I just can’t bear to blog on the Schiavo case right now because I think I might explode with rage if I don’t get a little time and distance from it. If I’m a rage-filled exploded shell of a woman, I won’t be able to take care of my children. Plus, eighteen thousand other liberal bloggers have already written on it. Maybe after the dust settles a little bit (when will that be?) I’ll write something on it.
But here’s an interesting thing: an ABC News poll shows that a majority (63%) of those polled support the removal of Ms. Schiavo’s feeding tube. In addition, an even larger majority (70%) say it’s inappropriate for Congress to get involved this way.
Whew! For a moment I thought we were all going crazy. But really it’s just our Republican-controlled government that’s going freaking crazy. But we already knew that, didn’t we?
Pingback: Irregular Times: News Unfit for Print
Pingback: Irregular Times: News Unfit for Print
I don’t disapprove of Ms. Shiavo’s right to die. However, the method in which she has been deemed to meet her end (starvation), is, in my mind, disgusting.
For everyone who cries over the “cruel and unusual” punishment of death row inmates (after a minimum of 10 years alive while the appeals process is allowed to play out): Where is the outcry over Ms. Shiavo’s method of “execution?” After all, what is more cruel than slowly dying minute by minute, day after day, for AT LEAST two weeks?
Like I said, I don’t disprove of Ms. Shiavo’s right-to-die (if indeed that was her wish. Those of you familiar with the case know the details; those of you who don’t, look ‘em up.) But good grief, when I hear more outcry over hoods on terrorist prisoners than on starving an innocent woman to death, something ain’t right ’round here.
70%. Wow. Just when I think the public is off its collective rocker, it surprises me with something like this.
Oh, Kevin – it’s not the decision of her husband to kill her. It’s the decision of her husband that she would not want the cruelty of having her body and brain stem go on and on without any higher human mind in existence.
Besides, where is the principle in making a law for just the case of one person? If the Republican position made any sense, they would be able to make a law that provides a general principle. They couldn’t, because there is no principle, just crass pandering to the extreme right-wing, the right-wing that believes that ending the life of a blastula is equivalent to the murder of a fully-competent adult human being.
Get a grip and get some perspective, Kevin. You’re either being spun or you’re part of the spin machine.
Big government Republicans intruding in private family affairs for the sake of the fanatacism of particular religious sects. You’re for that?
What part of starving is humane, Heretic?
Making law for JUST ONE PERSON? Uh, have you ever heard of Brown Vs. The Board Of Education of Topeka Kansas? Obviously not. A law starts with one person, Heretic, and applies to ALL.
Also, you need to read-up on the facts of the case, dude or dudette. Ms. Shiavo is not brain dead. She merely has a feeding tube. She can breathe, etc., ON HER OWN. Her only “crime” is not being able to feed herself.
I worked with profoundly retarded children last year as a teacher. One of the students in the class could breathe, etc. on his own, but he could not feed himself. Are you advocating starving him, just because he can’t feed himself?
Let’s kill quadriplegics while we’re at it, eh Heretic? Or, how about we kill amputees, too? After all, some of them may need help eating, too. In fact, let’s pass a law: If you can’t feed yourself, you’ll be to death.
And don’t forget, Heretic, the husband did not begin advocating removing the tube until TWO YEARS AFTER her accident. She never made a living will; he only stated that it was what she would want- two years after the fact.
Talk about brainwashing… sheesh.
Just saw the story: Protesters Storm Kyrgyzstan Government . . Now THAT’s how you protest bad government!
Her only “crime†is not being able to feed herself.
If this woman could be fed with a spoon and fork—hell, even a bottle—there would be no issue here. If her parents wanted to sit and feed her baby food for the rest of their lives, I’m sure no one would have a problem. This is not just a case of a woman who “can’t feed herself,” this is a woman who lacks the brain function necessary to swallow on cue.
Kevin,
You’re completely distorting the facts of the case, and what I said. I never said that Terry Schiavo had committed a crime. You said that. I never said she was “brain dead” you said that.
What I will say is that nothing but Mrs. Schiavo’s brain stem is working any longer. The brain stem takes care of only basic automatic physical functions, like heartbeat and breathing. If you think that having only so much brain left intact to allow for breathing and heartbeat is being alive, then I put you in the category of Republican extremists who believe that aborting the development of a blastula is morally equivalent to the killing of a fuly competent adult.
But then again, Kevin, you’re not really responding to what I am saying. You’re just ignoring what I and other people are really saying, and trying to set up a fake strawman to argue against. Shame on you, and your Republican extremist brethren, for playing politics with life. Didn’t you hear about the Republican congressional memo that said that the Republican Party should use this case for political gain??
You’re taking big government inside one particular family, and ignoring all the authority of the court system, and what the experts have said, and what the woman’s husband has said. So much for Republicans honoring the institution of marriage!!!! Phonies!
Brown vs. Board of Education was not law, Kevin. It was a judicial decision. Judicial decisions always take place in the context of a single case, and then are applied as precedents to other cases. Judges don’t make laws, that’s just another Rush-Limbaugh-Listener shrill and empty complaint. For the Republican U.S. Congress to make a law just for the purposes of intruding in the private affairs of one American family is an absurd abuse of federal power, and you’re all for it.
You once came on here and claimed to be a “moderate”, Kevin. Yet, at almost every opportunity, like this one, you align yourself with the radical fundamentalist fringe. You certainly use their tactics of avoiding honest discussion.
A good point, Heretic. I’ll point out another big distortion in Kevin’s initial comment.
The “outcry” good liberal Americans are making over torture isn’t just over hooded “terrorist” prisoners.
It’s over cases like those of the Iraqis who have had their country invaded under false pretenses, to be rounded up in general sweeps of neighborhoods with no grounds for suspicion of any crime at all, much less terrorism, to be tortured, raped, and even killed by their American captors. This treatment was applied to Iraqi women and children, Kevin.
Kevin seems to be, once again, intentionally distorting the case. Kevin, the huge numbers of out-and-out twistings of the truth in your comments on this one short Irregular Times post demonstrates that you’ve got a sharp and heavy axe to grind. Please step back and get some perspective, and realize that you’re talking to people who read, and don’t just get their news passively by listening to Republican radio ranters or by watching Fox News. We pay attention to the details, and we think that they matter.
Kevin,
This is not about whether or not Ms. Schiavo committed a crime. Obviously she didn’t. She suffered a terrible injury to her brain and as a result she is horribly, irreversibly ill. I don’t understand why you are talking about crime and punishment. Letting her die is one of the possible responses to her catastrophic injury. Letting her die is not a punishment. Crime and punishment have nothing to do with it. Anyway, the thing that makes a punishment cruel and unusual is that it causes undue suffering for the person being punished. Ms. Schiavo is incapable of suffering, so she is incapable of experiencing cruel and unusual punishment.
The medicine of the case really does make a differnce. In fact, it makes all the difference. Ms. Schiavo is not conscious. She does NOT “merely have a feeding tube.” Her higher brain has been destroyed. She can’t feel anything in the way you and I do. She is incapable of suffering. She is also incapable of joy, or any other emotion we recognize as human. According to the courts, her brain was so damaged by the lack of oxygen she suffered 15 years ago and continuing deterioration since then that she has no or very little cerebral cortex left. Sources are here and here. The cerebral cortex is the big part all over the top of the brain that houses the parts that make us human. That part of her skull is full of fluid. There’s no way at all that modern medicine knows how to rebuild a brain that badly damaged. The part Ms. Schiavo has left is her brain stem. That’s the part that regulates basic physiologic functions, like blood pressure, heart rate, etc. That’s also the part of her brain responsible for her reflexive actions that look so much like consciousness.
So let’s be very, very clear here. I am NOT advocating for starving people who can’t feed themselves, or people who are quadreplegics, or people who have had parts amputated. My brother has Down Syndrome and is severely mentally retarded. I don’t want to starve him. It’s NOT about feeding yourself. It’s about the brain. Sadly, Ms. Schiavo does not have a human-like brain to speak of. All those other people in your examples do. Huge, big, very large difference.
Starving is not going to hurt her one bit. As I said before, she’s incapable of feeling hurt. Of course, it will understandably hurt those who love her, particularly her parents, it seems. They clearly are very distraught over the loss of their daughter and are not at all accepting of her terrible fate. Unfortunately wishing something true doesn’t make it true. If it did, we would be living in a very different world. Who among us wouldn’t undo the Holocaust, or 9/11, or the tsunami, or any number of other horrible tragedies? Would we bring Terri back if we could? Of course we would. But we can’t.
The other point I wanted to address was your comparison of the actions of Congress with the courts in Brown vs. Board of Ed, particularly when it comes to actions on behalf of one individual. Big difference, Kevin, between Congress making emergeny law for one person and the courts ruling on one party’s case. Laws aren’t supposed to apply to just one person or party, whereas court conclusions are.
I know one thing for sure. I’m making a living will for myself! There’s no way I would want anyone in my family to suffer the way that family has suffered. I would want the healing to begin as soon as possible.
“If this woman could be fed with a spoon and forkâ€â€hell, even a bottleâ€â€there would be no issue here. If her parents wanted to sit and feed her baby food for the rest of their lives, I’m sure no one would have a problem.”
Becca: Her parents DO want to do that.
To all of you: It amazes me that some will argue until they are blue in the face for a condemned killer, but take an innocent woman like Shiavo and BAM! It’s “let’s have a plug pullin’ party fellas! Yeeeehaaaw!”
The point is, if she were a condemned killer and there were ANY doubt of her innocence, I know for a fact some of y’all would be on here arguing for further testing, examination, investigation, etc. The fact that her oh-so-loving husband WAITED TWO YEARS before proclaiming “It’s what she would want” does not arouse any suspicion in any of you? The fact that HER FAMILY IS WILLING TO CARE FOR HER MEANS NOTHING TO ANY OF YOU? Y’all are basically saying to the family, “To heck with y’all. We know what’s best for your daughter, and we don’t give one rat’s ass what you want. Allright, Bobby, pull the plug!”
Peregrin: I’m not distorting any facts. The facts are:
1) She has a family willing to take care of her
2) Her husband waited two years before realizing what her “wishes” would be
3)Her brain is obviously functioning, as she only requires feeding. Guess y’all haven’t seen the video of her smiling as her mother talks to her… Oh wait, that’s probably just gas, right?
4)Did I mention her family wants to take care of her?
Peregrin, you lack foundation in your accusations. I distorted nothing; the facts are there, you and some others simply choose to ignore them or look through foggy rose-colored glasses.
Heretic: Brown vs. Board of Education did not become the basis for a law? Excuse me?
Tracy:
“Ms. Shiavo is incapable of suffering, so she is incapable of experiencing cruel and unusual punishment.”
Really? She isn’t? And you know this, how? Are you a doctor? (Forgive me if you are.)
Again, I’m not aruguing that Ms. Shiavo should not be allowed to die IF SHE HAD SO DECREED WHILE ALIVE. But there is no evidence to back this up, and the husband waits until 2 years later to have this revelation?
Damn. Maybe the family SHOULD HAVE put a sack over her head…
Tracy is right. The medical science of this case abso-friggin-lutely does matter—and Republicans are just determined to ignore it. Just like they don’t want to understand the science of fetal development…just like they don’t want to hear any scientific evidence for evolution…it’s all willful ignorance, and it disgusts me.
And I really don’t know why Kevin insists on comparing Terri Schiavo to any kind of criminal. That line of “argument” is beyond ridiculous.
P.S. If her parents want to spoon-feed her baby food, let them try it on camera and we’ll see how their daughter “responds.” I promise you, removing this feeding tube would not be such a big deal if Terri Schiavo were capable of being fed by any other means. I read that it’s “debatable” whether spoon-feeding would work. Debatable my ass. If she could survive without the feeding tube, this wouldn’t be an issue. And if it turns out that she can be fed by spoon, I’ll (a) stand corrected, and (b) be incredibly confused as to why this crap is all over my TV right now.
Kevin,
Actually, I’m a medical student. So I’m not a doctor, but I will be soon.
I know that if a person is missing most of their cerebral cortex, they cannot feel emotion, including suffering. I also know they will not recover. Lucky for her all these years, that she was unaware of her circumstances.
Did you know that the video showing her responding is 4 1/2 minutes long, and it was edited from 4 1/2 hours of tape. If you give a randomly reflexing person commands long enough, eventually they will appear to respond by coincidence. If you pick out all those times, you might get about 4 1/2 mintues of tape! The courts went through all of this already.
By the way, if a prisoner guilty of a henious crime suffered oxygen deprivation to his brain, ended up in a persistent vegetative state, and had told his wife that he would not have wanted to live that way, I would be arguing just the same way. Despite the fact that he’s a criminal, he’s still a person, still a patient, and his wishes regarding his health circumstances are still worthy of the same respect.
As for your point about Michael Schiavo waiting years before claiming he knew what Terri’s wishes were – if something that tragic happened to your partner, wouldn’t you want to wait a good long while before concluding the situation was really bad enough to warrant acting on his or her wishes? Also, tragic events like that can really be an emotional strain. What if it took that long for Mr. Schiavo to come to terms with his loss and with his wife’s wishes? Think about it – he would have needed to conclude that his wife was gone forever and that he was going to have to let go, even though her body was still there. Don’t you think that would be one of the most difficult things you’d ever have to do in your whole life? Isn’t it reasonable, in fact, to assume that it would take any normal person quite a while to come to grips with that? Wouldn’t we have worried even more if he stepped forward with Terri’s wishes right away? Too soon?
That’s a nice segue to what should be the real issue here: Terri Schiavo’s values and wishes. (There we go again with the patient’s values.) That’s what the whole thing hinges on in a situation like this. Can it be determined what she would’ve wanted? Many courts, ad infinitum it seems, have found that Mr. Schiavo’s testimony about his wife’s wishes were valid. We as a society need to honor the patient’s wishes and values when they can be determined. Not honoring the patient’s wishes in such a personal and dire situation means taking away the very last shred of control, and therefore dignity, that she has.
To sum: Terri Schiavo’s condition is that she is irreversibly in a persistent vegetative state – unconscious. The courts have found over and over that her husband’s testimony that she would not have wanted to live that way is valid. She would not have wanted to live this way. Her wishes have not been granted. Now the Republicans, with virtually no fight from the Democrats, are abusing their power in a most egregious way to make sure that her wishes will not be honored any time in the near future.
It’s so tragic and wrong, I can hardly bear it.
“Kevin seems to be, once again, intentionally distorting the case. Kevin, the huge numbers of out-and-out twistings of the truth in your comments on this one short Irregular Times post demonstrates that you’ve got a sharp and heavy axe to grind”…That’s the pot callig the kettle black P Wood. And leave it to you make drag Iraq into this. GET OVER IT ALREADY. Don’t lecture someone to not do something you constantly do. It is VERY illogical that, by having credible experts testify that she does have hope, that you would not error on the side of life. Convicted murderers get more consideration than that.
Too many issues here to responde to all…but Tracy, you are wrong and the fact that your a medical student is scary. Dr Hammefahr(sp), who is up for the Nobel prize in this area, says SHE IS TREATABLE and thathe thinks he can get her to speak. So I won’t address the rest of your argument because it is useless to do.
Nice, short summary of medical issues surrounding Ms. Schiavo’s case at WebMD.
Hoosier Texan,
Source?
Anyone can be nominated for a Nobel prize. It’s spelled Hammesfahr, by the way. Dr. William Hammesfahr.
The standard test of the quality of this guy’s ideas is whether he’s had them successfully peer-reviewed. So why do I see that no entries for a Dr. William Hammesfahr exist on the thorough PubMed index of medical research?
I guess this is just a very difficult thing. It depends on who you are and what your life experiences are on how you see this. I agree that the Repub’s are slime-Tom Delay in particular. I’m not sure that Barney What’s his name isn’t slime even though he’s a democrat-I’ve seen a story on Tom Flocco about his being a child sex abuser.
I have an autistic son. He’s not severe no where near as disabled as Ms. Schiavo, but the truth is, I can’t be so cynical about death and disability. I’m not sure this is a “right to die” case. I can see how some might see it that way, but I believe that her husband is was a wife abuser before her heart attack-he had to know she was bulemic. Please, he didn’t do anything to help her and it is no easy quick thing to die from bulemia. I have had this disorder in my life as a young girl. It took me five months to become “weak”. Her eating disorder had to have gone on for a matter of a year or more. He obviously liked the effect of her sickness on her physique-what a freakin narcissist! He didn’t try to help her then, why should he be given more chances to abuse her now. What is his responsibility in this?
Has anyone read Dean Koontz’s “One Door Away From Heaven”? Yeah, he’s a wierdo, but I believe he may have a point about the “eugenics” thing. I don’t want someone getting legal control over my child and deciding that he shouldn’t live because of his disability.
Give this woman back to her parents and let them care for her. It doesn’t seem too much to ask. Plus, who says that the doctors know anything. As George Carlin says “It’s all guesswork and a white coat!” I know this is true because I have had “professional doctors” tell me that my autistic son was a little delayed, but they thought he just mostly needed a father. Great diagnosis there Dr. Helpful!!! That was prior to the Autism diagnosis I had to work my butt off to get. These doctors are so busy and have seen so many desperate parents that they disconnect from seeing each patient as an individual. It takes more that fifteen minutes in a small room to see-really see-what a disabled person might be able to overcome.
Plus, I’d like to say that the Florida Courts aren’t exactly known for being sane-see Election 2000.
Interestingly enough, I would think that we could see just how beneficial of an arm twisting device this might prove to be in the future. We Progressives must learn to be creative and how to use their “showing of their hands” as a tool in the fight for our country. Fear is the one thing we should never let them make us feel. Let Congress push, I believe we’ve had a lot of people turn against Bush over this-Finally!!!
Thank You Ms. Schiavo!
Dr. Hammersfahr is a real gem. Apparently, he violated Florida state law by charging a patient for services that were not provided. The medical board fined Hammesfahr $2,000, placed him on probation for six months, and ordered him to pay approximately $52,000 in administrative costs and to perform 100 hours of community service. While the board also ruled that Hammesfahr’s treatment of stroke patients, using a procedure he has claimed could help Terri Schiavo, was “not within the generally accepted standard of care”, it may have helped a few people. Emphasis mine. Source here. You can view the disciplinary document here.
Shady character.
My sympathies to Both the husband AND the parents of Ms. Schaivo. We all can only imagine the grief and the emotional tug-of-war that they must all be experiencing. What I find truely dispicable is the way the Republinazis have played and parleyed this case into a media circus for their most vocal and fanatical supporters: the so-called Religious Right. Folks, the poor woman hasn’t occupied that body in two years. The only thing left functioning, to the best of my understanding, is the brain stem, which controls autononic functions such as breathing, heartbeat perspiration, etc. NONE of the higher functions are there;indeed they haven’t been there for two years. She’s not coming back from this one. She never wanted to have something like this to happen to her and she expressed the desire to die with some degree of dignity to her husband if it ever did. The far-right wing’s effort to subvert these desires is not merely despicible, it puts the lie to the stated Republican goal of “less Big Government interference” rather neatly, doesn’t it? Seems its okay for the Federal Government to interfere with something that can and should be dealt with in a STATE court only as long as the REPUBLICANS control both the Executive branch, the Legislative branch, and are nearly in control of the Judicial branch.To all involved I beg of you: Let this circus end. Let her wishes be abided by. Let her go in peace. And, if you’re of a mind to, say a prayer for her tonight.
This is a court document from 2002 discussing at length how the court came to the conlcusion that Ms. Schiavo is indeed in a persistent vegetative state. It discusses Dr. Hammersfahr a little bit, and goes into great detail about Ms. Shiavo’s “response” to stimuli. I found the part about the court-ordered test given to Ms. Shiavo particularly informative:
Also, it’s hardly fair to condemn either side. We don’t know these people. Surely by now, thanks to all those “reality” shows, we all know how easy it is for the media to make people into one-dimensional characters. We like the good guys versus the bad guys, but how often does that really happen? Someone said that Mr. Schiavo was probably abusive, because his wife had bulimia. From what I understand, eating disorders are quite difficult to treat. We have no idea how he reacted to it, if he was in denial, was constantly begging her to get treatment, or what. It’s not right to make these assumptions when you know nothing about these people.
I haven’t really been following this case, just like I haven’t been following the Michael Jackson trial. Except for the horrifying abuse of power by two branches of our government (excellent point on the Daily Show tonight about Bush not even leaving his ranch for a tsunami before), this has no bearing on my life. At all. This is not my business, and it shouldn’t affect me unless it makes people aware of the need of a legal, gentle way for people to shuffle off this mortal coil if necessary. However, this is a godsend for the Republicans. They can make their rabidly pro-life base happy and have great soundbites for their next elections while distracting from the second anniversary of the Iraq invasion. Weren’t there protests? Anyone have stories about those?
What’s striking to me is how quickly the Republican majorities in both houses of Congress and the Republican president will fling the entire governmental structure into addressing the well-being of one individual, against a volume of evidence,
while failing to exercise the powers of government to address the well-being of millions of people, even when presented a volume of evidence regarding the such actions’ efficacy.
Okay, HOLD IT!!!
What are you lot babbling on about?
Right to end one’s life or human vegetables?
In England, we don’t legalise killing humans in ANY way, because of all the problems it brings up… However, people are allowed, if they want to have their lives ended due to terminal illnesses, take a holiday to a country that does allow it.
Human vegetables… Well… Organ donars? Sorry to be cold, but once the brain’s dead, the person’s almost certainly gone. It’s a sad death, to be sure, but death happens a LOT.
So… Is this right to end one’s own life or human vegetables?
Personally, though, I find it odd that although humans are the only animals who EVER try to end their own lives, they’re pretty much the ONLY animal you can’t easily legally kill for “humane” reasons.
Where’s Hoosier Texan with sources?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43164
He was also one of 113 nominees in 1999 for the Nobel prize.
Tracy, you posted the court saw what could be deemed few responses to stimuli. ANY response should cause one to error on the side of life. And you can attack Shiavo’s husbands experts as well as Dr. Hammersfahr. Point is, she has not even had a swallow test since 1992. As soon as her husband got a boat load of $ in the 90′s, he stopped her treatments!
Hoosier Texan, it’s your fellow Republican Kevin who brought in the Iraq issue. I think that his rants and your rants on this issue speak quite eloquently to the base nature of the Republican Party’s intentions with the Schiavo case.
I would never suggest that Mrs. Schiavo’s parents are doing anything but trying to hold on to what is left of their daughter. However, the way that the fundamentalist fringe of the Republican Party is using them like human marionettes is disgusting.
If the Republican Party truly valued the sanctity of life, they would leave this poor family alone.
random42,
I’m certainly not condemning either side of Ms. Schiavo’s family. Their loss is profound, and no one really knows how they will respond to such a situation until they’re in it. I have the utmost sympathy for her parents in losing their daughter, especially in this way. But it doesn’t change the fact that Terri’s wishes are not being honored.
Also, I would argue that this case potentially has a lot more to do with your life than Michael Jackson’s. Unless you are a once-black, once-great but now washed up weirdo super famous singer living on a large ranch with lots of animals and being charged with molesting kids (forgive me if you are!), you will never have to face what he is facing. On the other hand, one very unlucky event could land you in a situation exactly like Ms. Schiavo’s. Or it could happen to someone you care about, and then you will be in the position of trying to make these kinds of decisions on behalf of someone else. In fact, this case is illustrative of the sorts of life-and-death issues that people must face all the time, and it’s very, very good for people to have a public discussion about the relevant issues. It might help someone clarify their own values and wishes should they end up in a situation like that, and it might prompt them to make their wishes known in some formal kind of way. That would go a long way toward preventing the sort of circus trauma we have witnessed in Ms. Schiavo’s case. If Ms. Schiavo had had a living will, we most likely would not be witnesses this craziness of accusations flying everywhere. She would either already be dead and buried according to her wishes, or she would be peacefully maintained on life support with no legal action to end her bodily life, again according to her wishes.
Even though I’m not religious, the case makes me think of the saying, “There but for the grace of God go I.”
Becca: There are affadavits from nurses who claim, under oath, that Terry CAN be spoonfed. Also, doctors HAVE observed Ms. Shiavo responding to television and other stimuli. Mr. Shiavo REFUSES to allow a tv to be turned on in her room.
My point with the criminal comparison is that, and I’ll say this REAL slow for some of y’all (not necessarily you, Becca, okay?): I find it ironic that a convicted murderer gets the sympathy vote from some Liberals when faced with punishment for his/her heinous crime. Ms. Shiavo, to the best of my knowledge, is not a criminal, yet some Liberals (and Conservatives, mind you) are calling for her to die by starvation? Where are the priorities here?
Two factors not working in Terry’s favor: The case has gone on so long that the facts of the case have been “established,” (that statement confuses me as well), so the affadavits are inadmissible. Second, Michael Shiavo REFUSES to allow Terry to have anything in the room that might be considered stimuli, such as a tv. Why? You’d have to ask him his motives…
As for the two-year waiting period, I would think one could draw a reasonable conclusion a lot sooner than that. Plus, Mr. Shiavo’s reluctance to allow the family to take custody of someone he obviously wishes to sever ties with is again suspect. Ask yourselves: What does Terry’s family have to gain by keeping her alive, versus what Michael has to gain by allowing Terry to die. Here’s a hint: There is still some money left in Terry’s care account that came from the lawsuit against the hospital. Figures differ, ranging from $50k to $300k.
Also, I mentioned earlier that I worked with profoundly retarded students, students who, according to some on here, would be considered brain-dead vegetables who should be put out of their ‘misery.’
How rich, the audacity of some of you, who sit there on your velvet thrones and judge without a hint of experience working with these types of individuals. For 4 1/2 years, I worked with these kids; 3 years part-time, 1 1/2 years full-time. I can tell you, with absolute certainty, that these kids RESPONDED to stimuli. Not all the time, no. But they DID. And I tell you, one has to be a heartless S.O.B. NOT to be affected by that experience.
Would you have them put down simply because they can’t feed themselves? Would you end their life simply because they will never lead a ‘normal’ life? The Nazis had a program for this, and we all know how well that went over.
I worked with one student whose goal for the academic year was to “grab a teacher’s hand on his own without assistance.” He never met that goal; should we put him down? After all, he had a whole ACADEMIC YEAR to do someting but he never did. Why don’t we tell his parents that, sorry, he’ll never be normal and it’s in his (and their) best interest to end his life. I have their phone number/address, should any of you wish to correspond with them.
I can get all the facts I want about World War II from books, movies, and tv shows; but if I REALLY want to know what World War II was like, I’ll ask a soldier who was actually there.
I agree with Hoosier Texan: Does it not make sense to err on the side of LIFE??? Also, Hoosier Texan, thanks for pointing out the shade of Peregrin’s cooking receptacle.
Ohhh, right. A “maybe human vegetable”.
Brain scans show what?
If she responds to stimuli; she’s not a vegetable.
If that’s the case what ANY of her relations, however close, say; it’s HER human rights we should be thinking of, not what they say.
Her husband shouldn’t get a say in what’s in her room if they’re trying to find out whether or not she’s still alive.
America; your health care needs a lot of improvement.
“America; your health care needs a lot of improvement.”
No argument there, HareTrinity.
HareTrinity: But I ask you (and others): Why WOULDN’T Michael Schiavo want stimuli, such as a tv, in her room?
After all, if she is truly a “vegetable,” she won’t respond, right? It shouldn’t matter, right?
My point is that I think Michael, if I may borrow from Shakespeare, doth protest too much.
And no, her husband SHOULDN’T have a say in her care, since he is attempting to sever all ties with her. What’s the harm in allowing her family to care for her?
Oops, sorry, Tracy, didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were demonizing Schiavo’s parents. That was more directed at Carmen and a sort of generalized annoyance at what I hear out here in the real world. Kevin’s just proven my point beautifully: Kevin, did you know that he was offered $1 million dollars to give up the care of Terry to her parents? So, please, can we stop accusing people based on the few things we know about them from television? Again, a very generalized plea from having to deal with too many of these television fiascos.
I also know that this case brings up interesting questions in my own life. It is also a good human interest story. However, why do we have the federal government and all our news media focusing on it? Is nothing else going on this week? It’s like the Peterson trial. That one brought up all sorts of debate about fetus rights and about the Laci and Connor law, but, really, did they cover it and legislate on it for any other reasons than laziness and distraction?
Finally, and then I have to go to work, this case is not about euthanizing people who can’t take care of themselves against their wishes. It is about the right to die. Schiavo discussed with her husband what she wanted to have happen if worse came to worse. No, she didn’t have a living will, but how many of us do, at least before this hapened? No one, except Bush, wants to go around killing children with disorders, no matter how profound. Yes, that’s right: except Bush. Wasn’t he the one who signed into law the bill allowing hospitals to pull the plug on patients like Schiavo whose families couldn’t afford care? Wasn’t this bill used just recently in the case of a 6 month old, against his parents’ wishes?
Kevin,
Did you even read my comment #9? Especially the part where I said
I’m calling for her to die by starvation because she’s in a persistent vegetative state, and that is what she would have wanted. There’s no reasonable comparison to a criminal. I’ll tell you where the priorities are: honoring Ms. Schiavo’s wishes. Why are you so intent on thwarting her wishes?
And did you the read the part in my comment #9 where I said
My Mom and Dad still to this day take care of all my brother’s needs – bathing, eating, toileting, getting him up in the morning, putting him to sleep at night, getting him to work, picking him up from work, etc. The list goes on and on. My Mom has been responsible for the personal hygeine of at least two people, day in and day out, ever since the day I was born – herself and at least one of her children. Since there are four of us kids, many years, she was responsible for the daily personal needs of 5 people. That’s a huge responsibility. My parents’ responsibilities to my brother will not end until either my brother dies or they die. If they die before my brother dies, I will assume guardianship of my brother, and I and my family will take over all those responsibilities. You better believe this shaped my whole experience of life, family, and self, for the better. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
So, I’m not on a velvet throne judging without a hint of experience working with these individuals, as you say, and I really really resent your implication. In fact, I’ve had experience “working with these individuals” FOR MY WHOLE LIFE, IN MY FAMILY! And yes, I’m yelling. So, I’ll repeat, it’s not about feeding. Sure, she can be spoonfed, but does that mean she has consciousness or will ever regain consciousness? No. The brainstem can take care of feeding issues without consciousness. Do you really not get this very important distinction, or are you just not paying attention? Kevin, please address this point directly. It’s a really crucial distinction.
I also think you have callously little compassion for Mr. Shiavo. One could come to a conclusion about what should be done in less than two years, but one could take up to two years or more. Have you lost your partner to a catastrophic injury? I’m sorry for your loss if you have, but still no one can really know what it’s like for someone else in that circumstance. I can easily imagine it taking two years to come to terms with such a tragedy.
Yes, Kevin. You seem dedicated to not reading what anyone here has to say. You just launch on your diatribe, repeating yourself over and over again.
I find it ironic that you snort at liberals for sitting on velvet thrones, when it’s quite clearly the Republican elites who control the entire American government who are the ones in power on this issue. I don’t have a velvet throne. I have a wooden chair at my kitchen table. The Republican elites can afford any kind of throne they want, and they’re the ones enthroned in power. We liberals are on the outside of power. You’re on the inside, with the fundamentalists, so please lay off the petty throne insults.
I find it ironic that Bush now declares that whenever there is the smallest tiny smidge of doubt, the American government should err on the side of life. That’s certainly not the position that he and his Republican elitist friends took when they invaded Iraq and killed 100,000 people. I don’t believe that’s the position you took then either.
As with Iraq, the Republican position in the Schiavo case is that the evidence doesn’t matter – gut beliefs are all that count. That’s a terrible attitude with which to run the United States of America.
Oh, and Kevin, maybe you could explain to me why the Republicans are so hot and heavy to go around bashing gay people in the name of “defending the institution of marriage”, but are now insisting that, as you suggest, a husband and wife are not family at all?
Ooooooh. Good one, Heretic. Yes, Kevin, let’s hear it.
Mr. has a common law marriage now with another woman who he has children with…Mr. has been under a cloud of suspicion as to having sumething to do with her demise and current state.
Heretic, where do you get that we have killed 100K in Iraq?
Tracy, you go! I think you’ve skewered the whole “haven’t walked in their shoes” argument. There are plenty of people who have walked in the shoes of the Schiavos, or shoes somehow analagous to theirs (speaking of analogies, this one’s getting stretched) who don’t end up thinking about things the way those parents do. What I see when I look at those parents are a couple of people who are clinging to shreds of hope. That’s sad. Just sad.
Kevin,
Um, the Lancet.
You’re blaming Michael Schiavo for moving on with his life? That’s cold, man. And there’s no evidence M.S. did anything. Your careful use of “cloud of suspicion” betrays this. I could just as easily say you’re under a “cloud of suspicion” for developing WMDs and spreading siphyllis. Why? Because, see, I’m suspecting you of it! Look, a “cloud of suspicion!”
You, like so many others who are trying to use a shell of a person to make a point (for shame!) are grasping at straws.
Heretic: My dad is gay, and I would appreciate you ceasing the gay bashing insinuations toward me. Got it?
Heretic, you are a member of the opposite side of the fringe you so accuse me of being a member of. Your posts, your rants, your beliefs are all so one-sided and intolerant that they have blinded you to reality. You accuse me of being the “wacko” (my words, not yours), but it amazes me that you are so quick to judge and discredit my beliefs simply because they do not allign with your twisted sense of fairness and right.
I could really care less what kind of chair you have, Heretic. Using the phrase “velvet throne” was what those of us who use creative device in our writing call “hyperbole.”
Heretic, I seem to have made more of an impression on you than you have on me. Wonder why.
Now, onto someone I actually respect:
Tracy: Did you read MY post? Obviously, my comments were not directed at you or any others with experience dealing with these individuals. I believe I wrote, “How rich, the audacity of some of you, who sit there on your velvet thrones and judge without a hint of experience working with these types of individuals.” You and others like you KNOW what it means to care for these people; obviously, I would not condemn you for it.
As far as addressing your spoon feeding comment: You illustrated my point to Becca beautifully. She CAN be spoonfed. So could the student I mentioned. I am not arguing that Schiavo will ever recover, but you seem to think I believe she will. Incorrect. She DESERVES to be allowed to live, if there is ANY doubt as to her condition- especially when the only piece of equipment keeping her alive is a feeding tube, that is not necessary, assuming she can be spoon fed.
The student I mentioned could not be spoonfed. He had to be fed through a tube that led into his stomach.
By the way: I bought my chairs on sale at Wal-Mart 5 years ago.
And Heretic, why do you insist on continually changing the subject?
You started with Schiavo and have ended up with gay bashing. Why?
Peregrin, are you taking note of this?
Who are we? Why do we have so much time to log on hour after hour and do this?
Kevin,
Okay, I’m a little calmer now. About spoon feeding, YOU may think spoonfeeding is a valid criteria for maintaining life without consciousness, and I encourage you to put that in your living will or tell your health care power of attorney that so your wishes can be carried out. But apparently Ms. Schiavo didn’t have the same value about spoonfeeding that you do. Through the best ways our country has devised to settled such questions (the courts), it has been determined more than once that she would not have wanted to live if she were in a persistent vegetative state. Being in a persistent vegetative state includes the possibility that you can be spoonfed, apparently. She didn’t say, “I don’t want to be kept alive if I can’t be spoonfed, but I want to be kept alive if I can be fed.” In other words, I don’t believe that the moral weight in this case is in spoonfeeding, but rather in consciousness and the possibility for meaningful recovery. Feeding methods are not a good proxy for consciousness.
It’s quite possible that Ms. Schiavo didn’t think about feeding methods when she talked to her husband about her wishes. But that’s just a further indication that that was not an important consideration for her. And to be honest, that’s the way it is for most people. Consciousness is the important consideration. Why is this? Consciousness is what allows humans to have meaningful interactions with each other, and it’s usually this that matters most to people. It’s our ability to have relationships that people tend to value most. Just last night, my husband told me that if he was “locked in”, a truly horrible condition in which a person cannot move at all, not even their eyes, but they’re still conscious, he would want to live. That’s because he feels he could still have meaningful relationships with others because he would be conscious of others’ love and care for him. I of course will carry out his wishes if I ever need to, even though he would be incapable of feeding himself. Fortunately that condition is really rare, but I did see one man with it in school and it’s truly terrifying.
It’s not universally true that people value consciousness the most. Lots of people out there just want to live no matter what. If someone indicates that in a living will or through a health care power of attorney, then my understanding from my training is that their wishes are carried out the vast majority of the time. But what happens more often is that there’s no documentation about what the person would have wanted. My understanding is that in those cases, maintenance on life support is the default position. In fact, it’s more likely that someone will be kept alive against their wishes (like in the Schiavo case), than will be let die against their wishes. We do err on the side of life. Often the only information we have is just a conversation, like in the Schiavo case. But that’s still an indication of what they would have wanted. In this country we have charged the courts with ultimately determining when a conversation is enough evidence to say that we know what the person would have wanted so we can at least try to do right by them. The Schiavo case exhausted those normal avenues, and it was always found that she would not have wanted to live like this.
Signing off for a while.
It’s been made very clear by the exchange here just how empty the Republican rationale for this law to attack one family is. Thanks, especially, to the Republicans commenting here, for showing that logic doesn’t matter, facts don’t matter, and moral principle doesn’t matter. For the Republican Party, this is a matter of blind religious belief – theology over common sense. What a shame.
Kevin & Hoosier,
You argument that this is a personal issue that Bush had to step into because of his live of life or because of his religious convictions is utter rubbish.
In 1999, when Dubya was the governor of Texas, he signed a bill into law called the “Texas Futile Care Act” which allowed hospitals to pull the plug on critically ill patients despite family members’ objections. In more than one Texas case, the family’s ability to pay the hospital tab was a factor in the hospital’s decision to ‘pull the plug.’ In light of the Terri Schiavo case, why is nobody mentioning this vulgar display of hypocrisy by George W. Bush? Read on:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/sfl-abush22mar22,0,4391162.story?coll=sfla-news-florida
Two Texas cases:
“Sun Hudson, a six-month-old boy with a fatal congenital disease, died Thursday after a Texas hospital, over his mother’s objections, withdrew his feeding tube. The child was apparently certain to die, but was conscious. The hospital simply decided that it had better things to do than keeping the child alive, and the Texas courts upheld that decision after the penniless mother failed, during the 10-day window provided for by Texas law, to find another institution willing to take the child.”
“Sun Hudson is dead, but 68-year-old Spiro Nikolouzos is still alive, thanks to an emergency appeals court order issued yesterday. However, his life support could be cut off at any moment. A nursing home is willing to take him if his family can show that he will be covered by Medicaid after his Medicare runs out. Otherwise, the hospital gets to pull the plug.”\
http://www.markarkleiman.com/archives/_/2005/03/schiavo_hudson_and_nikolouzos.php
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7201470/
Pauly
Pauly: It is often the case with newborns with Sun’s condition that doctors recommend death. Sun was literally suffocating to death, slowly but surely. “From the time Sun was born … he was on life support because his chest cavity and lungs could not grow and develop the capacity to support his body. He was slowly suffocating to death,” Texas Children’s said…”
His breathing tube, not feeding tube, was removed.
Also, it’s interesting to note that Sun’s mother named him so because she believed the Sun (yes, that big, bright, life-giving/sustaining orb in the sky), was the father of her child.
“Sun was born with a fatal form of dwarfism characterized by short arms, short legs and lungs too tiny to sustain his body, doctors said. Nearly all babies born with the incurable condition, often diagnosed in utero, die shortly after birth, genetic counselors say.” (from the same Houston Chronicle article)
Pauly, this isn’t about religion- at least on my end; I can’t speak for everyone who share my view in this case. I never once mentioned religon, so I hope you are basing that opinion from sources elsewhere. What this case boils down to is NOT whether anyone has the RIGHT to die (I firmly believe in that choice, as I have stated before), but rather, where do we go from here? Are all those deemed unfit to live because they require artificial means to do so doomed to permanent expulsion? Where do we draw the line?
Does anyone even know that this woman can be spoonfed? She supposedly swallows her own saliva, but maybe it just runs down her throat all by itself—I’ve certainly never seen her swallow in any of the footage they show on TV. I’m seriously not convinced that she could be fed with a spoon. If this woman can eat with a spoon, then what is the big damn deal w/ the feeding tube?
I personally don’t believe that Terri Schiavo can do anything on cue—including swallowing. They spend a lot of time talking about her supposedly following a balloon with her eyes—if she could swallow on command, I think we would’ve heard about it. The only reference I could find to spoon-feeding was from the one shady doctor.
But anyway…
Pauly, I made no such argument. I never brought Bush into this. I am not big on the federal gov’t getting involved in most cases like this. But I feel his is different only because many say she can be rehabilitated. Problem is, no on has tried for years.
Please don’t accuse me of an argument I haven’t made