Irregular Times Diaries: Unfit Discussion
In a time of the spring, old paths are obscured and new growth begins.
Irregular Times Diaries: Unfit DiscussionIn a time of the spring, old paths are obscured and new growth begins.
There are a few things I question about American ideals in general. Well, let’s not beat around the bush, there are a lot of things I question about American ideals. But one thing has always been at the top of my questions: Why do so many Americans hate communism?
Now I know the history about communism and socialism and I know about the two most notorious nations to claim these as their economic systems. Respectively Russia and Germany. And I can understand how the history of those two nations would give communism and socialism a bad name. But the more I’ve come to learn, the more I see a difference and how people mistake Communism with Stalinism. Communism in and of itself is, to the best of my understanding, an economic system in which the wealth is distributed evenly and the means of production is owned by the state and the nation becomes a classless society. Socialism is the economic system in which the means of production is controlled by the workers. I have to ask myself; what is so bad about that?
Around the 1950’s, a fella came into office by the name of Joseph McCarthy and he gained support by whipping up Americans into an anticommunist frenzy. He equated a communist with being a traitor. Doesn’t that go against the constitution and the intention of the founding fathers that you should be free to practice whatever political view you have as well as whatever religious view you have?
More to the point, I have to ask myself; what is so great about capitalism? We live in a capitalist nation (violently capitalist in my opinion) and what has it brought? A few individuals gain wealth at the expense of the masses. The majority of the population is left to struggle or else starve while 1% of the population lives in a mansion that can be as large as a city block and a property line that’ll stretch from here to the west coast. The vast minority of people living in this country get access to the finest medical care available while the majority are left without treatment and basically left to die; gods forbid they need a surgery like a heart transplant. Those upper crust people also have the money to be able to buy votes from politicians to keep the minimum wage from being raised, then reward them with nice jobs once they’re out of office. The CEO of an oil company gets 400 billion dollars in a retirement package while the average guy gets…AARP. Yeah, that’s real equal. To me, the system of capitalism is little more than a modern usage of the ancient European ideas of nobility. The lords of the land (the wealthy 1%) make money from the peasantry (the other 99%) while doing almost none of the work. The only difference here is that the lords have no obligation to protect their peasants. In fact, come war time, they’ll do whatever it takes to keep from fighting.
I look at the examples of communism and I see a much better way of thinking. A classless society, medical care for everyone, a living wage, a standard of living, education for the poor and so forth.
But what gets me is why, why do so many Americans hate communism? What has given them these anticommunist ideals? Why didn’t Americans rally in the streets after Bush turned down Castro’s offer of 1,500 doctors after Katrina? If communism is so bad, why has Venezuela offered us oil so cheaply after the ecological disasters of the last two years?
People tell me “The USSR broke up and Cuba’s citizens are starving; that’s proof that communism doesn’t work” but to me it’s just proof that communism would work if the most powerful nation on the planet wouldn’t refuse trade with anyone who does business with a communist country.
I write this and I’m not sure if I’ll be investigated by the Department of Homeland Insecurity. Has the McCarthyism of the ’50’s and ’60’s died down enough for me to speak freely about counter-capitalist ideals? I strongly doubt it, but I feel I should use my right to free speech and voice my opinion even if it does go against the status-quo. Isn’t that the essence of liberty? Isn’t that the ideals enshrined in the constitution? Is it really treason for people to search for a better way of life if they keep getting screwed by the current system?
There have been many conservatives and republicans who will, after hearing me voice my liberal opinions, call me a commie. Well shit, if wanting progressive change in the government; wanting the government to ensure a living wage; and feeling that everyone has a right to medical care and education rather than just those who can afford it and let the rest die then yeah, I guess I am a pinko leftist commie. If that’s what being a commie means then I’m as red as a fucking traffic light.
I guess I should sum this up. I don’t understand why so many people hate communism after looking around at what has become of a capitalist country.
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May 13th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
Outstanding article. I feel that the reason communism is still looked down(hell, if you apply for a job at some places, they’ll ask “Have you ever been a member or associated with the Communist party?) is because of the usual B.S., how many conservatives talk about how the then-U.S.S.R. was doomed to fail, etc, etc.
I happen to agree with the ideals of communism. Does that make me any less of a patriot that I also want and desire equality for all citizens, and not just the top one percent in this country that hog up our resources while Joe Six-Pack gets practically nothing in return? I tend to think it does not, and I feel honestly that it’d have a better reputations if the people who have tried it in the past weren’t so Godsdamn evil, like they were. We are at a point in time in this country that we need to do something, and soon, as the economic gap between the so-called haves and have-nots is widening and it doesn’t appear o be closing anytime soon, especially with these ridiculous tax cuts that are geared towards the rich that my potential children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren will have to pony up for, which is sickening. Our dollar is losing value, I mean i could on and on as to why capitalism is something that wouldn’t benefit the people very much at all. If communism never gets installed here in America, I’d be happy with Democratic Socialism as well. Great Job, D.
May 14th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
Does anyone still read George Orwell’s Animal Farm?
May 15th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Dear Comrade Joe. Wait, I’m Joe too. Nice to meet you.
I’m very concerned with your sense of infidelity to a true
Communist Cause. Nothing but Crazy Checks ..oops Justice for
all will do. A complete Communism. Trains will run on time.
And some of us will pretend to work, and we’ll pretend to pay them.
Our Peoples Health care will make sure you could see a doctor Free.
(Of course doctors will receive a Government salary set by me, so
can’t say about quality).
Your children will join hands with other children of the world, and
sing songs of peace. (Just wear rubber gloves, TB and crap..)
So look at our Dear Comrades Hillary!, Kennedy (D-from Chappaquiddik),
and Ruth Bader Ginzburg for leadership. (don’t gaze at Ruth too much
bad for reproductive gland)
And soon everything will be free. Just some of us gong to be a little more
equal than the others. And this capitalist swine Orwell stole idea from me.
Lovingly ,
Comrade Stalin (Uncle Joe to you)
P.S. Should you decide to hang yourself, I happen to have surplus rope
at attractive Peoples price.
May 15th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Well, I don’t know what’s worse: Being a communist, or being a right-wing facist like the poster above. Only Limbaugh brings up Chappaquiddick and Hilary in that sense. Now, if only you took the time to look at how “well” facism is going in this country, you might wanna think twice about pulling more crap like that out the other side of your mouth. The Republicans don’t know anything about America, nor communism, other than what their propagandists on talk radio, Fox News and mainstream media have force-fed them. Open a book, you tools! Read up on the history and stop letting other people think for you.
May 16th, 2006 at 2:29 am
Damen and Jose,
I think Marx had some interesting critiques of capitalism that are still relevant, but when I look at the way Communism played out over the course of the twentieth century, I just can’t get excited over it.
In Russia, China, and yes, Cuba, Communist revolutions put huge amounts of power into a very small number of hands, which is exactly NOT what Communism is supposed to do.
When I look at land reform under Stalin or the disasters that were the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution under Mao, I can’t help seeing a reflection of some of the problems we’re having under Bush–who by the way has WAY too much power after 9/11 in the U.S.A.
Under Stalin and Mao, ideology completely trumped reason as a basis for policy.
When Stalin ordered rich landowners to hand over their livestock to peasant farmers, he didn’t say anything about handing over meat. So the rich farmers slaughtered all their livestock at once. Tens of millions of people died.
During the great leap forward, agricultural collectives competed to show who could increase rice yields. People actually believed that proletarian enthusiasm was something that could increase rice yields by 1000%. It wasn’t. The collectives were yanking up rice from other paddies and stuffing it into the paddies the official inspectors would see. Mao figured that since rice yields were up so much, he could move a lot of workers over to beating the West in steel production. Over the next few years, China produced more steel than the West–useless lumps of crap. Meanwhile, tens of millions of people died.
Now to be fair, Bush’s policies have killed hundreds of thousands of people rather than tens of millions. He’s no Stalin.
But the so-called Texas education miracle was a shell game based on widespread cheating, and it’s the template for the “No Child Left Behind” debacle that’s going to turn into the same thing. NCLB can no more bring 100% of children up to grade level than proletarian vigor can increase rice yields 1000%.
And need I mention that the Iraq War was going to be a “cake walk?” That it was going to pay for itself? And that it’s still “going well,” and we’ve “turned a corner?” Ideology trumps reason, and people die by the thousands and suffer by the millions.
That’s exactly what you get when you put too much power in too few hands, and let ideology trump reason in determining policy. But you get the same thing under Communism.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:34 am
Greg,
I’ve said before that I don’t confuse communism with Stalinism. You can take a look at the problems that’ve been had with communism in the past and learn a way to rectify those problems.
Now one thing you’ll never hear me say is that total communism or total socialism would work. Total anything never works. You need to have a blending of two forms of government before it’ll work. To me, I think Democratic Socialism would work the best. Have a democracy, let the people choose who they want in office for the next…however long, and still distribute the wealth equally. And when you tell the rich landowners to turn over all their livestock, tell them they must turnover the livestock and all that comes from the livestock. The biggest problem that communism and socialism have to face is the fact that for a long time they were used as the economic systems of tyrants. If you put a responsible leader in control of a communist government, it can work so long as it is left alone.
The thing is, for any system of government to work, the US would have to abandon this anticommunist ideals because all it is doing these days is hurting the world.
Now let me make a comparison between Stalin, Saddam, and Bush.
Stalin was a tyrant who had a major hatred of the west.
Saddam killed thousands of his own people.
Bush has a major hatred of the middle east and would rather let his citizens starve and die from preventable illness while giving his buddies tax cuts and government funding to his selected churches.
I’m just wondering how many people in the USA who, after paying their bills, look at their paychecks and have to decide who’s gonna eat tonight; them or their kids?
I appreciate your thought out response, Greg, but you still haven’t addressed the underlying questions in my original post: why, for what reason, do so many Americans have these anticommunist attitudes? What is so bad about communism in and of itself?
~Damen
May 16th, 2006 at 11:25 am
Comrade who thinks he’s my daddy. We here in peoples commetee
on literacy would like to know what books you been reading.
These capitalist pigs at FOX news will pay some day for spreading
reactionary propaganda and selling those Westen Goods (we see seldom)
to fat American Dunbasses like Rush. He will aswer to The People!
I myself not a reader but a writer of decrees ,so People will not lost way.
I feed , clothe and provide roofs over the heads of workers.
NO PRIVATE CAPITALIST PROPERTY ALLOWED!
As for benefits of communism we can ask that question of Dear Leader KIm.
The Great North Korean People very happy living in His Paradise.
Of course you understand we cannot allow you to asl the People ,so they not get
contaminated with free thinking. We’ll think for them.
Lovingly,
Comrade Stalin.
P.S. What was the name of my daddy? If you are so well read. Google it.
May 16th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
We already have democratic socialism in the United States. Look at our roads and highways–state owned, every one of them. Look at our armed forces–state owned. You get the idea.
Every successful state has combined socialist state-run programs with free-market capitalism. The U.S. won’t admit it, but we do it too. Unfortunately, anti-Communist rhetoric is so effective in the U.S. that people here can use it undermine attempts to establish state-run programs for the public good, even in areas like health care where it has been definitively demonstrated that socialist medicine works better.
Why do so many Americans have such strong anti-Communist attitudes? Because China and the U.S.S.R. were genuine threats, first of all. Second of all, because politicians and businessmen in the United States manipulated anti-Communist hysteria to their own ends. They encouraged a distorted form of fear that didn’t take a close look at what Communism really was, what kind of threats it really posed. Media and education promoted blind fear and hatred of Communism.
What is so bad about Communism in and of itself? For hardline Communism, the answer is easy: A violent revolution that puts a lot of power in the hands of a very few people with very highly charged ideological convictions is a recipe for disaster.
Democratic socialism is completely different–ideological propaganda aside, every functional democracy has a large socialist sector; even if Americans refuse to call their roads, schools, and armed forces “socialized” institutions, they are.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:05 pm
Greg and Damen,
You both seem well-read and have interesting views on this subject. However, there are some enormous aspects of this situation that you are both missing. The reason communism is hated so widely is because it is COMPLETELY against the American way of life. America is all about freedom, choice and opportunity. Under a Communist or socialist system those options are nonexistent. The reason that our country has become the most powerful country in the world is not because of some massive conspiracy or because we are this evil nation that has conquered or manipulated the world. This country is what it is today because we were the first country in the history of the world to offer to the people what they truly wanted. A society, secured by government, but free to the people, even controlled by the people. To say that capitalism has failed because there are very wealthy people here is completely false. Speaking as a person who grew up in a upper middle class family where my dad worked hard to get through college, grad school, and to become a lawyer. It offends me when people say that the wealthy do not work for their means. That is complete bullshit. There are many people in our society who work their ass of everyday so that they can be successful. Many times the successful ones are the people who are willing to sacrifice many of their other pleasures in order to put in the extra work. To add to this, if we lived under a communist state, what motivates the public to work? There is no incentive for ingenuity, creativity, or extra work. Everyone gets the same and it is impossible to receive more. Unless you are willing to cheat the system and criminally harm other people (which is exactly what happened under Stalin). This is the MAJOR flaw in communism. People will never be satisfied under it and there will always be people who are willing to do whatever necessary to overcome those around them. However, under capitalism, there is a legal and safe way to do that, simply by working hard and being the best. Communism is a noble ideal. I wish that no one would starve and that life would be perfect, but that is just not realistic. A communist form of government is impossible to control and corruptible beyond belief. To believe that you can be a patriotic American and believe in Communism is comparable to a person believing that they are a devout Catholic but do not believe in the Holy Trinity or the divinity of Mary (i’m not Catholic by the way). In closing, I respect your guys’ opinions and I think you are both argue a good base but before you go and say that capitalism is wrong and communism is right try to contemplate over the situation a little more. (By the way my cousin was in Canada a few weeks ago and he began throwing up uncontrollably. Eventually he was coughing up blood and he honestly felt like he was going to die. He went to a hospital in Toronto, and after waiting for over three hours where he was vomiting in the hospital bathroom for most of the time, he saw the doctor. The doctor looked over him for about two minutes and said he seemed okay and that he should just take some aspiring and wait it out. The feelings continued however and he made several trips back, the doctors saying the same things everytime. Eventually he came back to America and saw a doctor in Chicago. The doctor diagnosed him with some form of infection that was causing internal hemmoraging (dont think I spelled that right) and he gave him some antibiotics. Within a week the vomiting and bleeding stopped and he was fine. That, my friends is what universal healthcare gives you. Shitty healthcare for everyone.
May 19th, 2006 at 1:20 am
Well first of all Dan, let me thank you for acknowledging that I’m well read and interesting. I understand how you think I could be missing an enormous aspect of this, but allow me to respectfully disagree.
You say that “To believe that you can be a patriotic American and believe in Communism is comparable to a person believing that they are a devout Catholic but do not believe in the Holy Trinity or the divinity of Mary.”
I spoke to that issue when I observed that extremist ideology leads to disastrous policy. Stalin and Mao formulated policies based on ideology rather than reality, and they were absolute disasters. Bush’s faith-based policies have also had poor results, for similar reasons.
Your comparison of religious faith and orientation toward economic policy is interesting. The very definition of faith is strong belief in the absence of evidence. It was unquestioning “belief in Communism,” as you put it, that convinced Mao that proletarian vigor could increase rice yields 1000% per acre. But tax cuts will no more reduce deficits enough to pay for a $200,000,000,000 war than proletarian vigor will increase rice yields by a factor of ten–Bush’s unquestioning “belief” in neo-conservative ideology has led us down the path of policy disaster.
Your definition of “being a patriotic American” is a faith-like devotion. Maybe that’s patriotism as you understand it. But it goes completely against the vision of the founding fathers, and the principles of civic responsiblity in a democracy. Democracy demands critical, active participation in policy formulation from its citizens. Unquestioning loyalty might be easier, and it might make you feel better, but it’s a betrayal of your responsibility as an American.
I’m sorry about what happened to your cousin, and I’m glad he’s better. I fell off a motorcycle when I was in France and cut up my face really bad. It took three hours of surgery and fifty stitches to close all the cuts and re-attach most of an eyelid. The doctor did an outstanding job. You can look right at my face today and not even see the scars. All that surgery plus a night in the hospital was free. Since then, I’ve had nothing bad to say about French medicine. The statistics back this up–the French system of socialized medicine gives better quality care for the dollar than the American system.
Americans tend to value faith quite a bit, and think that it’s a good thing. Religious faith may or may not be a good thing, that’s another debate altogether. But when you start worshiping nationalism and political ideology like gods, you get into lots of trouble fast. This is something most Americans can’t seem to understand.
The fact is that there has never been a successful state that has not had fairly strong public and private sectors. Do you REALLY want to privatize everything? The highways? The army? The legal system? Of course not. The debate we should be having is not whether we should have some socialism, but how much socialism we should have, how it should operate, how much we should leave to the private sector under what kind of regulation. Unfortunately, we will not have this debate in America, because too many people cling to unquestioned ideological convictions, and are too quick to accuse each other of being “anti-American.”
May 19th, 2006 at 3:44 am
Dan,
I appreciate your thought out response, but I think you too have missed one aspect that I brought up in my original topic.
You have, by and large, mistaken Communism with Stalinism. In everything that I have read and know about communism as devised by Karl Marx, communism and socialism have nothing to do with censorship or dictatorship. The fact of the matter is that the most noteworthy communist nations have also adopted a vastly perverted version of communism. Communism is, again from what I have learned, a system of economics which can be summed up in the words “ownership by the state.” Now, this is a system which I do not totally agree with. I tend to think more along the lines of “ownership by the workers” which is the basis of socialism.
That said, liberty and anti-censorship which you site as the definition of the American way of life is, I really am loath to say, only granted by the whims of those in power. Think about it, the White House has already leaned heavily on the media to keep quite on embarrassing issues (torture, NSA spying, contents of the Patriot Act) until the holidays when Americans wouldn’t be watching the TV. Your liberty can be taken away as easily as those in power can scare the masses.
I, myself, am hoping to one day become a gunsmith. I like guns, I think they’re fascinating pieces of machinery and I enjoy going to the range and firing off a few rounds from time to time. But I also am aware that my freedoms to go to the range and shoot off my pistol and even my right to own my pistol can be stripped away in the name of “safety” “security” “what about the children!?” The same can go with people’s right to peaceful protest (need I remind everyone of the “Free Speech Zones”), your right to a lawyer (ironic, given what you said about your dad [and let’s not forget about those in Gitmo]), your right to privacy (goes without saying if you look around on this website) and everything in between. The only thing that keeps your rights from being washed away like a sand castle at high tide is the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. However, more and more I see the government blatantly ignoring those two pieces of old paper.
You argue against communism by posing the question “what would motivate everyone to work?” This is an old standing criticism of communism and it is one that mostly capitalists will raise. Granted, communism would fail if the economic policy remained such as it is in a capitalist nation in which the policy is to work for yourself. Rather than working to acquire wealth for yourself, in a communist state one would work to help pay for the things he needs.
Allow me to give an example in which I may seem a bit harsh, but hear me out. Schools, sports, and even businesses will push hard for a “team spirit.” Work well for your job and you’re a team player! There’s no “I” in team! Good for you! However, if you follow the chain you’ll find that this “team effort” rakes in the big profit for the person who owns the business and it is that one person who will reap the most reward. However, in a communist state, the “team” is not the employer but the nation because it is the nation you’ll be working for.
Hmm…maybe I didn’t quite express myself well with that last paragraph. Let me put it in another way.
You work to create a product and give that product to someone who needs it. When you need a product, you can go to the person you helped and he’ll help you. Some call it, tit-for-tat. The term I know it as is reciprocal altruism. Another argument you posed is in regarding those who don’t work. I was taking a political quiz and one of the statements it posed, which I strongly agreed with and which I believe is also one of the communistic ideals is “Those who are able to work and refuse the opportunity should not expect society’s support.” This is another point in reciprocal altruism in which cheaters (those who take and take and never give back) will quickly become outsiders.
Your argument against socialized medical care is one which I have already addressed in another diary entry I made: http://irregulartimes.com/diaries/?p=121
For the most part, I think I made my argument fairly well in that entry (albeit heatedly) however I feel the need to address your story about your cousin’s experience in Toronto with a story of my own.
My dad was a teacher for a good many years and took an active roll in his student’s education. He would let them grade themselves and would always have to talk them up because they were being too harsh on themselves. He took them out on fieldtrips all the time and for the most part they were doing really well. One of his students was having trouble with her work so he would stay after class and help her with anything she needed. One day she had to go to the hospital for a procedure and while she was there, the hospital gave her the wrong blood type and she died from it at the age of 16 or so.
Am I going to tout that story as a shining example of what can happen in privatized medical care? No. Hospitals fuck up. It’s sad, but it happens. It can happen in a socialized medical system (Canada) and it can happen in a privatized medical system (America).
Now, as for the quality, read that link I posted a few paragraphs ago for how to deal with the quality of socialized American medical care.
Lastly, you said that, in essence, one can not be pro-communism and a patriotic American at the same time. I would like to know why you say that? America has always been a place where people could practice their political ideals as well as their religious ideals in freedom. No where in the Constitution does it say that one has to be anticommunist to be a patriotic American. I don’t see that listed in the Bill of Rights either. That is the same old song that’s been sung by those who stand the most to lose from change. It is also a very nationalistic view to have.
You also go on to say that a communist government is “corruptible beyond belief.” Yes, it can be, but communism does not, by any means, have a corner on the corruption market. Capitalism has also proved to be heretofore unimaginably corruptible. Look at our very own capitalist government that we have right now.
-Hookers used to bribe politicians
-Illegal wiretaps
-The president announcing there are 700+ laws he can ignore if he wants
-The vice president leaks the name of an undercover operative out of spite
-Tax cuts for the wealthy
-Heavier taxes for the poor
-Tax cuts to corporations for outsourcing jobs to other countries
-Sub-standard living wages
-Wage slavery
-Lower pollution laws
-Torture
-Blending of church and state
-Now legal for religious groups receiving government funding to fire people for “not belonging to the right religion”
-War on false pretences
-Detaining citizens indefinitely without a trial or lawyer.
-Free Speech Zones
These are all things I just thought of off the top of my head. I know there are more, but I really don’t need to go into all of them. I’d be up all night listing them and I doubt many people would have the patience to read that long a list.
You tell Greg and myself to contemplate the situation a little bit. Speaking for myself, I have contemplated the situation a lot. I’ve sat and thought about it for years now. I’ve discussed it for years. I’ve weighed the pros and cons, the ups and the downs and I have come to see that not only is communism a better choice; but a more enlightened choice. Rather than work for the acquirement of wealth and status, work to better yourself and the rest of society. I am aware that the last sentence was little more than hopeful and wishful thinking on my part, but that is my view and that is a goal I would work to achieve.
On a personal note, I find it sad that in a nation of so many freedoms (however paper thin they really are); in this Land of the Free I feel more fear admitting that I have so many views that are the same as the views of Karl Marx than I do in admitting I’m an atheist. It’s easier for me to say “I don’t believe in your god†than it is for me to say “I think those commies have some pretty good ideas.â€
They call this land the Land of the Free? I don’t think we’ll ever be truly free until people can come out and say “I’m a Communist!†or “I’m a Socialist!†or even “I’m a Marxist!†as well as being able to come out and say “I’m gay!†or “I’m an atheist!†without fear of abuse. Don’t lecture me on liberties, Dan; not until people like me can voice their political opinions without looking over their shoulders for Big Brother.
~ Damen
May 20th, 2006 at 1:45 am
Comrades, comrades. Settle down, please.
Can we all just get along?
Except of course this Dan-Capitalist.
This is what true reactionary sounds like.
But.. We have ways!
Dan-Capitalist, Please report to boxcar #7867866897
to South Central Los Angelitos. The Progressive Land.
Comrade Damien is a real progressive material. We may have
use for him…. On Russian Front..However he may not stay an
atheist in his foxhole, ones the capitalists begin B52 raids.
Lovingly,
Comrade Stalin
P.S. Now as far as Tit for Tat. Where do I get some Tats?
May 22nd, 2006 at 8:20 pm
Sorry, I would have replied earlier, but alas I have been too busy in this capitalistic world. Again, so you guys don’t take this as a hate-post I am astounded that I am able to be having an intelligible conversation with a couple off guys who believe in communism. (Not so sure if you do or don’t Greg) To respond to your argument that I believed patriotism was a faith-like feeling. I did not mean to give off that impression. Instead I was saying that in order to care and be proud of America you have to agree with certain facets of America. Take for example the First Amendment, a person could not say that they disagree with freedom of speech and then turn around and say “I am a patriotic American.” This might be more for Damien though because you (Greg) seem a bit more moderate on the subject. Capitalism is one of those facets of America that you cannot question. Yes you can question the economic effects of privatizing everything, take for example the lack of regulation of the Stock Market pre-Great Depression. However, you cannot say that America should no longer be capitalistic because that free economic system goes hand-in-hand with that American liberty. I agree with you that we should not worship those in politics like Gods or even worship our country because in the end we have done some very questionable things (e.g slavery, the Phillippines). But we should respect those in power, because they were put in place by the American people. This election, Bush won by a powerful mandate of over 3 million voters. That doesn’t mean that we have to agree with everything he does, because even I sure as hell don’t. But we should not look at him as if he’s some sort of evil dictator, we must remember that he was voted in. Ok, now onto your arguments Damien, which were long by the way. You argue for an economic system where the workers run the system. If everyone is simply trying to work for what they need, why does anyone ever really need to improve? Also if someone is not very good at their job will they get fired? Because it seems to me that people will do nothing but work. Does everyone lead? How is anything decided on? Because as you know not everyone thinks alike. Who in the end decides, is it by popular vote among the workers? I’ll tell you if that is the way it works then absolutely NOTHING will ever get done. A board that runs a company take an immensely long time to decide on anything and to get anything done and that is with only about 12-20 board members. Can you imagine how long that system will take when EVERY single person must be allowed to voice their opinion. In the end the system is simply not viable, it just doesn’t work, which is exactly why China has finally turned to capitalism. To respond to what you said about the corruption of our own government, I agree with you that yes there are many examples of corruption in our government. However, look at the examples of corruption in China or Russia, which you say are different versions of communism, called Maoism and Stalinism, but they are simply examples of what happens when a country attempts to put communism in place. Stalin killed millions of his own people and completely rewrote Russian history in order to brainwash the public. In China as Greg discussed, Mao’s actions led to the starvation and death of many more millions. You can’t shrug off those examples as “not communism.” They are communism in the real-world. Idealistically communism sounds good but in the real-world it just doesn’t work. Finally, the statements “I am an atheist” and “I am a communist” are two COMPLETELY different statements. In the law of the land it is specifically stated that one has the freedom to believe in any faith he/she wishes. However, when one believes in communism he completely disagrees with the economic system and way of life that America believes in. I think I threw you guys off when I gave the analogy of the Catholic. I am in no way characterizing these as faith-principles. I am stating that it is different to state a belief or way of life that doesn’t effect you, however, if you spout a belief that is in complete contrast with the way everyone else lives and also neccesitates a change in the way everone else lives you must expect a more harsh response. I am sorry that this is not better formatted but I did not feel like splitting it up, I was rambling anyway. I look forward to your guys’ responses.
May 23rd, 2006 at 10:27 pm
Dan,
First off I just want to point out that there is no “I” in my name.
Now I want to also state, for the record, that I am an adamant supporter of the first amendment. I’m so strongly in support of the first amendment that I will even let the Ku Klux Klan and Neo-Nazis spew their deluded rhetoric until they’re blue in their faces. I think the first amendment is that important and it also gives me the freedom to tell them when I think they’re full of shit.
You also say that you can’t be a patriotic American without accepting capitalism and again I ask where that is written in the constitution. Yes, America has a capitalist economic system but economic systems charge all the time, as do system of governments. It was a change in economics and government that kept America from becoming another United Kingdom. I would dare to say that change goes more to the heart of the American way of life than capitalism. I would go so far as to say it is un-American to tell another what they can and can not question.
Yes, he was put in power by the American people, but great minds have also advised to question the government. Thomas Jefferson once said “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.”
So was Hitler.
In order to better facilitate everyone getting the things they need, there will always be a drive to improve one’s self. I’d rather put some time in to invent a better way of making/harvesting (insert product here) so to make it easier on the population as a whole rather than just working my ass off using the same old method.
No, they’ll be moved to a job they are more qualified for. And…you mean like working 40 hours a week in your full time job and then going to your part time job? Or do you mean like taking a room mate and splitting the bills so you don’t end up on the street and still have enough left over to maybe eat?
I can’t really help but think you’re confusing anarchy with communism here.
You really might want to rethink touting China as an example of capitalism. You know, with their practices of wage slavery, increasing unemployment to motivate the workers and such. All that is very un-communistic.
And what’s so wrong with having the workers voice their opinions? It wouldn’t be too hard to pass around a clipboard with the dilemma written on it and two boxes with “Yes” and “No” for you to fill in. Run it through a machine and tally the votes. What’s so hard about that?
I could debate you on the point that Maoism and Stalinism are the same as communism. By this logic I could say that what’s happening in the USA (poverty, illiteracy , pollution, no universal medical care, etc) are simply what happens when a government tries to implement capitalism.
Sorta like sending thousands of Americans off to die in an unjust war, sending others off to prisons out of country to be tortured with impunity and then revising history so that it goes from “All military actions are over” to “All major military actions are over”?
What else can I say but, Mao was a nut. Same with Stalin and Bush. People are starving here in the USA too. People are starving all across the globe. Wouldn’t you like to help them? Wouldn’t you like to keep those poor people from starving? Or would you want to be paid for your efforts and if they can’t pay let them starve?
Now this part I’m going to go off topic for a second in order to rant about something that’s been irritating the hell out of me.
You say, Dan, that I can’t say that these are examples of perverted communism. But I’ve heard christian brutality shrugged off (witch hunts, genocide, Inquisition, holy wars) as being done by “not true christians” and that bugs the hell out of me. How can brutality done on such a massive scale be done all by “not true christians”? Eventually somewhere you’re gonna find a “true christian” with a torch in their hands or at the wheel of The Rack. I might not be able to shrug off these examples of a massively perverted view of communism, but by that logic these people who say that the history of christian murder was done by “not true christians” can’t shrug off the fact that yes, these were done in the name of christianity and yes, it was done by “true christians” who ended up perverting the bible’s teachings just like Stalin and Mao perverted Marx’s teachings.
This little rant was brought to you by Pissed Gun-Nuts Inc and has no bearing on the conversation at hand. We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.
It could work but you also have to take into account global politics and the position of those in government. The strongest nation in the world (the USA) has a major paranoia of communistic ideals. Because of that, we enact an embargo on Cuba and will give a nation anything they want so long as they say “we’re against the commies.” When you have the strongest nation against your form of economy and works against it in every way it can, then no matter what form of economy it is, your nation will fail. Also, you have to remember that if those in government (Stalin and Mao) would treat their workers fairly then communism would work. They were dictators, they were heavy handed, and they screwed themselves over as much or more than the USA ever did. This does not mean that communism can’t work, it can when it’s left alone.
No they’re not. They’re two statements that say different things but they both garner the same reaction. Both are most often met with public scorn and ridicule and therefore those who think that way are often pressured into keeping quiet.
In the law of the land you are talking about, in this case the Ninth Amendment (The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people) protects my right to claim a governmental and economic system that is not in line with the established government or economy and the First Amendment (Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances) protects my right to voice those opinions and views should I so choose.
The law of the land grants me the rights to express my views. However, social pressure and fear of being a total outcast and ridiculed can be an effective incentive to keeping silent.
The only problem is, it does effect me. It effects how I make my money, it effects whether or not I’ll get housing should I need it, it effects whether or not I’ll get medical care should I need it. It does effect me. I happen to think that communism is a better way of doing things. I know to expect a harsh response, but no great change ever came easily.
We all ramble from time to time. I do it myself. But you have my response but I now think I should take the time to state a couple things about myself.
I am not, amazingly, a communist. I find communistic ideals to be in many ways a better system of government but I do not subscribe totally to that way of thinking.
The only political label I give myself is Democratic Socialist. I like many of the communistic ideals but I, personally, do not feel it is the best for of government. Nor do I think that capitalism is inherently evil.
I think that there are a few things that should be provided by the government. In this manner, I am talking about the basic needs of life. Medical care, education, and housing for those who need it. Other things that I feel should be provided for and/or guaranteed by the government are power, water, sanitation, and a living wage. Also, having tax included in the listed price would be nice. Those are my biggest problems with total capitalism, that the things that are most needed to live you have to pay for. Anything beyond those things should be something you’d have to pay for.
I know these views are in contrast to what I have been saying previously. I am merely debating the merits of communism, though, again, I do not feel that communism is the best form of government or economy.
~Damen
May 25th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
Damen,
When I talk to Communists, they usually do a good job of articulating the drawbacks of the present system. But when it comes time to lay out a plan for how to change that, they don’t have much to say.
One thing I ask them is, are you advocating a violent overthrow of the government? If most people would support that, why can’t they just vote the government out of power? What are you trying to do, exactly?
Frankly, I don’t think we need another revolution because we’ve already had one. At least in theory, the U.S. government is already a revolutionary government. If the majority of the people wanted socialism, we would have it up and running within a decade–without violence.
I think the problem lies in the fact that we’re not having a realistic discussion about “socialism.”
People were shocked that the federal government had no capacity to deal with Hurricane Katrina, but at the same time generally accepted propaganda that talked about destroying the federal government–”drowning it in a bathtub.”
People don’t generally think Americans should be allowed to starve. But they’re against “government handouts.”
They think hospitals should save people’s lives even if they can’t afford to pay for it. But they’re against “socialized medicine.”
Americans tend to believe in a myth of radical independence–that the wealth an individual has is his or hers and his or hers alone. That’s not really true. Without things like federal monetary policy, police, and the legal system, nobody would have any wealth. It’s not like we’re a nation of homesteaders growing our own food and defending ourselves from thieves–those days are long gone and were mostly a myth anyway.
Dan,
To have someone “shocked” to be having an intelligent conversation with you is mixed praise, at best.
Where did you get the idea that anyone who was interested in or discussed Communist ideas was incapable of rational thought? Sounds like you had a negative opinion about Communism to begin with.
My guess would be that you got that negative idea about people who “believe in Communism” (notice you’re using religious-type language again: like “believe in God”) from the unrealistic kind of talk that dominates political speech in this country. It’s more common to throw around insults–”Communist,” “Fascist,” “Isolationist,” “Liberal,” etc.–than it is to actually consider what someone else is saying.
May 28th, 2006 at 4:38 am
Greg,
Pardon my tardiness but it’s been a busy time for me lately.
Start by nationalizing the basic needs of life, such as power, water, sanitation, education, and medical care. Also a living minimum wage. That’s a start.
While a violent overthrow of the current government might have a romantic appeal to writers and film makers and such, I do not wish any bloodshed for anyone unless it is the very last resort.
My only desire is to create a system of government in which people are not left to fend for themselves. One which will take care of it’s citizens both socially and militarily. I do not feel that the system we have is adiquit.
Again, I am not advocating a violent revolution. And I think if citizens had an unbiased source of information on socialism they might vote to have it. However with the anticommunist attitudes that was the reason behind my creating this article, it is very difficult to sort fact from fiction and most people don’t want to take the time to research a different form of government, especially one which is borderline taboo in this culture.
How so?
Say sorry, I don’t recall that.
Ahh yes, the shouting “WE’RE BECOMING A WELFARE NATION!” that I have heard so much of. What’s so wrong with welfare? “It encourages people to be lazy! They’ll never work!” Which brings me back to something I said in an earlier comment “Those who are able to work and refuse the opportunity should not expect society’s support.”
That said, people thinking Americans shouldn’t be allowed to starve but are against government handouts…seems a little hypocritical to me.
Because they were always told it wouldn’t be the best quality. However I already made a post addressing that issue.
And that too seems a little hypocritical to me.
I won’t argue with you on that one. This nation was like that once many years ago, but those days are long over.
June 1st, 2006 at 5:50 pm
I don’t mean you and I aren’t having a realistic discussion about socialism. I mean that America in general isn’t having one. Americans talk about socialism in terms of “scares,” hysteria and extremist patriotism, not about what works or doesn’t work.
In 2001, it was the right wing strategist Grover Norquist who said “My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub.” Google it, you’ll find plenty.
June 5th, 2006 at 4:21 am
Extremeist patrotism is an interesting phraise, but I must admit I like the term “Nationalism” better. Save the term “patriot” for those who only want and do good for this country and not those who say they want good for the country and then destroy everything that made this country so great.
I just looked up that right wing putz and I must say, the idea of those guy turns my stomach. There are really people like this out there and they’re in the government?
Is this guy a joke? I hope he is.
June 6th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
Unfortunately, in common American usage, “patriotism” has become indistinguishable from “American nationalism.” If you ask the average American whether he or she is a nationalist, they’ll give you a blank stare. Ask if he or she is a patriot, and they will say yes. Ask what that means, and they’ll talk about things like pride, loyalty, and dedication to symbols far more often than they’ll mention things like critical thinking and dissent as civic responsibility. Patriotism means love of country, but it’s a love that’s manipulated and betrayed so often that we’ve got to turn a critical eye to it. Talking about “extremist patriotism,” “blind patriotism,” “knee-jerk patriotism,” etc. is one way of introducing an idea most Americans have never thought about–that love of country, like any loyalty, can go to extremes, or be manipulated by cynical propagandists.
And this guy Norquist is NOT a joke, unfortunately. It’s one of the bizarre ironies of neo-con ideology that they float propaganda about destroying the federal government at the same time that they enact policies like wars of aggression and the construction of a massive police state with unlimited spying powers. They usually only talk about one of these at a time, but take both together and do the math–a massive police state that protects private and corporate property, but eliminates safety nets for urban and rural poor.
As for the “Republican base” issues like scapegoating gays and Mexicans, in all fairness these neo-con ideologues mostly don’t care. They’re intellectuals. They’re not particularly racist or homophobic–stuff like tightening border security or an anti-gay legislation is just red meat they throw to the “values voters” during election years. The National Guard is going to accomplish exactly what the Minutemen did at the border with Mexico–sit there with binoculars and MAYBE cause a few people to try to find another way across. They know the support isn’t really there for amendments to the Constitution about things like gay marriage, the Ten Commandments in public buildings, flag burning, etc.
The Republican party is based on an alliance of:
1. elite neo-conservative ideologues who want to create a powerful security state without a social safety net, and
2. so-called “social conservatives” (i.e. racists, homophobes, and misogynists) that receive empty symbolic nods from the ideological elite.
The elite knows very well that if their children are gay, nobody will be rude to them at cocktail parties, and if they want to get married they can hire a lawyer to draw up exactly the kind of pre-nuptial agreement that always determines marriage contracts among the elite. They know that if their daughter gets pregnant, they can fly her overseas for an abortion even if Roe v. Wade goes down in the United States. They know very well that, even if it DOES somehow pass, racist, sexist, or homophobic legislation won’t affect THEM.
And where are the Democrats in all this? Licking their wounds, trying to get back into power, trying to imitate this screwy sham of a Republican game.
October 27th, 2006 at 9:59 am
Leggo ed imparo sul vostro luogo. grazie!
October 27th, 2006 at 1:31 pm
Dear Comrade Pornografia,may I commend you
on short post. It’s damn short…
What the hell does it mean in English. Please Clarify!
I case of refusal my KGB will make you listen to Ebonics Rap
24/7 so you can learn another language really fast and then…
Please report to boxcar #08797888809-99 for trip to capitalist yankee
night school for Linguistically Confused.
Yo mama, has nose rings and wears castanietes? SiiiiiiiT!
Lovingly Yours,
Comrade Stalin.
P.S. I think Chiapas just bought Capitalist Laptop?
Y
December 8th, 2006 at 5:43 am
Luogo interessante, buon disegno, lo gradisco, signore! =)
January 22nd, 2007 at 9:42 pm
The USA will never fall to communisim.Unless hte loberals have there way and totally destroy our constitution.Please move to another country to try your failed socialist policies.Please don’t ruin this country.
May 3rd, 2007 at 10:41 pm
It’s the pubs who have disregarded the Constitution and screwed the economy.
May 3rd, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Check again, Animist, all the traditional economic factors–unemployment etc.–look pretty good, unless you look at consumer confidence indicators like the housing market, which is collapsing. Or you figure that households need two incomes to survive. Or that people who work for Walmart need to apply for medicaid becasue they can’t afford basic health care. Or you figure the full employment is because of the war economy. Or you figure that the prosperity is a mirage because of the war debt–coming up on a trillion dollars pretty soon.
May 7th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Mmm, arguments from ignorance never cease to amuse me.
Failed socialist policies? With so much of Europe going socialist?
Nahh, I’m gonna stick around for a while.
Me? Socialists? No need, capitalist conservatives have already done a wonderful job of that.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
we should privatize everything. competition creates insurance of quality and quantity.
capitalism gives the chance to earn happiness
communism and socialism spread the misery equally.
adopt a russian, and take them to a farmers market, look at the look they have on their faces, then tell me capitalism is a bad way to format a nation
ps, nowhere in the constitution does it say anyone has the write to vote for the president. lol, look it up, amazing
August 7th, 2007 at 5:26 am
Ooo, I just love republican capitalist propaganda. It always makes me laugh.
Yeah, adopt a Russian, take them to a farmers market and see them light up at the prospect of eating. You know, unless I’m mistaken, that example is faulty. Russia’s capitalist now.
Also, you’re right about one thing; no one in America has a write to vote. And you’re correct in stating that it’s not in the Constitution. We do, however, have the right to vote and it’s the Bill of Rights that gives us this right. See, there’s more to the Bill of Rights (you know, that pesky old 200+ year old legal document that’s still in effect) than the first Ten Amendments.
That’s “Amendments” not “Commandments” by the way.
Like, for example, the 15th Amendment.
http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
Oh, oh! Here it is again!
The 19th Amendment.
I just love those rights, don’t you?