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Bloody Confusion In Afghanistan

When you think of the Islamic State, you think of atrocities. It is rightfully so. The Islamic State (or ISIS or ISIL or whatever you prefer to say in order to avoid saying “Islamic State) is infamous for its brutality. So, it is commonly said that the Islamic State must be stopped “by any means necessary” – a phrase that is shorthand for war, and all the horrible things that go along with war.

Bombing a hospital would fit right in with the kind of atrocities the Islamic State has become known for. Just imagine Islamic State fighters bombing a hospital for an entire hour, until the patients are burned alive… and there are children inside. It makes the blood go cold, doesn’t it?

hospital bombing by any means necessary

Now, imagine your own country bombing a hospital for an hour, despite calls from desperate hospital staff to NATO headquarters pleading for them to stop the attack, as patients are burned alive, including the children. That’s what appears to have happened in Afghanistan. Some journalists are using the euphemism of “airstrike”, but what seems to have happened is that the United States military bombed a hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan for an hour, dropping bombs at least 20 times.

Why? The United States is still at war in Afghanistan. The United States, after 14 years, is still trying to defeat the Taliban. The hospital bombing was part of an attack designed to drive Taliban fighters out of Kunduz. The Taliban, after all, are terrible people, who do terrible things… like bombing hospitals.

It doesn’t get much airplay here in the United States, but groups like the Taliban and the Islamic State run the same kind of pro-war propaganda that we hear from our own political leaders. They point to American atrocities, such as this week’s bombing of a hospital, or the Abu Ghraib prison torture, or Guantanamo, and say, “We must never forget these brutalities. We must drive out the United States by any means necessary.”

So, by any means necessary becomes the low standard by which both sides go to war. It’s all in a good cause, both sides say, to bring peace, and to defeat the evildoers.

Can we admit, after 14 years of fighting in Afghanistan, and 24 years of fighting in Iraq, that this strategy isn’t working?

50 thoughts on “Bloody Confusion In Afghanistan”

  1. Robert Milnes says:

    Come on, Peregrin Peckerwood, do you really think the U.S. military deliberately bombed a hospital…anywhere? Anytime? French and Indian war-Afghanistan.
    If so, it would indeed constitute a war crime as stated by the U.N.
    Don’t you think the U.S. military knows this? Only possibility I see is if msf took in Taliban wounded despite being asked not to.
    But still I don’t see that-punitive bombing- happening.
    More possible, even likely, a false report of Taliban incursion/emergency and exact gps coordinates.
    By who? THE TALIBAN!
    Someone gave them U.S. tactical reporting info. Iran, Russia, China, N.Korea etc.
    Sounds much more likely to me. Even more likely than a rogue operation.
    Those rogues would get caught and busted before they could park their plane.
    Remember the Talaban shot Malala.
    I suppose you support putting the Taliban back in power?
    Imperial Japan and the Third Reich also?

  2. Leroy says:


    Nice language.

    If one has to resort to falsehoods, untruths, and wingnut “logic”, then I guess that name calling is the standard choice for some people.

    Since it is obvious that the links provided weren’t read, it should be reiterated… yes, the United States military has INTENTIONALLY bombed and shelled and mortgaged hospitals (and places of religious worship) repeatedly… And for generations.

    Anyone with ANY knowledge about military history and military arts and sciences KNOWS that the information provided in those links are 100% accurate.

    Listen Robin bird brain. There were NO smart bombs in WW2 so when cities (entire CITIES) were carpetbombed and firebombed in WW2, do you believe that the United States really believed that there were NO hospitals in those cities? Of course they knew. Which makes the fact that the United States INTENTIONALLY bombed hospitals a FACT. These were NOT bombing raids targeting specific military targets in and around cities (factory complexes, railway hubs, military sites), but raids that lasted all night and over multiple days that targeted the entire city. Residential areas. Civilian infrastructure. It was a CONSCIOUS strategic decision.

    And also occurred to a lesser extent (because they had less infrastructure) in the Korean War but then again to a large extent in the Vietnam War.

    I can only assume that you flunked History pretty poorly!

    And, yes, that type of indiscriminate warfare (whether bombing or shelling) IS a violation of International Law and IS a War Crime. Do you know who General Curtis LeMay was? Probably not. During the early years of the Cold War he was the Commander of SAC (the Strategic Air Command). In WW2 he was the Commander of the Fifth Army Air Corps and commanded the aerial bombing campaign against the Japanese homeland. A bombing campaign that – not counting the atomic bomb attacks against Hiroshima and Nagasaki – killed over 350,000 civilians, seriously wounded over 500,000 and created over 8.5 million refugees (at a very conservative estimate!). He himself specifically stated that if the United States would have lost the War in the Pacific (or the Allies investigated and prosecuted equally as the Axis powers were), that he would have been executed for war crimes (see interviews at the time to include as reported in the book “War Made New” by very conservative author Max Boot). This is NOT what some critic of LeMay’s said, not what some bleeding heart liberal said, this was what General LeMay himself said.

    Of course they were War Crimes. And of course those cities were loaded with hospitals. And of course the United States military KNEW that (ergo making those bombings intentional!).

    I seriously doubt that you would do it (seeing as how you seem to have a reading problem and clearly a history problem), but I would STRONGLY suggest reading the book “Winning at War” (by Christian Potholm)… even just Chapter Four – “Sustained But Controlled Ruthlessness”.

    As far as the rabidly fanatic CONSPIRATORIAL spewing about whether this really happened but especially about it being TECHNOLOGICALLY performed in some manner by the extremely technologically illiterate Afghan farmer Taliban (no Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian military or Intelligence agency personnel have EVER been detected in Afghanistan advising or providing technical support for the Taliban)… well that is so abominable as to not even be worth responding to. This sounds like some absolute lie that would be portrayed by a Glenn Beck or Pat Robertson show!

    Hint: Thousands of ultra fanatic rightwing wingnuts chanting repeatedly a bunch of bull crap – even if for thousands of days – does NOT make it the truth!

    And I note how official responses keep inching closer to “Oops! Yes, we did it”:

  3. Robert Milnes says:

    I didn’t say we-our military-didn’t do it. I said they were duped into doing it by sophisticated means. Using our own training and technology against us. Who would have that capability? The Taliban? I think not.
    The Afghans were the intermediaries, wittingly or unwittingly.
    And of course I know about Dresden etc. You are trying to equate today’s warfare with past warfare. There wasn’t a U.N. or msf before 1945. Before that no Geneva convention etc.
    Both sides engage in war.
    Simply bombing msf in Afghanistan is different-VERY different from bombing Dresden in WW2 or Richmond in our Civil War.
    BTW Peregrin Peckerwood and I have a history.
    Bob Milnes Green for President, NO, No, No!
    He’s rather have Zog candidate Zionist lackey/dupe Jill Stein.
    That makes you a johnny come lately, Leroy.

  4. Leroy says:


    Let’s keep changing what was REALLY said (or trying to, with hopes that people are too dumb to notice)


    “Come on, Peregrin Peckerwood, do you really think the U.S. military deliberately bombed a hospital… anywhere? Anytime? French and Indian war (sic) – (to) – Afghanistan. Deliberately. If so, it would indeed constitute a war crime as stated by the U.N.”

    Look at that compared to what you now TRY to say! “I didn’t say we – our military – didn’t do it”

    Yes, you did.

    Then you admit (apparently) that we did:

    “I said they were duped into doing it by sophisticated means. Using our own training and technology against us. Who would have that capability? The Taliban? I think not. The Afghans were the intermediaries, wittingly or unwittingly.”

    (Initially it was Russia or China or North Korea or Iran providing the Taliban with this super advanced supposed targeting technology – can you read what you specifically wrote before?)

    YOUR OWN COMMENT refers to the U. S. Military NOT intentionally bombing a hospital ANYWHERE and ANYTIME between the French and Indian War (1754 – 1763, a part of the Seven Years War globally).

    By the way, there was NO United States military at the time of the French and Indian Wars as the 13 Colonies did not declare our Independence from the British Empire until 1776. And we did not win that Independence until 1783 (still not the United States but a Confederation). We fully became the United States as a Federal democratic republic with the adoption of the Constitution in 1787 with the adoption of the Constitution in 1788 and the Bil of Rights by 1791). From 1775 to 1784 we had Continental Army which was then disbanded. Several months later the “Congress of the Confederation” passed legislation for the creation of a United States Army. I hate having to regurgitate such basic American military history, but since YOU know so little about it… There was NO United States military during the French and Indian Wars.

    BTW, Richmond was NOT bombed (there were no airplanes during the time of the traitorous War of Secession) nor shelled by Union forces during the Civil War. With the collapse of Rebel forces around Petersburg and it’s capture, the Southern rebel leaders ordered the total evacuation of Richmond – and ordered retreating troops to burn armories, bridges, and warehouses with supplies. Those fires quickly spread out of control and spread throughout basically empty Richmond. Union troops entering Richmond eventually brought the fire under control.

    An extremely similar situation happened in 1864 prior to the capture of Atlanta. Federal forces shelled several fortified military positions on the APPROACHES to Atlanta, but not Atlanta (or civilian areas in general) and forced Secessionist forces from each in a series of battles and flanking maneuvers. As it became clear that Atlanta would soon fall capture to Federal forces, ” On September 1, 1864, Confederate Gen. John Bell Hood evacuated Atlanta, after a five-week siege mounted by Union Gen. William Sherman, and ordered all public buildings and possible Confederate assets destroyed… With all of his supply lines cut, General Hood was forced to abandon Atlanta. On the night of September 1, his troops marched out of the city to Lovejoy, Georgia. General Hood ordered that the 81 rail cars filled with ammunition and other military supplies be destroyed. The resulting fire and explosions were heard for miles… The federal forces would occupy Atlanta until November 15/16 when they would begin their “March to the Sea”. During this approximately 73 days, General Sherman and his troops would not only keep an eye on Gen. Hood and the confederate army, but evacuate all civilians from Atlanta, build their own shelters, construct fortifications, forage for fresh food, some would get a furloughs to visit home, and finally destroy all assets of military value in Atlanta…. On September 8, 1864, General Sherman issued special order No 67, “The city of Atlanta, being exclusively required for warlike purposes, will at once be vacated by all except the armies of the United States”. The order also instructs the chief engineer to survey the city for the permanent defense and to mark all structures that stand in his way to be set apart for destruction. The order also prohibited soldiers from occupying any house. The order allowed soldiers to “use boards, shingles, or materials of buildings, barns, sheds, warehouses, and shanties” to build their own quarters…. However, the remaining war resources were then destroyed in the aftermath and in Sherman’s March to the Sea. These included Edward A. Vincent’s railroad depot, built in 1853…”

    And of course there is the “infamous” March to the Sea by General Sherman with the resulting (peaceful as it turns out) capture of Savannah.

    “In November 1864, two months after capturing the city of Atlanta, General William Tecumseh Sherman and his army of 62,000 men began the march south to Savannah. They lived off the land and, by Sherman’s own estimate, caused more than $100 million in property damage in Georgia alone. Sherman called this harsh tactic of material war ‘hard war’ (in modern times this is known as total war)… As the army would be out of touch with the North throughout the campaign, Sherman gave explicit orders, Sherman’s Special Field Orders, No. 120, regarding the conduct of the campaign. The following is an excerpt from the orders:

    … IV. The army will forage liberally on the country during the march. To this end, each brigade commander will organize a good and sufficient foraging party, under the command of one or more discreet officers, who will gather, near the route traveled, corn or forage of any kind, meat of any kind, vegetables, corn-meal, or whatever is needed by the command, aiming at all times to keep in the wagons at least ten day’s provisions for the command and three days’ forage. Soldiers must not enter the dwellings of the inhabitants, or commit any trespass, but during a halt or a camp they may be permitted to gather turnips, apples, and other vegetables, and to drive in stock of their camp. To regular foraging parties must be instructed the gathering of provisions and forage at any distance from the road traveled.
    V. To army corps commanders alone is entrusted the power to destroy mills, houses, cotton-gins, &c., and for them this general principle is laid down: In districts and neighborhoods where the army is unmolested no destruction of such property should be permitted; but should guerrillas or bushwhackers molest our march, or should the inhabitants burn bridges, obstruct roads, or otherwise manifest local hostility, then army commanders should order and enforce a devastation more or less relentless according to the measure of such hostility.

    VI. As for horses, mules, wagons, &c., belonging to the inhabitants, the cavalry and artillery may appropriate freely and without limit, discriminating, however, between the rich, who are usually hostile, and the poor or industrious, usually neutral or friendly. Foraging parties may also take mules or horses to replace the jaded animals of their trains, or to serve as pack-mules for the regiments or brigades. In all foraging, of whatever kind, the parties engaged will refrain from abusive or threatening language, and may, where the officer in command thinks proper, give written certificates of the facts, but no receipts, and they will endeavor to leave with each family a reasonable portion for their maintenance…

    General Grant trusted Sherman’s assessment and on November 2, 1864, he sent Sherman a telegram stating simply, “Go as you propose.” The 300-mile march began on November 15, 1864… Sherman’s personal escort on the march was the 1st Alabama Cavalry Regiment, a unit made up entirely of Southerners who remained loyal to the Union (many non historians don’t know it, but EVERY Southern state had a minimum of one regiment in the service of Federal forces from the very start of the War – and more as the war progressed… only two Northern states had one regiment each that served with the CSA… And the “Border States” supplied troops to the U. S. Army at a rate of 12 – 1 on average as compared to the CSA armies)… Hardee decided not to surrender but to escape. On December 20, he led his men across the Savannah River on a makeshift pontoon bridge. The next morning, Savannah Mayor Richard Dennis Arnold, with a delegation of aldermen and ladies of the city, rode out (until they were unhorsed by fleeing Confederate cavalrymen) to offer a proposition: The city would surrender and offer no resistance, in exchange for General Geary’s promise to protect the city’s citizens and their property. Geary telegraphed Sherman, who advised him to accept the offer… ”

    The only example of a bombardment of a city by U. S. Military forces during this War would have been that of Charleston, South Carolina (after much of the city had been burned into ruins in an accidental fire that spread out-of-control in late 1861) and never repaired / rebuilt.,_South_Carolina_in_the_American_Civil_War

    “On December 11th of 1861, a massive fire burned 164 acres of the city, destroying the Cathedral of St. Finbar, the Circular Congregational Church and South Carolina Institute hall, and nearly 600 other buildings. Much of the damage remained un-repaired until the end of the war… With the development of newer, longer-range artillery, and as Union forces were able to place batteries even closer to the city, a bombardment began in late 1863 that continued on and off for more than a year. The cumulative effects of this bombardment would destroy much of the city that had survived the fire. A coordinated series of attacks on the city were launched in early July 1864, including an amphibious assault on Fort Johnson and an invasion of Johns Island… As Gen. Sherman marched through South Carolina, the situation for Charleston became ever more precarious. On February 15, 1865, Gen. Beauregard ordered the evacuation of remaining Confederate forces. On February 18, the mayor surrendered the city to General Alexander Schimmelfennig; and Union troops finally moved in, taking control of many sites, such as the U.S. Arsenal (which the C.S.A. had seized at the outbreak of the war)… ”

    Our Total War concept started (quite liberally one would have to concede in spite of your inferences about how much worse the U. S. Military was back then as far as War crimes) with specific strategies developed during the Civil War, but did NOT include tactics that would result in knowingly killing civilians as a nationally accepted policy – although individual commanders and guerrilla units on both sides did so at times….

    President Lincoln even addressed it with a specific law:

    “The Lieber Code of April 24, 1863, also known as Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field, General Order № 100,[1][2] or Lieber Instructions, was an instruction signed by President Abraham Lincoln to the Union Forces of the United States during the American Civil War that dictated how soldiers should conduct themselves in wartime… The document insisted upon the humane, ethical treatment of populations in occupied areas. It was the first expressly codified law that expressly forbade giving “no quarter” to the enemy (i.e., killing prisoners of war), except in such cases when the survival of the unit that held these prisoners was threatened. It forbade the use of poisons, stating that use of such puts any force who uses them entirely outside the pale of the civilized nations and peoples; it forbade the use of torture to extract confessions; it described the rights and duties of prisoners of war and of capturing forces. It described the state of war, the state of occupied territories, the ends of war, and discusses permissible and impermissible means to attain those ends; it discussed the nature of states and sovereignties, and insurrections, rebellions, and wars. As such, it is widely considered to be the first written recital of the customary law of war, in force between the civilized nations and peoples since time immemorial, and the precursor to the Hague Regulations of 1907, the treaty-based restatement of the customary law of war… ”

    So very clearly your statement of the United States military being so much more civilised and law abiding today as back in those “bad old days” where they shelled Richmond into ruins has been relegated to the trashcan!

  5. Leroy says:

    Your lack of knowledge in these matters is simply astounding. Surpassed only by your outright lying (like saying you referred only to the Doctors Without Borders hospital bombing – in a friendly national ally city which had been temporarily taken by enemy guerrilla forces when your OWN initial Comment clearly specified ANYTIME, ANYWHERE… from them French and Indian War [sic] to Afghanistan).

    First, the facts of the intentional and knowing bombing (and shelling) of hospitals, places of worship, etcetera by United States military OVER the generations was WELL DOCUMENTED. And WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, etcetera were NOT that long ago. And these intentional bombings and shellings occurred throughout both Afghanistan and Iraq (using a 2000-lb bomb, even a smart bomb, in the middle of an urban area or even a village to target an individual house where a covert insurgent cell leader lives which – although right on the money – destroys several other houses and kills numerous other local civilian, to include women, children, and babies is something that our military KNOWS is going to happen… they even coined a phrase for it: “collateral damage”!). I suggest that you look into the specifics of The Second Battle of Fallujah where the city – including hospitals – was pretty indiscriminately leveled. Not that you will.

    And your ignorance of things such as War Crimes is, well, absolutely atrocious.

    Why do you think General Curtis LeMay admitted to being a War Criminal for his indiscriminate, any, even intentional bombing of civilians and non war civilian infrastructures in Japan? Because of some United Nations war crimes law? The United Nations didn’t come into existence until October of 1945. World War Two (where LeMay – and everyone who followed his illegal war crime orders – committed his self-admitted war crimes) ended in August of 1945.

    You clearly think that the German and Japanese war criminals were indicted, prosecuted, convicted and executed / imprisoned (as applied) based upon some United Nations law.

    Do you hear that loud noise off in the distance? That is me… LMAO.

    The German and Japanese War Crimes were MILITARY TRIBUNALS established by the victorious Allied governments – and were established as something that WOULD happen as far back as 1943, some 2 years before the United Nations.

    These military tribunals based there jurisdiction and the LAWS THAT WERE VIOLATED from international laws that had been in existence long, long before there was a United Nations (but then you believe that the Geneva Convention was established by the United Nations… I am LMAO even louder now).

    Laws of warfare existed LONG before there was a United Nations. (BTW, the International Court of Justice, which is a part of the UN, is not the same as the International Crime Court – established in 1998 – which is the International Court that today tries war criminals and has NO association with the UN. The International Court of Justice hears cases of disputes between nations – the United States withdrew from it in 1986 when the ICJ ruled against the United States in the case of Nicaragua versus United States in regards to the illegal, covert war that the United States, in violation even of Congressional mandates if one recalls the Iran-Contra Affair… you clearly have the ICC – not a part of the UN – and the ICJ – part of the UN – as being one and the same… still LMAO).

    (Note that while we signed this, we have repeatedly REFUSED to ratify it… we will USE THE INTERNATIONAL LAWS AND THE ICC TO HUNT DOWN WAR CRIMINALS OF OTHER NATIONS / GROUPS – BUT WILL NOT SUBMIT OURSELVES TO ITS LAWS AND JURISDICTION… Something that, once again, you clearly did NOT know)

    How the United States formally responds to proven allegations against us:


    But let’s get back to your absolute and total confusion as to International Crimes of the war crime nature (which includes war crimes, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and systemic war crimes such as rape, arson, etcetera).

    Maybe some definitions would be in order first (I am going to do it in this order / method as I don’t feel like typing out this relatively extensive data… plus as you clearly don’t read them, it is SO much fun to come back and hammer you AGAIN when you stumble around trying to explain away your lies and ignorance and attitude problems):

    (The United States having violated this historically in our genocide – as part of official government action – during the full range of Indian Wars from the start of our government, even before, but let’s be technically correct, through to roughly 1900 as detailed in – and … but more detailed via Chapter Four of “Winning at War” by Christian Potholm; but you probably want as it not only destroys so many of your fanatical rightwing wingnut fictitious beliefs, but has a LOT of multiple syllable words in it, being an academic tome)

    (They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy – although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy – or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority. Murder; massacres; dehumanization; extermination; human experimentation; extrajudicial punishments; death squads; military use of children; kidnappings; unjust imprisonment; slavery; cannibalism, torture; rape; political, racial, or religious persecution; and other inhumane acts may reach the threshold of crimes against humanity if they are part of a widespread or systematic practice… The different types of crimes which may constitute crimes against humanity differs between definitions both internationally and on the domestic level. Isolated inhumane acts of a certain nature committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack may instead constitute grave infringements of human rights, or – depending on the circumstances – war crimes, but are not classified as crimes against humanity”… And… Interestingly, as far back as 1814 this included the Slave Trade; see Treaty of Ghent, 1814.)

    (The United States has violated this historically as typified by things like The Indian Removal Act of 1830 with the resulting Trail of Tears with their death of 2,000-6,000 Cherokee civilians of the 16,000 forcibly removed… of course, that is only the most popular one known ones, there were many other legislated ones, like: all the way to the later: )

    (Note that in WW2 while Germans and Japanese were prosecuted and convicted of war crimes, that while Italy / Italians committed War Crimes, none were prosecuted! Why? Because in 1943 Mussolini was overthrown and the King – who had supported Mussolini – now joined Italy with the Allies… and, my God, we can’t be prosecuting Allied military / political leaders for committing War Crimes, now can we? In fact, the article DOES list the unrestricted submarine warfare War Crime as practiced by the United States against Japan – with NO prosecution, but, interestingly does not include the unrestricted civilian mass bombing campaigns conducted by the Americans and British against Germany nor that of the Americans against Japan – nor even mention the German war crime of “The London Blitz”, the unrestricted mass aerial bombings of mainly London, but also other English cities, as well as other European cities, such as Rotterdam, earlier in the war are NOT mentioned – as doing so would require the admission of the MUCH MORE SEVERE mass bombing of civilians by the Americans and British).

  6. Leroy says:

    As to the “Geneva Convention” (that SERIES of international laws that refer to laws of war), they are NOT something put together by the UN, but existed LONG before there was a UN, or even its predecessor The League of Nations, having initially been established in 1864! Hmmm.. that’s 81 years BEFORE the UN! (While technically adopted as such in 1949, in reality, it replaced a section adopted initially in 1907 and a separate international law of 1909 )
    (Note that once again the United States is a signatory to only PARTS of this international law)

    But wait, there’s even more.


    More international, multinational laws that regulated the conduct of warfare. Laws that predated not only the UN, but even WW1 and WW2!!!
    (To include the later adopted Geneva Protocol: As adopted in 1925).

    Interestingly we executed several German and Japanese military leaders under this concept…but then acquitted Captain Medina for the SAME violation as the commander present – and well aware – at the My Lai Massacre! But then that is what we NORMALLY do! If we can’t conceal it or explain it away, then hold the lowest ranking person possible and not the higher ups – like we did with Germans and Japanese! Except in Medina’s case there were “eyewitness witnesses who testified to him killing three “non combatants” – unarmed civilians – and he admitted to, as per other witnesses, killing an unarmed young woman trying to surrender. But in any case, the criminal investigation found that he “”Planned, ordered, and supervised the execution by his company of an unlawful operation against inhabited hamlets in Son My Village which included the destruction of houses by burning, killing of livestock, and the destruction of crops and other foodstuffs, and the closing of wells; and impliedly directed the killing of any persons found there.” (*)…
    Of course that same entity, the United States Army, then acquitted him after less than one hour of deliberation.
    (2 years house arrest his punishment after conviction!)

    (*) Summary of Investigation by General Peers:

    Continuing and related:

    In fact, the first recorded International War Crimes trial was held in Upper Alsace of the then Holy Roman Empire in 1474. He used the defense that most of these atrocities were committed not by him personally but soldiers under his command (see Command Responsibility) and that anyway he was just following orders (see Superior Orders). Those defenses were not accepted (even over 500 years ago) and he was convicted and executed.

    Also in November 1865 the Southern rebel commander of the POW Camp “Andersonville” was convicted and executed for what were essentially war crimes:

  7. Leroy says:

    But back to WW2 and the NON UNITED NATIONS WAR CRIMES TRIALS of German and Japanese war criminals.
    (The charter stipulated that crimes of the European Axis Powers could be tried. Three categories of crimes were defined: crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity.  The criminal procedure used by the Tribunal was closer to civil law than to common law, with a trial before a panel of judges rather than a jury trial and with wide allowance for hearsay evidence. Defendants who were found guilty could appeal the verdict to the Allied Control Council. In addition, they would be permitted to present evidence in their defense and to cross-examine witnesses.  The Charter was developed based on the authority of the Moscow Declaration: Statement on Atrocities, which was agreed at the Moscow Conference in 1943 [uh, like 2 years before establishment of the UN]. It was drawn up in London, following the surrender of Germany on VE Day. It was drafted by Robert H. Jackson, Robert Falco, and Iona Nikitchenko of the European Advisory Commission, and issued on 8 August 1945.)
    (The International Military Tribunal for the Far East Charter (IMTFE Charter), also known as the Tokyo Charter, was the decree issued by General Douglas MacArthur, Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers in Allied-occupied Japan, on 19 January 1946 that set down the laws and procedures by which the Tokyo Trials were to be conducted. The charter was issued months following the surrender of Japan on September 2, 1945, which brought World War II to an end.  Modeled after the Nuremberg Charter, the Tokyo Charter stipulated that crimes of the Japanese could be tried. Three categories of crimes were defined: crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity.)

    So there’s all of those extensive and intensive (though VERY selective) war crime trials (with VERY loose evidentiary requirements) where indicted military and political leaders were prosecuted, convicted, and punished (to include many executions) completely unrelated to the United Nations.

    This pretty much totally destroying one of your supposed alleged points, that somehow war only became civilized after the UN and it’s creation of the Geneva Convention (when in FACT your main initial points was that the United States military has NEVER bombed a hospital… but then, well, not deliberately, if it did happen – it had to be by the intentional misdirection act of someone else!!!).


    Well, based on your OWN original words:

    “Don’t you think the U.S. military knows this? Only possibility I see is if msf (sic) took in Taliban wounded despite being asked not to. But still I don’t see that – punitive bombing – happening.  More possible, even likely, a false report of Taliban incursion/emergency and exact gps (sic) coordinates.  By who?  THE TALIBAN!”


    And then, apparently recognizing that Afghan farmers and small town residents simply don’t have that capability – and they have never had such military technical capability, you add in:

    “Someone gave them U.S. tactical reporting info. Iran, Russia, China, N. Korea etc.  Sounds much more likely to me.”

    Riigghhttt… which has never happened at all in the Afghan theater. Or even the Iraqi Theater (where at times Iran provided logistical and weaponry support to Iraqi Shia insurgents… but none of those two, or North Korea, have that technology). And if Russia or China did, how did they transmit that data and to do so in an extremely small window of time? You clearly don’t really understand how PGIs (Precision Guided Munitions) work.

    And ignore the fact that the attack continued for 30 minutes after the medical and the administrative staff of the Doctors Without Borders hospital repeatedly called the Afghan military headquarters command and the U. S. Military command (as present in Afghanistan) and begged them to stop the air strikes – which repeatedly continued for another 30 minutes.

    Then this comes out of nowhere, with NO explanation as to WTH you mean:

    “Sounds much more likely to me. Even more likely than a rogue operation. Those rogues would get caught and busted before they could park their plane.”

    What rouges?

    The ONLY bombing raids were being done by US military (apparently Air Force) aircraft.

    The Afghanistan Air Force has NO bombers or fighter bombers (only a small handful of older Mi-17 and Mi-35 attack helicopters as their ONLY attack combat aircraft… And have NO experience with using or working our PGI “smart bombs”). I don’t believe that ANY of our allied NATO (the ISAF) forces left in Afghanistan include any of their combat attack aircraft.

    So who were these “rogues” that were initially referred to? Obviously had to be American combat aircraft. So based on some mentally unstable (or whatever) rationale – maybe that they “may” have been treating wounded Taliban (which they were not, but even if they were, they are legally required to – and it still is an international war crime), you are saying that some American pilot (or pilots) not only went rogue, but repeatedly, and committed these attacks.

    Except that we KNOW who did it.

    And we KNOW how.

    And we know that it didn’t even involve fighter-bomber type aircraft with PGI smart bombs!

    It was a continuing attack by an AC-130 gunship (that doesn’t use PGIs, whether laser-guided or GP-guided). It is more like a Flying Artillery Platform and operates by line-of-sight (not laser-guided or GPS-guided, etcetera).

    Since I really doubt that you are aware of the AC-130 mode of operation…

    It is NOT a bomber like a B-52 or B-2 or fighter-bomber like an F-15 (etcetera). It does not normally drop PGIs or fire Cruise Missiles (though plans are in effect to develop new models which will in the future have some limited stand-off precision guided platform weapon capability (that being what will be the AC-130J model, due to go into operation sometime in 2017). The one used in this attack was undoubtedly an AC-130U: “…14 MC-130W Dragon Spear aircraft have been converted to AC-130W Stinger II gunships…   The Stinger gunships have been deployed to Afghanistan to replace the aging AC-130H aircraft… Modifications began with crews cutting holes in the plane to make room for weapons… Crews added a 105 mm cannon, 20-inch infrared and electro-optical sensors, and the ability to carry 250-pound bombs on the wings…”

    But, hey, maybe the U. S. Military didn’t know that there was any type of hospital anywhere near there (which would be strange since Kunduz was a friendly Afghan city until temporarily being overrun by the Taliban).

    But, alas…. No. They knew. In fact, the U. S. Military had been specifically aware of that specific hospital and its specific location for over a month before that.

  8. Leroy says:

    From a simple and general summary type perspective:

    The “modern” adopted laws of warfare and conflict can pretty much be summed up here:

    And of course there is the general practices of the concept of Just War that goes back for even more centuries.

    “Just war theory (jus bellum iustum) is a doctrine, also referred to as a tradition, of military ethics studied by theologians, ethicists, policy makers, and military leaders. The purpose of the doctrine is to ensure war is morally justifiable through a series of criteria, all of which must be met for a war to be considered just….”

    The first known  written examples spelling out the Just War concept actually originated in India from 800-900 B. C. Later proponents of Just War specifically included a number of early Christian leaders. Especially Saint Augustine and (900 years later) Thomas Aquinas.

    And WTH did this have to do with ANYTHING related to the U. S. Military bombing a hospital?

    “Remember the Talaban (sic) shot Malala.”

    So what?

    A gunman (assumed to be a Pakistani Taliban as that Taliban group had been threatening her) shoots her aboard her bus (in Pakistan)… ” On the afternoon of 9 October 2012, Malala Yousafzai (that’s her FULL name, not just her first name) boarded her school bus in the northwest Pakistani district of Swat. A gunman asked for her by name, then pointed a pistol at her and fired three shots…. “.

    But leaves out this part:

    ” On 12 October 2012, a group of 50 Islamic clerics in Pakistan issued a fatwā against those who tried to kill her… “

  9. Leroy says:


    But like YOU said:

    ” If so (and it assuredly was so), it would indeed constitute a war crime…. ”

    Which is in agreement with a high level UN official:

    The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Zeid Ra’ad Al Hussein, also demanded an investigation, saying, “This event is utterly tragic, inexcusable, and possibly even criminal. International and Afghan military planners have an obligation to respect and protect civilians at all times, and medical facilities and personnel are the object of a special protection.”

  10. Leroy says:

    And, BTW, what makes me a “johnny come lately” in this case?

    Simply the fact that I have only recently started posting here?

    I just found this blog recently (and posted on the first day).

    I will compare backgrounds, personal histories, knowledge, IQ levels, research ability (I have a semi photographic memory – over 75 percentile – and taught myself to speed read – at over 60% of levels achieved by commercial training school averages), books owned, books read per week, status as high level amateur military historian, etcetera, any time that you’d like.

    Aw heck, never mind… I clearly KNOW how that would turn out!

  11. Robert Milnes says:

    Leroy, it looks to me like you are some kind of fbi/mossad plant. Specifically sent to attack me.
    Now, who the hell are you?
    WHY would the U.S. military deliberately bomb a msf facility?
    Are you aware of the call for an international investigation of this incident by msf?
    Do you really think it will find that the U.S. deliberately bombed msf? Again, WHY?
    Why do that? Why flagrantly commit an atrocity? Was there a hatred by the U.S. military of msf?
    Was there some sort of strategic reason?
    Who in the world would benefit by this? THe Taliban hates msf etc.
    MANY bad characters internationally hate the U.S., including evidently YOU.
    You seem to know it all, answer me that.
    WHY? What was the reason/rationale?
    And prove you are not affiliated with fbi/mossad.

    1. Jim Cook says:

      Was it the ears? Did Leroy’s ears give it away? Or the fact that he disagrees with you?

      1. Leroy says:

        Fortunately this is America, and I don’t HAVE to prove anything to you.

        Or any other mentally handicapped right-wing fanatical wingnut.

        Yes, I am aware of the call for an international investigation by Doctors Without Borders (and high level officials from several different sections of the United Nations as well as leaders of many countries).

        So what? Our military has repeatedly admitted to it (did you even know that?). Our political leaders have repeatedly admitted to it. (Now granted, the official story changed FOUR times in THREE days… LMAO). So why not openly submit the case yourself to the ICC for investigation? It is not a part of the UN (and has tried war crimes from Serbian, Croatian, Rwandan, etcetera, criminals).

        There was NO strategic rationale for bombing the hospital. And I have no idea as to whether the U. S. military (or CIA or State Department or NSA) hates Doctors Without Borders or not. That has NOTHING to do with it.

        I have never said that the U. S. military INTENTIONALLY and with PREMEDITATION bombed the facility. I said that we did it intentionally as it – whatever it may have been (hospital, place of worship, food distribution center, etcetera) – was simply perceived as (yawn) “just another target”. If you had ANY intelligence about History you would know that has become (sadly) “The American Way of Warfare”.

        As to my affiliation with the FBI / CIA (specifically the Special Operations Command of the Special Activities Division) / NSA / Mossad / FSB / MI-6, well, I can neither confirm nor deny such affiliation.

        1. Leroy says:

          Peckerwood… you can delete this one.

          It went under the Comment by the gentleman Jim Cook by mistake.

      2. Leroy says:

        Jim… I think that you meant NOSE.

        While I do have the large hairy Jewish ears (not!), it is the big, hooked Semetic nose that really gives me away (again… not!).

        It truth though.

        It has been a LONG time since I have seen someone so ignorant (with conspiracy theories that are clearly in the realm of derangement), close-minded, and openly racist (in the form of anti-Semetic, both as relates to Jews AND Muslims on a progressive blog site) and who is so consistently tolerated. Yes, there is a First Amendment with a Freedom of Expression clause, but it is not an absolute freedom (requires a degree of RESPONSIBILITY for example).

        I am sure (in fact, I know) that there are numerous far rightwing conspiratorial websites and blogs online that would welcome individuals like this with open arms… which is why I refrain from visiting or especially joining THOSE types of sites.

        Unless he’s simply one of those types who masturbates while playing at Flaming!

      3. Robert Milnes says:

        Cookie! Another lame comment by Cookie!
        No, I didn’t see ears or nose. Or anything. Leroy’s comments are anonymous. No photo. No I.D. No easy determination of agenda or motive.
        Whereas my phote and campaign website with a LOT of info about ME, is one click away.

        1. Leroy says:

          Quote from Robert W. Milne’s “About” page

          “Over the years I have not blogged/commented very much on my own websites. Mostly I commented on The Last Free Voice, then Third Party Watch, then Independent Political Report.

          Then I was banned from commenting on IPR 2 years ago.

          This represents my efforts to elicit comments from readers and comment/reply myself. It is formatted from the same template as IPR and I have added a monthly Open Thread for any/all kind of comments much like IPR. Since it is my blog which I own the domain and I am the administrator and only one administrator is allowed by WordPress, I cannot be banned!!!!!”

          What an intelligence move by IPR!

          Maybe Irregular Times will get the hint.

          Why should they provide free media exposure to a self-admitted (LMAO here) “presidential candidate”? (Well, other than to give their larger audience a thorough exposure to what a clown this guy is… there’s always that).

          I also noted that while there’s so many “articles” over there, there there are so FEW comments. One here, two there… but most have NONE!


    2. Leroy says:

      Fortunately this is America, and I don’t HAVE to prove anything to you.

      Or any other mentally handicapped right-wing fanatical wingnut.

      Yes, I am aware of the call for an international investigation by Doctors Without Borders (and high level officials from several different sections of the United Nations as well as leaders of many countries).

      So what? Our military has repeatedly admitted to it (did you even know that?). Our political leaders have repeatedly admitted to it. (Now granted, the official story changed FOUR times in THREE days… LMAO). So why not openly submit the case yourself to the ICC for investigation? It is not a part of the UN (and has tried war crimes from Serbian, Croatian, Rwandan, etcetera, criminals).

      There was NO strategic rationale for bombing the hospital. And I have no idea as to whether the U. S. military (or CIA or State Department or NSA) hates Doctors Without Borders or not. That has NOTHING to do with it.

      I have never said that the U. S. military INTENTIONALLY and with PREMEDITATION bombed the facility. I said that we did it intentionally as it – whatever it may have been (hospital, place of worship, food distribution center, etcetera) – was simply perceived as (yawn) “just another target”. If you had ANY intelligence about History you would know that has become (sadly) “The American Way of Warfare”.

      As to my affiliation with the FBI / CIA (specifically the Special Operations Command of the Special Activities Division) / NSA / Mossad / FSB / MI-6, well, I can neither confirm nor deny such affiliation.

  12. Robert Milnes says:

    Are you jewish, Leroy? Because THAT would explain A LOT.

    1. Leroy says:

      Sorry for your WEIRDO conspiracy theory, but, no I am not Jewish (which is a religion… NOT an ethnic group!).

      Having done a LOT of work with genealogy (helped along very recently by a grandson’s current girlfriend who is Mormon), I am primarily (about 60%) Gaelic (Irish, Scottish, Breton, and Scotch-Irish) with the other 40% being Nordic and northern Germanic.

      And not only not of the Jewish faith myself, have absolutely no known ancestors of the Judaic faith (not that it would matter to me).

      Wow… you really are into that ZOG Conspiracy stuff big time, huh?

      (Note to self: File appropriate reporting paperwork reference Subject RMG4716M4 to SOG/SAD at soonest)

  13. Robert Milnes says:

    This incident sounds a lot like the incident in Gaza.
    Israel got blamed for deliberately bombing an international school. Again, why?
    Why would the Israelis flagrantly commit an atrocity and unnecessarily contribute to their already abundant PR problems?
    So yes, I am looking at a connection between the two incidents in reference to the possibility of military use by someone of their enemy’s(Israel, U.S.) military.
    Via the local insurgents(Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, Al Qaida, Taliban)
    Who might that be?

    1. Leroy says:

      What incident?

      Provide detailed information link from UNBIASED sourse(s) – as I repeatedly do.

      (I know the incident to which you refer, but have facts wrong and filled with erroneous comments… I just want to see if you can do that or will simply change the subject again!)

  14. Robert Milnes says:

    “status as high level amateur military historian…”?
    How old are you, Leroy?

    1. Leroy says:

      One last current reply here… until I see evidence that provided unbiased factual links have been read in detail.

      I am in my mind 60s. I have been married over 45 years. We had 5 children and over 10 grandchildren.

      How old are YOU?

      What is your military service history?

      What is your history of any other long-term service to your Country or region? (Rightwing militia movement membership NOT counting).

      (I have both)

  15. Robert Milnes says:

    The Taliban via sympathizers/agents/operatives imbedded in the Afghan forces.

    1. Leroy says:

      That sounds like nothing more than an opinion to me (*) and you know what they say about opinions (**)… especially when NO FACTS HAVE EVER BEEN PRESENTED BY YOU AS TO THIS CAPABILITY BY THE TALIBAN – NOR HOW TALIBAN ALLIES COULD GET THIS INFORMATION TO THEM IN A USABLE FORM! The Afghan National Forces do not control or have ANYTHING to do with our combat aircraft strikes forces (and their Air Force flies nothing more sophisticated than propeller-driven light aircraft and low-tech helicopters (idiot).

      And ignores the fact that you cannot grasp that we have ALREADY admitted to doing this!!!!

      I truly and absolutely believe that you haven’t read even one provided link.

      And WHY would someone be that way? Because they don’t want factual data to interfere with their fantasy world!

      (*) Opinions – when not backed by verifiable factual data – are like a$$holes… everyone has one!

      (**) “You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.” — Daniel Patrick Moynihan (American Statesman)

  16. Leroy says:

    Patriotism is a lively sense of collective responsibility.

    Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on its own dunghill and calling for larger spurs and brighter beaks….

    – Richard Aldington

    In this Age of Information, ignorance of the facts is a PERSONAL choice – of bias, discrimination, and prejudice.

    Ignorance in this Age of Information is offensive to the point of being an abomination!

    And, in a battle of wits, logic, and facts, I refuse to debate an unarmed person.

  17. Robert Milnes says:

    Leroy, Boy have you got me wrong! I’m not a right wingnut. But you evidently have a hard on for getting me banned from this sight.
    I don’t believe a word you write. Your motive is clear to me.
    You say the bombing had no rationale other than just another target(paraphrasing).
    That betrays a clear disdain for the U.S. military.
    I’ve heard of fire for effect-at military targets. But I’ve never heard of fire for shits and giggles.
    Go to Hell whatever Godforsaken vermin you are.

    1. Leroy says:

      YOU have no right to talk about ANYTHING that is military oriented, being a Chickenhawk piece of chicken$hit!!!

      A clear disdain for the U. S. military? I served and honorably, not like you (the Chickenhawk chicken$hit that you are). One who stood to, who manned the walls for this (in your case obscene) freedom of speech that allows you to spout this vile garbage.

      (Though doesn’t require private blog owners to put up with such utter borderline criminal nonsense)

      And one who claims to be libertarian and yet supports the American military no matter what the evidence – and sprouts fictitious “information” about our own history.

      Patriotism is a lively sense of collective responsibility.

      Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on its own dunghill and calling for larger spurs and brighter beaks….

      – Richard Aldington

      In this Age of Information, ignorance of the facts is a PERSONAL choice – of bias, discrimination, and prejudice.

      Ignorance in this Age of Information is offensive to the point of being an abomination!

      And, in a battle of wits, logic, and facts, I refuse to debate an unarmed person.

  18. Robert Milnes says:

    Information about me is readily available at my linked campaign website.
    Your link goes nowhere.
    What that about, Leroy? Got something to hide?

    1. Leroy says:

      Funny, I don’t see ANYTHING about YOU! Who you are, what you do, what you did on that LINK to your name (that you put there, that YOU linked your Username to). That “Leroy” is just that, a username. It isn’t linked to anything. As would be the case to MOST individuals on this blog (especially those as narcissistic – yet so utterly ignorant – as you). There might be somebody else, but in my quick scanning, I haven’t found anyone else so linked. What is it that they’re hiding Mickey Mouse?

      I see your linkage go to a Blog that is simply loaded with a multitude of seemingly Libertarian comments and articles. Even once using the term “progressive libertarian”.

      Sorry, but “Libertarians” (they should be ashamed of using that term) are in fact about as right-wing as one can get. While preaching “individual freedom”, in truth they are one short step away from Fascism.

      And the icing on the cake is then your extreme anti-Semetic and fantasyland conspiratorial theory.

      From reading a great many of your “articles”, I did find for example, that you live or lived in a trailer park and never served in the military (*) and that’s about it. If you ever mention your age, being married, children, line of work, etcetera, it was in one of the articles that I didn’t read (there was a lot of nausea and gagging involved).

      (*) Quote:

      “Just before Viet Nam war another uncle, Bob, was in the Army and Army Reserves. During most of the Viet Nam war, I was too young. When I turned 18 in 1970 I had a high draft number and student deferment. I decided not to enlist.”


      Well, I too was too young for “most of the Vietnam War”….but not all. I enlisted in the Marine Corps at age 17 (serving in the late 1960s – early 1970s; you might look up WestPac, I Corps aka Eye Corps – but you won’t bother).

      After release from active duty, I went directly into a law enforcement career (with the entire time in Operations – on the street – duties with over 15 years in SWAT and retiring as a ranking officer – which is why one like myself doesn’t link to narcissistic blogs or personal webpages or even having a Facebook account… not a good idea when you have been responsible for putting some major truly Bad Guys away – or worse).

      Then after retiring and moving from a major metropolitan area to a village, I served two terms as an elected official (a Progressive Democrat) within that village…. (have you been elected to ANYTHING?).

      Your rightwing status is more than proven… you hide behind a libertarian title that is in fact a nest of fascist ideology with your anti-Semitic rants.

      Another hint? Your “jackboot” knee-jerk response to frantically and shrilly defend the American military in the Doctors Without Borders hospital aerial attack. True libertarians (still rightwing, just not as far right as you) are AUTOMATICALLY suspicious of the military – and absolutely refuse to accept their word for ANYTHING.

      So you’re clearly not a true libertarian.


      You’re not only a right-wing wingnut extremist, you’re also one of those “Chickenhawks”, right? Never served yourself, but support American military power to the extreme when it coincides with your personal beliefs and agendas (like a good little Neo Con).

      Your wingnut status is fully proven by your own writings. Anti-Semitic is actually such a mild term (way too mild for your positions – BTW, you have no clue as to the full story of the evolution into full statehood by Israel – and I am assuredly NOT an automatic Israeli supporter; I believe that there SHOULD be a recognized state and that Israel is internally drifting more and more towards becoming an apartheid state)… Your “Final Solution” article was, well, not so much fascinating as nauseating and hideous… but interesting enough for further discussion. Here.

      (I wonder if the SPLC knows about your political party “organization” and Stormfront type writings?

      And, on top of that, so many of your “linked blog” articles are simply so very wrong.

      But I’ll look at addressing those (like how your so erroneously compare Mossad as being the Israeli equivalent of the FBI… oh my, LMAO. The Mossad is the direct equivalent of the CIA, not the FBI… but then, like with anything else, why let facts interfere with your opinionated fantasyland).

  19. Robert Milnes says:

    Leroy, LOL! So you have a cover story all ready. And the “fact” that you in SWAT etc. locked up so many bad guys now that you have retired, your excuse for anonymity.
    More like you were given witness protection by the fbi for ratting out fellow rats. Then assigned to fuck with me for some reason. Your amateur military history buff status?
    OK so Mossad corresponds to CIA. So what the fbi recruited the Israeli cia/mossad to do their dirty work in the usa. Indirectly recruiting 6 million jewish Americans-including You?
    Face it, until you Leroy link to SOMETHING tracable back to YOU, you can say anything here and so can I-about you. Speculation.
    Ratted out fellow rats for fbi, that’s my estimate/guess so far.
    You do have a point about the libertarians. They are so infiltrated by neocons e.g. Ron Paul and reactionary conservatives e.g. Bob Barr, that they do often come off as right wingers.

    1. Leroy says:


      You don’t link ANYTHING about the REAL you.

      No more than I do.

      A bunch of crazy (literally) articles about your supposed beliefs does NOT constitute ANY information about you – other than where you slipped and admitted that you are a cowardly Chickenhawk (*) piece of chicken$hit; a Teddie Nugent / Rush Limbaugh / Dick Cheney combination Draft Dodging, Chickenhawk Chicken$hit!

      Actually while I believe that part to all be true, I seriously believe that YOU are the plant. Your involvement with all the various libertarian parties, even the Green Party. Your list of contacts. Your repeated “presidential campaign runs” (knowing that they are going nowhere). Your fictitious “blog” (as evidenced by pretty much ZERO comments). The pretended ignorance and mental illness.


      WHO are your handlers?

      One might be tempted to think the KGB / FSB – but that would be the disinformation campaign, right?

      Disinformation and streamed in general…

      As the Agency taught YOU:

      “When channels of information cannot be completely closed, they can be rendered useless by filling them with disinformation, effectively lowering their signal-to-noise ratio and discrediting the opposition by association with many easily disproved false claims… In politics, disinformation is the deliberate attempt to deflect voter support of an opponent, disseminating false statements of innuendo based on a candidate’s vulnerabilities as revealed by opposition research. In both cases, it also includes the distortion of true information in such a way as to render it useless. Disinformation may include distribution of forged documents, manuscripts, and photographs, or spreading dangerous rumours and fabricated intelligence…. And…

      “False flag (or black flag) describes covert operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by persons,entities, groups, or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them… While false flag operations originate in warfare and government, they also can occur in civilian settings among certain factions, such as businesses, special interest groups, religions, political ideologies and campaigns for office… Political campaigning has a long history of this tactic in various forms, including in person, print media and electronically in recent years. This can involve when supporters of one candidate pose as supporters of another, or act as ‘straw men’ for their preferred candidate… A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent. The so-called typical “attacking a straw man” argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent’s proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., stand up a straw man) and then to refute or defeat that false argument (knock down a straw man) instead of the original proposition… ”

      That describes YOU to a “T”.

      That describes your actions on numerous blogs – including this one. That describes your actions on your own blog. That describes your actions on your inactive (for now, buried like a Commie sleeper cell) presidential campaign site. That describes your attacks and harassment towards me.

      That describes this whole situation completely accurately.

      My guess is that your handlers are Israeli, likely Mossad (while the Mossad would NOT be like the FBI in Israel, the Mossad WOULD be Israel’s CIA equivalent as far as handling covert operations – and converts operatives / turncoat such as you in another country… such as in the United States). The perfect cover story for a Mossad operative (I believe that they totally circumvent the FBI and DOJ) is who you claim to be, NOT who I am! I would be the opposite of their needs. They need a Black Flag, a Straw Man who publicly attacks them, who openly professes an anti-Semitic stance.

      Your co Dr is (almost, not quite) “perfect” – they never factored in your narcissism and worsening mental illness.

      I am sorry (not really), but your “over acting” and excessive persistence at making nonsensical points were your undoing… and YOU have been outed!

      I believe that EVERY libertarian organization should be alerted to this information as your target assignment clearly has been to name names and create chaos and confusion amongst their ranks.

      The “perfect” Black Flag and Straw Man has collapsed.





    2. Robert Milnes says:

      Leroy, johnny come lately commenter on irregular times. Schmoozing with the fool writers.
      Still no link to ANYTHING from Leroy.
      “…NOT who I am!” Who are you? We have ONLY what you comment. No link to anything.
      Contrast-this is my FOURTH run at third party nominations. All public. Videotaped debates etc. Many photos of me on the web. Many from The Saturnalian screengrabs.
      YOU are the one with the good cover story.
      Keep blathering idiot. You are outing yourself.
      Cookie, are you falling for this person’s BS?

      1. Leroy says:

        Good attempt.

        Continue trying to deflect ANY focus away from WHO you are. Not what articles and blog comments you post, but WHO are you. Not specifying any personal information (although I know it – between the lovely Google and snippets of your own submissions here and there.

        As a good covert straw man, you accuse in generalities – but ALWAYS aggressively attack ANYONE who disagrees with you…And do so relentlessly – exactly what a good false flag operation demands.

        That and demand SPECIFICS from your “enemy” while only providing generalities about yourself, the personal you – not a bunch of blog posts that are a part of your cover.

        And continuing to fully ducking the fact of being a Chickenhawk. As specifics would show that you were 18 in 1970 and had 2-3 years there where you could have served with honor during the active part of the war.

        High draft number? No, not based on your DOB. Draft deferment for student purposes. Apparently seeing as how you claim to have attended three colleges – but graduating from none – no big deal, I attended multiple colleges AFTER MY VOLUNTARY MILITARY SERVICE for specific classes with no interest in a degree… And I never used any college attendance to file for student deferment (which is a proactive action that you had to do, the Selective Service didn’t automatically track people and determine their status (In various duties that coincided with Army units, I served with a number of individuals who declined to use their student deferment, put their college on hold and accepted their Drafting – or even enlisted).

        But then your handlers NEED a Chickenhawk in their flock. Someone like me is the LAST person that they would want.

        But someone who is homeless (evicted from a trailer park where they were renting), lives in an old beat-Up RV, apparently unemployed (living off the government, dumpster diving, expressing fantasies about presidential campaigns, filing supposed legal actions – mainly letters of demands – to judicial bodies, etcetera…. THAT is exactly the type that “they” need for their Blag Flag straw man! Who would suspect him??? Bingo! Outed!

        But you seem to be starting to lose it.

        Fearful that the libertarian community (your assigned target) – which was already distancing itself – will now discover the truth (the outing) and that your masters will be “displeased” – to say the least?

        Your comments are getting more frantic – and now appeals to “Cookie” (hey, old buddy, you aren’t buying all of this are you… please, please tell me that you aren’t).


        As to links, my position here was to counter those initial lies that you posted as part of your apparent cover story. In that regard, I posted a HUGE number of links. You made no numerous comments, but posted NO links showing any factual connections to those opinions. My position was not to pump up my ego and flaunt a narcissistic attitude with “who” that I am.

        I more than achieved that agenda (facts versus fantasyland opinion) when YOU started with personal attacks.

  20. Robert Milnes says:

    If the splc wants to screw with me, bring it.
    What is the full story of the formation of Israel? After trying and failing- Zionists- to take over Germany?
    Now they are trying to take over USA.
    Chickenhawk? Depends on your definition. If I am an unpaid freedom fighter against fbi/mossad, RobertLeMagne, then not.
    Remember, Bruce Reilly pointed a 357 close range in my face.

  21. Leroy says:

    Ahhh… very good.

    Pretend you don’t even know what a Chickenhawk (*)) is.

    Pretending to not know about the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and then of 1926. Long, long before the 1947 UN Partition Plan (which was based on those Declarations)… but of course you KNOW all of that.

    And such great language. Do your handlers give you free rein to develop that language, or do they coach you?

    Of course you would pull a GWB type comment like “Bring it on” – I really laughed my ass off on that one. Of course you would express that attitude, now that I have revealed that the SLPC and your handlers (and YOU) are really all on the same side!

    And throwing out that story (as in lie) about “Bill Reilly” was especially cute. I mean that is such COMMON KNOWLEDGE… like EVERYBODY recalls that incident.

    Slither back to your handlers and tell them that you went overboard and truly overdid it this time and that you have been absolutely outed.

    (*) Chickenhawk

  22. Robert Milnes says:

    Leroy/ElRey, you sound a LOT like paulie of IPR.
    I think you got the bill reilly story wrong. I was referring to childhood friend, homeboy, Bruce Reilly. see Reilly v State of NJ 1984. Basically he dragged me to a bar near mutual friend Patti Blumenstein-jewish- lived, and wound up kidnapping the bouncer. I’ve heard he is dead-stabbed in a bar. But who knows? Maybe the fbi/Mossad wants everybody to think he is dead. To escape Grand Jury investigations?
    If as I allege there have been several attempts to assault/assassinate me, then I equate that to military combat. RobertLeMagne in action against a cabal of fbi/mossad traitors and international murderers in mostly covert actions,
    then I’m no chickenhawk.
    How can I be on the same side of the splc if I am a right wingnut chickenhawk?
    No, the mossad is trying to jacket me with that label as in “snitch jacket”. Google that, fool.
    Also the label of mentally ill.
    If depression is mental illness, then I and a lot of others are.
    What is your excuse for being a traitor, rat, spy and cowardly backstabber, jewish/Zionist fascist?

    1. Leroy says:

      Still trying to pretend that you don’t know how a Black Flag / False at operation (and being a Straw Man) works, eh? You keep ducking that!

      And your attempt to characterize that your being “in action” (with writing posts and letters) against a mythical Mossad / Whoever “cabal” is sickening… and does dishonor to EVERY veteran who truly served (while you hid behind student deferments and a “refusal to enlist”!

      YOU (being the turncoat mole that you must be – unless you are really seriously crazy) already know this, but that type of blathering rightwing Nazi befriending chicken$hit Chickenhawk idiot who can slither into the folds of MULTIPLE Libertarian (and Green and Nazi) organizations is THE PERFECT person for the Black Flag Ops that the Mossad / FBI would absolutely want!

      THAT is where all your name cling falls apart.

      The finger that you point? It points back to yourself!

      1. Leroy says:

        What a nauseating, cowardly statement:

        “If as I allege there have been several attempts to assault/assassinate me, then I equate that to military combat. RobertLeMagne in action against a cabal of fbi/mossad traitors and international murderers in mostly covert actions, then I’m no chickenhawk”

        That statement alone makes you even more of a Chickenhawk. The type that lives under rocks and slithered away when the rock is turned over and exposed to The Light (of the Truth).

        You are beyond a sick person.

        Your mental problems go WAY beyond chronic depression!

  23. Robert Milnes says:

    Leroy, yeah, lotta links. But NONE to Leroy.
    Who are you, Leroy?
    Maybe you are a supercomputer program run by the fbi/mossad coordinated in Quantico and Haifa?
    What happened to William S. Saturn, supercomputer?

    1. Leroy says:

      The post being addressed was about a TOPIC….not an individual.

      That topic was about the U. S. Military bombing a hospital.

      Ergo, that’s what my links SHOULD have dealt with.

      Not about me (and YOUR links don’t reference YOU – they just talk about things of your (delusional, fantasyland) beliefs.

      I am not a narcissistic, ego-driven unemployed homeless fool who has the obsession with being “important” – which you are… to NOBODY (other than your handlers!).

      Keep playing the game.

      Fewer and fewer are believing you now.

  24. Leroy says:

    This is the most recent confessions from the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital that we didn’t do (eye roll).

    But then an American general (a top tier one) in Afghanistan admits that we did… and that it was gross negligence (at the least – this might very well be the best cover story that they felt could fly).

    And note this AC-130 gunship was attacking the hospital by repeatedly shelling it with an extremely accurate 105mms cannon that is mounted (along with several other weapon systems) on the airplane.

    No blame to the Taliban (supposedly) calling in fake coordinates. Nor the Taliban providing (somehow) incorrect GPS coordinates to our smart bombs (as none were used, some poster jumped to a major faulty conclusion there). No blame to the Afghan ANG troops falsely claiming that they were taking fire from this hospital. The Afghan troops and their advisors were taking fire from a completely different building, not even that close by… and American advisers gave GPS coordinates to what ended up being a field. So rather than insist on corrected coordinates, the aircrew simply chose the largest building closest to that field and target it (that of course being the Doctors Without Borders hospital).

    1. Leroy says:

      Continuing the official story (how many times did the official story change when Ranger Pat Tillman turned out to have actually been killed by friendly fire?).

    1. Leroy says:

      Remember …”still I don’t see that-punitive bombing- happening.
      More possible, even likely, a false report of Taliban incursion/emergency and exact gps coordinates.
      By who? THE TALIBAN!
      Someone gave them U.S. tactical reporting info. Iran, Russia, China, N.Korea etc.
      Sounds much more likely to me. Even more likely than a rogue operation.
      Those rogues would get caught and busted before they could park their plane…”???

      And none of those versions happened.

      And the “explanation” (not even a true semi apology) never addressed the repeated calls by the staff at the Doctors Without Borders hospital to American military and State Department authorities that they were being shelled by an AMERICAN gunship (AC130) and that they refused to order the shelling to stop.

      THAT makes it deliberate. That’s why that’s not being strongly addressed. If everything up to that point is this weird combination of technical problems, human error, poor decisions, miscommunication, etcetera, is true, the refusal to act on the pleading communications makes it deliberate and the war crime that even certain nay sayers referred to as a war crime.

    2. Leroy says:

      (The United States has changed its version of events FOUR times… Also note that the NATO Command and Afghan National Government investigations are still going on)

      (Death toll ended up reaching 42)

      “There are, in fact, contexts in which a hospital can be attacked, such as if the site is controlled and occupied by those that can be legally targeted, like Taliban combatants. Similarly, while intent is an element of many war crimes, in a case of targeting, the failure to engage in adequate measures to protect civilians can constitute a violation of the law even where there was no intent to cause harm.”

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