    Isn’t F.G.’s point, ‘that words can be taken from the text of a book and put in an arbitrary context, regardless of the intent of the author’? F.G. is doing what Christian ideologs do all the time with their Bible quoting and their insistance that their interpretation is the “TRUTH”, regardless of other facts that are pertinant to reaching the full or real “TRUTH”. The hyper-ideolog Christian, I refer to, is the one that is a Bible literalist. The other facts I refer to, could be called “God’s creation” but are also known as “the laws of nature”, and don’t require believing in God to understand that they are real and true.

    Z.Z. comments are a good example of the rhetoric of many Christian ideologs. They seem to percieve that their understanding of all that can be understood, is the “TRUTH” regardless of pertinant facts. He seems to have decided, as a “possibly a -gasp!- Christian”, he not only knows what God wants, but has an understanding of things like socialism (we all help build our roads dumb-ass, that’s socialism). Additionally, he seems to think he knows the thinking and motivations of others.

    As the words in Z.Z.’s comments reveal, his “final solution” seems to be an America that does not include “undesirables”, pre his discriptions of the things he (Z.Z.) doesn’t like.

    Quoted Examples:

    “Self righteous atheists”.

    “Imperialistic, genocidal, rapacious, homophobic, misogynistic, gang raping, slave owning, honor killing, throat slashing, baby killing, suicide bombing, child molesting, flea bitten Islamopithecines”.

    “Gay “pride” parades”.

    “Marxist”.

    “Obamessiah”.

    “We aren’t subjected to any more “peace” rallies”.

    “Stupid hatemongers”. (Smart ones are OK, I guess.)

    “Warmonger in Chief”.

    “Smug snarkiness”.

    “Preening moonbat”.

    “Self proclaimed moral superiority”.

    “You’re much more altruistic than any knuckle dragging, misanthropic Christian”.

    “Inane argumentation of modern moonbats and their shameless ability”.

    “Fanatically intolerant forces on the left”.

    And more but I’m tired of c&p.

    Z.Z. seems Nazistic to me.

    Z.Z., oh great white one, does God speak to you in your dreams?

    • Jim

      I agree with you, ReM.

      “Islamopithecines” was really my favorite. I’d never heard that one before. And I’m still trying to work out how the “Islamopithecines” managed to fit in here. Let us proclaim the mystery of faith…

  • Ziggy Zoggy

    “So now you’re saying that I ought to be glad to be the follower of your Messiah worshipping (sic) religion because it encourages the whipping of people who dare to ask questions and express doubt?”

    This exemplifies what I wrote about you not understanding the Bible. You’re misrepresenting a book you’ve never even read, as well as everything I’ve written. Typical left-wing tactic. That’s what happens when you plagiarize the cherry picked distortions of other hatemongers without doing any research of your own. The trite and hackneyed arguments you fancy as clever were refuted by greater minds centuries ago. Juvenile distortions and irrational hatred are all you have to go on.

    Jesus whipped the money lenders because they desecrated the house of God. The fact that they were also preying on the unfortunate was an added bonus, I reckon. Take heed, Obamaton.

    Lefties like you love to portray your hate mongering, bigotry and mockery as simple questions or legitimate doubts, but your collective irrationality always gives you away. If you had legitimate questions about Christianity or anything else that you detest, you would seek knowledge. Instead, you attack anything and any one you disagree with you, despite the fact that you don’t understand what or who you’re attacking. Ironically, your mind has obviously been made up for you by others, because you spout the standard lefty line. I’m sure you fancy yourself an original and independent thinker, despite the fact that you simply regurgitate stock leftist calumny about Christianity and its adherents, who outnumber the followers of all other faiths combined–especially atheism.

    I don’t post mindless attacks against atheists on the web simply because I disagree with them. That’s what you do to Christians. I have questions and doubts about a theoretical doctrine that claims the physical universe is the random result of a spontaneous event, seeing as how no spontaneous event has ever been observed in nature, physics or anywhere else. But just because I don’t believe “nothing” exploded and transmogrified into the universe doesn’t mean I want to suppress others from believing such nonsense or practicing their faith in nihilism. If you want to replace God with man in your hubris, go right ahead. Just don’t attack the peaceful faith of others and attempt to force the yoke of Marxism on their necks. The world doesn’t need any more failed socialist dystopias, and it sure as hell doesn’t need an Obamessiah.

    You don’t even really follow the teleprompted words of your Obamaessiah, Fister. Just when it’s convenient to you. You sell him out for the price of two gallons of gasoline. If you even ride in another person’s car, much less drive your own, you’re an utter hypocrite. Where will Christians be relegated to in this hypothetical fantasyland of equality you and your hopelessly elitist Obamessiah envision? True egalitarians do not oppress those who dare to disagree with them.

    “Apparently, I’ve exposed a raw nerve by pointing out that what you like to think about your religious belief doesn’t match the reality of your actions.”

    The only raw nerve is the one that’s causing you to twitch spasmodically. Jesus never asked me to give my hard earned cash to slothful sybarites or rapacious phonies. He didn’t ask me to flush it down the bottomless toilet of socialism/communism either.

    “Asking you for ten dollars puts me in the same class as Pol Pot?”

    No, you disingenuous moron. Espousing failed socialist policies and fomenting a creepy cult of personality is what you have in common with the late Mr Pot. If you don’t like being compared to Pol Pot or Hitler, stop espousing so many of their ideals.

    “What I really love with all this talk about context and such is that the larger context of the Sermon on the Mount included NOT doing exactly what Z.Z. is doing. Matthew 5:47 says, ‘And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others?’ Jesus was calling for a generous spirit toward non-followers of Christ, but Z.Z. can’t seem to tolerate that teaching of Jesus. Here, Z.Z. salutes only his brethren, and calls everyone else by insults such as ‘moonbat’ and ‘Islamopithecine’.”

    Are you even capable of addressing a point of debate without deliberately misrepresenting it, setting up straw men and projecting your own character flaws and false arguments onto others? (I know how you moonbats love that phrase “straw man,” so I used it correctly so that you’d learn its true meaning.) Jesus never preached submission to attack, and you’re definitely attacking Christianity and all Christians. Even his suggestion to “turn the other cheek” was meant to defend dignity and thwart attacks. It prevented attackers from backhanding their intended victims. I won’t be backhanded by a moonbat and I wont submit to socialism or islam.

    Please tell me what it is about the genocidal, homophobic, misogynistic, atheist hating Islamopithecines that you feel the need to defend them while simultaneously disparaging the peaceful and charitable Christians? Do you enjoy seeing civilized cultures submit to the warmongering proto-hominids of islam? Do you approve of the execution of homosexuals? Do you get a thrill out od seeing women trated as chattel? Do you want to lend money to animals who hate atheists even more than they hate Jews, Christians and Americans? Don’t wrry. I don’t expect an honest answer.

    “Z.Z. seems to think that his Bible is good only as a means for justifying attacks on others. Sad. Why do Christians like him hate it so much when people ask them to actually pay attention to what’s in the Bible?”

    You’re the one who is using the Bible as a means to attack others. Facts are facts, irrespective of personal opinion or bald faced lies. Why do anti-Christian bigots get so hysterical when people catch them misrepresenting the Bible–a book they’ve never read and don’t believe in anyway?

    Jacob is right. You don’t understand the cherry picked Biblical passages you’ve plagiarized out of context. A lie told often enough becomes the truth, is that it?

    Isn’t it time for you to go protest the American military that protects your worthless life? Most of them are Christian, after all.

    • ReMarker

      Z.Z., I apologize for calling you a dumb ass. After rereading this thread multiple times, I realized I had done to you, one of the most offensive things you do in your posts, ie. calling people that disagree with you, names. I’m sorry for calling you a dumb ass.

      I do NOT apologize for trying to make points that ideological people, using the Bible to justify faulty logic and behavior, clearly do not behave in the best interest of “we the people” as well as many Biblical points.

      Galatians 5
      Verses:

      19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

      20. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

      21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

      22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

      23. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

      26. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

      For the record (and not to join a “I know more about the Bible than you” pissing contest), most Americans have been exposed to the “Christian” interpretation of Biblical writings for their entire lives. Some of us, have spent ‘more than the average’ time in regular and professional Biblical studies. This point means;
      1. Z.Z. is not the sole interpretator of the meaning of the Bible,
      2. Reading or studying the Bible doesn’t change the meaning of its text, and
      3. The meaning of the text of the Bible is open to interpretation, regardless of its (the Bible’s) statement of self-perfection.

      Reminder: Humans and their works are not perfect, ever. It’s a Law of Nature!!!

      Z.Z., may the force be with you.

  • Ralph

    Note sure I follow your argument. How exactly does saying horribly bigoted things about Muslims demonstrate that “give to him that asketh thee” does not mean “if someone asks you for something, give it to him?”

  • qs

    Funny pics from tea party. LittleGreenFootballs not a big fan of the D.C. Teaparty march.

    I don’t like the LGF website but couldn’t resist.

  • I forgot to mention. I did some research for you and found a book you might like.

    “The Big Book of Bible Difficultes” by Norman L. Geisler and Thomas Howe

    http://www.amazon.com/Big-Book-Bible-Difficulties-Revelation/dp/0801071585

    Its a fairly cheap book that I think will help you guys answer a lot of questions. It goes verse by verse and helps with the most troblesome passages…

  • Ziggy Zoggy

    Ralf,

    Note sure I follow your argument. What exactly does telling the horrible truth about islam and its devout followers have to do with the book of Mark or ANY of its passages? (None of which preach jihad.)

    You’re suffering from a logic deficit and most probably an honesty deficit as well.

    Maybe YOU can tell me what is excusable about a cult that actively practices and espouses (for Islamopithicines only) genocide, Imperialism, slavery, child molestation, child abuse, the persecution of women, homosexuals and non “Arabs,” ignorance, poor hygiene and inbreeding? Do you share these family values?

    Jacob already explained the meaning of the passage in Mark that is no longer in question, so man up and show a modicum of personal integrity.

    • Z.Z., the commandment that Jesus gave was to treat everyone, even those who oppose you, with kindness. You don’t seem able to do that. Of course, Jesus himself was not able to follow that advice. As was true of so many of his moral teachings, he couldn’t achieve what he told others to do – even though, right there in the Book of Matthew he told his followers that they ought to be “perfect”. Well, it’s no wonder you’re confused. Christianity is an inconsistent religion.

    • Ralph

      I was not putting forward an argument, which is perhaps part of the reason why you are not sure whether or not you can follow it. I was asking you to clarify why you said bigoted things about Islam in response to a challenge to live according to the words of Matthew. By way of clarification, you ASK how “the truth about Islam” has anything to do with the book of Mark. This is quite simply does not follow at all.

      As with all bigoted thinking, your anti-Islamic tirades are absurd. Just as an example, hundreds of millions of Muslims are not Arabs, so to characterize Islam generally as a religion that persecutes “non ‘Arabs'” quite simply does not fit with the facts.

      I read the post where Jacob argued that “Give to him that asketh thee” does not mean that you should give things to people that ask for them. Jacob said it has to do with lending and non-retaliation, not giving. Jacob fails to explain why Jesus said “give” when he really meant “lend” or “do not retaliate.”

      If you want to say the Bible doesn’t mean give when it says “give,” you can say that. But you can’t say that without conceding that the Bible does not mean what it says.

      Making fun of my typos, accusing me of a lack of integrity, telling me to “man up,” etc. is not only petty but completely irrelevant. It’s not the kind of tactic someone resorts to whey they have a solid rational argument.

      • Jacob

        Ralph,
        There are several thoughts that all run together dealing with retaliation. You are traying to take a sentance in the middle of a paragraph and make it say something different then what the paragraph is talking about. The section is on retaliation, plain and simple

        • Okay, Jacob. I’ll take this sentence out of your paragraph: “The section is on retaliation, plain and simple.”

          Can I conclude, because it’s just a sentence out of a paragraph, that you think that that section of the Sermon on the Mount is NOT about retaliation? Would I be “cherry picking” to say that you think that the section is about retaliation?

          The only thing I couldn’t fairly quote as literal in your paragraph is the part about “traying”. Is this because you’re a better writer than the writers of the Bible? Or, maybe, did the writers of the Bible mean what they wrote?

        • Ralph

          Here’s the context, Matthew 5:38-42:

          38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
          39 but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
          40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
          41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
          42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

          The context of giving is clear: give someone who sues you more than they sued you for, go an extra mile with someone who compels you to go one, never refuse to loan money. You ignore this, yet claim to be working from context.

          Jim mentioned the broader context of the strong anti-materialist tendency in Jesus’ teachings (particularly the Sermon on the Mount as recorded in Matthew), which you also completely ignore. This is abundantly clear in passages like Matthew 6:25:

          “Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?”

          There’s nothing in the context to support your claim that “give to him that asketh thee” means anything other than “if someone asks you for something, give it to them.”

          • Jim

            The even broader context of Matthew 5 is that of going beyond compliance to meaningful generosity, both spiritually and materially. Yes, yes, Jesus says, by all means obey the law, obey every jot and tittle for ever and ever, yeah yeah, ok, but COME ON, people, pull your heads out of your asses and stop thinking about what you HAVE TO do. Go beyond what the commandments say you HAVE TO do and CHOOSE TO give of yourself BEYOND them.

            Don’t just not murder people. Choose to not feel like murdering people and to open your heart to them instead.
            Don’t just not commit adultery. Choose to commit to putting away adulterous thoughts, and commit to loving your spouse.
            Don’t just not steal from others. Choose to be ready to give your possessions to people who ask you for them.

            And here’s the hard part, Jesus says: if you really want to be righteous, you’ve got to choose to put away murderous thoughts and open your heart to someone who wants to kill you (none of this “kill the flea-ridden Islamopithecines” business). You’ve got to choose to love your spouse through and through even if she’s got a wandering eye. You’ve got to be willing to give your possessions to somebody who asks for them from you and doesn’t give you a single thing in return.

            Generosity and love in spirit AND in practice beyond mere sheeplike compliance with commandments, even toward people who don’t act that way toward you, is the context of Matthew 5, from the beatitudes on down. That’s why, in the “context” you’ve been whining about, Fitzer’s got it exactly right.

            To reduce this passage to “don’t retaliate, plain and simple” is to profoundly misunderstand and trivialize the larger message of Matthew 5. It’s to wholly miss the point.

  • Ziggy Zoggy

    Wow. Not a single one of you anti-Christian bigots has the minimal sized balls to admit that you hate Christianity and Christians. Why am I not surprised?

    I’m still waiting to read what it is about islam and its 1400 year legacy of of Imperialism, genocide, murderous homophobia, murderous misogyny, rapacious slavery, terrorism and willful ignorance that you moonbat tard boys admire so much.

    Hmm?

    Your unsubstantiated caricatures of Christians are the stock in trade slander of left-wing automatons, but not a single one of you has confessed to what they admire about the vile practices of islam.

    Typical moonbats. Full of bile and hatred against decent people, but quick to bend over backwares to defend fellow hatemongers. Scum is as scum does.

    • ReMarker

      “Fundamentalism” and a religion’s claim that their holy scriptures ie. Bible, Koran, are “inerrant” and the ONLY true word of God, is the problem this moonbat (me) has with religion. My beliefs are not restricted to Christian fundamentalists, they include all fundamentalistic nonsense, including Islamic fundamentalists.

      Wikipedia’s explaination of “The fundamentalism phenomenon” is:

      For religious fundamentalists, sacred scripture is considered the authentic and authoritative word of their religion’s god or gods. This does not necessarily require that all portions of scripture be interpreted literally rather than allegorically or metaphorically – for example, see the distinction in Christian thought between Biblical infallibility, Biblical inerrancy and Biblical literalism. Fundamentalist beliefs depend on the twin doctrines that their god or gods articulated their will clearly to prophets, and that followers also have an accurate and reliable record of that revelation.

      Since a religion’s scripture is considered the word of its god or gods, fundamentalists believe that no person is right to change it or disagree with it. Within that though, there are many differences between different fundamentalists. For example, many Christian fundamentalists believe in free will, that every person is able to make their own choices, but with consequence. The appeal of this point of view is its simplicity: every person can do what they like, as much as they are able, but their god or gods will bring those who disobey without repentance (“turning away from sin”) to justice. This is made clear by the commands of Jesus in the New Testament concerning any kind of revenge (“Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord” for one). The Judaist belief is similar, but they do not believe that it is wrong to take vengeance. The fundamentalist insistence on strict observation of religious laws may lead to an accusation of legalism in addition to exclusivism in the interpretation of metaphysical beliefs.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism

      What is it about fundamentalistic Christianity that their 2000+ “year legacy of Imperialism, genocide, murderous homophobia, murderous misogyny, rapacious slavery, terrorism and willful ignorance that you, Z.Z. admire so much”?

      Notice: Moonbat tard boys was replaced with “Z.Z.” in the above Z.Z. quote taken from Z.Z.’s post.

      Christian atrocities: http://www.burningcross.net/crusades/christian-missionary-atrocities.html
      http://www.burningcross.net/
      http://www.atheistnexus.org/profiles/blogs/religious-atrocities-history

      Islamic atrocities:
      http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/moghal_atro.html

      Religious atrocities:
      http://www.skeptically.org/enlightenment/id7.html

    • “moonbat tard boys”? Is that phrase from the Gospels or from Revelations?

      I was trying to give Christians a chance to defy negative characterizations of them, by giving them the opportunity to practice what Jesus actually preached.

      If you won’t follow Jesus, Z.Z., why are you so defensive about Christianity?

      Still, after huge numbers of Christians have witnessed my request, not a single one has followed the commandment of Jesus in the book of Matthew. They abandon Jesus when it requires a little sacrifice, the equivalent of less than two hours’ work at minimum wage.

      • ReMarker

        Fitzy, I replied to Z.Z.’s comment and acknowledged that I am a moonbat ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbat ), but pointed out “the bile and hatred against decent people, but quick to bend over ‘backwares’ to defend fellow hatemongers”, he (Z.Z.) accuses me of (even if it were true) is nowhere close to the (Z.Z.’s words) “legacy of of Imperialism, genocide, murderous homophobia, murderous misogyny, rapacious slavery, terrorism and willful ignorance” visited on people by Christian, Muslem, and religious fundamentalists. I included links to websites that helped make my point.

        Googling Christian, Islamic, and/or religious atrocities helped me find those links.

        Maybe WordPress accidently grabbed another one of my comments.

    • Jim

      Gee, maybe we don’t say we hate Christians because we don’t hate Christians.

      If you haven’t found our criticisms of fundamentalist Islam, then you haven’t been looking very hard.

  • GG

    Hi, just happen to see this. I’m for Christianity and Jesus so I have to jump in. We Christians don’t hate anybody either, (at least TRUE Christians) but remember WE ARE NOT PERFECT, the Bible acknowledges this truth, it says we are made perfect GRADUALLY through the works of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
    It is dishonest to provoke someone to wrath and then demand that person to be “perfect” or to follow a certain doctrine without flaw. Even God says to parents “don’t provoke your sons and daughters to wrath…”
    Listen, there are some “difficult” passages, Matt 5:39 and similar.
    As my Christian brother said, these passages ARE NOT and should not be a motive for people to pretend or intend to take advantage of us Christians, as the spiritual knowledge is therein, but is not accessible to everyone, only to those in fellowship with the Holy Spirit.
    That I should be a puppet of iniquitous people, and do whatever they wish, defeats the purpose of Christ for mankind. In other words, Jesus didn’t say “do whatever any evil person tells you, and suffer anything they want to punish you with, and then ask for more…” that’s just plain stupid and neophyte. That would be sadism or masochism, perverted practices. The Lord Jesus is not a god of torture or pain, He is a God of Love, Power and a sound mind as the Bible says.
    That passage illustrates using an “extreme model example” that, we outta be pious, gentile and merciful with the poor, the needy and the humble. Another similar passage that is not meant to be interpreted literally is Luke 14:26 “”If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother,…etc does this mean you have to literally HATE YOUR PARENTS and WIFE, etc? Of course NOT, if you do understand these verses literally then it means you are NOT apt to read the Bible, you need to have someone who has spiritual connection with God interpret it for you, as this is the only way you can interpret it correctly. I don’t know much about Chemistry, but I could take an advanced book on the subject and prepare a certain medicine formula to my best understanding. Would you trust that medicine to be correctly formulated?
    The Bible is a spiritual book. You need a special light to be able to decipher it. The light is generated by someone called The Holy Spirit. Without it, you just read words and things you will not understand, it will not reveal itself to you, and then you will say it’s just foolishness and nonsense because it doesn’t “work” for you and your limited understanding. The Bible says that human wisdom is foolishness with God (1 COR 3:19), so He is re-paying your audacity of trying to degrade the Word of God.

    • Jim

      I have a Glo-Worm. Does that kind of light count?

      GG’s exception to the Bible meaning what it says — that you just won’t understand it until you sign on the dotted line — is completely waterproof. If you don’t see it as consistent, then you’re just not spiritual enough, and the test of being spiritual enough is seeing it as consistent.

      You surely have the right to feel the way you do, but you’re not going to convince me with the kind of thinking that takes its conclusion as a justification for itself.

  • GG

    If you don’t accept the fact that The Holy Bible is a spiritual book, which requires special treatment to be able to understand it, what can I say. That one key feature is primordial to the issue. When you say “consistent” I would understand that the Bible doesn’t contradict itself, which is the case. But then again, it is the heart of the issue itself, that we are talking about. You are implying that the Bible contradicts itself which is precisely why you are wrong, because YOU THINK such is the case. But (with due respect) you are a neophyte in the subject, and hence not qualified to judge the Scripture. Because you don’t meet the requirements already mentioned by an initiate. This is not a book written from the source of a human mind, therefore you have to abide with a different rule set. The Scripture prophesied the coming of Christ many centuries before He came as a human. Take the book of Isaiah, etc. There are over 100 fulfilled prophesies about Jesuschrist. If that doesn’t convince you, which is a hard fact, what can do?
    It can and has been proven mathematically the scarce possibility of even a few of these prophesies, even more than one could be fulfilled by an individual. Think about it, what kind of argument are you using to debate 3000 Years of fulfilled prophesy? Are you smarter than that?

  • GG

    If Jesus had implied that we should give away all our goods to anyone who asks, all Christians would be homeless. Since Jesus is not a god of stupidity, by simple conclusion, this premise cannot hold. If He had meant for us to tolerate physical abuse deliberately, (literally turn the other cheek…)this could prove Jesus was impious and mean and could not be our Saviour for the Scripture says “The Good Shepherd gives His life for His sheep…” but a strange shepherd would allow the wolfs to eat them….And you know what, HE MEANT WHAT HE PREACHED, He DID give away His life for us. He did say though ; I AM slow to anger and merciful, and He also said “be Holy as I AM Holy…” so we have to be tolerant, patient an merciful among other things but He also said we should stand firm against lies and iniquity so, we cannot be silent to please wicked men, say Amen to that.

    • Jim

      Well, now, GG, you’re using a different standard:

      if what Jesus said seems stupid to you, then it must mean something else, because Jesus isn’t stupid.

      That’s a completely different standard for evaluating the Bible than you articulated yesterday, one based on the foundation of what you personally think is stupid or not. Jesus’ words either should be taken literally, or not, based on whether you think the words Jesus spoke sound stupid if taken literally? Why not just write the Gospel According to Me?

      As I wrote before, you of course have the perfect right to use this as a basis for your personal life, and you’re welcome to express it here to others. But as a matter of feedback, I’ll let you know that the whole “the Bible means what it says except for the parts that sound stupid to me” isn’t very authoritative or convincing, at least to me.

  • Kevin

    WOW.. just wow. I missed this before as well.

    ZZ is really out there. you can see the spittle flecs on the posts he makes.

    IF reading a book full of wild tales and hit or miss advice, while adapting a world-view written for goat-herders in the desert under the boots of the Romans into a modern one, gives you a warm fuzzy feeling and helps you go about your day, well that is your delusion and you are welcome to it.

    If in the pursuit of that feeling you are compelled to denounce, insult and force others to agree to your nonsense ideas, and, impose rules on us based on your irrational beliefs, when then no thanks.

    You are a theocrat. I don’t like theocrats. That’s different from not liking xtians.

  • GG

    Sir, I’m not using a different standard, I was just explaining in common words why that passage wouldn’t make sense to the common folk if it was interpreted “literally”. But let me tell you all Scripture makes perfect sense to the average person once you get the “rhema word”, once it hits your spirit.
    It’s like saying ;hey, this is so simple even an average human can understand, and still makes sense. In other words, because I (had) used a certain spiritual discernment to conclude what i had said, doesn’t mean this particular conclusion is against “common human sense”, I’m illustrating the scenario so anyone with an average intelligence can agree. But yes, there are many anecdotes, principles and stories in The Bible that cannot be understood nor believed in using common (human) sense, what shall we do with those passages? I told you how to read them, (Holy Spirit). As a parallel example to this: let’s suppose a Wicca witch needs to go “in trance”, get naked and hop on a broom, to discern or receive certain stuff from the devil, that would be an analogy. I cannot have that knowledge (of the witch) because I have no communion with those dark forces. (I know they say they don’t believe in the devil, etc. but that doesn’t make the devil non-existent, etc).
    Now about “wild stories” as you said, yes, some are more than wild, that’s why it won’t make sense to you and that’s why you should keep you tiny nose off this Book and stop trying to make it Human-Logical-Approved. I’ve said it many times but you don’t seem get what’s the heart of the issue : it is not a human-originated book. Don’t take it against me, I’m not the author. If this stuff wasn’t important it would be long gone.
    Irrational ideas? well yes, the Bible says

    1 Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS”;

    “wise men” and their thoughts are a joke for God

    And also, this wasn’t written for the Jews only, ultimately Colossians 3:11 says : Here there is no Greek or Jew, … etc. Jesus canceled racism, gender-ism, regionalism, social classes, etc. No one is taller at the foot of the Cross, we all have to bow down.
    Amen? Praise God.

    • Jim

      I have a really big nose, but thanks for the compliment.

      If the standard for understanding the Bible is leaving my brain at the doorstep, I’m just not going there. In my experience, sales representatives who tell me to stop thinking and just ________ just aren’t to be trusted.

      • GG

        Jim, I´ve heard big noses are an indicator of intelligence, no joke. I will assume you are above average IQ. Just a man in his bright logical mind. Nothing wrong with that. Actually, intelligence is a gift similar to all others, that God has granted us for good use.
        Prov1:5 says
        “A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels..
        1:7
        “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge : but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

        Intelligence should help you understand that, not all fields of human knowledge and/or disciplines can be tackled with the same strategy. Not all subjects resolve using conventional Philosophy, Logic and Human knowledge as we have it so far because, it is limited. Using mathematics though, is one of the most accurate methodologies to determine if some theory is right or wrong. Calculus of Probabilities and Statistics can predict almost anything, when used in conjunction with the different human disciplines such as Geology, Astronomy, etc. Using these modern Math theorems and newest technology, scientist have proved correct : the Christmas Star of Bethlehem, (that guided the Magi), The Great Flood (Noa’s Story), which was always thought as a crazy impossible story, the common parenthood that human race comes from (mother Eve), and many more that escape my memory and many more that are being cooked right now. Scientists and wise men throughout history, have been re-discovering Biblical truths, and have been extending an “I’m sorry I was wrong” apology as time goes on. Things that conventional “science” always rejected from the Bible thinking it was nonsense.
        I by no means say I am close to perfect or anything alike. Just make that clear, I feel no superior to anyone. My obligation is only to preach the truth and I have received it as a “rhema word” which can be defined as “I know that I know”…Not that I like it necessarily, it is easier to chose to believe that God doesn’t exist, etc. Or that the Bible is contradictory or silly, get “mad” with God, etc. But the truth is one, and no matter what I think it won’t change. Every human KNOWS DEEP INSIDE what’s right, what’s wrong and that he/she will be accountable for their actions before a superior being. But some people chose to ignore that warning.
        If you really want to understand the Bible, I gave you a hint of how to do it. If you are unbiased and really want to go to the end of the matter and chose to put your ego down and say : hey, what have I to loose?, I will try what they say. “I’ll pray and talk to God and, and after I have sincerely engaged with Him, nothing changes in me, if He doesn’t talk to me, then I’ll quit and return to my human resources to solve this”. But as I said, PRIDE is and was the ULTIMATE SIN before God. (Satan’s initial sin, that cost him to be cast down, out of heaven, he was the main musician praising God up there, he lost his job…)You HAVE TO PUT IT DOWN, renounce it, recant all ego then you will be ready, give Him your life in The Name of Jesus and then, He will speak to you. You will probably won’t be a Bible expert in one day but you will see things as they start to clear up. You will start to understand many thing in the Bible that are now dark, nonsense and absurd.
        And No, you don’t have to leave your brain at the doorstep, being in fellowship with God does not imply to be a ‘dim wit’. Al the contrary, you will have a sharp brain, better than you have now, because now you will have not only intelligence but UNDERSTANDING and WISDOM.

        You are a potentially powerful man in the Lord, He has great things in store for you. May The Lord shine His light of wisdom and knowledge over you, is my prayer in Jesus Name, The name above All names. I’ll say Amen to that.

        • Jim

          How do you know I haven’t tried that?

          • GG

            ” But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul”. [Deuteronomy 4:29]

            “Seek the Lord while he may be found.”Isiah 55
            Listen Friends:
            There will come a time, at the End of The Age of the Dispensation of Grace called End Times, in which, The Holy Spirit will be GONE from Earth. Isn’t that scary? This will happen after The Rapture of The Church, Then : God will NO LONGER ANSWER PRAYERS (some Scholars say), precisely because GRACE is OVER.
            The Holy Spirit will no longer be here because He is taking care of His Church, once The Church is gone, once we are all aboard, the Captain will also leave, leaving behind a dying decadent rotting putrescent condemned doomed evil perverse world with virtually no hope….awaiting heavy judgment, first comes the asteroid to hit earth, then famine, then oceans contaminated, then green zones burned, then pestilence and plagues, then…oh well read your Bible if you are curios.

            The curtain Vail will close again. The Bible suggests in this regard that; even then, you can still be saved (from hell) but the price will be dearly payed….you will have to have your head guillotined, among other amenities….

            And I can’t imagine someone who accepts Christ under those circumstances…If people don’t accept Him today WITH NO PENALTIES, will they accept him then, when a heavy price will need to be paid, and besides, who do you think will preach to you? all good people will be gone, who will lead you to prayer?…. JUST THINK

            • GG

              And furthermore, we are virtually already there, almost in Rapture. All prophesies have been fulfilled, expect some very few ones, these are the ones for endtimes, but since the Bible has very precise signs about these years, we can say, most events required to start the Endtimes Period are here, are happening right now or just hapened in recent years, so therefore, it can happen at anytime…
              Another sad reality is, the New Remnant, (NEWborn Church, Ruptured Church) will be very small….) so the majority of so-called Christians won’t be included. Some say in the order of .01% of the world population, that is, 10% of 10%.
              Why? well, many people claim to be Christians but in reality, they were never born-again, they deceived themselves, said to accept Jesuschrist but just repeated words without sincerity, never had a real relationship with God and therefore, are not counted as children of God, they are just posers.
              Only authentic Born-Again will be taken to Heaven, the motherland.
              Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

              Haleluyah! Jesus is coming

              Let’s hear an AMEN!

  • GG

    retaking your comment with another approach :

    I said : what Jesus said seems stupid (to you, the average non-convert), because that’s the way you express what you understand, I never said it seems stupid to me. I say it must seem that way to you, that is why you are trying to mock and rip off Christians asking money based in a misunderstood Bible verse. It’s like : oh, your Bible says this, so do it. But the truth is : it doesn’t say what you think.
    And it Is Stupid to understand it the worldly way because it would clearly contradict other Biblical statements.
    The Bible warns us against predators, starting with the devil who is pictured as a “roaring lion”. The heathen, who usually are demon-possessed (without knowing it) act upon the chief demon in them, who forces them to commit a certain sin. That is why Jesus told the pharisees :
    John 8:44 your father is the devil and the will of your father you want to do…
    Some people mock Christianity, God, Jesus and the Bible because the works of their (spiritual) father they want to do. I rebuke that is the name of Jesus.
    I would exhort to to renounce the devil, resist him and he will flea, in the name of Jesus..
    Amen?

  • Jon

    GG you can’t argue with stupidity and ignorance, move on to people who are receptive of the gospel, all the people here are propobibly going to hell any way unless teh holy sprite changes their heart, so don’t waste your breath.

    • I’m being receptive of the gospel. The gospel says to give what’s asked for. I asked. It seems that you and GG are the ones who are denying the teachings of Jesus, Jon.

      Why do so many so-called Christians abandon their Christianity just to save themselves ten dollars?

      Selling out Jesus for the price of 3 gallons of gasoline, huh Jon?

      • GG

        you’re not being receptive to the Gospel, you’re just trying to “test” Christians and Christianity and what you “think” this Biblical verse says, but as I explained before, that is NOT the meaning. Nobody is “selling Jesus” your “test” is not only hilarious but nonsense and downright ridiculous and dim-witted.
        I’ll give you a challenge ; go next Sunday to a gas station with a gallon bottle. Ask people who arrive to load gas : ” if they can cooperate with gas money to go to church, or load some gasoline on your bottle”. See what happens. You will get much more than one full gallon…There’s Jesus giving you more than $10 for His Gospel. Actually, a friend of mine went through that situation, probably not very correct to do but, it is serving now to re-stuff your words back to your mouth with a testimony that defeats your vociferous slanderous tounge.

        • So. GG. you’re saying that I should LIE? Is Jesus the King of Lies now? What a twisted belief you have that denies the simple words that are ascribed to Jesus, but claiming that the Bible would more likely encourage Christians to practice fraud on each other than share.

          • GG

            that wouldn’t even be a lie, just an experiment in pro of the Gospel. your words :
            “but claiming that the Bible would more likely encourage Christians to practice fraud on each other than share.”
            Ans : This is not directed to Christians but to you, nor am I saying the Bible tells you to do it.
            Since you don’t respect the Bible what do you care anyway?
            So, did you do it or not?
            I suppose you didn’t….right?
            Well good thing is, now everyone here knows you’re a big mouthed little coward, I say it in a good way..
            You were simply too proud, arrogant, coward and lazy….most of these are capital Sins….I see you’re headed to Hell, the big diablo has a big paddle down there (in Hell) for you that’s for sure…and by the way, you can give him also what you have for him, gifts interchange haha, enjoy friend

            • Jim

              It would be a lie for F.G. to do that, it wouldn’t be an honest representation, and furthermore, it wouldn’t be a reasonable test of the standard set by the Jesus character in the Bible. Your test is all about asking people for money under the false pretense that you’re headed to church; in that circumstance, people are being asked to give money to further some religious effort with which they are in sympathy. They’re being asked to give to a cause with which they agree. The Jesus character asks more than that: to give money to a person who asks, without regard for what that person intends to do with the money.

              You’ve come up with a lame, weak tea test that requires someone to be a liar. No wonder F.G. isn’t taking you up on it.

      • GG

        oh! and Fitzer, an extra advice : take a 5 Gallon can instead of the 1-Gallon. You will collect more gasoline. Just see what happens. Some will give you cash, some will load gasoline directly. If you chicken out and don’t want to take the challenge, all the Forum will know what kind of cheap lying buffoon goose you are, you are not standing firm to your own “test” which now entails a challenge from the Christians to you. The issue is the same “will the Gospel be worth $10 ?” I must say my friend did go through that situation and he was really going to church and didn’t work that week, just so you know this is not a made-up story. Please come back with results of what happened on Sunday, it won’t take you but a short time. And we expect honesty as you imply you are honest and ethical, don’t try to insult our intelligence coming up with a silly nonsense argument, the challenge is for real, clear and concise. The Lord is my shepherd…Amen

      • Jim

        That’s because GG thinks Jesus would have to be stupid to mean what he said. Which is why GG bases GG’s Christianity on what GG thinks is a good idea in the Bible. I know you say you’re not doing that, GG, putting some flowery language around it, but if you’re sincere, please examine what you’re doing. In the gospels Jesus expends a great deal of energy expressing a message of radical antimaterialism.

    • GG

      Jon, first let me say God Bless you brother. And in regards to these people, you are probably right but, for some reason, The Lord directed me here, so here i am. Probably not for long but, hey, we’re fighting the good fight as Paul The Apostle said, so, just be a bit patient and good things can happen in the Kingdom manifested here. Let’s not deliver them onto Satan as of yet, there could be hope, let’s say Amen.

    • Jim

      Holy Sprite? Why didn’t anyone tell me about the Holy Sprite? Man, I love sprite! Do I get to drink it during church service? Sign me up! ;)

  • Jon

    Fitzer tell the devil hello when yuou get their.

  • Jacob

    Jon,
    No one is receptive of the Gospel until they accept Christ as Savior. We all faught it. We are not given an out clause in Scripture… Also, wishing someone well on the way to Hell is wrong. You know what Hell is and what it means, you should wish that on no one. Does F.G. deserve it? Yes, but no more so then I. Dont give up because the fight is hard…

  • TO ALL OF YOU WHO, THOUGH MEANING WELL IN YOUR DEBATE TO PERSUADE F.G. TO SEE YOUR POINTS, YOU HAVE MISSED AN IMPORTANT POINT. READ ROMANS 14 AND TITUS 3.

    Book of Romans 14:1-23 – The Weak and the Strong

    1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
    5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
    ” ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
    ‘every knee will bow before me;
    every tongue will confess to God.’

    “F86 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no foodF87 is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

    Book of Titus 3:1-15 Doing What is Good

    1Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men. 3At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone. 9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

  • @F.G. Check your paypal account.

    For the rest of you engaged in this “campaign” – – –

    Book of Colossians 2:1-23 –

    1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

    Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ

    6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
    8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
    9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,F7 not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
    13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,F8 God made youF9 alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.F10
    16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
    20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21″Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

    Phillipians 3:17-21

    17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation F13 is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Romans 8:5-14

    5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
    9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
    12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation–but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

  • There is only one Gospel. The commandments are not the Gospel. The Beattitudes are not the Gospel. The Gospel is this: God is Holy and Righteous. Because of man’s sinful nature (by the rebellion of Adam) man is condemned to Hell. Because of the Heavenly Father’s Grace and Mercy toward man, he send his son, Jesus Christ (the 2nd Adam) to bear our punishment by sacrificing his life in death on the cross, and his innocent and sinless blood paid the price to redeem man from the condemnation he has coming. If any man will surrender to Christ, believing that man is a sinner and that Christ is the Son of God who has come to be man’s savior, and repent of sins sins and follow Christ he may have eternal life. That is the Gospel.

    Once we receive the Gospel and are Born-again the Holy Spirit comes in to our lives and begins to comfort, teach, convict, and guide us in our growing love of Christ.

    Everything else is about growing in faith, being obedient, and loving our neighbors as Chrst would have us to do. Everything is about sanctification, stewardship, discipleship, and evangelism.

    May you grow to know the Jesus Christ as both Savior and Lord. For if he is your savior, then he must be your Lord.

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