Irregular Times Diaries: Unfit Discussion
In a time of the spring, old paths are obscured and new growth begins.
Irregular Times Diaries: Unfit DiscussionIn a time of the spring, old paths are obscured and new growth begins.
Christians love to hear stories about how prayer affects people’s lives. Let me indulge them with this article, about an eleven year-old girl in Wisconsin, and her parents, and the power that prayer had in their lives.
It killed the girl.
Madeline Neumann grew increasingly ill over the space of a month, but her parents refused to take her to see a medical doctor, even after other family members begged them to do so.
To the end, even when Madeline Neumann had entered a coma, her parents insisted that the best thing to do was just to pray that God would intercede with his supernatural magical powers, and cure the girl. An ambulance was only sent to the house when the Madeline Neumann’s aunt made a telephone call without the parents’ permission. By the time the ambulance arrived, however, it was too late. Madeline Neumann was dead.
The death of their daughter was a powerful, concrete demonstration that prayer has no power. Sadly, Madeline Neumann’s parents don’t seem to have learned the lesson of the loss. The mother declares that “Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time.”
Strength? I don’t see any strength in these parents. I see criminal negligence. Their faith in the magical powers of God is not giving them strength. That faith sent their daughter to her death.
The parents also say that “We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do.” Really? These people didn’t know how to drive their daughter to a doctor’s office when she was feeling sick for weeks on end? They didn’t know how to call an ambulance when their daughter went into a coma? Nonsense. Madeline Neumann’s parents knew how to better for their daughter, but they chose to follow weird supernatural beliefs instead.
Apparently, this couple has other children beside Madeline. Let’s hope that those children don’t become sick until they are able to leave home and learn some more sense than what they’ve been taught at home.
(87 votes, average: 2.98 out of 5)
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March 28th, 2008 at 8:07 am
Standard responses usually include:
“they didn’t pray hard enough.”
“their faith wasn’t strong enough.”
“It was God’s will, he wanted to take her home.”
I’m generally confounded by the very nature of prayer. If indeed God has a will, what makes people think they can convince him / her otherwise? Does God ever do anything other than his will? So God is like - “Hmm.. this has been my plan all along, yet some mortals would like me to do something different. Maybe they’re right and I’m wrong. I know I’m omnicient and all that, but maybe these folks can see something that I can’t. OK, I’ll go against my original plan and do what these Christians / Muslims / Jews / whatever want me to. I mean they are asking me sooo nicely.
And what if two equally reverent groups are praying for exactly the opposite things? (i.e. each team wants to win the superbowl, or each ethnic group wants their own piece of Gaza)
Does God then choose the group he likes best to side with?
Do you really think your prayers are strong enough to make God’s will bend to yours??
March 28th, 2008 at 10:07 am
They probably have the same insurance plan I’ve got. I sure wouldn’t be able to afford any trip to any emergency room. If I got that sick my only options would be to pray or not to pray.
March 28th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Would you refuse to take your daughter to a hospital, or refuse even to call a doctor’s office, as she slipped into a coma?
March 28th, 2008 at 11:44 am
My neighbor did slip into a coma last year and was able to knock on my door a few minutes before it happened. By the time the ambulance arrived he was not able to give them his name and I had to get it off the mailbox. When he got out of intensive care several months later, he was so deeply in debt he could no longer pay his rent, and his sister’s family took him in. That is SO not going to be me.
I don’t have a daughter jClifford, but I am one. If I slip into a coma, you can pray for me.
March 28th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
There is a Sufi saying:
“Trust God, but tie your camel.”
Going to the doctor, taking vitamins, eating right, doing your part, this is tying your camel.
Totally phucked up to let their daughter die.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Indeed it was. Glad to see you here, dropSoul.
March 29th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
The Genius of Al Gore
http://www.gargaro.com/algore.html
March 29th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
You Liberal Socialists are pathetic and it shows How much you know about both prayer and people, Which is zero,about as much as you know about how the government should be run, the reason why you are a liberal in the first place. Most people who believe in prayer believe in modern medicine. Luke was a Doctor who both wrote the Book of Acts and Lukes Gospel.The extreme thinking of these people are not How normal Christians think, the so called standard responces you have submitted are as Bogus as Global warming and that is pretty Bogus……
March 29th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
No, not the physician Luke. Nobody knows for sure of course, but they think it was a different Luke.
Why are people suddenly freaking out about “the socialists”? Have they lost their Ameros?
Whatever happened to the real socialists? There used to be a few of them around opposing the Vietnam war, and helping people apply for conscientious objector status, but I haven’t heard of them lately. The professors used to say about them “they’re beautiful people but they couldn’t run a government.” I sure do hope they’re all right.
But as far as the Irregular view of religion, I’ve totally given up on the writers here. They don’t have any religious background themselves to have any kind of insight about religion. My theory of where they get their ideas about religion is they probably ran into some religious whackos on campus back when they were students, because those are the people who recruit on college campuses.
March 30th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Sorry Illinois,
“They don’t have any religious background themselves to have any kind of insight about religion.”
I grew up in a religious household. My family went to church regularly. So much for your assumptions about contributors. Got any other insights about what we have and have not experienced? Maybe you should pray for an open mind.
And Anonymous, could you offer me a better explanation about how prayer changes God’s mind?
March 30th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Sorry Illinois,
“They don’t have any religious background themselves to have any kind of insight about religion.”
I grew up in a religious household. My family went to church regularly. I know the bible much better than the average Christian. So much for your assumptions about contributors. Got any other insights about what we have and have not experienced? Maybe you should pray for an open mind.
And Anonymous, could you offer us a better explanation about how prayer can change God’s mind?
March 30th, 2008 at 8:27 am
No sorry,Because I will not give you another excuse to run christianity into the ground because of your hatred.it really does not matter, Again the extreme of these two folks are not the Norm of a majority of christians…
March 30th, 2008 at 8:28 am
You can read some qoutes here.
http://www.gargaro.com/algore.html
March 30th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Run Christianity into the ground?.. hmmm seems the only ones capable of that are Christians themselves.
When you actually have some ideas to share, speak up.
March 30th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Let’s see, How did I know you would say such an idiotic thing? Hmmmm? Oh, I have “Ideas to share”,I have submitted them on the other liberal/socialist/ communists America hating rag sites.(You don’t like that term do ya?) You Have said absolutely nothing here and anything I say,I will be casting pearls to the swine, of course, you being the swine….( Love it or leave it.)
March 30th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
The Genius of Al, Global warming, Gore.
http://www.gargaro.com/algore.html
March 30th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Global warming is Bogus
March 30th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Do you think Jesus is proud of you for calling people swine? Do you think your anger will lead any of us closer to God?
You seem to be very afraid of viewpoints that differ with your own. What are you so scared of? And why are you so afraid of using a name other than Anonymous?
April 5th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Yeah, when they remain Anonymous, there’s some thing wrong. They’d be this way no matter what religion they professed to follow, because they are psychologically messed up. You can’t reason with them. Don’t let them rent space in your head.
I’ve studied all the major religions for the last 20 years. I can see the appeal for Islam, Christianity, Buddhism (my favorite), and being 10 min. from Clearwater, Flordia — Scientology. But when a person is wacked, then no matter what they call themselves, they will distort the purity of the faith with their own agenda. Too bad. Nearly the major religions have basically the same stuff, but certain details are specific to the advent, some are for posterity. However are made up by pilfering the good stuff in Upanishads and other religious texts, as well as psychology to make a pile of dough (Scientology). I also thing that Mormonism was made up to make money and for fame.
April 5th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
I meant “think” not “thing” Sleepy.