Irregular Times Diaries: Unfit Discussion
In a time of the spring, old paths are obscured and new growth begins.
Irregular Times Diaries: Unfit DiscussionIn a time of the spring, old paths are obscured and new growth begins.
Unity 08 is an organization that promises to overcome the nasty tone of partisan bickering in Washington D.C. by holding online elections to annoint a presidential candidate and vice-presidential candidate. Today, Unity 08 proved itself incapable of both overcoming the nasty tone of political bickering and of maintaining the most basic standards of online security.
Without realizing that its online chat was already visible to the public, Unity 08 staff members started insulting a grassroots member of Unity 08, calling that member a “jackass”, a “menace”, and a “M______ F_______”. Hint to the innocent: Unity 08 staff was calling that grassroots activist a mother fucker.
That grassroots member of Unity 08 was mighty offended that the staff of Unity 08 was insulting him in this way, and thought that other Unity 08 members would want to know the extreme disrespect that Unity 08 staff has for the grassroots activists it claims to speak for. So, that member of Unity 08 posted the transcript of the insults from the Unity 08 staff on the group’s discussion board. How did the Unity 08 staff respond? They deleted the transcript, on the web site, and on the discussion board too.
Then, Unity 08 staff member Shane Kinkennon tried to convince everyone that when he referred to the grassroots Unity 08 activist as a “jackass”, what he really meant to say is that the activist was “appreciated.” That’s what political insiders like the people who control Unity 08 call “spin”.
Why did the Unity 08 staff attack this grassroots member of their own organization? Because that member dared to ask questions about what appears to be some very unusual financial shenanigans going on over at Unity 08.
Insulting grassroots activists. Censoring political expression. Deleting embarassing information to cover up misbehavior. Running sloppy, botched online political operations. Crass political spin.
Why would anyone trust Unity 08 with a presidential election?
(243 votes, average: 3.26 out of 5)
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January 29th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Wonder when the mainstream press is going to catch wind of all this.
News flash to press people: The next time you are going to write an article about something, run it through a search engine and spend a good hour looking over what that engine spits out.
Why the press still supports these guys speaks volumes.
January 29th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Volumes of laziness.
January 29th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Well, JClifford, it was “wretched,” not “menace.”
And actually, I wasn’t mighty offended. I thought it was frickin’ hilarious, because it made clear, despite the protestation that it was all “jokester” fun, that the staff of Unity08 cannot handle factual questions. People don’t “joke” that someone is a “jackass” and a “wretched M____ F____”, because that’s not a joke — it’s just not funny.
This is funny: Knock knock? Who’s there? Little old lady. Little old lady who? I didn’t know you could yodel!
“Wretched M____ F____” is just plain, boring and unimaginative.
No, it wasn’t a joke. It was a venting. I can handle it on a personal basis; I’m not quivering in a corner from the pain, the pain! No, I just think it shows how disdainful this self-described “grassroots organization” actually is toward little people who defy them. Don’t we know? We’re supposed to lick their sphincters and cheer! We’re not supposed to be the sort of wretched M___ F___s who ask questions.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:32 am
If you guys are going to insist on taking this Unity08 bunch seriously, you are going to miss all the fun and circuses that one of the commenters over there alluded to when he said he thought everyone had tacitly agreed to “suspend disbelief”, a phrase commonly used to describe the audience reaction to theater. For instance during the “naughty or nice” mock election, did anyone else test the system by trying to see how many times they could vote? Anyone who is initiated into the “vote early and often” tradition can really get into this group. Really, you guys should lighten up, stop and smell the flowers. Oh, never mind, you have your own ring in the circus.
January 30th, 2007 at 6:46 am
Yeah, this “circus” just got another fawning review piece — on ABC News.
And they’re in talks now with Michael Bloomberg and Chuck Hagel. Moneybags, moneybags, moneybags.
I agree they’re hilariously funny, Anonymous, but sometimes hilariously funny people and movements wind up in office — and then it ain’t so funny any more.
January 30th, 2007 at 6:48 am
Kind of funny how the Unity 08 people are only in talks to support Republican presidential candidates.
What an obvious sham.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:19 am
And the ABC piece had a picture of Clay Aiken next to it–another belly laugh for me while you guys are frowning like old aunts. Someone is really taking Unity08 ’seriously’ if they place it in the same genre as American Idol.
If Unity08 represents an attempt to get the Republican party away from the right wing religious nutcases, maybe it’s a Good Thing–same as the Barry Goldwater nostalgia that’s going around–except they probably see the opportunity to damage the Democratic party at the same time.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
When an organization is as thoroughly dishonest as Unity08 has been, it’s not going to be a good source of political reform, no matter what kind of high falutin’ rhetoric it uses.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Unfortunately, there are some very silly people indeed who manage to get themselves into power and royally mess things up.
I’ve heard “Lighten up, nobody’s going to take him seriously” about some fantastically absurd candidates who, for whatever reason, ended up winning.
Being an utter clown does not preclude a successful bid for the presidency.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Are you thinking of, oh, Smorge Lubbleyou Tush? Baydolh Smitler? Clenito Bussolini?
All of these thoroughly hypothetical cases involve clowns who got into office and caused a lot of damage. Hypothetically.
January 31st, 2007 at 11:14 am
What Unity08 did is not that different from the way Irregulartimes insulted me on a different thread when I questioned using the word “girls” to describe “women”. I asked a legitimate question, but I was answered with insults and a pornographic picture. Why such extreme disrespect, especially towards someone who should be in the same political camp? Why did such a simple and obvious question trigger so much anger?
January 31st, 2007 at 11:57 am
The anger, and the insults, were all yours, in your interpretation of others around you, until you demanded an honest explanation for why you were not being responded to. Then, after you asked, I told you honestly.
And then I stopped talking to you, because I’m not interested in that variety of personal psychodrama played out with someone who doesn’t name themselves and who I do not know at all. It is a time and energy sink. I prefer to spend my time engaged in personal psychodrama with people I actually know.
Of course Unity08 thinks I’m a jackass and a mother fucker. Because I am a jackass, you know. The difference between your “confrontation” of me and my questioning of Unity08 is that you don’t document your factual claims. You have, repeatedly made assumptions that turn out to be wrong.
Buh-bye.
January 31st, 2007 at 3:38 pm
What proof do you have that you are a jackass? I suppose you expect me to believe that without documentation.
And what on earth is a “personal psychodrama”? As far as I can tell, it’s just your usual standard excuse for going off-subject. So you won’t have to discuss your little faux pas in refering to women as “girls”.
Just as U08 “accidently” left the mike open and said some distracting things so everyone would forget to ask all those pesky questions about financial transparency.
In all fairness I really respect Kinkennon personally for apologizing for the “silliness,” even if I can’t respect the kind of politics that attempts to fight a “rear-guard action” against fair wages.
I’m sure U08 appreciates you commenting on their site about as much as you say you appreciate my comments here. They have already gotten your two highly rated threads off their home page by substituting “most recent” software in the “most popular” discussion thread listing. It’s just a matter of time before they think of a “software upgrade” switcheroo that will take your comments off their site entirely.
Wear the ‘wrenched jackass motherfucker’ label if you want. I am not a ‘girl’.
January 31st, 2007 at 6:07 pm
You persist in spreading falsehood. I do not say things about Unity08 that are not true. I extensively document what I say. You say things about me that are not true, and you do not document what you say. That is the difference between what I do regarding Unity08 and what you do regarding me.
I never called you a “girl,” and as I’ve said multiple times before, I never call women “girls” for a number of reasons. This is exactly what I am talking about. You are not in touch with facts. This is why I try not to talk to you.
Daniel Fox is the person who called women “girls.” You have a problem with Daniel Fox, talk to him. Oh, right, he already responded to you and agreed with you, didn’t he?
No, it’s your constant swerving of policy issues into odd questions about individual personalities (fueled by false accusations about who I am and what I do) that bugs the living crap out of me. That’s not a problem I have with women. That’s a problem I have with YOU.
I have no interest in further discussions with you, since they serve no reality-based purpose.
January 31st, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Jackomo fe nan e!
January 31st, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Takin bout hey now, hey now. Iko! Iko!
Who gets the green flag, and who the red?
January 31st, 2007 at 9:09 pm
I never said you called me a girl.
You are not in touch with facts.
Yes, you have made it clear you do not use this language yourself. I believe you. Creepy, you said, disrepectful. Do you need a link for that? Those were your exact words. But you defend the use of this language here:
http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2007/01/16/interview-daniel-fox-skreened-tell-me-about-ethics/#comment-259163
In this paricular case, you also convinced Mr. Fox to use this type of language:
http://skreened.com/products.php
You are never afraid to call anyone on hate speech, or on disrespectful language based on race or ethnicity, but when it comes to gender and taking women seriously, you sure chickened out on this one.
Have a nice day. (That’s public relationsese, feel free to decode it.)
January 31st, 2007 at 9:49 pm
that all depends on who gets the first penalty! Iko! Iko! One day!
February 1st, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Unity08. Unity around what? Unity for what?
A new political party that exists only for the 2008 presidential campaign season?
Mighty suspicious. But then, I suppose that the Unity08 staff would just call me a jackass for daring to ask questions about their D.C. insider PR lobbyist Republican connections.
February 1st, 2007 at 7:11 pm
[…] with Republicans politicians to hijack the organization leaks out. Recently, transcripts of Unity08 staff members were caught accidentally releasing an online conversation attacking a grassroots member of Unity08 in […]
February 13th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
Alright, where do I begin? How about here: It seems a little disingenuous to me that you’ve decided to convict the people of Unity08 on charges that I have yet to see concrete evidence for when far-left bloggers like yourself use the MF term to describe anyone who disagrees with you on a daily basis. This post will probably get deleted, but it’s time someone stood up to you people. You clearly have no rational thinking skills because you form opinions in your mind about issues and refuse to hear the other side of the arguement. With extremists like you speaking for the left, it’s no wonder that the leading presidential candidates in the Democratic Party are staying the hell away from you. I hope one day, you can learn to be a rational thinker, but until that day, you should hang your head in shame.
February 14th, 2007 at 10:15 am
You are a pigheaded asshole. Unity08 is trying to do something good, but you are such an ass that you only want to mess it up. You can’t see anything good, you can only see the bad, in everything. People like you make this world miserable. I am sure that everyone at Unity08 is sick of you and your negative retoric.
February 14th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
OK Hero and Samurai, you are “rational” people.
What’s the “other side of the arguement (sic)?”
Jim’s questions for Unity ‘08 are rational. They are based on comparisons of Unity ’08’s rhetoric and various sources of information about Unity ‘08 that do indeed appear to contradict it in some rather striking ways.
Sure, there’s some rhetoric implicit in his questions, but there are mountains of data to support it. He’s also proven himself willing to acknowledge when there is a rational explanation for an apparent inconsistency.
Jim spent months BEGGING Unity ‘08 for the other side to the argument.
Curious indeed that it’s the people who do careful research and demand an explanation when publically available information appears to run contrary to a politicial organization’s rhetoric that “make this world miserable.” I suggest one could make a stronger case that those who come by and call someone a “pighead asshole” without so much as referencing their painstaking research bear more responsibility for the dysfunction of our political system.
No concrete evidence for Jim’s charges? Don’t be absurd. Every one of his questions is based on carefully documented, publically available information. Point to a single one that isn’t, if you want to argue this out rationally.
Or could it be that you’re not interested in a rational argument, but would rather defend Unity ‘08 and their dedication to return civility to American politics by calling people “pighead assholes?”
February 14th, 2007 at 11:52 pm
A little quick to judge, aren’t we, Ralph? The other side of the arguement is that today, there is too much hatred and distrust in American politics. Yes, Hero let his temper get the best of him, but unless you’ve never, not even once in your life, lost your temper and let off steam at someone, I suggest that you put the stone back on the ground where you found it. But I digress. Today, politicians on both sides of the aisle spend so much time demonizing each other that nothing gets done on Capitol Hill. What this country needs, now more than ever, is cooperation. Unity08 is out to prove that a Republican and a Democrat can not only run together, but they can also put aside their differences for the common good.
Now, what I find “absurd” is that you claim that there’s “mountains of data” to support Jim’s accusations, and yet you folks never bothered to ask anyone at Unity08 if there was any truth to those accusations before making yourselves judge and jury on this issue. I’m also inclined to doubt the credibility of Jim and his “sources” due to the fact that none of this has been reported by the MSM(mainstream media). My mom always taught me that when you open up a book, any book, that the first thing you have to do is flip to the back cover and read the author’s bio in order to find out if the author has a hidden agenda in writing the book. Seeing as how this is obviously a website run by people on the far left who have nothing better to do than post daily rants on how much they hate Republicans and even moderate Democrats leads me to believe that you people do, in fact, have an agenda: to keep the political status quo and destroy anyone who threatens it.
My advice to you and Jim would be to seek first to understand, then to be understood. I’m not asking you to change your political beliefs. All I’m asking is that you go out, befriend some people who might potentially disagree with you, get some insight into how they feel, and be prepared to accept the possibility that you might be wrong. I think you’ll find that you’ll be able to live a much happier life if you accept that there are more than two sides to every arguement, and that one side isn’t always right. So, good night, and good luck.
February 15th, 2007 at 7:04 am
Please don’t be so sloppy, “Samurai.” In most cases, it was wholly unnecessary to ask. Unity08’s IRS disclosures, the PACER database of federal lawsuits, and the record of Unity08’s own statements provided the necessary information. Besides, I have been “bothering to ask anyone at Unity08″ for months now. They wouldn’t answer my questions, which is why I went to the original source data. It was only when I dug up that original source data and began widely sharing its contents that Unity08 started paying attention.
If you’d been following the thread of the data and of my questions, you’d know that. I suggest you give it a close read.
February 15th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
“There is too much hatred and distrust in American politics” is in no way a counter-argument to Jim’s questions. It’s a normative judgement from someone calling me too quick to judge, and doesn’t relate to facts at all.
You’re arguing that Jim’s evidence isn’t credible (even though you clearly haven’t checked it), based not on evidence but on his political orientation. Your assumption is that you can conclude that his data is inaccurate based on the fact that he is a liberal, and liberals have a “hidden agenda.”
That’s not proof, it’s an empty accusation based on nothing but ideology. Is that really what we need more of in politics? If you want to prove him wrong, prove him wrong. Follow his links, check his data, and refute it if you can. Otherwise you’re just slinging mud.
Another thing you could do is read Jim’s series of questions for Unity ‘08 and then read Doug Bailey’s blog post yesterday–He doesn’t name Jim specifically but he implicitly admits that a number of Jim’s questions are valid. For instance, they haven’t followed the terms of their own “Clean Money Pledge.” And gee, wasn’t there a big box on the “Clean Money Pledge” on their front page until recently?
Interesting that none of this has been reported in the MSM, isn’t it?
February 16th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
First of all, did you ever see the word “liberal” used in any of my posts? I have no problem with average, everyday liberals who favor progress for the betterment of society. I’ve had many interesting conversations with liberals about ways we can make this country a better place. Inevitably, we think differently on certain issues, but we usually have a nice, clean dialogue.
The term I used was “far-left.” And what I mean when I call someone far-left is someone who is not only on the left side of the political spectrum, but takes the dogma of the left side so seriously and so religiously that when someone presents a different viewpoint, they either don’t listen or they get angry and resort to mudslinging. Now, look at the far-right. They obviously have different viewpoints and different means of expressing them, but other than that, they are exactly the same as the far-left when it comes to hearing differing opinions, and if this were a far-right blog that was attacking Unity08, I would be saying the exact same thing.
My point with this first half of the rant is that you (Ralph and Jim) can hide behind the label “liberal” all you want, but a real liberal wouldn’t waste time venting on blogs. A real liberal would go out, identify problems in society, and work to fix them.
Now for the second half: I don’t know what happened on that chat, but frankly, even if what you are saying is true, who cares!? I could care less if Howard Dean calls someone in his own party a MF. It’s very curious that you haven’t been focusing on the real issues that Unity08 is concerned about and, instead, are focusing your attention on how funds are raised and little soundbytes of what people say. Not a day goes by when the far-left screams about the importance of affirmative action or the far-right demands that flag-burning be outlawed. Why can’t we talk about something important for a change? Why can’t we talk about US foreign policy or balancing the budget or making politicians accountable or immigration reform or even veterans’ benefits!? When you guys are ready to discuss real issues and hear different points of view, go to the Unity08 website and post your thoughts on what’s wrong with the world. I’ll be waiting.
February 16th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Whether you use the term “far-left” or “liberal,” you’re still making judgments on the basis of ideology instead of facts.
I never directed you to a chat, I directed you to a blog post, and to Jim’s questions that preceded it. You didn’t follow it up.
Why not? Perhaps because, as you say, “Who cares?” Clearly not you. Evidence be damned.
If you followed up on the information, you would find that Jim’s questions are oriented toward things that Unity 08 itself says matter in American politics–financial transparency in presidential campaigns, limiting the influence of lobbyists in Washington, making political organizations accountable, empowering the grassroots, etc.
Maybe those things don’t matter to YOU, but Unity ‘08 SAYS it matters to them. And yet, as Jim has painstakingly demonstrated (yes, I know you don’t care), many of their founders are registered lobbyists, they have not effectively engaged the grassroots, they have an astronomical rate of error in their financial records, they have sued the FEC, and they have yet to live up to their own “Clean Money Pledge.”
I could go on, but Jim already has. But what’s the point, right? As you say, “Who cares?”
February 16th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
I was referring to the chat that Jim was referring to. And yes, who doesn’t make judgements based on ideology without years and years of experience and learning? Do you honestly think that the far-left does not? If you do, then name me one time, just one time, that the far-left, as a whole, gave the president(who I sometimes have my differences with) or the Republicans in general credit for anything, and I will take that accusation back.
Through this exchange, I’ve come to realize that the reason you and Jim have chosen to get fixated on little shortcomings(some of which I question the validity of) is not because you care about “political accountability” but because you know that if you try to engage Unity08 members in a dialogue about issues, you won’t last five minutes. We haven’t discussed one important national issue in this whole conversation. Again, see us when you are ready.
February 16th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Well then, I guess civility in political discourse, and the influence of money and lobbyists on politics aren’t issues.
I guess the fact that so many of Unity ’08’s founders are lobbyists isn’t an issue.
I guess Unity ’08’s failure to meet its own “Clean Money Pledge” isn’t an issue.
I guess Unity ‘08 calling a critic a “jackass” isn’t an issue.
Funny, Unity ‘08 says those are issues. In fact, those are the only issues it has so far expressed an opinion on.
Iraq is an issue. What is Unity ’08’s position?
Environmentalism is an issue. What is Unity ’08’s position?
Global trade is an issue. What is Unity ’08’s position?
Immigration is an issue. What is Unity ’08’s position?
Abortion is an issue. What is Unity ’08’s position?
“Why can’t we talk about US foreign policy or balancing the budget or making politicians accountable or immigration reform or even veterans’ benefits?”
Good question. What is Unity ’08’s position?
By all means, let’s discuss Unity ’08’s position on all those issues–When they tell us where they stand?
February 19th, 2007 at 5:57 am
Little shortcomings?????
Broken promises? Hypocrisy? Secret coordination with special interest organizations that the Unity08 leadership won’t tell the Unity08 membership about? Lobbyists, PR pros, millionaire finance elites, and insider Washington D.C. power brokers running a fake grassroots organization behind the scenes are not little shortcomings!
Now, Unity08 has said that it would be willing to promote a Republican/independent ticket, with a single Democrat relegated to a Cabinet post. That’s no Unity Ticket! It’s a sham. The whole Unity08 thing is a big sham.