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Sanders, Clinton, Norway, Denmark, and Sweden

From the Democratic Presidential Debate, October 13 2015:

Bernie Sanders: I think we should look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway, and learn from what they have accomplished for their working people.

Hillary Clinton: Well, let me just follow-up on that, Anderson, because when I think about capitalism, I think about all the small businesses that were started because we have the opportunity and the freedom in our country for people to do that and to make a good living for themselves and their families. And I don’t think we should confuse what we have to do every so often in America, which is save capitalism from itself. And I think what Senator Sanders is saying certainly makes sense in the terms of the inequality that we have.

But we are not Denmark. I love Denmark. We are the United States of America. And it’s our job to rein in the excesses of capitalism so that it doesn’t run amok and doesn’t cause the kind of inequities we’re seeing in our economic system. But we would be making a grave mistake to turn our backs on what built the greatest middle class in the history of the world.

Does the United States have the greatest middle class in the history of the world? What have countries like Denmark, Sweden and Norway accomplished for the working people who live there? Let’s compare Denmark, Sweden and Norway to the United States:

Income Share Held by the Lowest 20%:
Denmark: 8.5%
Norway: 9.3%
Sweden: 8.7%
United States: 5.1%

Life Expectancy at Birth [Girls, Boys]:
Denmark: 82, 78
Norway: 84, 80
Sweden: 84, 80
United States: 81, 77

Rate of women who die from pregnancy or within 42 of the end of pregnancy (# per 100,000 live births):
Denmark: 5
Norway: 4
Sweden: 4
United States: 28

Rate of children who die under the age of 5 (# per 1,000 live births):
Denmark: 4
Norway: 3
Sweden: 3
United States: 7

Babies born to teenaged mothers aged 15-19 (births per 1,000 women aged 15-19):
Denmark: 4
Norway: 6
Sweden: 6
United States: 24

Percent of all seats in national legislatures that are held by women:
Denmark: 39%
Norway: 40%
Sweden: 45%
United States: 19%

Government expenditure on education (% of GDP):
Denmark: 8.5%
Norway: 6.6%
Sweden: 6.5%
United States: 5.2%

Pupil to teacher ratio:
Denmark: not available
Norway: 9
Sweden: 10
United States: 14

Internet users per 100 people:
Denmark: 96.0
Norway: 96.3
Sweden: 92.5
United States: 87.4

Source: World Bank

Where would you prefer to live?

59 thoughts on “Sanders, Clinton, Norway, Denmark, and Sweden”

  1. ella says:

    In Norway and Sweden people live longer and there are more women in leadership positions. Women would have a better time in child bearing, live longer, have a better education system… Kinda shows how far the U.S. has slid doesn’t it?

    1. Leroy says:

      And with next year’s election, we could see a female in the top leadership position of this country, finally showing a step forward in one area!

  2. Leroy says:

    Yeah, well the GOP and One Percenters and Big Business can take credit for that major slide.

    But, hey, the United States leads the world in a number of areas:

    Defense Spending Total
    Defense Spending per capita
    Intelligence Services Spending Total
    Intelligence Services Spending per capita
    Persons Incarcerated Total
    Persons Incarcerated per capita

    So we’re still Number One in SOME things!

    1. Jim Cook says:

      Incarceration is a big deal. Combined with privatization of prisons, it means that citizens are being turned into chits.

      1. Leroy says:


  3. Leroy says:

    Hey, according to WHO, we are at least tied with Costa Rica and Cuba!

  4. Leroy says:


    “On the most comprehensive list, the United States ranks 11th out of 156 countries. Here are the top 10 and their populations: Denmark, 5.6 million; Finland, 5.4 million; Norway, 5 million; Netherlands, 16.7 million; Canada, 34.8 million; Switzerland, 7.9 million; Sweden, 9.5 million; New Zealand, 4.4 million; Australia, 22.9 million; and Ireland, 4.6 million.”

    1. Leroy says:

      Which however just reports on the tracking done of 39 countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) as based on their specific criteria.

  5. Leroy says:

    Or Infant Mortality rates:

    Well, we are better than Serbia (but worse than Coatia…. and Bosnia and Hungary and Greece and Cuba and Portugal – no First World country ranked worse than the United States).

    That is a sad indictment of our health care system.

    1. Jim Cook says:

      I hate to say anything good about the CIA, but they really do publish a good Fact Book.

      1. Leroy says:


        I know what you mean

        Whatever else, their overall Fact Books (by subject) and Country Fact Books are exceptional in accuracy (reasonable accuracy anyway).

  6. c handler says:

    we are free…the only country that is supposed to be free in many ways…but since socialist leaning presidents and the crookedness of all of washington…we are less free.

    1. Leroy says:


      Socialist leaning president???


      So Obama and Bush?

      Bush – where all the problems began and matured – was the opposite of a socialist leaning president. He was a Fascist leaning president.

      And then you have a predominately far rightwing Congress and a very conservative Supreme Court!

      But it is the fault of a “socialist leaning president” (you have to be talking about Obama who is barely a liberal and has been overwhelmed by a reactionary Congress most of the time)?

      And all of those “horrible” democratic socialist countries (like Norway, Sweden, Denmmark, Germany, Japan, Singapore, etcetera) are also free democracies – and surpass us in so many areas it would make a strong person weep.

  7. ella says:

    Did you know that Ben Carson is worth $26 million dollars? No wonder he can take a week off campaigning to write another book. He wants to add to his fortune. Maybe he’s writing about how to be a Presidential candidate without knowing how to balance a checkbook or manage your medical practice. Or how to fluff off issues of involvement in medicines/pills that went south. Not the richest, but far from the poorest in the group. Or a medical malpractice suit. But even so, most of his patients, even those who were damaged and/or settled out of court, still like Carson. One still has a problem that seriously points out something, Carson came up through public assistance, even his education, but he won’t work on this patient because she is on now on Medicaid. And specialized doctors do not take Medicaid?
    “For Karly Bailey, whether she prevails against Carson is a point of principle. She is currently receiving Medicaid and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) income, she said.”

    “I can’t get the care I need on my Medicaid plan from a neuropathologist because they have very special skills,” she said. “And they ain’t gonna take Medicaid.”

    1. Leroy says:

      Too bad that they chose to NOT print any stories about those who didn’t like him and don’t agree with him.

      The media in control again.

      1. ella says:

        Media is beginning to pay more attention to Carson now that he has maintained a high rating this long. Liking him is not the point. He is very likable, or puts up that front well enough. After all he was a surgeon, had to have some patient manners. Right now I put his “poor” boy claims in question. I have looked through several sites and find that he was behind all of them, along with many of his current claims. They match in wording too closely. As mentioned, he said that he went to Yale because “…it was all the money I had…”. That just sounds odd with “poor”, even with Pell Grants and loans. Someone has to back up the loan, or he had to have collateral. There are many other points though, ones that could greatly affect his ability to govern, even if he has any such ability to begin with.

        1. Leroy says:


          I have dealt with a lot of doctors and a lot of surgeons (17 surgeries, mostly for IOD – injuries in the line of duty – but some were by the same surgeon… let’s see, that would be 8 of the surgeries were done by 4 doctors, so I personally and closely know like 13 surgeons – and many more doctors).

          And believe me, being a surgeon or specialist or regular doctor by NO way means that you are a “likeable person”.

          I am personal friends with two of my doctors. I get along extremely well with a couple others (including a couple surgeons). The rest are – at best – “so-so” and there have been a couple that I walked out on in the middle of an appointment!

          That’s a very naive comment!

          1. ella says:

            It seems your perception is different from mine. I have run into doctors I greatly disliked and then again those few who were honest enough to speak with, and the ones who wouldn’t tell the truth if they knew it, as it seemed, they may have known the truth. I know doctors have different personalities and ethics as well. But they all have in common that if they want too, they can be quite personable, and that is what I referred to concerning Dr. Carson. He obviously has another side. The camera has caught him at the debates several times when he was looking at Trump in a not so kind manner. That is coming out to some degree now anyway.

          2. Leroy says:

            Yeah, right.

            Doctors have this AMAZING ability.

            You are truly clueless.

            I am starting to realize that you make stuff up as you go along… especially when caught red-handed in a fairytale!

          3. ella says:

            I hadn’t read this post until today, Leroy, and no one made you manager of my person. What do you do other than believe that you have a monopoly on all knowledge? An acquired knowledge of how many who had to live to acquire the knowledge? You have accused me on more than one occasions now of “making up things”. If you don’t understand something I say, then say so, quit being ignorant.

          4. Leroy says:


            You do the same thing also. You have accused me of not having a clue. You have accused me of not having a leg to stand on.

            What does this even mean?

            “An acquired knowledge of how many who had to live to acquire the knowledge?”

            Knowledge is simply FACTS. It is not acquired experience from thousands or millions of experiences. Those experiences can be non factual experiences based on opinion that were repeated over and over again.

            For hundreds and hundreds of years educated knowledgeable men (as well as the mass of uneducated) KNEW that the earth was flat and that the Sun revolved around the earth as that was the opinion of the ruling church. It wasn’t the experiences of millions of people who established the truth, who grasped the FACT. It was a handful of people who questioned those opinion based “experiences”.

            Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own facts. That is BASIC logic.

            But then it likely isn’t going to matter anyway as I am likely leaving this site.

            When a MODERATOR makes unsubstantiated accusations… I think that crossed a line.

          5. ella says:

            True, when you make unsubstantiated comments about me, it is not a good thing. But I am all grown up now and take it for what it is.

          6. Leroy says:

            Also, Ella, as far as making comments that don’t make any sense (read aloud your quote as I re-posted above) you conceded as much in another article to my nephew (Jason) and thanked him for his ACCURATE criticism:

            “It would seem that is the way of it lately. Still, I say something most times. Thank you for being honest in your assessment, criticism. It is accurate.”

          7. ella says:

            Just because I did not mention that you moved my reply to the bottom of your blog on religion, which is not where it went, don’t think I do not remember it. And you seem to need to call me something that I am not. Good of you to drop in though.

          8. ella says:

            I am guessing you have not been able to find anything concerning Robert Solomon Carson. I was only guessing that was Ben Carson’s father and there was no information concerning him online. But whatever. Sorry to have bothered you.

          9. Leroy says:

            When you make unsubstantiated comments about opinions (or worse, propaganda) as being facts, it is not good either.

            In fact, it is pretty bad.

            But I’m all grown up now and have learned to not let misinformation go unchallenged.

            Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but no one is entitled to their own facts. Facts are slimy facts. A million people chanting a lie for a hundred years does not make it the truth.

            And honestly, I had no idea that you wanted me to look up information on Ben Carson’s father (did you ask that somewhere and I missed it?). I don’t know if Robert Solomon Carson is his father or not (yet).

            I am more concerned as to who the inventor of Seventh Day Adventist Church is, as my information is that she was a notorious liar.

          10. ella says:

            Ellen Gould White (Harmon)m. James White: was the founder of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. (Locally someone named Mary is a big person, not the Biblical Mary.) 1863 The Smithsonian magazine named Ellen G. White among 100 Most Significant Americans[1] in an acknowledgement of her influence on religion.[2][3]. She was respected and many thought of her as a Prophetess. Whether she was a liar or not I do not know. She was in the Protestant movement of the time and, obviously, had a profound effect on her followers. What was taught at that time, well…I won’t question that, I don’t know enough about it to do so. What has happened in the past 100 years though, illustrates how time causes ideas to go astray. People become delusional, believing they are Jesus, whether in this church or not, and just as spectacularly. Different sects have developed though, with their own customs, within the different Conferences. Anyway, Ellen G. White is the founder of the church

          11. Robert Milnes says:

            Leroy, wtf? I thought you said you were leaving this site.

          12. Leroy says:


            “Ben Carson was born in Detroit, Michigan, the son of Sonya (née Copeland) and Robert Solomon Carson, a Baptist minister and later Cadillac factory worker. Both parents came from large families in rural Georgia and were living in rural Tennessee when they met and married. Carson’s mother was only 13 when she married Carson’s father. Carson’s mother subsequently discovered her husband had another family, in with Carson’s father eventually moved.”

            I will have some information on Ellen G. White at a later post. Aside from Biblical fictions (she was supposedly a prophet, had visions, had a vision to start a brand new cult, uh, sect, er, denomination, whatever). These are more along the lines of hypocrisies in what she preached versus what she did.

            I also see where someone new to this article apparently can’t read. WTH, that wasn’t what I said.

            But then I can’t say that fantasy world of his is unusual.

          13. Leroy says:

            Wait, wait….

            I just read:

            “Just because I did not mention that you moved my reply to the bottom of your blog on religion, which is not where it went, don’t think I do not remember it.”

            That I moved your reply?

            To the bottom of MY blog?

            I moved nothing – and it is not my blog.

            I am just a Commenter here, like you.

            I’m not a Moderator here. (In fact, I have major issues with one of the chicken$hit Moderators here)

            So if your reply got moved on their blog, then completely to someone else, not me!

          14. ella says:

            Okay, I don’t know why who did that, but it seriously changed the meaning of it.

          15. Leroy says:

            Well, whatever, Ella, but it wasn’t me.

            In any case, I am preparing to move on. Some research showed that Irregular Times has something like less than 700 “Likes” on Facebook (over how many years?) and a website statistics company shows that it gets on average less than a thousand views daily (and according to the email from their rep, a “view” counts as each time any page is accessed. So if on the same day you check out 2 new pages and then return to an older article twice that day to post information, well, that would count as FOUR views for that day!

            And then it shows (in this article here) 56 comments. Well, that is actually comments by like ONLY 5 people, with only one or maybe two postings from three of them!). The rest are you and me.

            That hit me last night when I was on another article – and so I started checking.

            I was amazed to find the number of much larger and much better progressive / liberal blog type websites out there. Ones with usually great articles (not occasionally), ones with several thousand hits a day and articles where numerous people (sometimes scores) post comments. I have already subscribed to a couple of them.

            In fact, I noted that on another website page that tracks “progressive / liberal websites” (how I found some of the others, bookmarking ones that were non comment news type sites while looking more for blog ones where there’s comments posted) – and found that Irregular Times didn’t even make the Top 100.

            No wonder someone like Milnes is welcomed (even encouraged).

          16. ella says:

            Well, bye.

          17. Leroy says:

            Not yet, Ella… still a bit before I pull the plug.

            I get a chance, I’ll post a couple links to some Blog sites that I think you’d like.

    1. ella says:

      Yes, Bernie is learning that Hillary has switched to all the points that were successful when he brought them up. She ain’t stupid and change spots unlike most cats. Hillary has changed direction so many times she has to has secretaries to write them down so she can say how she has learned that was the right thing to do. Has to be reminded which way she flipped. 🙂

      1. Leroy says:

        Something NONE of the Republican candidates have ever done! (Flip repeatedly on issues or lie about what they said before on an issue – or even actually given a detailed answer on many topics)!!!


        1. ella says:

          Although this is about Hillary, it is also about two famous killings by cops. It is the first time I have read what really happened and it is really surprising that Hillary is now associating herself in a sympathetic manner with those families. Remember “Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown” as “victims of gun violence.”? Here is a telling of what happened that finally tells the truth all in one place, not a leaked fact one at a time over months. And that is what Hillary is now backing, to get the White House. Billary in action.

          1. Leroy says:

            Bearing Arms?

            Bearing Arms?


            LMAO big time!

            Bearing Arms is a VERY rightwing WEBSITE. Not an online news organization by ANY definition (like CNN, MSNBC, Huffington Post, Business Insider, NYT, WSJ, etcetera, etcetera – those are all fully accredited NEWS organizations and – unlike Fox News – considered relatively unbiased).

            I see your problem.

            REAL news sources are liars while your pet websites with their agenda driven and highly biased articles (not news stories) are the Gospel Truth!


            That “logic” is so typically conservative.

          2. ella says:

            You don’t have a clue. I read them all and sometime you should check out how many times the same view is offered by some of those same sites you claim to be so great. Huffpost and Politico as very much alike. Fox News carries news, watching the news programs, and is as good at playing on viewer emotions.

          3. Leroy says:

            They say the same thing because that is what the truth is.

            Fox News says something different because it’s a lie.

            But, I’m done with all this countering back and forth. If you post something wrong or just plain silly, I’ll post a correction of that initial post, but I’m done with the back and forth.

            You not only just don’t get it, but I truly fear that you truly have a problem.

            And the true bottom line is that ignorance in this Age of Information is so offensive as to be an abomination.

        1. ella says:

          Bernie is starting to bring it on. I wonder about the polls that say Hillary is ahead by such a large margin. But then someone pays those people to take polls. I wonder… Of course that could work in many ways for any candidate.

          1. Leroy says:

            Ella, Ella, Ella…

            You are so naive and so much of a, hmmmm, conspiratorialist.

            You can NOT really believe that candidates or PACs or wealthy supporters are really paying off polling companies, MAJOR polling companies, very highly credible polling companies that have exceptionally high reputations to “rig the polling results”. Please tell me that you don’t really believe that.

            The FIRST time that ANY of the major polling / survey companies got caught rigging the data or results (and they are big companies and very competitive with each other as far as trying their best to get legitimately accurate results that any fraudulent activity WOULD come out – and that company would be ruined beyond repair).

            Now there ARE polls that are run (but not by the major polling companies) by the political parties themselves (the RNC is infamous for doing that) or run by some Super PAC. No independent polling company does those “polls”, they are run by that political party or Super PAC itself! And they are simply… IGNORED. The real media knows that those results are biased and lacking credibility, so don’t use them.

            Unfortunately, SOME of the real media like to use “Open Access” polling (though polling is an inaccurate term). But even most of them put a DISCLAIMER NOTICE in there affirming that it is NOT a legitimate, scientific poll (an example is the telephone and online “poll” that CNBS ran during the last GOP debate… that was definitely a Voodoo Poll!). But again, when polls are considered and averaged by the real media, those Open Access / Voodoo Polls are not taken into consideration.

            In the United States, some notable companies that specialize in primarily in polling include:

            – Gallup poll
            – Harris Poll
            – Ipsos
            – National Opinion Research Center
            – Pew Research Center
            – Rasmussen Reports
            – Zogby International

            (Potential for inaccuracy is a good section to read twice!)


            (“A voodoo poll (or pseudo-poll) is a pejorative description of an opinion poll with no statistical or scientific reliability, which is therefore not a good indicator of opinion on an issue. A voodoo poll will tend to involve self-selection, will be unrepresentative of the target population, and is often very easy to rig by those with a partisan interest in the results of the poll.

            The term was coined by Sir Robert Worcester, founder of legitimate polling company MORI, which he chaired for 36 years to June 2005, with special reference to ‘phone-in’ polls. He used the term in British newspaper The Independent on July 23, 1995 to show how easy it was to rig a phone-in poll by voting nine times. The term is still used to refer to unscientific, unrepresentative and unreliable polls.”)

          2. ella says:

            Oh yes, and of course Carson majored in psychology at Yale and then went to the U. of Michigan for the Doctorate in medicine. Psychology comes in handy for surgeons and politicians. Of course there is politics in school too. I fondly remember the woman who rammed my Chevy broadside with the new steel bumper, hood, and front quarter panels her daddy had put on her ‘Vet. He was tired of the car repairs. Yawn, ho hum, and oh well. So he paid for another car for me.

          3. Leroy says:

            Absolutely without any sense.

          4. ella says:

            I subscribe to Rasmussen. And the Democrats run their own polls as well as the RNC. TV stations tend to say their statistics come from this or that poll. Not all of them are those you have mentioned, which are credible ones, I agree. This isn’t to undercut Carson’s day of fame, but I ran into an article that mentions what happened to those co-joined twins he separated: “(In Ravensburg, Germany, a local physician said the boys were too disabled to live at home and were staying at a facility for handicapped children in the area.)” It is to point out that they both did survive, for that it was a success. That said, in the years that follow there were successes and not so much so cases, as was to be expected. The article was written in 1993, NYT.

            I can’t find when Dr. Carson retired.

          5. ella says:

            Never mind, I found it. June 2013 from one source.

  8. Leroy says:

    Or Ben now dissing the military processes by lying about those processes:

  9. ella says:

    Bernie Sanders has gained an endorsement. The Postal Union is supporting him. As Hillary is facing further possible complications over testimony and an FBI investigation, this could actually be a great benefit for him. Bernie has been behind in the polls, but still a major opponent. I haven’t read any articles that say they do not like Bernie, it is just that Hillary was “expected” to be the nominee. Is that Democratic?

    ” “Politics as usual has not worked. It’s time for a political revolution,” Postal Workers President Mark Dimondstein said in a statement, invoking the battle cry of the Vermont senator. “Bernie Sanders stands above all others as a true champion of postal workers and other workers throughout the country. He doesn’t just talk the talk. He walks the walk.” ”

  10. ella says:

    Yes, Leroy, I see where you have a grudge fest with Republicans. Politics isn’t clean, on either side. But the RNC is not really running the show any more and hasn’t for years. Priebus, who I actually thought was representing the RNC, is actually acting on his own hubris. To say that I do not like what he has done is an understatement. Who is actually running the country when individuals now operate a political party, as say, the owner of the Dallas Cowboys? It makes me wonder if – or who – is running the Democrat Party. Is it the DNC, or is there a major PAC with an individual behind it, that is pulling the strings? Someone here got into PACs sometime back, and really I sort of shrugged and watched the conversation without taking it as seriously as I should have. Having a personal vote controlled is not what I grew up with. Although I know how that works, block votes are nothing new. Still, I remain independent, it is my decision who I vote for and that will be who I believe will best represent the country and has the best for the country at heart. This election it would be nice if my choice won. Of course if not, then let it be the will of the voters, not the controllers.

    1. Leroy says:


      Can you say that you do not have a “grudge fest” against Hillary?

      So if I greatly dislike the MMESSAGES of all the Republican candidates or their campaign positions, that means that I have a grudge fest?

      Heck, I liked Eisenhower. A lot. He was the last GOOD Republican president IMO. And I loved Teddy Roosevelt (of course, he was a PROGRESSIVE Republican… a very rare animal). And of course the first Republican, Abraham Lincoln.

      I just don’t understand how you can be supportive of socialist Bernie Sanders while also supportive (at times, but often) of Carson and Trump. Their positions on campaign issues are totally opposite.

      Do you base your support on their personalities? On how they talk? Or on their positions on campaign issues. Personalities are nice, but campaign positions are what you have to live with!

      But, no, don’t answer that!

      I won’t understand it anyway!

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