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John Hagee Speaks: Apparently, Shame isn’t Biblical

You’re Pastor John Hagee.

You’ve just spent over a year shooting video after video making prophecies . You’ve been making big profits selling over a million of your CDs and DVDs and Books declaring that by the lunar eclipse of September 27, 2015 “Something is About to Change,” something big that you declare in italics are “the signs” of the Bible foretelling the apocalypse. Apparently, after the apocalypse Hagee Ministries will still need a large bank balance:

Pastor John Hagee, Retailing the Apocalypse for $20 (DVD), $14 (Book), $12 (CD) -- not including shipping and handling charges

You’re Pastor John Hagee. It’s October now, past the last date of the last of the four “Blood Moons” you said would herald “the signs” of End Times. But no apocalypse. And nothing, nothing really, has changed at all. Except we have new shows on NBC now. There is that.

You’re Pastor John Hagee. So what are you going to do?

Not apologize.
Not slink off into the shadows.
Not return all the money you made off a false promise.

No, no. You’re Pastor John Hagee, not some everyday plebe. You’re going to sell your new book on TV making new unproven declarations:

John Hagee, Fresh off an Utterly False Prophecy, Heads onto TV on October 5 to Start Selling A New Fake Prophecy

The new predictions of apocalypse are retailing for $90, $15, or $42 (plus shipping and handling), depending on how you want to best subsidize Pastor John Hagee’s next fine meal:

John Hagee Sells The Three Heavens for Profit, Even with his Track Record of Having No Idea What He's Talking About

Are you buying?

85 thoughts on “John Hagee Speaks: Apparently, Shame isn’t Biblical”

  1. Larry says:

    No… I am NOT buying this BS.

    But likely WILL read it.

    But fortunately our library (itself a multi-library district) is a part of a very large multi-county major metropolitan library network. And across the scores of libraries there are generally one or two libraries that have a copy of Hagee’s various works (to even include novels), so I do get the opportunity to read his material now and then.

    Hagee in fact already has related follow-Up to “The Three Heavens”.

    It is “Angels and Demons: A Companion to the Three Heavens” and is over $11.00 for a paperback book.

    I noted that the earliest book in the network was from 1996 and was “Beginning of the End
    The Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and the Coming Antichrist”!!! (Uh, that’s like almost 20 years ago).

    I see that he likes “numbering things”. In 2004 he had a book titled “Seven Secrets” (which was a move to cash in on the non Biblical, non Christian movement of “The Secret”… but, hey, anything for a buck; I am sure that Yeshua had people’s this in mind when he so strongly condemned Mammon).

  2. Bob in Ohio says:

    I put Mr. Hagee in the same trash can as a long list of money-grubbers using-religion-to-get-rich, like Rex Humbard (check out the Internet for “Rex’s Erection” in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio) and “let me see your private parts” Ernest Angley, exposed–pun intended–by the Akron Beacon Journal newspaper. Angley bought the Cathedral of Tomorrow from Humbard for $2.5 million. We could talk about Jim Bakker—should still be in jail–only did 8 of his 20 year sentence for the $60 million fraud / Ponzi scheme, the Crouch crowd and the long and stinky list of carnival sideshow wannabes who call themselves “reverends”, “pastors” and “preachers.” Consider that Rex Humbard, the tent preacher who created the Cathedral of Tomorrow in Cuyahoga Falls, had a restaurant, called The Cathedral Buffet (!), attached to the “church” that was open to the public and was actually a Preacher’s Ponderosa. Additionally, Humbard owned a womens’ under-garment factory in Indiana (yep, making bras and panties, slips, etc.) AND Humbard listed the business as part of the church!!! So, he used the 501(c)(3) charitable status of his “church” to not pay taxes on the underwear factory! AND, I’m NOT making that up! The IRS, slow as molasses in the Arctic, didn’t do anything about Humbard’s beyond-outrageous behavior for over 20 years. See, if you want to get rich and use charitable status to load your wallet fast, just call yourself “pastor”, “preacher” or “reverend”, and set up a “church.” It’s been done 1,000’s of times and all over our country. You would think that some people would see these charlatans for the phonies they are, but remember what P.T. Barnum said, “A sucker is born every minute.” Now it’s every nanosecond, thanks to computer technology.

    1. Leroy says:

      Wow. I recall everyone of those. The NE Ohio ones covered by (as I recall) the Akron Beacon Journal, the Cleveland Plain Dealer, and the Old (now defunct I believe) Cleveland Press. With many of the stores getting picked up by the wire and going national / international.

      Personally I believe that the IRS is INTENTIONALLY slow (and even non responsive often) on so many of these very clear legal violations because of the perceived power of the “born again fundamentalist movement” that has been present.

      I recall, when a young lad and living with my grandparents in a fundamentalist Southern state (well Border State to be fully accurate), my grandmother sending tons of money to the early TV evangelists – Rex Humbard, Oral Roberts, Herbert Armstrong, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etcetera. Her “donations” we’re so extensive that they are up my grandparents fairly decent savings and forced my grandfather to come out of his somewhat early retirement and go back to work (working up until the day he died in his 70s of heart failure… killed by Televangelism IMO).

      To grasp how many Televangelists there are, see:

      (To me the list isn’t fully complete as I would include people like Super Mormon Glenn Beck)


      (Really covers few of the Big Name violators)

      Even better:

      1. Leroy says:

        Ahhh.. here we go.

        “Ernest Angley, the famed 93-year-old evangelist who presides over Grace Cathedral in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio.”

        Read more:

        Which discusses how investigative reporting by an Akron Beacon Journal reporter “took down” Ernest Angley, the 93-year old (and very corrupt) evangelist.

  3. ella says:

    False Prophets, Anti-Christs. They have always been here and will be until.. That will probably come as a surprise to them. It is like someone saying that the U.S. dollar will disappear! Buy gold and silver! For outrageous amounts of dollars. And if those dollars are not going to be here, if you will need gold to barter for a loaf of bread, what will the seller of gold and silver do with all those dollars?

    But if you want to put back some extra food and water for an emergency, maybe a generator, that makes sense. The power might be out for several days in a snow storm – rain storm – or hurricane.

  4. Tom says:

    i can’t help it, every time i see this guy i think “Boss Hogg!”

    1. Leroy says:



      Only worse!

  5. Leroy says:
  6. Leroy says:

    Or as so aptly spelled out here:

    “Televangelism has become a business, where preachers work towards better rating and more donations.

    It takes the Scriptures out of context to manipulate people to give, often beyond their means. It is estimated to be a several billion dollars business that preys on the elderly (mostly women), the poor, the biblically illiterate, and the desperate; all in the name of God.

    And it is not just a handful of television preachers, it is most of them. One reason is that there is no accountability for televangelists. If you sent money to any of them, you most likely helped that particular preacher to pay for his jet or his mansion.

    The lavish lifestyle of these televangelists do not reflect in any way the sacrificial life that Jesus and his disciples lived.

    But incredibly, some television preachers actually claim that Jesus was rich. And there is a wide audience that believe that, and any thing else that they say.

    Those people are fooled simply because they DO NOT KNOW THE BIBLE.

    If they did, no preacher could lie to them because they would immediately realize that those teachings contradict what the Bible says. The Bible repeatedly warns people about all these false teachers; … although not even that is a guarantee, since people can be so easily blinded to the truth.

    What that people reflect is the state of today’s society AND of the Christian religion…

    The biggest reason for people being misled is that the Christian religion has created a system of performers, in the form of clergy and preachers, and a passive audience warming the pews.

    This audience do not take an active role in searching for truth, learning the Bible, or asking God to guide them, but rely on others (evangelists) to show them the way.

      1. ella says:

        Leroy: “With CUFI, which Hagee has said will cause a “political earthquake,” the televangelist aims to put the political organizing muscle of the conservative evangelical movement behind his grand plan for a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming of Christ.” Taken from your link to:

        There are many articles, this first one I’m reading is good. 🙂 So many refer to “The Rapture”, but I have yet to find reference to it in The Bible. I have heard of a few verses that are being interpreted as a sort of resurrection and/or taking away of the living prior to “Tribulation”. But the word “rapture” is not in the Bible, according the the Strong’s Concordance. Can you justify the use of that term, and it’s related meaning, being used in the context of “teaching The Bible?” Who first used it and when? I’ve heard it was in the 1830’s or somewhere around that.

        1. Leroy says:

          That is a very interesting point.

          The word Rapture is NOT ever mentioned in the Bible.

          There are two sections of scripture that people who push the Rapture concept use to try and justify it… but the two scriptures do not.

          Those would be:

          1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
          1 Corinthians 15:50-54

          As one well versed site addresses this (and points out how people can interpret something to supposedly mean something that clearly it doesn’t), see:

          But, yes, the IDEA of a Rapture (an idea that originated outside the Bible) came from the earlier 1800s…

          “…pite these claims, Christian philosopher William Lane Craig rejects much of what Rhodes and Rosenberg have to say about the rapture and the events as depicted in “Left Behind.” In fact, Craig has gone as far as to call the rapture unbiblical in recent interviews and proclamations.

          ‘The rapture was made up by someone in the 1800s, and the story caught on among some groups who still believe it today,’ he told Charisma News. ‘The simple truth is that it is not biblical, nor was it ever the historic position of the Christian church.’

          Craig said that many people have simply grown up in Christian homes where the rapture has been taught as fact, leading many Bible-believers never to question the merits of the theological construct.

          In fact, he argues that the idea came from a man named John Darby back in 1827 and that Darby’s take on the scriptures was simple inaccurate. Additionally, he said the theory was embedded in the Scofield Reference Bible, a popular study Bible — a fact that assisted in its prevalence in Christian circles.

          While some believers look to Paul’s words in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 when validating a rapture view, Craig said that they end up confusing the rapture with the second coming of Christ.

          Nothing in the text, the philosopher maintains, backs the notion that Paul is speaking about anything other than this latter event… ”

          So you have the fans of all those “Left Behind” novels and films (invariably of horrible quality if you’ve ever read or watched them)….but that’s exactly what they are PURE fiction…

          “In other words, there will be no Rapture like the one the Left Behind books talk about. The Left Behind books teach the opposite of what Scripture actually says.

          John Martignoni is a nationally-known Catholic apologist and Bible scholar. He is the Founder and President of the Bible Christian Society…”

        2. Leroy says:

          And Hagee and ones like him (and the CUFI) totally NEED the idea of this Rapture as a critical part of their non Biblical End Times preaching.

          You scare the Heck out of people and then plan on taking in yet more donations!

          1. Charles Manning says:

            Wikipedia has the following in its article about CUFI:

            “CUFI Florida state director Scott Thomas, who is senior pastor at Without Walls Central in Lakeland, Florida, states that CUFI’s support of Israel is not related to Christian eschatology (one of the features of dispensationalism, which holds that the modern state of Israel has a central role in bringing about the second coming of Jesus Christ) since Christians believe that there is nothing they can do to speed up that process. Thomas also cited Chapter 12 of Book of Genesis, which states that God will bless those who bless the Jews and curses those who curse the Jews, and said that his Christian faith couldn’t exist without the foundation of Judaism.

            “. . . Rabbi Shlomo Riskin . . . confronted Hagee with the question about his love for the Jewish nation, ‘Do you love us because you want to convert us?’ Hagee replied, ‘”I love you because of Genesis 12:3 when the Lord says to Abraham, ‘I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you’. I want to be blessed and not cursed, Rabbi.”

            What do you think of the Wikipedia account?

          2. Leroy says:

            I think that the Wikipedia article, as it’s wording clearly indicates, these are both quoted from individuals, not facts.

            One is from Hagee himself (as president of the Christians United For Israel organization) and the other is from the head of the Florida state chapter.

            And they stated pretty much what I expected that they would say for public consumption.

            As did Glenn Beck (a devout Mormon) said at the CUFI meeting in July:

            Glenn Beck traveled to Washington, DC to address John Hagee’s annual Christians United for Israel conference where he delivered remarks that were predictably filled with Bible prophecy, doom and gloom, and dire warnings about the need to turn this nation back to God.

            During his speech, Beck boldly declared that the United States was “established for the establishment of Israel,” meaning that the United States was established by God specifically for the purpose of re-establishing the nation of Israel.

            Actually, an article by a journalist who went undercover at their national summit meeting back in 2008 was a lot more revealing:


            The entire article is revealing, but especially troubling (to me) was:

            While Hagee tries to distance his eschatology from his support for Israel, it bears mentioning that the two are actually inexorably linked. In early 2007, Hagee participated in a conference call with bloggers and denied that eschatology plays any part in his support for Israel.

            But as Bruce Wilson, who monitors the religious right on the blog Talk2Action, pointed out in April:

            ‘Pastor Hagee’s words were directly contradicted by literature from Hagee’s very own San Antonio Cornerstone Church magazine, which exhorts readers to ‘Become a Part of the Fulfillment of Prophecy’ by sending money to help Jews resettle in Israel’.

            It is standard to Christian Apocalyptic Premillennial Dispensationalist eschatology that Jews must be encouraged to return to Israel where, according to the prophetic tradition, most of them will be killed in the Tribulation, Apocalypse and battle of Armageddon except for a ‘REMNANT’, generally held to number (ONLY) 144,000 Jews who have converted to Christianity, who will survive and serve as evangelical “super-Billy Grahams” who will convert all of humanity, surviving the expected (nuclear) end-times conflict, to Christianity.

            It was, in fact, part of this form of eschatology that got Hagee in hot water earlier this year and caused the presumptive Republican nominee for president, John McCain, to publicly repudiate Hagee and renounce his long-sought endorsement. In audio of a sermon released on the Internet by Wilson, Hagee expressed a view that Hitler had been a tool of God to fulfill a prophecy from the Book of Jeremiah in which God sends ‘hunters” after the Jews to drive them into the Holy Land. Hagee said the passage of scripture ‘describe(s) what Hitler did in the Holocaust.’ ”

            BTW, you left out this part from that Wikipedia article:

            “Rabbi Eric Yoffie, who has publicly disagreed with Hagee, wanted Jews to stop cooperating with CUFI, because Yoffie felt CUFI had an unacceptable political agenda.”

            Apparently the Rabbi didn’t buy into Hagee’s pubic pronouncements either.

          3. Leroy says:

            Maybe this helps explain the religious Jewish belief more specifically:


            “Why Don’t Jews Believe in Jesus”



            What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

            A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

            B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

            C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)

            D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).

            The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

            Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.



            Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets—Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

            Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.


            According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

            The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father—and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David!


            The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

            Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), “He does not observe Shabbat!”



            Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text—which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

            A. VIRGIN BIRTH

            The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

            B. CRUCIFIXION

            The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: “Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet.” The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word “gouged.” Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: “They pierced my hands and feet.”


            Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the “suffering servant.”

            In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews (“Israel”) are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

            Ironically, Isaiah’s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews weretortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

            From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nazianzus, wrote: “A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire.”

            For further reading on the “suffering servant”:

            See also:


            by Rabbi Shraga Simmons

          4. Leroy says:

            Maybe this also explains that difference… but now from a Christian perspective:


            From the Preamble:

            The vast majority of churches believe and teach “replacement theology”. Churches that oppose “replacement theology” including JOHN HAGEE, are in the minority. Those who believe in Replacement Theology love the state of Israel and are among her strongest supporters! Just because we do not feel modern Israel is any more special in the eyes of God than Canada or the USA, we defend and support the only democracy in the Middle east and consider Israel our primary ally (there)…We believe that Israel was granted legal title to the historic promised land through the Balfour Declaration (1917) and the League of Nations “Mandate for Palestine” of December 1922 (so for secular, legal reasons)… We oppose those who boycott Israel and prefer Israeli made products over anything made in Muslim countries because of their high quality… SO DON’T CALL US ANTI-SEMETIC. It makes you look dumb and uninformed.

            Like all Christians we believe all Jews, Muslims and unbelievers are lost until they believe Jesus rose from the dead, repented and are immersed in water for the remission of their sins… and by the way, Jesus was a Jew NOT a Palestinian. Jesus was born a Jew and lived as a Jew, keeping the Law of Moses perfect and sinless. IT ANGERS US THAT JEWS REFUSE TO ACTUALLY READ THE NEW TESTAMENT… ”

            Then from there it gets into the main meat of the Intro off their position:

            You believe in Replacement theology if…

            Most churches teach replacement theology so this should be quite easy for you to see:

            …you believe the Bible when it says Christians are the true Jews today: Romans 2:28-29: “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. “, “for we [Christians] are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, ” (Philippians 3:3)

            …you believe that Israel is the church: “For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel [church] of God.” (Galatians 6:15-16) The peace in this passage is for those who walk according to Christ so CANNOT refer to fleshly/physical Israel that utterly rejects Christ.

            …you believe Jews must believe in Jesus to be saved and are as lost as Muslims and atheists until they do. (Jn 3:16; Jn 14:6)

            …you believe the New Testament (second covenant) of Jesus Christ replaced the Old Testament (first covenant) Jer 31:31 + Heb 8:6-13

            …you believe that keeping both the First and Second covenants at the same time is like a woman married to two men at the same time (Romans 6:1-7)

            …you believe the body of the Christian is the temple that God dwells in today not some building made of stone, wood or curtains. (1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20)

            …you believe the Saturday Sabbath was abolished and Christians worship on the first day of the week (Sunday).

            …you believe the calendar of 7 Jewish feasts are not to be kept by Christians: Passover (Pesach), Unleavened Bread (Chag Hamotzi), First Fruits (Yom habikkurim), Pentecost (Shavu’ot), Trumpets (Yom Teru’ah), Atonement (Yom Kippur), Tabernacles (Sukkot).

            …you believe that the entire law of Moses has been abrogated and replaced by the law of Christ and that if you want to keep just one part of the law of Moses, YOU MUST KEEP IT ALL!

            …if you believe that you do not need to be circumcised to be saved. Acts 15:1-3

            …if you believe there is no distinction in the mind of God towards all men: Jew or gentile, rich or poor, male or female (Gal 3:28-29)

            1. “Replacement Theology” or “Fulfillment Theology”, also known as “Supersessionism” is the true Bible doctrine that Christians and the Church of Christ replaced the Jews and the nation of Israel.
            2. Jesus taught Replacement Theology.
            3. The apostles taught Replacement Theology.
            4. The apostolic fathers like Justin Martyr taught Replacement Theology.
            5. There is no special plan of salvation today for the Jews. There is one gospel and Jews and Gentiles must obey the same gospel and be saved exactly the same way.
            6. There is nothing in the bible that teaches that at the end of time, God will bring Israel back to Canaan and offer them alone a special salvation merely because they are blood descendants of Abraham.
            7. There is no distinction in God’s eyes today between Jews and Gentiles. Jews who reject Jesus Christ as their messiah are in exactly the same spiritual state as Hindus, Muslims or atheistic evolutionists.
            8. There is not a Jew alive that can prove his Jewish heritage through genealogy.

            Of course there is an even MUCH less flattering view (from a Jew who converted to Christianity) as shown here:


            And here:


            And here:


            Interestingly, these converts are, it seems, American Jews who converted.

            If you look around, there’s a number of links there. Quite interesting, though most throw yet more ice cold water on Hagee’s movement.

            In fact, they even have a page on Hagee:

          5. Leroy says:


            (DNA studies confirm that 97% of people who call themselves Jews, ARE NOT descendents of Abraham.

            In 2001, Dr. Ariella Oppenheim (a Jew), a biologist at Hebrew University, published the first extensive study of DNA and the origin of the Jews. Her research found that virtually all the Jews came from Khazar blood.

            The newest DNA research science from Dr. Eran Elhaik (a Jew) and his associates at the McKusick-Nathans Institute of Genetic Medicine, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, has confirmed that:

            The various groups of Jews in the world today DO NOT share a common genetic origin, and their genome is largely Khazar.

            In fact, DNA research shows that the Palestinians actually have more Israelite blood than do the Khazar ‘Jews!’

            These DNA research results should cause you to question everything you know about modern day Jews and the state of Israel.

            Today they’re called Ashkenazi Jews, but they are a Jew by religion, not by blood. Most of them have Turkish-Mongol DNA.

            The 1905 Jewish Encyclopedia Vol. XI p 533, stated that ‘probably 95% of the persons included in these estimates of Jewish populations are Ashkenazim‘.

            The 1973 Jewish Encyclopedia documents that approximately 90% of the world’s so-called Jews are Khazar. A. N. Poliak, Professor of Medieval Jewish History at Tel Aviv University, says that the majority of Eastern European Jews are Khazar and Japhetic in origin, not Semitic. Immigration statistics indicate approximately 90% of the world’s so-called or self-styled ‘Jews’ living in 42 countries of the world are emigrants of Eastern European Khazar Jews.

            Jesus words that Jerusalem will be “trampled by Gentiles” are confirmed, as 97% of the
            so-called Jews in Israel are Gentiles…

            Their Babylonian Talmud is anti-christ and anti-christian.

            The Ashkenazi Jewish leaders believe that their Babylonian Talmud supersedes the Bible in authority, and it says blasphemous things such as:

            – “Jesus is in hell, being boiled in “hot excrement.” Gittin 57a
            – “Jesus’ mother was a whore who played the harlot with carpenters.” Shabbath 104b
            – “Christians are allied with hell, and Christianity is worse than incest.” Abodah Zara 17a
            – “Just the Jews are humans, the non-Jews are no humans, but cattle.” Kerithuth 6b

            Since their Babylonian Talmud is clearly anti-Christ and anti-Christian, Christians should not support them.


            Their Egyptian Kaballah is based on witchcraft and astrology.

            Gershow Scholem (1897-1982), Professor of Kabbalah at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, said that the Kabbalah contains a great deal of black magic and sorcery, to invoke the powers of devils to disrupt the natural order.

            Since their Egyptian Kaballah is based on witchcraft and astrology, which God forbids, Christians should not support them.)


            (Yes, I know. Creepy David Duke… But the study, with chart, that he cites is in a number of publications… “Evangelicals are just mad about Jews, rating them more highly than they rated any other group. This despite the fact that almost have [sic… half] of Evangelicals don’t even know a single Jew.

            However, this love is far from mutual, as Jews rated Evangelicals LOWER than any other group, even lower than the despised Muslims!)


          6. Leroy says:

            And from another page on the prior site:

            “… The big fish in the pond is Christians United for Israel, which has pastor John Hagee as its posterboy but is actually led by Executive Director David Brog. Brog is not only Jewish, but is in fact the cousin of Israeli Defense Minister and former Prime Minister Ehud Barak…

            In an attempt to direct attention away from their influence over U.S. Middle East policy, the predominantly Jewish pro-Israel lobby sometimes points to the passionate support of many Christian evangelicals — usually referred to as Christian Zionists — for the Jewish state.

            The largest of these Christian Zionist groups, with over one million members, is Christians United for Israel (CUFI); thereby, also making it the largest U.S.-based pro-Israel organization. Most people familiar with the hardline pro-Israel group associate it with John Hagee, the theatrical San Antonio-based pastor who has a large ministry. He is the ceremonial head of the CUFI. But the guy who actually runs the organization, is the much less well known CUFI executive director (David Borg – as corroborated in the Wiki article that you referenced).

            ( – under Executive Positions- and – religion IS listed as Judaism)

            Revealingly, the person directing an organization called “Christians United” is not even a Christian!

            In fact he is a devout Jew which has to be the height of irony in that Judaism has long seen Jesus Christ as one of the worst enemies of the Jewish religion and people.

            The Jewish Talmud, the books of Jewish Law, spews with hatred against Jesus Christ. It says that the Jewish Priests themselves murdered Jesus and further claims that their magicians are torturing Jesus for all of eternity by boiling him in human excrement.
            This is the looney, crazy, insane world of Zio power and how they get away with this incredible manipulation.

            Shamefully, too many Christians don’t even know these things, and by supporting this tribal, racist supremacism, they support the most dedicated enemies of Jesus Christ on Earth. And they besmirch every morality taught by Christianity… his anti-Christian Jewish radical, David Brog, has even admitted that he does not believe in the evangelical theology that he promotes in his “Christians United” organization… In a Q & A with readers of Israel’s Haaretz newspaper some years ago, David Brog was asked if his theology required Israel to be in control of the entire Holy Land. ‘Just to clarify,’ Brog replied, “the evangelical theology I write about is not my theology — I’m Jewish.’…

            Surprising that the research didn’t include that information…

            (Just joking)

          7. Leroy says:

            As to the population of Israel…



            74.9% Judaism (and of those, 43% are “secular” in that they “believe in the Jewish God, but aren’t practicing Jews).

            4% are Other / Unknown

            2% are Christian (only 2% – and most, a vast majority, are Arabs, not Hebrews)

            1.6% are Druze

            There is NO real missionary effort in Israel.

          8. Leroy says:

            As relates to news and media and related type organizations:



            (Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the Union for Reform Judaism, has criticized CUFI and argued that its far-right ideology could threaten the bipartisan support Israel has enjoyed in the United States by driving away young, socially-liberal Jews from supporting Israel. “What they mean by support of Israel and we mean by support of Israel are two very different things,” Yoffie said in a 2008 conference of the Union of Reform Judaism. [In contrast, neoconservative trailbrazer Irving Kristol once said, referring to the beliefs of Christian Zionists, “It is their theology; but it is our Israel.”] Yoffie has on other occasions described CUFI’s John Hagee as someone “who is contemptuous of Muslims, dismissive of gays, possesses a triumphalist theology, and opposes a two-state solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict.”)


            But really, what truly bothers me is that as “Christians” Hagee (and CUFI and his other supporters) are in truth more Orthodox Jews (without the garb and rituals) mixed in with an amount of Christianity… or it is all really about their (true) eschatology beliefs.

          9. Leroy says:




            (As Hagee, etcetera, believe)


            (Long, interesting article, but note: “Take this warning seriously. You now know that the pre-trib rapture stuff is a false teaching, and you’re not going to come back and reign over the Jews with Christ in Jerusalem. Now you need to deal with the task of ministering to the Jews and others. Sure the congregations will need to be set up, ministry offices filled and so forth. As I see it when the true church goes to the Hebrew people with power, in true doctrine, with signs and wonders we will see a lot of them get saved, perhaps not every single one since we are still talking pre-millennial times… ” And actually, converted Christians are DECLINING in Israel)





            (As Judaic religion believes)

            Some detailed descriptive differences:


            And here’s a guy who gets forced out for telling the truth….as the article goes on to explain:


          10. Leroy says:

            A further explanation:




            (. Pat Robertson and Rev. Jerry Falwell have been pro-Israel throughout their careers, beginning two decades before the arrival of the New Christian Right in the late 1970’s. These men are not aberrations. The Trinity Broadcasting Network is equally supportive. So are the best-selling authors who speak for, and influence heavily, Protestant fundamentalism, most notably Hal Lindsey, author of The Late Great Planet Earth (1970), and Tim LaHaye, the husband of Beverly LaHaye of Concerned Women for America, which says on its Web site that it is “the nation’s largest public policy women’s organization.” Rev. LaHaye and his co-author have each earned some $10 million in royalties for their multi-volume futuristic novel, Left Behind. They have a very large audience.

            People may ask themselves, “Why this support?” Fundamentalists earlier in this century were sometimes associated with anti-Semitism. James M. Gray of the Moody Bible Institute in 1927 wrote an editorial favorable to Henry Ford’s Dearborn Independent series on Jews. Gray’s editorial appeared in the Moody Bible Institute Monthly. Arno C. Gabelein, a prominent fundamentalist leader, believed that the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion was a legitimate document. Gabelein’s 1933 book, The Conflict of the Ages, would today be regarded as anti-Semitic.

            Other fundamentalist leaders of the pre-War era, while not anti-Semitic, attempted to maintain neutrality on the issue of Hitler’s persecution of Jews. In his 1977 book, Armageddon Now!, Christian historian Dwight Wilson cites numerous examples of fundamentalist theologians in the late 1930’s who regarded Hitler’s discriminatory policies against Jews as part of God’s judgment on the Jews. He writes: “Pleas from Europe for assistance for Jewish refugees fell on deaf ears, and ‘Hands Off’ meant no helping hand. So in spite of being theologically more pro-Jewish than any other Christian group, the premillennarians also were apathetic. . . .” [pp. 96-97].

            What was it that persuaded almost the entire fundamentalist movement to move from either hostility or neutrality to vocal support of Israel? No single answer will fit every case, but there is a common motivation, one not taken seriously by most people in history: getting out of life alive.

            The Not-Quite Last Things

            The Christian doctrine of eschatology deals with the last things. Sometimes eschatology deals with the personal: the death of the individual. Usually, however, it has to do with God’s final judgment of mankind.

            There have been three main views of eschatology in the history of the church, which theologians classify as premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism. The pre- and post- designations refer to the expected timing of the bodily return of Jesus in the company of angels: before (pre-) the establishment of an earthly kingdom of God, or after (post-) this kingdom has extended its rule across the earth.

            The amillennial view is that the kingdom of God is mainly spiritual. This became the dominant view of Christianity for over a millennium after Augustine’s City of God, with its distinction between the city of God, the church (spiritual and permanent) and the political cities of man (rising and falling). Luther held this eschatological view. Most of the Continental Protestant Reformers of the sixteenth century held it. But seventeenth-century Scottish Presbyterians were more likely to hold the postmillennial view, and they carried it with them when they emigrated to America. Their postmillennialism rested in part on their belief that God will convert the Jews to Christianity as a prelude to the kingdom’s period of greatest expansion, an idea derived from Paul’s Epistle to the church at Rome, chapter 11. Presbyterians are officially commanded to pray for the conversion of the Jews. [Westminster Larger Catechism (1647), Answer 191.] The first generation of Puritan Congregationalists in New England also held similar postmillennial opinions.

            The premillennial view was commonly held in the pre-Augustinian church, although the other views did have defenders. After 1660, premillennialism became increasingly common within American Puritanism. Cotton Mather was a premillennialist. But Jonathan Edwards was postmillennial. In nineteenth-century America, both views were common prior to the Civil War. After the War, premillennialism steadily replaced postmillennialism among fundamentalists. A secularized postmillennialism was adopted by the Social Gospel movement. Non-fundamentalist Protestants from Continental Europe, like the Catholics, remained amillennial. Postmillennialism faded after World War I until the late 1970’s, when it experienced a limited revival.

            Basic to the view of both premillennialism and amillennialism is pessimism regarding the efforts of Christians to build a culture-wide kingdom of God on earth. Both positions hold that only by Jesus’ bodily presence among the saints can Christians create an cultural alternative to the competing kingdoms of man. The premillennialist believes that this international kingdom construction task will begin in earnest a thousand years before the final judgment, with Jesus ruling from a literal throne, probably located in Jerusalem. The amillennialist views this universal extension of the kingdom of God into culture as possible only after the resurrection of all humanity at the final judgment, i.e., in a sin-free, death-free, Christians-only world.

            Tribulation and Rapture

            Just prior to Jesus’ return to set up an earthly kingdom, argue most amillennialists and all premillennialists, there will be a time of persecution, called the Great Tribulation. It is here that the great debate over the Jews begins. Amillennialists believe that Christians will be persecuted by their enemies. A handful of premillennialists, referred to as “historic premillennialists,” also identify Christians as the targets. This version of premillennialism has been insignificant institutionally since the 1870’s. The dominant premillennial view says that Jews will suffer the Great Tribulation. Born-again Christians will have flown the coop – literally. This is the doctrine of the pre-tribulation Rapture.

            According to pre-tribulation premillennialists, who are known as dispensationalists, Jesus will come secretly in the clouds and raise deceased Christians – and only Christians – from the dead. Immediately thereafter, every true Christian will be transported bodily into the sky, and from there to heaven: the Rapture event. The passage cited to defend this view is found in Paul’s first letter to the church at Thessolonica: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (I Thes. 4:16-17). Throughout most of church history, this passage was associated with the final judgment, but beginning sometime around 1830 in England, it was linked to the premillennial, pretribulational Rapture – a word that is not found in the Greek text or in any English translation of the New Testament. Its Latin root word is in Jerome’s Vulgate, a translation of the Greek “harpazo” – seize, catch, or pluck.

            This outlook on the earthly future became increasingly popular among fundamentalists, beginning in the 1870’s. It was formalized in the footnotes of the Scofield Reference Bible (1909; revised, 1917). In 1930, it became the first Oxford University Press book to reach sales of one million. It has now sold over five million copies. C. I. Scofield’s system has defined fundamentalism for nine decades.

            The Rapture-based escape from history is now universally believed by fundamentalists to be imminent. Generations of fundamentalists have believed that they will escape bodily death. They will be transported into the sky, like Elijah, though without benefit of chariots.

            But when? That has been the great question. The answer: “Soon.” But why soon? Why not a millennium from now? The psychological answer: Because men do not live that long in this millennium. The main selling point for fundamentalism’s Bible prophecies is to get insight into what is coming soon. In this case, the issue of mortality is central. As the slogan says, “Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.” The doctrine of the imminent Rapture allows Christians to believe seriously that they can go to heaven without dying. Millions of Americans believe this today, just as their fathers and grandfathers believe this today.

            But how can they be so sure? Because of the events of 1948. In that year, the crucial missing piece of the prophetic puzzle – the restoration of the nation of Israel – seemed to come true. Critics of the dispensational system could no longer say, “But where is Israel in all this?” The answer, at long last: “In Palestine, just in time for the Great Tribulation.”

            The Grim Fate of Israel

            The source of the idea of the Great Tribulation is found in Jesus’ last words regarding Israel, which are recorded in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

            And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Luke 21:20-24).

            Throughout most of church history, this prophecy was interpreted as having been fulfilled by the Roman siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. With the rise of dispensationalism, however, the fulfillment of passage was moved into the future.

            Dispensationalism’s critics had long asked: “Where is the nation of Israel? Where are the Jews?” Not in Palestine, surely. So, dispensationalists tended to apply this prophecy of near-destruction to Jews in general – only symbolically residing in Israel – until 1948. This was one reason for their silence on Hitler’s persecution. Hitler was just another rung in the ladder of persecution leading to the inevitable Great Tribulation.

            The prophesied agency of the great persecution has shifted over the years. As Wilson shows in Armageddon Now!, from 1917 until 1977, Russia was a prime candidate. But, after 1991, this has become difficult to defend, for obvious reasons. The collapse of the Soviet Union has created a major problem for dispensationalism’s theologians and its popular authors. But there have been no comparable doubts about the intensity of the coming persecution. Here is the opinion of John F. Walvoord, one of dispensationalism’s leading theologians, who served for three decades as the president of Dallas Theological Seminary (founded, 1924), the movement’s main seminary.

            The purge of Israel in their time of trouble is described by Zechariah in these words: “And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried” (Zechariah 13:8, 9). According to Zechariah’s prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish, but the one third that are left will be refined and be awaiting the deliverance of God at the second coming of Christ which is described in the next chapter of Zechariah. [John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, [1962] 1988), p. 108.

            Nothing can or will be done by Christians to save Israel’s Jews from this disaster, for all of the Christians will have been removed from this world three and a half years prior to the beginning of this 42-month period of tribulation. (The total period of seven years is interpreted as the fulfillment of the seventieth week of Daniel [Dan. 9:27].)

            In order for most of today’s Christians to escape physical death, two-thirds of the Jews in Israel must perish, soon. This is the grim prophetic trade-off that fundamentalists rarely discuss publicly, but which is the central motivation in the movement’s support for Israel. It should be clear why they believe that Israel must be defended at all costs by the West. If Israel were militarily removed from history prior to the Rapture, then the strongest case for Christians’ imminent escape from death would have to be abandoned. This would mean the indefinite delay of the Rapture. The fundamentalist movement thrives on the doctrine of the imminent Rapture, not the indefinitely postponed Rapture.

            Every time you hear the phrase, “Jesus is coming back soon,” you should mentally add, “and two-thirds of the Jews of Israel will be dead in ‘soon plus 84 months.’” Fundamentalists really do believe that they probably will not die physically, but to secure this faith prophetically, they must defend the doctrine of an inevitable holocaust.

            This specific motivation for the support of Israel is never preached from any fundamentalist pulpit. The faithful hear sermons – many, many sermons – on the pretribulation Rapture. On other occasions, they hear sermons on the Great Tribulation. But they do not hear the two themes put together: “We can avoid death, but only because two-thirds of the Jews of Israel will inevitably die in a future holocaust. America must therefore support the nation of Israel in order to keep the Israelis alive until after the Rapture.”)

            To me, that is the Hagee (and his ilk) that don’t speak truthfully when it comes to pubic consumption (or they do… But only the partial truth).

    1. Leroy says:

      And one of my favorites (strange how prevalent adultery is amongst Evangelists… and with ministers in general):

  7. Leroy says:

    But really, even if you include Glenn Beck (which I believe that you should) do any of these beat Pat Robertson when it comes down to the full spectrum of “chutzpah”?

    (Beck, a former alcoholic and current moronic Mormon, admits that he used to be imperfect until he discovered that all the world’s woes are the fault of liberals, leftists, centrists, progressives, fake Republicans, or real Democrats. He is now perfect and able to bestow his wisdom upon us… Glenn Beck’s favorite book is The Five Thousand Year Leap[9][10] by fellow Mormon author W. Cleon Skousen, who is also the author of a series of tomes purporting to be a comprehensive history of the world through the lens of Mormon theology: The First Two Thousand Years, The Third Thousand Years, and The Fourth Thousand Years (Essentially a Mormon version of Young Earth creationism). The theme of The Five Thousand Year Leap appears to be that more human progress took place at once because of the Founding Fathers of the United States and their God-fearing worldview than in the previous 4000 years)

  8. Leroy says:

    “Beck has also spent much of his time scaring his viewers about ISIS, saying that they have a camp on Mexico’s border with Texas and implying they were planning an invasion and terrorist attacks inside the United States. He also had to throw in a quip about the gub’mint using this as an excuse to take away our freedoms. He also suggested that Americans “should prepare for all-out war”, saying that ISIS was going to be ‘in multiple cities’. Put bluntly, this is just Beck trying to his listeners to buy a bunch of rifles and ammunition.[60] In reality, there is no ISIS camp on the Mexican border, and they don’t want to launch a ground invasion of the continental United States, though they have called for lone-wolf attacks, which inspired the Garland shooters. They are primarily concerned about securing their territory in Iraq and Syria, rather than launching infiltration attacks on the US of the kind conducted from a base on the Mexican border, knowing that doing so would increase the likelihood of a US ground invasion of their territory and their subsequent pwnage by US soldiers. In any case, Beck is wrong about ISIS actively plotting to conquer America. What conspiracy theory is next, Boko Haram invading Connecticut?”

    1. Bob in Ohio says:

      Agree 100%. A long time ago, The Wreck-of-the-Beck admitted he “was” a drug addict and alcoholic. What he didn’t admit was the brain damage those two things produced. How else to explain The Wreck’s B.S. – Outer Limits – Twilight Zone talk? There is a group of people in our country who, apparently, flunked kindergarten multiple times and they think people like Bonehead Beck, Lush Limpbaugh, Head-in-fanny Hannity, the FOX faker “news” crew and teabagger-Rethuglicans are God’s Gift to the world. They also show up at the Mega-Churches to give their money to a bunch of carnival sideshow charlatans, like Benny Hinn, who whack sick people in the head “to heal them.” So, if they have a sore foot, Hinn gives them a sore head and they forget about the sore foot. “I’M HEALED!”, they scream as Hinn counts his $$$$$ millions. It’s been revealed that at least some of “the healed” were actually PAID ACTORS!!! Figures, doesn’t it? Let’s not forget that, long ago, some folks actually bought tickets at carnivals to see THE HALF WOMAN – HALF ALLIGATOR behind the curtain! Men bought the tickets ’cause they heard it was a mostly naked woman—Whoopee!! Fast forward. The level of political knowledge and education in our country is abysmal and the fact that these Know-Nutin’ Numb-Skulls vote for people like G. Dumbya, Mitt the Twitt, Poopethic Palin, Rotten Ronnie Ratpublican Reagan and a long list of Ratpublican Anti-Middle-class / Kill the Poor criminals, PROVES just how “political stupid” they are. Very sadly, a lot of Germans couldn’t figure out who Adolf really was and, today, a lot of people can’t figure out that the Republican–Koch Bros. created “Tea Party” is out to destroy the Middle-class, all Unions–think Hitler–, all public schools, SS, Medicare-Medicaid and anything that helps Joe and Jane Average. In reality, these Plutocrats want (and are doing it) to take our country back to the Gilded Age of NO Middle-class. Right now, 15 Americans are holding more wealth than 140 million citizens. Massive concentration of wealth! Just take a look at the Forbes magazine 400 to see who some of these Plutocrat-mentally-ill-with-Greed-brain-disease people are.

      1. Leroy says:


        You hit the nail right on the head.

        In fact, you hit several nails right on their heads!

        I find it so amazing sometimes.

        I lived in the general Cleveland area some time ago. Well, to include Medina County as well as Cuyahoga County. Some of it when I was a very young lad, some later in teens, a bit then later on.

        As a very young lad we lived in neighborhoods that later had some notoriety… Though, Glenville, East Cleveland, Collinwood (I met Danny Greene a few times… he was my father’s age and they were acquaintances). Plus some semi rural areas in Medina County.

        Along the way the parents split and Mom (bless her soul) became a gypsy school teacher, traveling and teaching in various states around the South primarily. I then split at 17 and went into the Marines.

        I still have friends and family in that general NE Ohio and visit occasionally. It really isn’t a bad area. Being from the deep Appalachians originally (and then off and on) I especially enjoyed Lake Erie (and all the Great Lakes that I had the pleasure of visiting to various degrees – but Lake Erie always seemed about perfect).

        Keep up the good work. Very excellent commentary.

        1. Bob in Ohio says:

          Semper Fi, Leroy. I have lived in Ohio my entire life, except for my 4 years of active duty in the Navy during the disastrous Vietnam war. I spent 3 years overseas. The Cleveland area and surrounding counties are typical of what happens when very rich business owners, who won’t even be happy if they become Trillionaires (no amount of money satisfies these Greed-diseased, mentally-ill Robber Barons), move their companies to places like Mexico and China. They got very rich right here in Ohio, when the Unions were strong, BUT it just wasn’t enough. The Ultra-Rich, like the Koch Klowns, Whack-job Waltons and Azzhole Adelson, HATE a strong Middle-class and all Unions because these Plutocrats want total, absolute and massive power, just like the Kings and Queens of old. “The money gets them power and the power gets them even more money”—A Greg Palast quote from “Bush Family Fortunes”, a MUST-SEE investigation for anyone who wants to know the Truth about the Bushes and how Jebby, Harris and Clayton Roberts rigged and stole the 2000 election in Florida. Palast, the Ultra-Master Investigator, exposes how the Bushes operate as political criminals, commit felonies and get away with everything. What you see in Cleveland and cities all over Ohio and the U.S. is the gang culture. If there were good-paying jobs in the towns and cities, as in previous decades, there wouldn’t be such a big gang population. Young men, especially Blacks in the “inner city”, like Hough – East Cleveland, don’t have fathers to teach them work and discipline, so they either join gangs or are forced to join gangs. The gang is the replacement for the family. Lately, the drive-by shootings in Cleveland have taken the lives of babies and young children. Cleveland is at 100 murders and we have 2 and a half months left in this year. So, our country is ravaged by gang murders by young males and and mass murders by mostly white, young males who are mentally ill. The U.S. doesn’t have the worst murder rate in the world, but the U.S. rate is very high for a “first world” country. So, “thanks a lot” Greedy-diseased, Ultra-Rich money-grubbers for severely damaging our economy and damaging our society. Rat-Rethuglican-controlled–(R)-Teabagger Party is owned and operated by these money- grubbing walking sickos AND Joe and Jane Average had better WAKE-UP to what this criminal / political Party is and vote ALL of them OUT! AND, All T-rump needs is a swastika armband and to have his dumb-assed, brain-dead supporters scream Sieg Heil!–since he’s A LOT like Adolf.

          1. Leroy says:

            Now, Bob, let’s not hold back, tell us how you really feel!


            I read thru what you said and found almost nothing that I could disagree with.

            The only one thing would be that actually the rate of violent crime in this country has been on the decline over last couple of decades.

            During my 30 years in law enforcement (all on the streets and in major metropolitan area), I can tell you that the overall crime rate and the violent crime rate was very heavy from like around the early to mid 1970s and continuing through up into mid 1990s. Same type of thing though. Gang activity (more subdivisions of national gangs rather than the local street gangs of today), turf wars, drug territorial wars, revenge gang attacks… even levels of police officers killed in the line of duty were MUCH higher back then (I am going to call out levels as much as 4 – 6 TIMES that of the last couple of years.

            I keep track of things going on in the Greater Cleveland Metropolitan Area still (I do that for any area where I spent some significant or important time at (well, if they have English-language media and current events mean anything – LOL).

            But overall I loved your comments.

            When I listen to my (usual) pessimistic, cynical self, I feel extremely sorry for my grandchildren and their grandchildren. There’s is going to be a completely different world and NOT that good of one! But then I think optimistically that maybe, just maybe as the TeaPublikkkan fascist base dies off (like Sen. Lindsay Graham spoke of in 2012) and true Progressives (not Liberals, not Libertarians, but true Progressives) can step up to the plate, maybe, just maybe there’s a chance…

            I’d hope that before it is our time, that we can see signs of that… one can hope.

            Fair winds and following seas, Bob.

          2. Robert Milnes says:

            Leroy, LoL! Are you claiming to be a progressive?
            Ex law enforcement/SWAT-PROGRESSIVE? Marine?
            LOL! You are the only one!

          3. Leroy says:

            Yes, former Marines and law enforcement can / are often Progressives, Liberals, Democrats.

            Unlike Milnes (aka delusional “Robert the Great”) who claims to be fanatically and absolutely Libertarian, but is:

            – Fanatically anti-Semite
            – Allied with American Nazis
            – Unlike every other Libertarian who is against Big Government, actually LIVES off the government.
            – Never produces factual information, simply lies and resorts to name calling
            – Himself is a total Chickenhawk

            A few links to review:

          4. Leroy says:


            Sorry that my Reply has been cut off.

            There were several links that corroborated all of those points made, plus then yet another section altogether.

            Neither came through.


            Other that “Brother Robert” (RM) has been quite openly harassing the Blog owners about my presence every since I started outing him – and doing so in detail.

            That being the case, I suggest that you Google him by name (both as shown and with middle initial W).

          5. Jim Cook says:


            Hi! Sometimes, if you offer multiple links in a comment, the computer that runs our website software assumes you’re a spammer and tosses your comment. We fish most of those out, but sometimes a few slip away on us.

          6. Leroy says:

            Well, I will have to try it again tomorrow. I think that it only had 3 links in it, but if necessary will break it up into segments.

      2. Leroy says:

        I don’t know if you are subscribed to this page, but if you are in the mood for some grins and giggles, you might want to check out:

        And keep in mind these as you do:

        Blog of Robert W. Milnes

        (Interestingly – but understandable – there are almost NO comments to his postings and articles… strange, eh?)

        “About” Robert W. Milnes… Though doesn’t really say anything about HIM!

        Robert W. Milnes for President Campaign Page…


        (Defunct right now, but waiting for election to get closer IMO)

  9. Bob in Ohio says:

    Leroy, that’s why I’m supporting Bernie. He’s the only politician running for Prez who has been fighting for the Middle-class and Poor for decades. I think the Clintons are too connected to the Wall St. Banksters / MIC / Plutocrats. Bill signed NAFTA and CAFTA into law. Both have greatly hurt American workers. BTW, what do you think of the Cleveland PD hiring a guy, Timothy Loehmann, who the Independence, Ohio PD basically fired for being “insubordinate, too immature to carry a gun (!) and mentally unstable?” Then, he shoots the kid, Tamir Rice, at the rec. center pavilion in just 2 seconds after arriving. Where was the “put your hands up?” I also blame the officer who was driving the car. Yes, the Dispatcher failed to tell the officers that the person who called 911 from the rec. center said the gun was a toy gun. That dispatcher has quit. But, in watching the video of the incident, I have to ask why the police car wasn’t stopped at a distance from the pavilion and the officers demand that the kid drop the gun and raise his arms / put his hands on his head? Now, Cleveland TV stations are reporting that the OSHP report and a report from 2 experts say that the shooting was justifiable. I’ve watched the video over and over and I think both officers acted inappropriately. I know that being a law enforcement officer is difficult and dangerous. All we have to do is look at the number who are killed every year in the line of duty. But there have been incidents caught on recording devices that sure look like murder to me. The Cleveland incident with the 62 police cars chasing that Black couple, unarmed, then firing 137 bullets at the stopped car, is the worst police-involved murders I’ve ever seen. The cop who jumped on the hood and emptied his gun through the windshield is beyond outrageous. What’s your take on those incidents and many others? BTW, my Grandfather and Great-Grandfather were both police officers.

    1. Leroy says:

      I’m supporting Bernie also, pretty much for the same reasons (no, for the same reasons).

      Don’t get me started on that whole Timothy Loehmann / Cleveland PD thing. So many absolute wrongs there. Cleveland should have never hired that guy. His FTO (Field Training Officer) was clearly a clown – and an unqualified FTO (IMO). There were so many procedural and tactical errors committed in that situation it is like unreal. Everything from the Dispatcher failing to pass on that the caller reporting on 911 said that he thought that it might be a TOY GUN to the FTO driving the cruiser right up on top of the scene, right in the deepest point of the danger zone – with the rookie’s door justices away from the “suspect”. I could spell out so many things wrong with that situation.

      1. Bob in Ohio says:

        Yes, I agree 100%. And, the 62 car, 137 bullets fired incident is just plain “murder by cops.”
        Where is the proper training and discipline in the Cleveland PD? The Mayor, being Black, knows
        full well that his city has a big list of problems, but he seems unable to provide strong leadership.
        Mostly what I hear him say are excuses. You have probably heard about one of the worst gangs in
        Cleveland, who call themselves the “Heartless Felons!” Yes, and they are! Go after them–take them

        1. Leroy says:

          Actually, having been retired for a while now (one of the advantages of police work is that you can retire after 20-30 years, depending on the state. Earlier you go in, earlier you can retire. I had planned on staying a bit more, but ended up with being required to take a disability due to accumulation of IPOds – injuries in line of duty), but any way, I had not heard of the “Heartless Felons”, but checking with some mutual acquaintances, I have been assured that they are a vicious but “punk” local area street gang.

          In my time (and area), it was more frequently local branches of national street gang organizations (Bloods, Crips, Vice Lords, etcetera)… and interspersed with outbreaks of turf wars / drug wars involving outlaw motorcycle gangs, ethnic “mafia” gangs, etcetera.

          The deal with the 62-car chase and 137 rounds fired (after car was trapped in a cul-de-sac) was equally a travesty. The ONE officer that was charged (acquitted due to felonious poor prosecution) left the cover of his vehicle, ran along the hoods / roofs of other cruisers (firing all this time) to leap into the hood of the suspects’ car, the armed suspects (only they weren’t), to stand in the open while continuing to pour rounds into the victim’s car windshield???!!! That was the worst of several tactical areas.

          As to Cleveland’s mayor (Jackson?), he ALWAYS looks like that “deer caught in the headlights look”. I can only believe that he is scared to death (literally) of the police union (as a former police union leader early in my career, I find their leadership over the last 10-15 years to be disgusting).

          1. Bob in Ohio says:

            Wow, you put a laser beam on the entire CLE situation.
            Jackson is way out of his element. He’d be OK in a gated
            community in Florida, maybe. I stay out of CLE as much as
            possible and, for that matter, out of cities, too. That
            PD Union guy is one arrogant dude. Did he escape from WWF?
            A very wise man once said, “If you can see the smoke from the
            neighbor’s chimney, they are too close.” So true.

    2. ella says:

      Thank you for supporting Bernie, he has worked really hard based on just what he is. I think people are actually hearing what he is saying.

      1. Bob in Ohio says:

        Agree 100% FEEL THE BERN! GO BERNIE!

  10. Bob in Ohio says:

    Leroy, I was thinking while driving today about a very real situation that took off in the
    1960’s and 1970’s. It involves a certain percentage of males of various races who decided
    to do F-F-F-F or just the shorter version: F-F-F. It wouldn’t be a giant problem IF the
    females wouldn’t have cooperated with /’\ and held the males accountable – responsible for all
    of the babies. F-F-F-F = Find them, Fill them with drugs-alcohol, F-’em, FORGET ’em! You
    never hear anyone in the news media talk about the culture of F-F-F / F-F-F-F. One of the
    things that fueled – fuels the culture was “the more babies, the more welfare money.” REMEMBER that
    basketball player in Georgia who fathered about 23 kids with a bunch of different women?
    This is pretty disgusting, since these guys make a big pile of money:

    I’m pushing 70 and I’ve never seen our country in such bad condition. A lot of it can be attributed
    to the attack on the Middle-class by the Plutocrats—Reagan started it—PUT HIM ON MT. FLUSHMORE!!!
    When people can’t find jobs, they often turn to crime. And, of course, some are not interested in
    a regular job, period. Waltons–4 of them, have a combined wealth of over $150 Billion.
    They got all of that $$$$$$$ by treating WalMart workers like slaves…minimum wage, all Part-Timers,
    no affordable benefits, ZIP! Workers = Dirt under the Waltons’ solid gold-plated feet.

    1. Leroy says:

      So true.

      But to tell you the truth, having lived in the Appalachian regions as well as the Deep South (for anywhere from a few years to several months – as a young kid, then as a teen, then as a young adult when stationed at various places… though have spent most of my life in the Great Lakes / Midwest regions since The Corps), I can assure you that the Redneck / White Trash culture is every bit as bad in everything that you mentioned! To include the Welfare Culture.

      BTW, as far as staying out of cities, I fully agree. Though I am in NE Ohio frequently, it has been years since I was IN the city of Cleveland (or Akron or Canton, etcetera). But if you want to see some areas even a lot worse, I would volunteer Gary, Indiana and Camden, New Jersey…. Uggghhh (I was surprised to find out that Camden has like the highest violent crime rate in the country).

  11. Bob in Ohio says:

    Leroy–agree about the trailer park trash / white trash crowd. But it certainly isn’t ALL trailer parks. There is a trailer / manufactured home park within 10 miles of where I live and it has strict rules and very nice living quarters. How about Kill-adelphia? Chicago’s murder rate makes Cleveland look like a Girl Scout camp. I do remember an incident that occurred on Euclid Ave. about 45 years ago. The President of Malone College (now U.) was being driven by his wife to the Cleveland Clinic. Both were elderly. She stopped for a red light and a group of brothers, who had been standing on the street corner, ran over and pulled open the unlocked passenger-side door. Then, they pulled him out, took his ring, watch and wallet and then shot him dead. That incident made me take a closer look at CLE. 25 years later, I had an operation at the Cleveland Clinic, was in a room for some days, and watched drug dealers and hookers plying their trades on the street south of Euclid. I never did see a police car go down that street. How about the taxpayers putting out the huge amount of money for the stadiums in CLE? Let’s see–play a kid’s ball game for millions. Did you know that the NFL has had 501(c)(3)-charitable status until this year??? YIKES! There was a petition on the Internet to scream to the IRS to revoke the NFL’s charitable status. Apparently, it worked. But imagine how much money–Mega-Billions–the NFL never paid in taxes BECAUSE they were (NOT!!!!!) a charity! Charitable status is, in my opinion, the biggest source of fraud in our entire country. Ohio has a Mt. Everest amount of it. Jackass Jim Bakker is a Grade A example of a crook calling himself a Pastor (the Assemblies of God finally threw Bakker out), but, at least, he did get convicted and spent, I think, about 5 years in jail. Not enough, though. His wicked-crooked wife, Tammy-Faye (the joke going around was–when she took off her eye-makeup, they found Jimmy Hoffa’s body) and Roe Messner, who built the Christian Disneyland in S.C., were big participants in the fraud. Tammy divorced Jim when he went to prison and married (!) Messner. Neither were charged in the PONZI scheme. But Messner did do some prison time. “In 1996, Roe Messner was sentenced to 27 months in federal prison for bankruptcy fraud charges and served his time from 1996 to 1999.” Finally, CLE—was formerly called “The Mistake by / on the Lake.” Well, with the kids and babies being murdered this year by drive-by gang-bangers and the Tamir Rice and “137 bullets” murders, Plus about 100 murders this year already, MAYBE that description has new meaning. My take—stay Far, Far Away. Of course, the big VA hospital is right up there in University Circle. Damn! Been there many times. After 40 years, the VA finally agreed that I was injured while on active duty and gave me a 10% disability. NO back money–figures, doesn’t it?—wait until the veteran gets real old OR just croaks = costs tiny amount or ZERO.

  12. Leroy says:


    I meant “Trailer Park TRASH in the classical, low-grade, low-rent (payments usually late), 3-generations to a trailer sense (with sister-cousins pregnant by brother-uncles by 15, adults with fewer teeth than fingers, beer-guzzling, pill-popping sense)… and not just in the South either. AND… it can just as easily be (most likely) apartments or residential neighborhoods. The keys are the same. Lack of education (proudly so in both groups), split-up families, heavy alcohol – drug usage, etcetera.

    Interestingly, this group tends to be staunchly conservative and politically supports the very same Elitist One Percentile that inspires that they never get an real opportunity out… and just as interestingly, this group (both in sheer numbers and in proportionate percentage) lives off the government MORE than the other group (when comparing TOTALS). And yet shrieks for less government, fewer legitimate safety nets, abolishment of Social Security, etcetera. Really amazing if you think about it.

    (Also interesting is the fact that such a large proportion of our age group is so very conservative and tends to consistently vote for the Grand ONE-PERCENTER Party candidates across the board… The very party that is determined to harm that group as much as possible! I have seen SOME change in that attitude

    Conversely there are very nice trailer home parks (even ones with older trailers). Rules and enforcement is a key component – along with residential and ownership attitude. Pride in neighborhood.

    There indeed are problems with Cleveland, but no longer around many places – like Cleveland Clinic. Cleveland Clinic did some major expansion several years ago (I believe still going on). I was there for some testing about ten years ago and then for some follow-up a few years later. Now I had been there around 1982 and the surrounding area was HORRIBLE. East 105th and Euclid Avenue was one of the worst spots in Cleveland. Then as the Clinic (along with University Hospital) had this huge increase in their reputation nationwide, even internationally, the Big Money jumped on board. Cleveland Clinic expanded east out to E. 105 and Euclid Avenue (and westward even further) as they did also at University Hospital – and the corridor in-between (which pretty much encompasses the little political burg of University Circle. Both hospitals had multiple layers of security. Unarmed security, armed security, and “hospital patrol officers” (that are state-certified full power police officers). Then on top of that CPD patrols that area extensively (now go a few blocks either direction and you’re back in the ghetto and NEVER see a patrol car).

    With those two visits I was able to do some exploring around. I found a couple areas that had been / were being nicely upgraded. Tremont, Ohio City… even downtown to a big extent. And of course the far west side (the First District) had always been a nicely kept up area, quiet, patrolled VERY well. More like a very nice suburb than part of Cleveland’s residential areas on the east and near west side.

    (Between those two visits I was at University Hospital for some extensive cervical surgery – from one of my multiple injuries-in-the line of duty injuries… but in that situation I returned right afterwards for remaining recovery back in the home area).

    Friends / family still in the Cleveland area tell me that not only has that improvement been maintained, but expanded very strongly in the downtown region and now into “The Flats”.

    I had been in OH-TEN (what Cleveland was referred to when I was in The Corps) a few times in the 90s, and in the evenings and at night it was a super hopping place – but all bar crowds, partying, and barely renovated bars to glitzy clubs. But strictly wild (and 90% suburban partiers). And mainly on one side of the Flats. I understand that this resurrection is being done with the whole spectrum. Offices, residential conversions (middle class to lower upper class mainly), very nice diners to classy restaurants – and a few bars likewise classed. My understanding is that it is not yet complete, but has been underway for a couple years.

    And as the Flats borders the west side of downtown (where a lot of offices even previously had been converted to “apartment / condo” units and that apparently is starting up again, with many fairly affordable), and is also (I’m sure) getting a lot of patrolling, you’ll have this corridor stretching through downtown and over through the Flats.

    Cleveland Clinic / University Hospital / University Circle. Downtown / Flats. Metro General / West Side Market. Tremont. Ohio City. Far West Side. Get the picture of these calm islands in a surrounding sullen ocean?

    Now if we had LESS income inequality and the elitist upper TEN PERCENT and Corporations were taxed in a manner more appropriately (and ALL government entities were held accountable – even brutally accountable), then I believe that all the various programs could be initiated to spread those “islands” (which I have seen also in Baltimore, Greensboro, etcetera) throughout all of Cleveland and other ended cities.

    As to how bad things are in other cities, I threw out Gary and Camden as places which wouldn’t normally come to mind. I could have just as easily mentioned Indianapolis and Newark. Or compared with major cities such as Oakland, Detroit (highest in USA as of 2012 stats), Atlanta, Baltimore, Buffalo, Kansas City, St. Louis, D. C., Stockton, Chicago, San Antonio, Memphis, Miami, Philadelphia, Nashville… even Milwaukee. All high in the violent crimes crime rate category (cities over 100,000).

    BTW, here’s an excellent crime rate listing that shows the crime rate of the United States since 1993. It is broken down quite extensively and shows the crime rate for crimes of violence and also properly crime rates. And shows the decline in both categories over that time frame. Something that I have said time and time again.

    (Hope that comes through)

    I only wish that chart had gone back to like 1983 as I have no doubt that the crime rates would have been yet even higher through the early 80s and throughout.

    Well actually here is a chart that actually covers in chart form crime rates NATIONALLY back to 1960 (seems like the really big rise started during the latter stages of Vietnam and then post Vietnam – which was when I got into law enforcement and corroborates what I saw).


    1. Leroy says:

      Actually can see a 2012 breakdown for Crimes of Violence by city in three separate links.

      Cities over 250,000 population:

      Cities 100,000 to 250,000 population:,000%E2%80%93250,000)

      Cities of 60,000 to 100,000 population:,000-100,000)

      Look at Camden, NJ. I’m pretty sure that their rate is higher than any other city on the other lists.

    2. ella says:

      I didn’t know which one of you (you or Bob) to put this under, so… Party Platforms in part:

      “Protecting the promise of Social Security is absolute

      We will ensure that a retirement with dignity is the right and expectation of every single American, starting with pension reform, expanding saving incentives and preventing the privatization of social security.” The Democrat Party Platform on Social Security


      “Workers will have choice to invest their payroll taxes

      Anyone currently receiving Social Security, or close to it, will not be impacted by any changes.
      Key changes should merit bipartisan agreement.
      Real reform will not include tax increases.
      Today’s workers should be free to direct a portion of their payroll taxes to personal investments for their retirement future.
      Any new options for retirement security should be voluntary, so workers can choose to remain in the current system or opt for something different.” The Republican Party Platform on Social Security

      1. ella says:

        Do you see the difference in the two? Notice in the Republican Party Platform the section that says:

        “Any new options for retirement security should be voluntary, so workers can choose to remain in the current system or opt for something different”

        Now re-read the Democrat Party Platform, it is shorter and directly to the point.

      2. Leroy says:

        Sorry, but I have a low level (low-to-moderate) of trust in the Democratic policy… and absolutely ZERO for that of the TeaPubliKKKans!

        Privatize Social Security?

        Which means “use your money instead to invest in WALL STREET”.

        I have a great example for you.

        Years ago I established a Deferred Compensation Account where money could go into (up to a certain, but fairly liberal, amount). Once I retired from my law enforcement job I – being now on a fixed pension – could no longer afford to put money into the account, but I could still move it around (through various mutual funds, with numerous being available to choose from). When I retired (several years ago), I had about 60,000 dollars in the fund. Twice I was easily over $80K. Then Stock Market drops would kill my holdings, dropping me both of those times under $50K (and twice more under $60K). At the first of this year I was around $78K. It stayed stable until the third quarter. At the start of the third quarter it was at $76K. NINETY DAYS LATER (90 days), I had LOST over $8500.00. I “might” recoup that in two years. I “might” recoup that in five years. I “might” not recoup it before I die!

        That is a perfect example of the EVILS of privatization.

        The Grand One-Percenter Party (GOP) want to privatize Social Security (and ANY OTHER government programs) for one reason: To benefit the ultra wealthy and major corporations!

        1. Bob in Ohio says:

          Leroy, your history of what happens with private-type investments should open some eyes.
          Just think about the millions of people who lost their homes because of the criminals
          on Wall St. / Banksters! It was a tiny group of crooked Ultra-Rich people who caused the
          Oct. 29, 1929, Wall St. disaster that became the Great Depression. It was a bunch of fraudsters
          / criminals who caused the 2008-2009 “melt-down” on Wall St. and the Great Recession. U.S.
          history shows that wealthy, greedy (there is never enough $$$$$$), business people don’t give a
          damn about their fellow citizens or their country. They will do ANYTHING to get richer, even if
          it means destroying the Middle-class and putting more and more people into poverty. These people
          are correctly called Plutocrats today because they want total control of our government—NO more
          democracy, and they want ALL of the money. Basically, they want to take our country back to the
          Gilded Age of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, when just a few families held most of the wealth
          of our country. Today, there are 15 people who hold more wealth than 140 Million Americans! That
          is the definition of “concentration of wealth.” Those 15 people, who are putting hundreds of millions
          into Republican campaigns, include the 4 Waltons—holding over $150 Billion, the Koch Brothers—
          holding over $80 Billion, and Adelson—over $30 Billion. Adelson basically bought and funded John
          Kasich, who is one of the worst Ohio Governors in the last 100 years. The first thing Kasich did
          when he got the Ohio Governorship, was to do what Adelson and the Plutocrats want, ATTACK all Unions.
          So, Kasich teamed-up with the Republican-controlled Ohio Legislature and went after the Police, Fire,
          EMS, Teachers and Nurses Unions. Fortunately, Ohio voters smelled a rat (!) and defeated Kasich and
          his (R)atpublican fellow snakes with Issue 2. That was a BIG slap in the face for Kriminal Kasich!
          This Republican – Tea Party (created and funded by the Koch Brothers) is the worst in U.S. history.
          They want to privatize everything, get rid of extremely important programs like SS, Medicare and
          Medicaid, get rid of the public schools, keep up the non-stop wars, stop any controls or regulations
          on Wall St. and the “too big to fail banks” AND, basically, destroy the Middle-class. These (R)ats,
          T-baggers, by comparison, make Nixon and Rotten Ronnie Reagan look like Girl Scouts. The 2016 election
          will prove whether Joe and Jane Average voters WAKE UP, SEE what these Plutocratic snakes are doing
          and VOTE THE (R)ats OUT! BTW, Maybe JEBBY can explain why his brain-damaged brother shut down the FBI unit
          that was investigating the guys who became the 9/11 hijackers. BUT, he won’t because it would make the
          entire Shrub family look like the crooks / criminals / in bed with the Saudi Royals that they are.

          1. Leroy says:

            Well, that pretty much covered all the bases!

          2. Leroy says:

            The biggest crime that Kriminal Kasich committed was, soon after entering office, was to take the LGF (Local Government Funds) monies away from regional, county, and local governments. It absolutely KILLED their budgets and caused major raises in local property taxes, local income taxes, percentages of local sales taxes – and still caused major cutbacks of police, fire, service, recreational, and other programs.

            What a major a$$hole!

          3. Bob in Ohio says:

            He’s an Adelson bought-and-paid-for Azzhole–Anti-Middle-class, Anti-Union, Pro-Koch Bros.
            “Back to the Gilded Age” class warfare. PA! Take him back! It’s really VERY sickening how Joe and Jane Average
            voters get taken in by the Carnival Sideshow Barkers like T-Rump and Lehman-Kriminal Kasich. The Rats use GGG and A! Rethugs know it works a lot on lemmings / FOX brain-dead-heads.
            Remember the huge barrage of TV ads attacking Strickland with the “he lost 400,000 Ohio jobs” B.S.?
            Adelson paid for all of that TV propaganda B.S. IF a Ratpublican had been Governor when the “400,000 jobs disappeared”, we / the public wouldn’t have heard One Word about it. Super Rich Business-owners moved the
            Ohio jobs to the Non-Union South, then to Mexico, India, Bangladesh and China. AND, they are
            about 100% Ratpublicans. Joe and Jane also don’t seem to know about the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and how it
            is owned and operated by the Millionaires and Billionaires. It’s really a “Chamber of Koch Bros. Horrors” for most citizens.
            Bottom line–IF Joe and Jane Average voters can’t figure out what a “democracy disaster” T-Rump and the entire Rethug-Rat-teabagger Party are AND what they are doing to our country, then the Middle-class is DOOMED and the U.S. will, AGAIN, look like it did in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s—a tiny number of families with 99% of the wealth and everyone else a very struggling bunch of peons / peasants. If it gets that bad, T-Rump and the rest of the (R) snakes with be flipping Joe and Jane Average the MIDDLE FINGER as they go from their gated and heavily guarded mansions to their Ultra-Exclusive Country Clubs for golf, champagne and caviar. AMERICA will be a land of Gold-plated Millionaire / Billionaire / Trillionaire Kings / Queens and a huge numbers of pathetic, starving peons / peasants.

          4. Leroy says:


            “Super Rich Business-owners moved the
            Ohio jobs to the Non-Union South, then to Mexico, India, Bangladesh and China. AND, they are about 100% Ratpublicans.”

            And Malaysia and Guatemala and Dominican Republic and Indonesia and even Pakistan.

            But FIRST “they”, the TeaPubliKKKan business and corporate owners moved all those businesses SOUTH to the Southern states where there was no unions, much lower wages, no benefits – and a greater ability to use highly UNDERPAID illegal alien workers (most people are clueless that the vast majority of illegal aliens aren’t on Welfare, they are working at well below minimum wage levels with no benefits for major businesses and industries – and of course, for decades, Big AgriBusiness).

            And then… “Joe and Jane also don’t seem to know about the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and how it is owned and operated by the Millionaires and Billionaires. It’s really a ‘Chamber of Koch Bros. Horrors’ for most citizens… ”

            The sad fact is that most Americans really believe that the U. S. Chamber of Commerce is a coalition of all those local Chambers of Commerce, when in fact they are like a Super PAC, similar to the NRA, but for the benefit of the Ultra Wealthy / Upper Elite. And, like the Tea Party movement, created / funded by the Koch Klowns.

            “IF Joe and Jane Average voters can’t figure out what a ‘democracy disaster’ T-Rump and the entire Rethug-Rat-teabagger Party are AND what they are doing to our country, then the Middle-class is DOOMED and the U.S. will, AGAIN, look like it did in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s—a tiny number of families with 99% of the wealth and everyone else a very struggling bunch of peons / peasants.”

            That is so true.

            But will there be a Trust Buster Teddy to come along, followed a generation later (after the disasters of Wilson and Hoover) Fair Deal Franklin to “save the day”???

          5. Bob in Ohio says:

            The answer is Bernie. But it will also take a reversal in Congress. Joe and Jane
            MUST toss out the (R)ats so that progressive legislation can be passed. IF the huge
            corporations, like GE and Boeing, get to continue to pay ZERO federal taxes, IF the
            Millionaires and Billionaires continue to be able to pay peanuts into SS, IF Glass-
            Steagall isn’t reinstated AND IF the U.S. continues to waste Mega Billions and LIVES
            on the endless, unwinnable wars, the downward spiral of the Middle-class will continue
            and the downward spiral of our country will continue. I think, in many ways, Obama has
            been a big disappointment. YES, the (R)ats said from Day One of Obama’s Presidency that
            they were going to be the Party of NO and they have basically opposed everything he has
            tried to do. They have tried to repeal ACA-“Obamacare”, over 40 times. But I think
            Obama has been way too friendly with the Wall St. criminals and he has continued the
            unwinnable wars in the Middle-East. He never served in the military and I think that has
            influenced his decisions. What also has influenced Obama is the simple fact that he came
            out of the Chicago political crowd. Has Obama gone after the Bankster/Wall St. criminals?
            Sure doesn’t look like it to me. “Too big to fail banks” and “too rich and powerful to jail
            elites”-like the CEO of Chase–that’s the nation we have now. Massive level of corruption!

          6. Leroy says:

            Yes, as long as the Rats control Congress (and have a USSC majority), having a GREAT president is somewhat meaningless. Getting things accomplished is dampened near impossible.

            Voters need to identify the most liberal / progressive Democrats that they can and get them elected. That would go a long way towards “sending a message” to other Democrat politicians (to “convert” or be pushed aside by what one would hope to be a wave of Progressives)… And hopefully gain control of the two legislative houses.

            One thing of importance for this upcoming president is that (especially if two terms) is that they’ll likely appoint at least 3, maybe 4 Supreme Court justices. I’d prefer Sanders do that than Shrub!!! Even if the Rats keep control of Congress!

          7. Bob in Ohio says:

            JEBBY-the-Shrub-Criminal-Jerk should be doing 20 in the skinny bar motel for
            conspiring with Harris, Roberts and the (R)at Party to steal the 2000
            election in Florida. Greg Palast proved the theft conclusively in his
            2003 investigative report, aired by the BBC, “Bush Family Fortunes.” Watch it
            on YouTube and get ready to barf. The Shrubs = barf. Crawford Ranch =
            septic tank Hell.

        2. ella says:

          I see your point, it would be too expensive to bet on in some cases. But you have done well to stay above water as some did not. You retired uniformed men are having a good chat here. Chat on.

          1. Leroy says:

            Actually it doesn’t feel like I’ve “done well” in having lost over $8500.00 in just THREE MONTHS due to high level players gambling in The Market!

            And actually I believe both Bob and I served only ONE enlistment each (like back in the late 1960s / early 1970s) in the military. I know that I did.

            I went on to do a 30-year career in law enforcement (with about 15 in SWAT)… And Bob went on to… ??? (He probably said somewhere, but if so I don’t recall offhand).

            Just a matter of keeping informed.

            Truly and legitimately informed.

  13. Bob in Ohio says:

    Thanks for all of that info. I’m reading those links.
    You sure have a lot of personal experience in the CLE
    area and others! I have to wonder, given what has happened so far
    with both incidents of what I would call murder, if the
    officers who pulled the trigger will be held accountable.
    ACCOUNTABILITY, in so many ways, has disappeared in our
    country, in so many areas of American society.

  14. Leroy says:

    My understanding is that the one officer tried in the multitude of police cars chasing one car with unarmed suspects (where like over 150 shots were fired) has already been acquitted (from what I read in following it, the prosecutor put on a GREAT case…. for the Defense). And that fairly recently the prosecutor’s office advised No Charges in the Rice case.

    Not sure about internal disciplinary action. I doubt it.

    In the first case, the family settled out of court civilly but in the Rice case I read where the mother is determined to take the civil trial all the way.

    REAL accountability?

    Not until the public starts demanding it.

    Judges and prosecutors are elected officials (except at the Federal level). Professional politicians have ONE major goal… to stay in some political office.

    So when the electorate votes them out – and lets them know WHY, then at some point it becomes an avalanche.


    The Feds (FBI / DOJ) start nailing judges and prosecutors for corruption in their malfeasance / malfeasance.


    The best option is a combination of BOTH!

  15. Bob in Ohio says:

    HOW ABOUT THIS? Another investigator and I discovered that an FBI agent was (1) protecting a R.I.C.O. and (2) attending sex and drug parties. Would any FBI offices in Ohio do anything? NO! So, the evidence was taken to the DOJ. After about 9 months, the agent “retired.” Got his pension. NO charges whatsoever. Then, the R.I.C.O. he was protecting created a job for him (!) and he was paid over $80,000 a year, free car to drive, credit cards and country club memberships—all paid-for with “charitable” money! SICKENING!!! After that all went down, my opinion of the FBI took a serious nose-dive. Of course, there was the murder of an elderly lady in Barberton some years ago. The lady’s grand-daughter was also in the house and attacked. But she survived. The cops arrested the husband of the dead woman’s daughter. BUT, the daughter stated that her husband had been at their home—over 40 miles away from Barberton, when the murder / attack took place! There was skin under the victim’s finger nails, but the “wonderful” Summit County crew didn’t have it tested for DNA. If they had, they would have discovered the killer-attacker. When the little girl woke up, she went next door to cry for help. That’s where the killer was! His girl friend / wife didn’t call 911, but told the little girl, who was bloodied, to sit on the porch “because I have to get my kids dressed for school.” That woman never called 911, but took the little girl to her mother’s house. NOW, wouldn’t any detective find that behavior extremely suspicious? The accused was railroaded Big Time by really grossly unethical officials and spent nearly 7 years in jail for crimes he had nothing to do with. The vicious criminal who did the crimes was finally identified, BUT not by any law enforcement. The falsely accused guy’s wife did the work! The Innocence Project helped immensely to get him out-of-jail. It’s really one of the most horrendously outrageous miscarriages of justice I’ve ever seen or heard about. I did my small part to help the guy’s wife get connected to the help she needed. NONE of the law enforcement people at any level were held accountable for what they did OR didn’t do. SICKENING!

    1. Leroy says:

      Wow… I don’t seem to recall that one. While I try to keep updated pretty regular, unfortunately there are times when I have gaps with regularly checking the online versions of Cleveland Plain Dealer, Akron Beacon Journal, etcetera.

      Do you have and links, names, etcetera?

      It sounds like the RICO target was VERY well connected and was able to seriously protect his FBI “mole / traitor”. As FBI agents can not initiate investigations without (a) a formal complaint, and (b) authorization approval, it sounds like the good apples in the FBI office were stymied (as the connection that the RICO target had was probably pretty high up the DOJ ladder).

      I recall the Whitey Bulger gang and their bought-and-paid-for FBI agent Tom Connely. Agent (former) Connelly himself was eventually connected, investigated, arrested (by the FBI) and prosecuted and convicted by the DOJ prosecutors.

      As I read on one site (and very truthful statement):

      “The revelations from the trial of ex-FBI agent John Connelly are disgusting. The members of the Bulger gang (multiple murderer Steven Flemmi) have offered testimony that is shocking. Not only did (then Agent) Connelly accept large cash payments from the gang (up to $10,000 at Christmas), Connelly gave the gang information that enabled members of the gang to escape prosecution. My question: was John Connolly the most corrupt FBI agent in history? Such a morally bankrupt person should never have been appointed. I wonder what Hoover would have thought? I remember that there was a very honest FBI agent (“Donny” Brasco) who infiltrated the NY mob. He placed his life in danger, and almost lost his marriage. Brasco was a real hero-but Connolly was the vilest POS imaginable.”

      Actually the worst charge against Connolly was his participation in an execution murder of a Boston businessman (for Bulger) in 1982. That conviction was overturned in 2014 by a 3-judge appellate court panel in Miami. However this last July (2015) the full appellate court reinstated the conviction. Connolly was sentenced on Federal charges in 2002 and incarcerated in FCI in NC until 2011 when he was transferred to start serving his 40-year sentence on the 2nd degree murder conviction (that had been obtained in a 2008 trial).

      Someone else on that Thread then replied with ‘How about Robert Hansen? Hansen was arrested on February 18, 2001, at Foxstone Park near his home in Vienna, Virginia, charged with selling American secrets to Moscow for more than $1.4 million in cash and diamonds over a 22-year period. On July 6, 2001, he pled guilty to 15 counts of espionage in federal court. He was subsequently sentenced to life in prison without parole. His activities have been described as “possibly the worst intelligence disaster in US history.’

      But I can’t find anything offhand on the situation that you describe…

  16. Bob in Ohio says:

    Leroy, Let me explain it this way. In the late 1990’s, the head of the detective bureau of the Canton PD, Capt. Myers, said that a guy with a name known all over the world (think vacuum cleaners), had been operating a R.I.C.O. for decades with his control of his company’s charitable Foundation. He was basically using the Foundation as his personal piggy bank. He found lots of other charities who had crooked people running them, who would accept a check and then, under the table, give a sizable kick-back. How much was embezzled over the decades? At least $50 Million! The FBI agent was protecting this R.I.C.O. After he was reported to the DOJ, he “retired” with his pension, was never charged with anything (the guy running the R.I.C.O. has also never been charged), and the R.I.C.O. operator created a job for the ex-FBI guy—3 years, $82,000 a year, plus a free car to drive, credit cards and country club memberships. All of that was a pay-off for the ex-cop to keep his mouth shut. You would be shocked (but maybe not), if I told you which charity organization laundered the most money for this arch-crook. Hint: think knot-tying. What this proves is that (1) the local newspaper was told about the R.I.C.O., but refused to do an investigation (2) a massive charitable fraud was allowed to operate for decades and (3) a bunch of “community leaders” who controlled charities with millions of dollars, participated in this huge criminal operation. It goes to show how corrupt our society is. “Too rich, connected and powerful to investigate.” This is how societies and countries get destroyed. What ever happened to Honesty? What ever happened to Accountability? If certain people are EXEMPT from the laws that are supposed to cover all citizens, what does that tell you about that society – culture – country? People will get hurt and some will die as a result of this corruption.

    1. Leroy says:

      Still at a loss to this one.

      Are their any links to suggestions of any of this?

      I see one reference that appears to refer to J. Edgar… but he never retired. He died in office.

      Captain Myers I am not familiar with.

      Nor can I think of a hint with “knot tying” for a charity (bowling, clove hitch, reef, square, granny???).

  17. Bob in Ohio says:

    Leroy, As I said, no one in this Ohio R.I.C.O. has been held responsible,
    except the FBI guy was forced to retire. The FBI guy was in charge of
    an office in a major Ohio city. The person at the head of the R.I.C.O.
    – charitable Foundation rip-off / embezzlement was a Hoover family member.
    The vast amount of the embezzlement / laundering of the charitable money
    was done through a local Boy Scout Council. Think about it–who is going
    to look closely at money that goes in and out of a Boy Scout Council? There
    have been investigations all over our country into Boy Scout Councils AFTER
    someone blew the whistle. But this R.I.C.O. in Ohio has had a super, major
    cover-up because it was being protected by an agent who got lots of money.
    AND, Big Name people were involved. These Big Name people have massive
    amounts of “Teflon”—money, connections and power. But this kind of hushed-
    up scandal isn’t unique. There have been others. Look how long the situation
    in Boston went on–decades, before people were finally arrested and convicted.
    Are you aware of J.E. H. being gay and living all those years with his lover,
    who just happened to be Deputy Director? They are buried next to each other.
    The mob found out about J.E.’s being gay and even dressing up in female clothes,
    so he was under their control for a while (!) He even denied they existed for a
    long time. SEE:

    1. ella says:

      You sure know what you are saying about J.E. and his interests. He also used the Eagle Scouts for their many talents.

      1. Jason says:

        Ms. Ella,

        I really do try to keep track of this type of information, and find it so interesting.

        But this talking in code and very general comments with no specifics tends to drive me crazy.

        I’m not the world’s greatest researcher but do have some basic talent. And I have had no success in finding out anything about J. Edgar Hoover and the Eagle Scouts.

        As to “J. E.”, or J. Edgar Hoover, he’s been dead a long time, most current FBI agents and 99% of politicians don’t care for him and many even hate him it seems, so I think that we can speak his name!

        It’s all part of this code thing it seems.

        Is it fear that “someone” is going to retaliate?

        Or that it isn’t known if it’s really true (or most probably true) and that something is being slandered?

        I was in the Cub W, the Boy Scouts, and the Eagle Scouts for just about three years in the Eagle Scouts. And I never ever heard even the whisper of a rumor about Hoover and the Eagle Scouts.

        Thank you.

        1. ella says:

          No, and yes. It is not fear, but perhaps respect for people I knew when I was young(er). Information that I was privy too through people who were in/or worked for and around such agency’s, and J. Edgar hasn’t been dead all that long, what 35 or so years. I forget when he died. I thought you might know to what I referred, please forget it.

          1. Jason says:

            Ms. Ella,

            J. Edgar Hoover died May 2, 1972. That is over 43 years ago. Any “close associates” of Hoover’s are long since gone from the FBI (in fact, I would bet that they are all long since dead).

            And I am not “Bob”, so how would I possibly know what you are talking about?

            (Bob, if you get this, do you know what this is about with the Eagle Scouts?)

            As far as fear of retaliation, by who? Current FBI agents and their managers pretty much all despise Hoover (due to the things that have come out about him).

            I have located about 20 books on Hoover in our library and the surrounding libraries. Probably half of them are very negative against Hoover.

            One example:

            “J. Edgar Hoover & Clyde Tolson:
            Investigating the Sexual Secrets of America’s Most Famous Men and Women”

            The book appears to be, so far, as I am now reading it, about Hoover and his #2 man and their off the wall obsessions.

            The description says “Darwin Porter’s saga of power and corruption has a revelation on every page – cross-dressing, gay parties, sexual indiscretions, hustlers for sale, alliances with the Mafia, criminal activity by the FBI and an obsessive and voyeuristic interest in the sex lives of Washington and Hollywood celebrities, including Marilyn Monroe to Dwight D. Eisenhower, Katharine Hepburn and Martin Luther King, Jr.”

            Now it has a whole bunch of really shocking allegations as to their conduct.

            The author is Darwin Porter. He has written a lot of books that apparently “tell all”. If there was someone that the FBI or Hoover thugs would retaliate against would be this guy! But he’s alive and doing well.

            Then there’s Dempsey Travis, an Afro-American entrepreneur, real estate mogul, jazz musician, historian and author (and close friend of MLK) who wrote the book “J.. Edgar Hoover’s FBI Wired the Nation”. It also apparently has a lot of serious allegations against Hoover and his illegal wiretapping which was published in 2000. Another clear target for Hoover’s thugs? And he did die after writing the book. Nine years after writing the book, dying at home of natural causes in 2009 at age 89.

            There seemed to be several like that. One in particular that I have on hold through the library was written in 1991 and that guy (who is I believe mainly an attorney who has written a couple books) is still alive and well.

            I’m not sure that you have anything to worry about.

            Or am I being naive?

  18. Leroy says:

    Yes, all aware about the situation with J. Edgar.

    JEH pretty much lived in an apartment most of his life (I think in the later era of his long-term regime as FBI Director he did have a fancy house finally – that was renovated and fanciful decorated with government funds).

    The Assistant Director of the FBI then was a Clyde Tolson. He was a very personal “friend” of Hoover’s and had been a secretary and assistant to Hoover from even well before the FBI days.

    As indicated:

    “It has been stated that J. Edgar Hoover described Tolson as his alter ego: “They rode to and from work together, ate lunch together, traveled together on official business, and even vacationed together.” Rumors circulated for years that the two bachelors had a romantic relationship. Some authors dismissed the rumors about Hoover’s sexual orientation and possible intimate relationship with Tolson, while others have described them as probable or even “confirmed”, while others reported the rumors without stating an opinion.[17][18] There does not appear to be any credible proof either way. Hoover was a very straitlaced, religious man who may have suppressed any physical interest he may have had in Tolson.

    When Hoover died, Tolson inherited his estate of US$551,000 and moved into his house; he accepted the U.S. flag draped on Hoover’s coffin.”


    “In 1964, Tolson suffered a stroke, and as a result, remained somewhat frail for the remainder of his life. In 1965, President Lyndon B. Johnson awarded him a gold medal for distinguished federal civilian service saying Tolson ‘has been a vital force in raising the proficiency of law enforcement at all levels and in guiding the Federal Bureau of Investigation to new heights of accomplishment through periods of great National challenge.’ Hoover kept Tolson employed in the FBI even after he became too old for police duty and past retirement age.

    After Hoover’s death on May 2, 1972, Tolson was briefly the acting head of the FBI. L. Patrick Gray became director on May 3. That same day, Tolson contacted Mark Felt and instructed him to write his letter of resignation. Citing ill health, Tolson retired from the bureau on May 4, the day of Hoover’s funeral… After Tolson’s departure from FBI, his health began to decline. On April 10, 1975, Tolson was admitted to Doctors Community Hospital in Washington, D.C. for renal failure. He died there four days later of heart failure at the age of 74. Tolson is buried in the Congressional Cemetery near J. Edgar Hoover’s grave.”


    Then there’s:

    Plus there’s numerous books that details various aspects of Hoover’s various corruptions and dirty dealings.

  19. Bob in Ohio says:

    The Barberton / Summit County “beyond outrageous!” case was the Judy Johnson murder / Clarence Elkins case. It has been investigated and reported by numerous media: 48 Hours, Forensic Files, etc. The actual murderer-attacker of the little girl was Earl Mann. Clarence Elkins did nearly 7 years in prison for crimes he had absolutely nothing to do with. He was 40 miles away and asleep with his wife (daughter of the murder victim) when the crimes were committed.

    1. Leroy says:

      Yes, I remember the Clarence Elkins case.

      Summit County Prosecutors Office and judicial system (as well as elements within their various PDs) have had a reputation (bad) within the NE Ohio law enforcement community for years. Decades actually. Not some place that one would want to find themselves wrongfully charged. Time and time again I see cases were evidence surfaces where a convicted person isn’t guilty and the local response is “too bad, still guilty as far as we’re concerned”
      – of course that same situation exists in too many locals in this country…

    2. Leroy says:

      “Clarence Elkins settled with the state of Ohio for US$1.075 million. He later filed a civil suit against the Barberton police for failing to disclose the incriminating statement by Earl Mann during his 1999 arrest. Barberton police sought to have the case dismissed, but were blocked. The judge ruled that had Mann’s statement to Officer Gerard Antenucci been disclosed to the defense, they most likely would have noticed the proximity of Mann, a convicted felon, to the Johnson residence as well as the bizarre behavior of Tonia Brasiel on the morning following the murder. The DNA of Mann would have almost certainly been run and Elkins would almost certainly not been convicted. He later settled with the Barberton police for $5 million…. Clarence Elkins was instrumental in getting Ohio to pass Senate Bill 77, also known as Ohio’s Innocence Protection Act. This bill contains provisions requiring the police to follow best practices for eyewitness identifications, provides incentives for the videotaping of interrogations, and requires that DNA be preserved in homicide and sexual assault cases, among other things. Elkins spent countless hours pressing for what has been called the ‘national model’ of innocence reform bills, and the ‘most important piece of criminal justice legislation in Ohio in a century.’ “

      1. Bob in Ohio says:

        The Clarence Elkins case is the most important I ever worked on.
        Melinda was determined to get Clarence out of jail. She knew he
        was completely innocent. His years in prison destroyed their
        marriage, which was rocky. Some Summit County officials should
        be doing time / disbarred / fired for what amounts to criminal
        behavior, namely railroading an innocent man into a life sentence.
        I suggested to Clarence that he get out of Ohio for obvious reasons.

        1. Leroy says:

          You worked on that case?

          Activist role, PI?

          How about the abrupt retirement of that corrupt Akron mayor? Waiting to see what is RELY behind that!

          1. Bob in Ohio says:

            From my experiences, Summit Co. and CLE / Cuyahoga Co. have a lot in common,
            namely, gangs and official corruption. BTW, during the Vietnam war, I worked
            for No Such Agency. Got a Commendation while stationed in Germany. Learned
            Morse Code at age 14. Got a General Class FCC license at 16. Joined the Navy
            at 19, during the Vietnam war. Made E-5 in less than 2 years. Can’t do that
            now! Also, I’ve testified as an Expert Witness at trial.

          2. Leroy says:


            I joined Uncle Sam’s Moldy Crotch at age 17 (had a few MOS assignments but primarily 0311). I made E-4 before 2 years (of course promotions came a lot easier in the land of Eye Corps, FMF-WestPac)… and I was up for E-5 when I opted to take an “early out” (ESAD). The war was winding down (as far as mainstream involvement by U. S. ground forces) – and I had got married and had a kid in the way. But then The Corps was so much smaller that promotions in general tended to be slower (except in those specific situations where casualty rates pushed things along).

            A friend of my son-in-law (both Desert Storm era Marines) stayed in The Corps (the son-in-law discharged after first enlistment). His friend ended up going Recon and then Force Recon. He transferred into the Marine SpecOps field somewhere in the mid 2000s then (around the time he hit his 20, as a Sgt. Major) just dropped off the radar. From what I have since heard, he got recruited by the Christians In Action into their Special Activities Division / SOG and now works as a paramilitary.

            I still LMAO when th he admin staff at Parris Island thought that I was excellent officer material and wanted to push me up to OCS and then Platoon Leader’s Course. Turned out to be a big mix-Up due to my pretty high GMCT screening then led to taking an government service IQ test (154) combined then with a Training Company “First Shirt” pulling the wrong service record! It got quickly straightened out – as I sat there with a light cones, a major, two captains, a sergeant major… And the unfortunate First Sergeant! Ah, still makes me laugh.

          3. Bob in Ohio says:

            There were a lot of Early-Outs in Oct. 1970. I was stationed at NCS
            San Miguel, PI. I turned down a $10K VRB. After what happened to
            the Pueblo, Liberty and our intel. planes, AND Vietnam, I decided that
            Uncle Sam wasn’t watching out for us! They blamed CDR. Bucher for the
            taking of the Pueblo, but the Navy sent that little ship into extremely
            dangerous territory, off the N. Korean coast, with ZERO protection. Then
            the attack started, the Navy did not send help!!! Crew = expendable!
            One shipmate was killed. Then, our country allowed the N. Koreans to
            imprison / torture the Pueblo crew. Over 30 of our shipmates were killed
            by the Israelis when they attacked the Liberty. The ship had a large
            flag and big ID characters on it, so the Israelis HAD to know it was a
            U.S. Navy ship. The story is that the Israelis believed the Liberty was
            helping the Egyptians instead of them. Wasn’t that an Act of War by Israel
            against the U.S.? The cover-up is a strong indication of the power Israel
            has in the U.S. The crew was told to SAY NOTHING or face arrest! I could
            have easily been on that ship, on the Pueblo or that plane. But I got
            choice-of-duty out of Comm. school and went to Germany for 2 years. Marines
            guarded our Ops. buildings. It seemed to me that they got busted a lot
            faster than sailors.

          4. Leroy says:


            Funny, but when I got back to The World, my first duty station was at a very large U. S. Naval Base at their Marine Barracks. The interior base policing was done by DoD Police while we did Gate Duty, Perimeter Security, Guarding Nuclear Warhead storage sites… And ran The Brig. The Baracks personnel rotated through those assignments (other than a cadre that was permanent Brig personnel and a cadre of advanced security that led each team when securing the Nuke warhead sites). The Barracks was divided into a Starboard Section and Port Section and then each Section was the equivalent of 1/2 of a reinforced Rifle Company (in fact, we – like all Marine Barracks back then – were on the books as a Rifle Company… during the early days of the Korean War, Marine Barracks were stripped of personnel to flesh out the Infantry Regiments to full strength).

            I know that over 90% of Brig inmates were sailors! It seemed like they were treated quite nicely… LOL! I had rotated through the various posts (2 month assignments each) though only about three weeks with the Brig before getting transferred to Q-Town to a Training assignment (I didn’t know it then, but I was about 6 months from getting the ESAD).

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