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Hutaree Group Planned Secession To Fight Non-Christians

The word of a series of FBI raids in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois first came on the Hutaree web site, Hutaree.com. A woman in the Hutaree community wrote, “They were catching others as they came to their rallying points, they broke into homes and took children and used the tasers on wives, my son who is 12 and I got out by crawling through the creeks behind our house. My husband and others are taken.”

Arrest warrants were carried, but are sealed, meaning that no one knows right now what the imprisoned Hutaree members are being accused of. There are some rumors that the Hutaree prisoners are suspected of making pipe bombs, but that’s not clear.

You may be asking yourself at this point, what is all this talk of Hutaree? What’s a Hutaree? According to the members of Hutaree, a Hutaree is a “christian warrior”. A Hutaree explains, “We are to be Christian soldiers. As King David had mighty men so does the King of glory have His mighty men.”

The Hutarees’ online forum is still up at this hour, although many parts of the forum require a keyword to enter. In the public parts of the forum, Hutaree members make frequent comments about things that they can’t say because the government may be listening in, but here’s what we can gather about the Hutarees’ agenda:

  • The Hutarees used the Bible to justify a mission of religious violence in the belief that the Hutarees would eventually be in a military conflict against the AntiChrist and the AntiChrist’s human followers. The motto of the Hutarees is “Preparing for the end time battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive”.

    The End Times are a part of fundamentalist Christian mythology, a time in the future when it is believed that Satan will attempt to rule the Earth, with the best Christian believers instantly raptured into God’s presence, with the less worthy left behind to choose sides between Satan and Jesus. Why did the Hutarees believe that they would be left behind to fight and kill those who refused to join with Jesus? That’s not clear. The Hutarees’ language makes plain their belief that the End Times will come soon, however.

    One Hutaree writes, “This and similar Christian groups who believe in the armour of God will be the only groups to prevail in the soon coming crisis.” Another states, “If we are correct then we are witnessing the birth of the NWO and the rise of the Anti-Christ.”

    The Hutarees quote lines from the Bible that seem to be encouraging violence. From the Gospel of Luke: “He who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.” From the Gospel of John: “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

  • The battle the Hutarees have been preparing for is not metaphorical. They mean to fire their guns, and kill people in the name of Jesus.

    One Hutaree explains his belief in the logic of the Apocalypse, hoping for enough death and destruction to bring about a more pure society. “Enough people and things must be destroyed so that the system may start back over and inflate to maximum potential again. This time around though I see the potential of a long drawn out mad max type scenario, then after years of small scale fighting things will slowly turn back to civilization to start the process again. In doing so the same destruction of people and things will happen. Yes, the whole world at war, but just dragged out without any distinguishable side.”

    The Hutarees don’t believe in the idea of Jesus being a pacifist. One Hutaree writes, “I have always thought of Christ as more of a militant and I am glad to have found some kindred souls.”

    the things you kill withOne section of the Hutaree.com forum is devoted especially to “weapons”. There’s no ambiguity about the intended use of these weapons. They’re not deterrence. The weapons aren’t appreciated as exemplars of American craftsmanship. The subtitle of this part of the forum is “the things you kill with”.

  • Hutarees look forward to the opportunity to pick up their guns and kill people. The opportunity to kill non-Christians is anticipated with zeal. One Hutaree enthusiastically writes, “God has Promised to execute vengeance of eternal fire against ungodly men!… The Great Day of His Wrath is come.”

    Hutarees fear fighting because they fear death, not because they wish to avoid killing non-Christians. One Hutaree explains, “None of us really want to fight and possibly die,,but with GOD and JESUS on our side, whats to fear? So let’s make sure our soul’s are ready for war BEFORE we get into this mess! I will agree 100% with Zulif Pastor Ruektoen, REPENT,REPENT, and death will not have any hold on you, then will we be the fighting force, that the devil worshipping new world order don’t want to have to meet up with, for VICTORY is OURS through Christ JESUS!!!!!!!!!!”

    How does a Christian prepare the soul for war, I wonder? Is there a Hutaree religious ceremony for this?

  • The Hutaree’s idea of the enemy has a great deal of overlap with the enemy identified by the Tea Party movement: A mysterious New World Order that is being created by big government liberals. The Hutarees also share with the Tea Party the idea that current political discontent is a repetition of the historical pattern of the American revolution of 1776. One writes, “I’ve had this feeling that I havn’t been able to shake, and it is all adding up now (THE GOV. IS NOT OUR DADDY) just like 200 years ago I think its time again.”
  • Hutarees have been holding training sessions in how they’ll use their guns. They like to pose with guns, while they’re being filmed running around out in the woods, with smoke canisters fuming for dramatic effect. It’s kind of like playing soldier for them.

    The training evidently was not very successful. The FBI had the Hutarees completely outgunned and outmaneuvered. The supposedly safe meetup locations they had arranged were easy for the FBI to find. The Hutarees didn’t have anywhere they could hide, and didn’t have the werewithal to put up an armed resistance.

    The Hutarees did, however, have one fellow they linked to who had a two-part video instruction about how to lay low if Satan’s bad guys come after you. It’s entitled, ITEOTWAWKI – It’s The End Of The World As We Know It. Mostly, this video instructor warns people about things like not eating too many MREs (meals ready to eat), because they’ll give a person constipation.

  • The Hutarees imagined that they had created a new Christian republic, seceding from the USA. This Colonial Christian Republic was not subject, in their minds, to any of the laws of the United States. Citizens of the Colonial Christian Republic could just go around following what they believed the laws of God to be, without any regard to anything else. A Hutaree wrote, “We do not follow ANY county or state lines, We are an Independent unit, subject to GOD’s laws and guided by the testimony of JESUS!!!!!!”

    The Colonial Christian Republic even had a sort of uniform for its Hutaree Army, including the CCR uniform patch you see here.

  • The Hutarees were popular among their ideological set of militant Christian Americans, and people from across the USA were attempting to establish Hutaree-affiliated groups. The Hutaree forums contained messages from people in Virginia, California, New York, and Kentucky seeking guidance in joining and spreading the Hutarees.

    The Hutarees encouraged this activites, but did not seek to control these affiliated Christian militant groups, imitating the Al Quaeda model of a decentralized group identity without any central authority that could be easily eliminated. A Hutaree wrote to someone seeking to establish a new Hutaree cell, “We have the Colonial Christian Republic,,this was set up for people to join as allies with us,,this way you get to keep your own unique way of doing things.”

    Look for in the next couple days:

    – Will other Hutarees be arrested in other states?
    – Will a connection between the Hutarees and local Tea Party activism be found?
    – What other groups like the Hutarees are already operating, and how similar are they?

  • 87 comments to Hutaree Group Planned Secession To Fight Non-Christians

    • Montana

      Since their inception the Teaparty crowd (not a movement since they do have the numbers or clout) have been “haters not debaters”. In my opinion this is what the small portions of the republican party of “birthers, baggers and blowhards” have brought you. They are good at “Follow the Leader” of their dullard leaders, they listen to Beck, Hedgecock, Hannity, O’Reilly, Rush and Savage and the rest of the Blowhards. Are you surprise at what they do when you know what they think? The world is complicated and most republicans (Hamiliton, Lincoln, Roosevelt) believe that we should use government a little to increase social mobility, now its about dancing around the claim of government is the problem. The sainted Reagan passed the biggest tax increase in American history and as a result federal employment increased, but facts are lost when mired in mysticism and superstition. Although some republicans are trying to distant themselves from this fringe most of them are just going along and fanning the flames.

      • mr. parker

        The tea part movement is in no way affiliated with this. We have no central organization. Our clout will be found out in November. The will of the people will not be denied.

        • Cherryl

          I might have been a Tea Bagger if not for having a clear mind. As a long-time Republican I count myself as a steadfast member of the Coffee Party. Mindless flash mobs like the Tea Baggers are what the rest of us are really arming ourselves against. You’ll be seeing more strong coffee than weak tea at the polls in November, guaranteed.

    • Tom

      This is truly mindboggling. It’s like viewing the Buddha as a ninja warrior, or Ghandi with a bazooka. i mean WTF? Jesus was a man of peace according to every bible i’ve ever read (yeah, he tossed the money changers out of the temple, but he didn’t attack the Romans and preached meekness, turning the other cheek and FORGIVENESS). How demented these people are indicates how far off the rails we’re going as a nation.

      i don’t know about rounding them up though – they haven’t done anything wrong yet, have they? What’s this new policy called, preventive imprisonment, pre-emptive incarceration?

      • We’ll find out today when the criminal charges against them are made public

      • Look – I don’t want to lend credence to the Hutaree’s; generally groups like this tend to give broader Christianity a bad rap.

        But your image of Jesus as some meek and mild peacenik hippie is a very incomplete image of Jesus.

        Yes – Jesus taught (and in fact is THE way to) forgiveness. And, notably, when he was arrested – knowing full well that torture & crucifixion lay before him – he submitted to that and even made Peter, his disciple, put away a sword he drew against the Roman soldiers. But He didn’t do this in some Ghandi-esque/ahimsa-esque way. He did this because He was following the will of His Father.

        There is another side to Jesus – a side which demands justice, which is coming and is too often forgotten:

        I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one but he himself knows. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:11-16 NIV)

        Make no mistake. Jesus is no wussy hippie.

        • outtathere

          John said that, and he was high of his rocker when he did.

        • outtathere

          John said that, and he was high off his rocker when he did. There is no Jesus coming back, and you will go to your grave with that fact just the same as billions before you. Actually, Jesus was a peacenick. That’s all he preached. At his angriest, he turned over some tables- tables belonging to soulless succubi who couldn’t even resist turning holy places into marketing opportunities. Sounds like the church Josh and I grew up in, incidentally. You can point to all the vindictive scriptures you want to, but at the end of the day, Jesus didn’t say any of it- no, that is the work of his screwy fan club.

    • WOW

      Now they have done nothing wrong. It has not been proven that they have planned an offensive against the Muslim community in Detroit or any other city for that matter. This was a major mistake for the Obama administration because it just adds proof to the belief that it is socialist->yielding communist because of the fact that these people were raided BASED ON FREE SPEECH. The last time I looked it was not against the law to get a bunch of guys together and form a group and play army. The last time I looked we are still the United States of America PROTECTED by the US Constitution with it’s Bill of Rights. NOW – you see why these guys feel like they need to protect themselves against the scourge of the planet – because it has become clear to them that the government is not going to.

      • Jim

        Do you have a source for these claims, “Wow?” It doesn’t appear that, at this time, the constitutionally appropriate warrants have been unsealed. They apparently will be unsealed later this morning. How would you know, then, what the reason for the arrests are? How would you know the basis for probable cause?

        If you have a secret source, please share it. Otherwise, I’m inclined to see what the actual warrants say when they become available later today.

    • Thomas

      If in fact what we read is all that these guys have done then may God help us all. This is America people and although I may not agree with Hutaree’s way of thinking they still have a right to express themselves without fear of arrest. Who will be next?

    • Mark

      These people have been in fact been denied at least 3 constitutional rights. The Right to practice a faith any way they wish. The right to assemble. The right to keep and bear arms. The right to free speech. You may not agree with their take on belief, but I am sure you all have some fuzzy opinions of your own.Should you be arrested for those. And has anyone even consisdered the possibity that they couls be right about some things. Could the arrests be some sort of pre-emptive strike against a group that poses a threat to someone in power? Our government is not beyond planting evidence if need be. Nor is it against providing agent provoceteurs. It seems strange that we would waste our time arresting people with no known criminal backgrounds as of yet, while we have a clear and present danger in this country from Islamic terrorism from within and without.

      • Jim

        So you’ve clearly seen the probable cause warrants, then, Mark. You know what the charges are. You know that they’re being arrested on charges of 1. Being Religious, 2. Assembling, and 3. Having Weapons.

        Oh, good! It’s great to run into someone who is well-informed. Post me the link to the warrants that show those are the criminal charges, then.

        I’m waiting for it, Mark…

      • Mark, the religious “faith” of the Hutarees involves the belief that people like me are aligned with demons, and must eventually be shot. Should they be allowed to shoot me, then?

      • Mark, the indictments are in, and they include conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction and the murder of police officers. Those alleged crimes were motivated by the Hutaree version of Christianity. Should they have been allowed to complete the plots, then, in order to avoid mussing up their “right to practice a faith any way they wish”?

      • PartyNot

        Mark send me a e-mail about doing harm to the president because it’s your religious right
        And I’ll send it to the secret service, they’ll come and talk to them and you can claim your being picked on like Gods warriors

    • Ned Tugent

      These IDIOTS are TERRORISTS. They are religious extremeists, just like the 9/11 terrorists. They want death to the non-believers, too. I say give them their own island somewhere. In six months or less, problem solved.

      • I say give them their legal rights – the same legal rights that the right wingers want to take away from other people. We remain free by allowing all, even murderous Christian terrorists, equal rights under the law. Of course, that includes the right to be convicted in a court of law through the process of a fair trial.

        • Colonel Flag

          So, you’d be okay with a chapter of Hamas down the street? Or a peaceful order of the Taliban keeping to themselves in the woods near you? If so, then okay, but everyone: murderers, Ponzi schemers, and, yes, those who conspire to wage a war against our law enforcement community must be held to our country’s laws.

      • janis vogel

        shut the fuck up.when last have you knelt before the alter of our lord god.they are merely trying to protect what is our way.heathens are a blight onto this country.political correctness,my arse.you do not legislate feelings,and manners.if a person acts like a nigger,he should be called one.Jesus said,blessed are the meek,he was not referring to girly men.you can be meek,and awfully powerful at same time.dispense your might in a nice way.

        • PartyNot

          Janus Bird
          To love God in a way that is different, is OK. Do you think that there is a right way to love God and all the others are wrong, I don’t

        • Jim

          Well, hello, Ms. Ambassador! Care to share any other words that would help us see how misunderstood religious fundamentalists are?

        • Cherryl

          Jesus WAS a negro. That coffee colored skin, that wooly head, he was the classic negro man that all weak tea partiers fear, the boys that is. Your ladies on the other hand, you’d better start handing out the burkhas and institute purdah in your little Islamic enclave. The American Taliban peeks its timid head up above the bunker every now and again. Heathens and infidels can smell you a mile away.

    • Another Christian

      I believe that Hutaree has forgotten a least one important scripture in their plight,1Peter2:13-15 “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well-doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:” If you are going to stand on the Word… then you should know it! The Word says we are to submit to God’s law first and ALSO to man’s and ONLY when there is a conflict should we take a stand. As for the raids… I agree with Mark that certain inalienable rights were not respected for these people as U.S. citizens. If the government is going to start seeing the Christian faith as a threat in this country, by which we were founded, we are in sad shape.

    • joeyc

      Police, cops, pigs, what ever you want to call the scum need to be delt with accordingly. AMEN
      -trust no law enforcement they will be the end of you

      • “joeyc” who’s scum? You’re siding with people who planned to invade police homes and kill their kids in the name of Jesus? It’s the police who are scum?

        • joeyc

          hell yes, the only good cops are dead cops. they protect themselves, family, and freinds. if you do not fall in that catagory you are just one second away from a being beat or shot. i give it up to the hutaree for having some balls. get sum…….>>>>>

          • I am not a policeman, or in a policeman’s family, and I am not one second from being beat or shot. I’m not even a week or a month from that.

            Are you saying, joeyc, that the only good policeman’s children are dead policeman’s children?

            The Hutaree were planning to kill kids. Killing kids in the name of Jesus.

            • joeyc

              what Jesus wants Jesus gets and he wants em to goes to sleep well then naps for everyone

              • Jim

                And we hits the trrrrrrrrroll gong!

              • PartyNot

                Jesus wants use to love an other, Not kill one another

                • joeyc

                  yes but GOD has also asked for the murder of others in order to keep things pure
                  -sometimes even the best people have to get a little blood on their hands

                  when they come for you will you go like a sheeple or come out kicking and screaming

                  like I said pick a side and stick with it no room for anyone on the fence

                • Get over yourself

                  No one’s coming for you, kid. You’re not that important.

                • joeyc

                  but you sir are. they are coming for you………………….

                • Jim

                  yes, but “GOD” is a fictional character.

                • Jacob

                  This cant be serious… It has to be a joke.

                • Jim

                  You’ve read the Old Testament, Jacob. Joeyc is Biblically correct but morally twisted.

                • Jacob

                  But see he isnt Biblically correct even if we through out the New Testemant (which we cant). There is nothing even close to this

                • Jim

                  There’s nothing close to this in the Old Testament? Really? You want to stick to that, Jacob?

                • Jacob

                  yes, I will stick to that. There are times of killing and violence in the OT and many are much more bloody then this would have been. There are some MAJOR differances between the two though.

                • Jim

                  Jacob, above in this thread after joeyc said “yes but GOD has also asked for the murder of others in order to keep things pure
                  -sometimes even the best people have to get a little blood on their hands” you said he “he isnt Biblically correct.”

                  The Old Testament is rife with the God character asking for the murder of others in order to keep things pure, murder by the “best people.” Do you want me to cite chapter and verse?

                  I’m not saying I agree with joeyc. I’m saying joeyc’s got this God character pegged.

                • Don

                  God doesn’t ask for murder. Get your terms right. When the situation demanded, He asked for killing. There is a difference. If you don’t believe, that’s fine…just don’t throw stones.

                • Jim

                  God is a fictional character in the book called the Bible who commanded people to kill babies and other innocents. If you don’t want to call it murder because that would make you upset, then that’s your problem, not mine. Work out for yourself how to best follow a fictional deity who commands his followers to take sex slaves.

            • janis vogel

              why are you crying over children.they are one and the same.

    • Arturo

      It would be interesting to read threads like these, if in addition to one’s name, we got to see the following:

      a) highest year of successful schooling,
      b) GPA,
      c) hourly wage,
      d) number of years served in military,
      e) number of trailers lived in,
      f) number of different states lived in,
      g) number of times arrested or days spent in jail,
      h) number of family members who have been arrested or spent time in jail, and
      i) amount of days spent out of the USA.

      I would submit that clear correlations could be drawn from the quality of the logic, to the background of the individual. I would also guess that the really crazy sheisse would be beside the following answers:

      a) 11 or 12
      b) <2.0, or "What's a GPA?"
      c) minimum wage
      d) never served
      e) 4+, including current trailer
      f) born and raised in one state
      g) 3+
      h) 3+
      i) 0 days

      Idiocy is just an indictment on our underfunded school system, poor parenting, lack of beatings, and inability of society to teach certain people anything.

      • mr. parker

        How about you? Bachelor’s in fine arts, social studies? Black/gay/women’s/hispanic/”native American” or do you have some other useless major?
        Hourly wage? Probably minimum plus tips at the restaurant you work at.
        Military? Yes, you protest them whenever possible and think of what fools they are as you drink your cosmopolitan at the newest club wearing all the latest fashion.
        You don’t live in a trailer, you live in an overpriced cockroach infested apartment in a trendy neighborhood in a big city.
        I’m sure you spend a lot of time traveling but I’ll bet you’ve never been to Baghdad or Kandahar or Kuwait.
        I could go on but I won’t humiliate you any further. That might mean you’d need an extra hour at you new age therapist this week.

        Don’t put me into the position of defending these criminals. But your hate of people that don’t live in the northeast corridor or a left coast city disgusts me.

    • Arturo

      I could add (but it would be flogging a dead horse):
      a) number of 4-wheelers owned
      b) hours of wrestling watched weekly
      c) number of gun shows attended
      d) number of tractor pulls seen
      e) number of tattoos
      f) number of fist/bar-fights been in, and
      g) number of teeth missing

      • gravityzack

        My answers to question set 1:
        a)12
        b)<2.0
        c)unemployed.. last wage close to minimum wage
        d)never served
        e)1
        f)born and raised in one state (maine)
        g)0
        h)0
        i)maybe around 30 – 45

        second set of questions:
        zero to all except i've seen one tractor pull. i loved it.

        lack of beatings?? really Aturo??

        all this being said, i think that the "Huraree" are dangerous terrorists (that should be called terrorists). i do believe their arrests were justified and i believe that they deserve a fair trial like everyone else.

    • joeyc

      These boys got their minds right. Get ready to get ready. its a coming you are just to blind to see it. then its to late and you are being rounded up like the jews and off to camp you go.

      good luck son

    • joeyc

      Martial law is the imposition of military rule by military authorities over designated region(s) on an emergency basis—and often, but not necessarily, only temporarily—when the civilian government or civilian authorities fail to function effectively (e.g., maintain order and security, and provide essential services), or when there are extensive riots or protests, or when the disobedience of the law becomes wide-spread. In most cases, Military forces are deployed to quiet down the crowds, secure government buildings and other key or sensitive locations, and maintain order. Generally, military personnel replace civil authorities and perform some or all of their functions. The constitution could be suspended, and in a full-scale martial law, a high-ranking military officer could take over, or be installed, as a military governor or as the head of the government.

      your government is not your freind

      soon the truth will be revealed

      • Give me a break, joeyc. The government is what we make of it, in a democracy, and if it isn’t what we like, then we need to get organized politically, not going enforcing our individual wills with the barrel of a gun.

        Take a look at what we ordinarily write about at Irregular Times. You’ll see that we’re very serious about doing our bit to hold elected officials accountable – through legal means. Bands of 20 clumsy goofballs who think they can start a revolution by killing the children of policemen are NOT the people we need to institute reform or to show us what “the truth” is.

        • joeyc

          there has not been a fair election. they are fixed and puppets are put in power. its all a stage and they are following a script. you either see things for what they are or you stay blind and soon be a prisoner.

          good luck son

          • Well, joeyc, if it is ALL a stage, how do you know that the Hutarees are not secret government agents who are just pretending to be murderous idiots, in order to make brilliant people like you look dumb! Oh my gosh! I’ve finally seen the truth! I’m no longer blind! Thank you, joeyc! Thank you!

        • joeyc

          who is to say that years down the road they were doing the right thing. Jesus was arrested, beat, and crucified.

    • Leif Öquist

      What is a ‘Hutaree’?

      I may have a lead to the mysterious name that it seems to be much speculation about online. In the 1700s Germany was founded a religious movement named ‘Herrnhuter Brüdergemeine’. It later changed name to what is today known as the ‘Moravian Church’. In my native Sweden, this christian congregation remains under the name of ‘Evangeliska Brödraskapet’ (‘The Evangelical Brotherhood’) and its members are since the time of the group’s foundation known as ‘herrnhutare’.

      A branch of the Moravian church was established in the US in the 1700s. That may hold the explanation to how the from ‘Herrnhuter’ seemingly derivative name ‘Hutaree’ came to appear in the US. In my Swedish example, a part of the movement’s original name was transferred to name the members of the congregation and remained even after the brotherhood’s original name had become moot. Naturally, it’s easy to imagine a similar kind of etymological process taking place in the US.

      For the rest of it, the ‘Evangelical Brotherhood’ and Moravian church seems to be a peaceful christian congregation without any ties to politics, extremism or violence – thus, the militia group’s chosen name seems to have no genuine connection with its probable original source.

    • Leif Öquist

      What is a ‘Hutaree’?

      I may have a lead to the mysterious name that it seems to be much speculation about online. In the 1700s Germany was founded a religious movement named ‘Herrnhuter Brüdergemeine’. It later changed name to what is today known as the ‘Moravian Church’. In my native Sweden, this christian congregation remains under the name of ‘Evangeliska Brödraskapet’ (‘The Evangelical Brotherhood’) and its members are since the time of the group’s foundation known as ‘herrnhutare’.

      A branch of the Moravian church was established in the US in the 1700s. That may hold the explanation to how the from ‘Herrnhuter’ seemingly derivative name ‘Hutaree’ came to appear in the US. In my Swedish example, a part of the movement’s original name was transferred to name the members of the congregation and it remained even after the brotherhood had changed name. Naturally, it’s easy to imagine a similar kind of etymological process taking place in the US.

      For the rest of it, the ‘Evangelical Brotherhood’ and Moravian church seems to be a peaceful christian congregation without any ties to politics, extremism or violence – thus, the militia group’s chosen name seems to have no genuine connection with its probable original source.

    • Jacob

      No, the OT is the entrance of the Isrealities into the promised land. No situation in todays world will ever be the same… Site chapter and verse all you want. OT movement of the Isrealites and the directions they were given do not apply to Americans.

    • Eric

      These guys are a bunch of clowns! Nothing but a bunch of dorks with guns and no though process. Espically the Teotwaki Man, I could not stop laughing at this dipshit! I watched about 1min 30sec of one of his videos. I spent 8 great years in the US Army in a Combat Arms occupation and seeing this nerd made the shittiest soldier seem like Audie Murphy. (look him up if you don’t know him) I would love to meet somebody who is pro Hutaree! They stand for every wrong thing. It makes no sence. They give good Catholic people a bad name and I don’t put up with that crap. I just hope they get the max for everything.

    • Don

      Jim’s opinion is just that…an opinion. Jim also does not believe in context…and would apparently wish to engage in personal attacks rather than to use reason to argue. That is the difference between activist views and the rest. Again as I said…if you are not a believer…that’s your issue. Just don’t throw stones. If you re-read my last post…you will find an attack against atheism absent. …and as far as my faith…that is my issue, not yours to worry about.

    • Don

      Jim’s opinion is just that…an opinion. Here’s the difference between your argument and mine. The first thing you decide to do is engage in a personal attack, and make reference to my disposition (as if anything in your post could have possibly upset me). Re-read my last post. Note the lack of reference to atheism or your mental state? That is because neither atheism nor your demeanor is the issue here…nor do either concern me.
      BTW If you are such a non-believer, why would you so vehemently believe the scripture to be so absolutely true? Are you just trolling? Do you just like to argue? Now, go get a dictionary…look up murder…look up killing…look up the word context….then go re-read the scripture verses you believe to be true (making sure you understand what was going on before the verse that says “he smote them…”), and try to critically think thru the situations to see if it was murder or killing. Let us know what you found. I am sure it will be interesting.
      Lastly, my faith is none of your concern.

      • Jim

        Your faith is none of my concern so long as you don’t attempt to make me or other people live according to the standards of your faith.

        This is a group of individuals who were planning to kill for their faith, making the principles of professed faith driving said killings of central concern. If you don’t like that, take it up with the Hutaree and the multiple other individuals and organizations working hard to shove their Christianity down everyone else’s throat or, in the case of the Hutaree, down the barrel of a rifle.

      • Jim

        I don’t believe the scriptures to be absolutely true. I believe it to be a fiction, which is why I indicated that “God is a fictional character.” In the earlier discussion on this thread Jacob (who in multiple earlier conversations has indicated belief in the literal truth of the Bible) said that murder for God was not Biblical.

        =====

        American Heritage Dictionary:

        Kill: 2. To commit murder
        Killing: 1. Murder; homicide

        Murder: 2. To kill brutally

        =====

        I’ve read your scripture multiple times, Don. Now here’s my chance to ask you a question. Are you really going to tell me that the character God in the Bible doesn’t command his followers to take sex slaves? Are you really going to tell me that the character God in the Bible doesn’t command his followers to murder (i.e. “to kill brutally,” to engage in “killing” (see “murder”)) babies and other innocents? You really want to stick to that?

        • Don

          Jim,
          I am not going to let you change the debate. You and I have exchanged thoughts on whether or not there is a difference between Killing and Murder (which I will get to in a second) and secondary to that you want to debate whether or not the Bible is a work of fiction. (Your argument not mine…I was fine with killing and murder).

          First things first. I am not going to change your mind…or waste any time trying. I just want to point out fundamental flaws in your argument. If you so strongly believe there is no truth in the bible, then why cite chapter and verse? Why can you cite chapter and verse? As a matter of fact, it looks like you may have been searching for something in your life at one point because you claim to have read it. Sounds like maybe even more than once. Hey, apparently it is something you keep going back to for references. I can’t tell you anything chapter/verse wise from the Lord of the Rings (a popular fictional account).

          Now, let’s address the whole murder killing thing. One thing you should do when researching is to cross reference results. For example, killing and murder. If one were to cross reference the definitions from different sources we would see:

          From Merriam-Webster Dicitonary:
          1 a : to deprive of life : cause the death of b (1) : to slaughter (as a hog) for food (2) : to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering
          2 a : to put an end to b : defeat, veto c : to mark for omission; also : delete d : annihilate, destroy
          3 a : to destroy the vital or essential quality of b : to cause to stop c : to check the flow of current through.
          4 : to make a markedly favorable impression on

          From Dictionary.com:
          verb (used with object)
          1. to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.
          2. to destroy; do away with; extinguish: His response killed our hopes.
          3. to destroy or neutralize the active qualities of: to kill an odor.
          4. to spoil the effect of: His extra brushwork killed the painting.

          I have not found the “kill” entry as you proclaim from American Heritage. Maybe You didn’t use the first of several definitions. When you get down to the 15th or 16th possible definition it may be there…but I did not see the word murder used once. I have seriously truncated the definitions…and did not waste my time trying to post-up all the different references. I put these therer to show the common thread.

          Now, for the word Murder-

          Merriam-Webster:

          Murder-
          1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
          2 a : something very difficult or dangerous b : something outrageous or blameworthy

          The Free Dicionary.com
          Murder-
          1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
          2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.

          I reject your argument that killing is murder. You can not substantiate your argument with valid references.

          Now, to reply to your question, “Are you really going to tell me that the character God in the Bible doesn’t command his followers to take sex slaves? Are you really going to tell me that the character God in the Bible doesn’t command his followers to murder (i.e. “to kill brutally,” to engage in “killing” (see “murder”)) babies and other innocents? You really want to stick to that?”

          No…he does not command me to take sex slaves…no he doesn’t command his followers to commit murder…and yes, I really want to stick with that. You can’t go cherry pick “this nugget of info” or not give total context to quotes or bits of information (which you still have not provided)and form an argument. And BTW…I have still not attacked atheism, nor alluded to how wrong it is. Neither have I pushed my religion down your throat. So you have no worries from me. I like to keep the debate on topic.

          • Don, the person who’s changing the debate here is YOU. This article is about a Christian militia, the Hutaree, that planned to kill non-Christians in the name of Jesus.

            • don

              Cliff…go back and re-read my interactions with Jim. Our discussion is an off-shoot of the Hutaree story. Directly related to one aspect of their beliefs. Consider it a debate within a larger conversation. I am not changing the topicI started discussing, and to which Jim replied, which was my assertion there is a difference between killing and murder. Just keeping it in the lines. Want to join in our discussion? If so, bring something that adds to the topic being discussed.

              • Don, you’re denying a huge thread through your religion’s Bible in order to try to make the Hutarees somehow less Christian. In fact, the Bible provides plenty of material for those who believe in religious violence – especially when it comes to the violent judgment by Jesus himself on the final day of judgment, when Jesus will be looking on in approval over the eternal torture on non-Christians. That’s in the Bible, Don. The problem isn’t that the Hutarees are veering wildly away from Christian teachings. The problem is that the Hutarees are following the biblical example of God and Jesus all too closely. They see the Bible’s teaching that peace is for your neighbors and your tribe, and bloody punishment is for those who refuse to follow your God.

                That’s a pretty good reason not to follow the worship of the Christian God.

                Your attempt to weasel around this essential point with legalistic arguments about how killing people in the name of God doesn’t count as murder isn’t making your religious standpoint more sympathetic. It’s just that kind of logic that led the Hutaree Christian militia to run around in the woods, training to kill people for God.

                • don

                  Nothing weaselly about what I am saying. Nor are any of my points legal in nature. You are the one that is tying this into a legal argument. The nature of the term murder, which Jim referred to repeatedly, is legal in nature. Notice the first words in practically every definition is “unlawful killing”. Killing in the name of ideology, religion, etc. is as old as this Earth. Ever wonder why there are so many little white crosses in France? It is, then, by your estimation OK to kill for government, but not for God?

                  Also attempting to tie the Hutaree beliefs to mine (or Christianity in general) is a very big stretch. You are just plain wrong about what (I will use the term “mainstream”) Christians believe. You can make all the arguments you want when you don’t take context into account, that doesn’t mean they are valid.

                  I obviously do not have the profound insight you do in regards to Hutaree beliefs, but I will not take your word, nor that of the government, as to what they are. What is your source for what they believe?

          • Jim

            1. This is the second time in which I am telling you why I am citing chapter and verse, so pay attention this time: Jacob here on this thread takes a literalist claim regarding the Bible and asserted something was not Biblically correct. I am responding to literalism by pointing out its foibles.

            2. If you’re going to selectively not look at all the definitions in the dictionary, then of course you won’t find the definitions I provided.

            3. If you want me to be sympathetic to your implicit notion that if “God” tells you to go kill a baby, it’s Okey-Dokey, then you probably won’t want to hold your breath.

            4. Read your Bible more carefully.
            Numbers 31:
            “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

            Deuteronomy 21:
            “When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her as thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.”

            Want some more?

            5. Contrary to your perceptions, the topic of this thread is not you. The topic of this thread is the arrest of nine Americans who are alleged to have killed. If that’s not pushing religion, I don’t know what is. If you want to complain about people critically discussing Christianity, take it up with the Hutaree and the many other religious groups in America that are trying to make everybody live according to the standards of the Bible. When they stop trying to make everybody live like they think a Christian should, I’ll stop talking about Christianity.

            • don

              Jim,
              Never said the topic of the thread is me. Don’t know where you got that other than your attempt to try to discredit me by making an absurd comment. Let’s keep it on track. Now, I have noticed the absence of the word murder in your latest post. Great! Just like you were pointing out the literal foibles in Jacobs argument, I am doing the same with yours. Words mean things…so there is a difference between murder and killing, and obviously you have made the connection.

              You said, “If you’re going to selectively not look at all the definitions in the dictionary, then of course you won’t find the definitions I provided.” My retort…well, I suppose your one unsubstantiated reference should be good enough for any fair minded individual? I reviewed several different sources…I only posted a couple because there was a common thread…that thread was…your information was not corroborated by any other reference. As far as credibility, if your lack of cross reference of material is this obvious, should I trust your analysis of the Bible?

              All of your Bible quotes, by the way, lack any context. Again, how can you argue Jacobs point by simply cherry picking sentences you believe to have an emotional impact that bolsters your point (ie. Murder of women and children)? What about all the murder of men? Imagery is a powerful thing, and you choose to promote your point by cherry picking particularly violent passages, with no explanation of the main point of the chapter. I obviously can’t explain “context” to you, as you seem to care less.

              Now, in regards to Hutaree beliefs and what actually happened, I have read the indictment, and there is no mention of any alleged killing as you state in your last post. They were alleged to have planned to kill. Big difference.

              • Jim

                I’m not on the same “track” you are. This article is a discussion of the Hutaree plans to kill cops for Christ. You want to talk about how you’ve been slighted and discredited and taken advantage of.

                Having done exactly what you asked and gone to the dictionary to show that murder and killing are defined in terms of one another, I have no desire to rehash. And I’m going to continue to be unsympathetic to your claim that if a fictional deity in the sky says it’s OK to go kill innocent babies, it’s not murder and it’s therefore okey dokey.

                Now that I’ve shown you the Bible says just what I said it says after you said it didn’t, you’re playing the “context” game. Anyone who has read the Bible knows that the God character very straightforwardly made these declarations. If you’re so keen on context, why don’t you tell me the context in which God issuing commandments for the slaughter of innocent babies and the taking of sex slaves is not actually a commandment for the slaughter of innocent babies and the taking of sex slaves. Explain what God really meant: is this an ancient Aramaic euphemism for planting daisies?

                P.S. the Hutaree sentence I wrote was a typo, and I must have forgotten to finish that sentence. Yes, they are alleged to have had plans to kill cops for Christ this month. My apologies for the typo. The point still stands, and this behavior by violently pushy Christians is still the topic at hand.

                • Don

                  You win. Your blind faith in faithlessness is something that I can not argue against. I just will not accept your opinions of Christianity, and the assertions made in the article as fact. I’ll let the situation play out and form my opinion of the group later. The article seems to be particularly biased. I am more partial to fair and impartial presentation of fact.

    • Montana

      I love that they asked for “Public Defenders” (and they thought they could bring down our government), undercover FBI agent, sweet. The simpleton Tea baggers keep missing the point. These are the same whiners that were crying when the McCain/Bailin ticket lost. Now they are crying again because their yelling and screaming (because they are haters not debaters or as others have dubbed them screamers not dreamers) did not stop the health care debate or the bill from passing. They think they can scare, intimidate and force others to go along with them by comments like “This time we came unarmed”, let me tell you something they are not the only ones that are armed and not all ex-military join the fringe militia crazies who don’t pay taxes and run around with face paint in the parks playing commando, the majority are mature and understand that the world is more complicated and grey than the black and white that these simpleton make it out to be and that my friend is the point. Do not cry when regular people openly laugh at your group when they see on TV that your leaders are Sarah Bailin, Orly Taitz, Victoria Jackson, Michele Bachmann and your own turn coat Glenn Beck from the LDS. They do more to discredit you group on TV (powerful) than any of comments on the blog sphere. Yee Haw!

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