A quick update:
Earlier today, I wrote about how Douglas S. Smith, program director for the Boy Scouts of America has been caught sending out huge files of child pornography – including images of children who may be boy scouts themselves – all across America.
Well, now we find out that there’s another wrinkle. It turns out that in his position as program director for the Boy Scouts of America, Mr. Smith was in charge of writing rules to prevent boy scouts from being sexually abused.
You see, over the decades, so many boy scouts had been abused by their pack leaders that the Boy Scouts were forced by lawsuits in the 1990s to overhaul their procedures for dealing with children. Now it appears that the Boy Scouts actually hired a pedophile to protect children from sexual abusers in the Boy Scouts organization!
When the person who’s supposed to solve a history of widespread abuse in an organization is actually involved in the abuse himself, there’s one word that best describes the crisis: Systemic. This isn’t about an isolated incident. It’s about a culture of sexual abuse and corruption in the Boy Scouts of America.
Some people say that it’s worth supporting the Boy Scouts in spite of the organization’s sordid history of widespread sexual abuse. They say that it’s worth supporting the Boy Scouts in spite of the organization’s written practice of discriminating against secular families and gay youths. They say that it’s worth supporting the Boy Scouts in spite of the organization’s lax dependence upon a government dole.
What do they think makes the support worth it? Moral values, they say. Moral values! Think, parents, before you let your boys join the Boy Scouts, and you leave your young boy to go out on a camping trip with their so-called “leaders”. Don’t just listen to what the Boy Scouts of America says about its programs. Pay attention to what the Boy Scouts of America actually does.
The moral values taught by actions of the Boy Scouts of America are especially dangerous for children: Blind obedience in authority, sexual abuse, trafficking in sexual images of children, abuse of power, corruption, discrimination against cultural minorities, and lazy dependence on government welfare. The Boy Scouts of America seems to think that those are traditional values. Well, there are some traditions that we are better off without, thank you.
Hey, if you want to send your boy off to this pack of wolves, that’s your business. Just don’t ask me to support them with my tax dollars, please.
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Glad we don’t have anything like that taken very seriously over here…
Where’s Hoosier to tell us that these kids were right to let themselves get embarrassed into not telling anyone about the abuse?
This is another example of how encouraging people to question authority and trust their own feelings from an early age would be better.
HT,
That has nothing to do with questioning authority. It has everything to do with teaching my children what is and is not proper touching. And making this a political issue is pathetic.
Did you ever play organized sports HT?
Um, Hoosier Texan, Bill Frist is the guy making this a political issue. And when the Boy Scouts of America ask for public money to fund their discriminatory religious militaristic boy-molesting agenda, THAT makes it a political issue, so blame the Boy Scouts, bucko!
Well, Hoosier; child molesters tend to use embarrassment as a way of stopping children from letting anyone else know that they got molested.
If children were more confident and used to believing that someone’s being older doesn’t make them right, it would increase the chance of them at least asking someone else, such as a parent, about it.
It’s amazing how Republicans say they’re against big government – except when their favorite Right Wing organizations, like the Boy Scouts get money.
The BSA may have some real, how to put this…, some real screwballs running it. Its a real issue that needs to be worked out, but that doesn’t mean that everyone all the way down is a gay-hating, Mormon pervert. I acknowledge that some of the policies shouldn’t be in place, but the program really is beneficial. Believe me, it would be better for children to be taught obedience to their elders than to have a bunch of ADD ridden children running haywire. Many of the scoutmasters within the programs are normal, productive members of society who just enjoy teaching children useful skills and values. Thats right, values… BSA does have values. Some f@$#s just have to ruin it for everyone.
Oh yeah, some real militaristic, obey-at-all-costs, screw the liberals, anti-secular values. No thanks, I’m not letting them get near my boy!
A thoughtful and rational commentary. The sad fact is that most of the volunteer leaders in Scouting agree with you but find ourselves powerless to do much. The paid staff in BSA are much like the Catholic priesthood – in too many ways. There are “true believers” who are great for Scouting but too many others who find life in the higher ranks overpaid and more secure than any job they could ever get anywhere else. BSA provides a venue for petty dictators who would never survive their own incompetence in a competitive business environment. Their focus is on covering their own tails and keeping what they’ve got. Hence all the enrollment scandals and other horrendous problems in BSA. BSA is run by the paid staff for their own benefit – look at the salaries being paid to people running local Councils and in National posts.
Hey instead of lambasting the situation, do something about it. BSA should have a long time ago made the requirement for a more in depth look into the criminal background, (if any), the moral background: ie: recommendations of and from others in the professional community, and made requirements and possibly an insurance program for members directly involved with the children. Unfortunately in today’s world, it’s too easy to get away with something as horrible as this! Look at teaching organizations, the catholic church or any church for that matter. We see a lot of it going on and it’s the kids who suffer. They suffer both from those who do the inappropriate behavior and also from not having the opportunity to join a program designed to help them. Unfortunately that’s the flaw. It’s designed to help the child but also, because of it’s lax security procedures, it helps those who would take advantage of the situation. BSA is somewhat of a private organization put together to help boys become better members of our society. It has helped many boys over the years. I think my moral values and how I conduct myself as a person and an educator are in direct relation to what I learned when I was a cub scout those so many years ago.
I do something about it already. I keep my son the hell away from these pedophile semimilitary sickos.
Also, write your congressman. Don’t just sit back and look at what should not be. Anything that has ever been done in the known world at one time or another was thought impossible. Make a change, take a chance, don’t be a half empty person, be a half full person! Write your congressman. Have them design a bill that supports a more in depth background check and reoccurring checks on people directly involved with children! I do it as a teacher, everyone should have to do it too! It’s part of our moral responsibility to ourselves, to god and especially; to the children!
As a Boy Scout leader I am as Pagan or Liberal as they come. I fully think that our Boy Scout organization is on a spiral downward and will make a comeback much like Girl Scouts has over the last 15 years. I do not follow any “book” of values when working with my boys. Just the basic patch guidlines. I teach them moral values and teach them to accept others differences. It is all within the leaders to change the rules and teaching values. This will happen if people will just pull their heads out of their a**es and get more involved. As for those of you that “drop” their boys off to be molested by these horrible men/leaders. My only question is that maybe you should have been there. And for the boys that only have the Boy Scouts as their moral guide, again if more parents like me were involved in the organization we could guide them. Afterall if they cant stop the molesters, they cant stop us!!
Its amazing how uneducated people don’t bother to look into a subject before going into a tirade. Since 1918 it has been against Boy Scout policy for any troop to to be militaristic in nature including wearing camo to a meeting or any scout sponcered event. Any Scout leader refusing to obey this policy can be removed by council. Any scout leader above Scoutmaster has virtualy no contact with the boys in an offical capasity. ALL scout leaders welcome parents to stay during scout meetings and campouts
but that requires commitment which most parents don’t want. If they stayed it would be almost impossible for anyone to abuse a child. I find it incredible that the people who belittle the scouts for not letting gays go on campouts with the boys are the first ones on the soapbox about abuse in scouts! How many of you have ever been to a scout meeting?
I would venture to say none. Go to a couple of meetings and just observe before making a judgement.
Sorry forgot that takes commitment
and it’s easier to just critize. If we are going to ban scouts are you going to ban children under age 14 from contact with women? Statistics say 20% of abused boys in this age group are by women (look it up). What about teachers? We had one in our area that left court for trying to have sex with a child and was arreasted the same day for the same thing. Teacher and child affairs are more common than scoutleaders and scouts. To the guy who claims to be a Scoutmaster maybe you should open your Scoutmaster manuel and read it you might find it useful to learn what you should already know. Even if you had gone thru Scoutmaster basics you would know about ” Youth Protection”. The others are uneducated you have no excuse!!
Bud, you’re assuming a lot.
I went to a fair number of Boy Scout meetings as a kid. I notice you didn’t put any money down on the table; too bad. I noticed, even then, how many of the Scout activities were militaristic. We spent the whole night memorizing various pages of the Scout catechism, and then practicing marching around in formation and getting yelled at in turn. I assumed at first that this was a prelude to something else. When I figured out this was the something else, I gave my own “buh-bye” to the whole affair.
What about projects? Aren’t they supposed to do projects? Our local boy scouts did a paper drive once a year to recycle newspapers and magazines and brought them to the only recycling center some 60 miles away for fundraising. Everyone would save their old papers for the boys scouts. Then they did camping, they rebuilt an old canoe someone donated and patched it with fiberglass, then took trips with it. Someone from the university could identify plants and went on some trips with them–they knew what wild stuff was safe to eat in the woods. They did stuff with knots and could tie anything together and make it stay. The wierdest thing they did was snow camping. I always thought when it was 10 below you were supposed to stay indoors.
Our local boy scouts didn’t do any military stuff. They had handbooks to follow. They did have a pledge of some kind with “God and country” in it, maybe that’s where Jim ran into trouble. Also they had to promise to be clean in thought, word, and deed, something like that, not the sort of thing that would prepare a budding young rabblerouser for writing incendiary political diatribes. Maybe it depends totally on the local leaders whether there is a good experience or bad experience.
Bullshit, Alan. The Boy Scouts of America is now, and always has been, a military feeder organization. The whole thing is structured in a way as to get boys comfortable with the authoritarian structures of military life – from the uniforms to ranks, to little patches as rewards, and obediance, obediance, obediance.
And yes, they kick kids out for saying they don’t believe in God. I know people myself who were not allowed in a TROOP for that reason.
A troop, Alan. They’re forming little boys into troops. Get it?
All I can tell you Ozzie, is how scouting worked in my local area during the 60′s. If you look at their patches, they are not for obediance or warfare, but are for acquiring knowledge.
http://www.meritbadge.com/mb/index.htm
I don’t think you could get kids to stay in an organization like you describe. I don’t personally know of any boy scouts who joined any military service later, the ones who joined boy scouts were usually the smarter kids–those who volunteered to join the military had problems with school and couldn’t make it anywhere else. Oddly enough, few of the Catholic kids joined scouting, they had required religion classes on the day of the week when scouting activities met instead of on the day of the week when the rest of the churches had their activities. They weren’t allowed to join DeMolay either.
I do remember uniforms, but they rarely wore them as they were always fixing that canoe or camping out. The ones in high school helped the smaller ones. No one would have even thought of saying they didn’t believe in God, one local family that was presumed to be atheist had kids in scouts, but didn’t volunteer religious information. Nobody really cared if they were atheist, as long as they didn’t upset people by discussing it.
If you look at the early history of scouting it was all about survival skills.
http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/about/history.html
I also suspect that there was some element, at least in the british organization, of the upper class trying to ‘build character’ in the lower classes and socialize them in a way that didn’t upset the social order. I also suspect the boy scouts will not survive unless they become more inclusive (aren’t there troops with girls now?), or maybe some other group will replace them.
If you think about it in a certain way, it’s an improvement over having the young boys thinking about virgins all the time and getting them to kill themselves for religion.
This is supposed to be the high moral character of Boy Scouting then, Alan: You can be non-Christian, just so long as you keep it a deep dark secret?
I’d rather have my boy thinking about virgins than joining that kind of group.
Well, J clifford, it wasn’t exactly a secret that this family wasn’t exactly religious, after all they didn’t go to church in a town where everybody knew everybody. Their 90-year-old grandfather once told my father, “I think when you die, you just die,” and that didnt’ go over too well. What kind of a thing to say is that, in a place like that where everybody voted for Nixon? People thought well of them, even if their politics was a little out there, but I don’t think Heaven would be quite right without them. It would be pretty upsetting to think of them “just dying” or even going to hell. They just got along with people and didn’t rub everyone’s nose in the idea that they were a little different. Their kids outgrew scouting, and the last time I saw the oldest son he was looking for someone to drop him off at the interstate so he could hitchhike to Woodstock. I don’t think any of them ever became terrorists or decided they could get 99 virgins by killing someone and blowing themselves up.
Scouting isn’t religious and it isn’t military. It’s more about knowing how to survive in the woods. When I want to get away from the city I still take a pup tent into the woods. Good skills to have, I think, knowing how to tie your tent so it doesn’t blow over while you are asleep, how to choose dry firewood, build a fire, cook stuff on a stick or in foil, how to keep your marshmallows away from the raccoons …
“What kind of a thing is that to say”? A bit harsh, isn’t it? I mean, he was just expressing an opinion that did not harm anyone around him in any way. It’s not like he was going around insulting people.
I’m kind of curious to know what you would consider rubbing in people’s noses. A lot of times when I hear something like that, it’s for really innocuous things, like gay couples holding hands or kissing lightly, things that wouldn’t even get a second glance for a straight couple. Should atheists refrain from ever talking about their beliefs? Seems unfair in a world where Christians can say that God has a plan without comment.
For those of you hung up on the uniforms they are intended to make all the boys equal so there is no class distinction or who has the richest wardrobe. As for religon all major religons are accepted. The only
thing scouts require is that you believe in a supreme being by whatever name you call him. They do not endorse any denomination. To Jim if your old Scoutmaster is still involved in scouts please contact the scout offie closest to you so he can removed. I know your perception of things has not changed since you were a child none of ours has. I have only been involved in scouts for the last 20 years so I too have been to my fair share of meetings only mine have been a little more recent. It will only take one phone call I will promise you. Ozzie those patches for obediance are a sign for all to see that he has taken time to become proficent in many areas. Among these authoration structured patches are architecture, cooking, genalogy,and quite a few on nature and first aide. Sounds like an insurgency to me. 90% of ex scouts say they chose the occupation they are in from a Merit Badge they took as a scout. Ozzie if you were injured and bleeding to death would you rather have A Boy Scout come to your aid or one of the boys that you advacate not to get involved in anything? Allen they still do service projects for the community. They also need 13 hours of service to get to Eagle then they have to do an Eagle Project with many going over 100 hours. This is in addition to picking up litter at campsites that many troops do as a chance to beautify America and make it look better after we leave. A concept lost by most ” campers” today.
Bud,
Do they have a Critical Thinking badge? Apparently not.
You believe that the only alternative to being a Boy Scout is doing nothing. That’s a sad perspective on the world, and far out of focus.
What if you say is true, and the Boy Scouts discriminate against children from non-religious families? You think that’s something to be proud of? What about the way that the Scouts encourage people to discriminate against non-heterosexuals? No, I won’t be mixing my kids up with that kind of hateful attitude.
In September of 2004 my wife who was the den leader in my sons pack left me and filed for divorce.
Over the following weeks I found out that she had been having an affair with the pack’s cub scout leader.
As this has progressed to the point where she is now saying they will get married.
This man is 42 years old and never been married or had children of his own. I’ve gone to the cub scouts about this and asked for his removal but been told that in effect that this leader did nothing wrong in as far as his involvment in the cub scouts despite the fast that my son was aware of this affair long before me.
At this point I believe he has molested my oldest son and have had the police formally investigate this allegation but either the leader or my son’s mother told my child in an effort to coerce him into silence that if anything happens to “Mr. Bill” all my son’s friends at school will hate him because everyone loves “Mr. Bill” and hates your father. Several members of the local committee I went to with this situation have tried in concert to have me arrested for harrasment for even bringing this to them and one tried to get me fired from my job. This organization has destroyed my life and my childrens life is going to be a mess and no one there cares enough to even attemptt to limit the damaging aspects of this drama as far it effects my children.
As it stands now my son goes to these meetings every week to learn morals from a man he knows is guilty of adultery with his mother. He doesn’t really know what that is yet but someday he will and he’ll grow up knowing the cub scouts organization has no problem with this. In fact they seem to be very supportive of this man and his involvement with my then wife and their ongoing relationship.
Keep your children away from this organization, period.
Post 13 Kim Says:
As for those of you that “drop†their boys off to be molested by these horrible men/leaders. My only question is that maybe you should have been there.
Post 14 Bud Says:
ALL scout leaders welcome parents to stay during scout meetings and campoutsbut that requires commitment which most parents don’t want. If they stayed it would be almost impossible for anyone to abuse a child..How many of you have ever been to a scout meeting? I would venture to say none. Go to a couple of meetings and just observe before making a judgement.Sorry forgot that takes commitment and it’s easier to just critize.
What utter utter crap.
Blame the parents for their kids being molested at boyscouts?
Shame on you.
I don’t homeschool my kids. Why not? Because there’s plenty of knowledge and skills I don’t have. And even if I knew it all, I’d want my kids to get plenty of different perspectives. So why do parents send their kids to Sunday School, or to Boy Scouts, or to Little League, or to school for that matter? Not to diminish their parental responibility, but to give their kids a chance to spread their wings safely outside of the family environment.
If there is a problem with Boy Scouts of America attracting pedophiles, the fact that parents drop their kids off at scouts does not change the fact that the problem lies with Boy Scouts of America.
Post 25, anonymous, was me.
Good point, Scott. Kim and Bud seem to be saying, “Hey, it was your problem for trusting the Boy Scouts of America in the first place!” This seems to be at odds with their protest that gosh, the Boy Scouts of America is a really nifty outfit.
There are two parts to the Boy Scout problem. The first is public support for an organization that excludes. Scouting used to be a big thing with United Way which a lot of work places pushed for people to contribute to. Back in the 70′s at least, the United Way organizations were all “safe”–no groups doing abortions, for instance.
So what religions are excluded? Buddhaism probably. Hindus? Back when scouting started I bet none of those groups were in the U.S. The same for all the pedophilia. Either it didn’t exist or it was so far undrground that no one talked about it. Scouting just churned along on tradition and worked just fine until our culture started getting more diverse, more complex and more pluralistic. Now the tradition doesn’t work anymore and they don’t know what to do.
The second problem is with the boys and their families. there is still a need for scouting, but it doesn’t fit today’s families. Just think what a great troop leader someone like J clifford would be with his computer experience and environmental focus. Just think if he could teach kids about the environment while out on the hiking trail or around the campfire. If I had kids I would love to have them in his troop. I could relax because I know they wouldn’t be learning hate from him. I don’t know if he is a pervert, but what about background checks, and always having at least two adults present. There must be other like-minded parents who want their kids to have the opportunity of scouting but don’t want the religious hassle or the dangers of not knowing who is with their children. Maybe it’s time for parents like J clifford to get involved in the program and bring it into the 21st century. don’t you guys know how to do any rabblerousing?
Random (#21),
Some kinds of statements take on a different intensity in a small town when you know you will see the person every week for the next 40 years. Context is everything. If I am with Moslems, for instance, they obviously know I’m Christian, but I just listen unless they express curiosity. Some have been extremely concerned that I was going to “burn” since they liked me and wanted to see me in paradise. I prefer to just deal with them as people and emphasize commonalities, not differences.
I don’t care to hear atheists OR christians express their beliefs in social settings. That’s what churches and websites are for. I don’t care to see people, gay or straight, kissing and holding hands either. That’s what closed doors are for. Get a room.
btw, i don’t see any documentation on this, what is your source?
David if the scout leader did molest your son you did the right thing going to the police and hopefully they will castrate him before throwing him in jail. Did they do any tests to confirm if he was molested that should be your right as a parent. Once a report of child molestation is charged it has to be investagated by the police or social services no matter what your wife or Mr. Bill say. I’m sorry your wife left you but spouses leaving for a coworker happens every day in every occupation or place where men and women work together and many of them marry. If it was illeagle there would be a lot of overcrowed jails. A committe can’t file harrassment charges for someone else the cops would just laugh at them. Saying that all Scout leaders condone sexual abuse is the same as saying all teachers, preists, government officals and people who work in large companies ect. know and encourage this behavier. Its not the organization folks its a few bad apples that give it the bad name. More teachers abuse kids each year than Scout leaders why don’t you pull your kids out of school? I recieve wedding invitations, graduation announcements and still get calls from former scouts. Kind of odd don’t you think from a bunch of boys that according to you I must have been molesting. By going to meetings it showes you have an interest in what is going on. I assume that you don’t go to teachers conferences or band parent meetings either because this would restrict their ability to spread their wings. To answer Butch about why Boy Scouts are against homosexuals as leaders. They say they only have sex with adults. Would you let someone who says they are married take your 11 year old daughter camping one weekend every month and one week every year. If you would your braver than I am. If homosexuals were allowed in scouts would you consider it to be a safer place?
Alan,
The committee members didn’t say I was harrassing “Mr. Bill”, they said I was harrassing them because I dared to ask them to remove this man from my childs life in the Cub Scouts out pure decency for his sake. I have spoken with every level of leadership in this organization right up to the president in Texas and found them to be less than interested in my childs welfare and much more interested in protecting the organization.
Let me repeat this, “My son goes to cub scout meetings to learn morals from a man he knows committed adultery with his mother” This has nothing to do with having an affair at a job as far as my child is concerned and this is typical of the responces I have received from the members of the cub scouts organization. My son isn’t going to like this organization much when he grows up and what is he going to think of the morals he’s been taught by someone he knows does not put any value on those teachings?
I’m sorry but this organization puts more value on itself and protecting the adults in it than the children involved. For the record I also went to the cub scouts and told them of the investigation into this mans behavour with my child. By their rules he should have been suspended from interaction with children until the investigation was resolved correct? They didn’t do that.
David,
I don’t know why you’re addressing me since I don’t have children and I didn’t comment on your situation, but since you ask for my two cents worth, here it is.
1)You seem to have a whole box full of issues, and the boy scouts is just a small part of what’s going on.
2)life isn’t fair.
3)deal with it.
First of all, your major issue seems to revolve around some remote, impersonal ten-commandmenty ‘adultery’ thing. The boy scouts is not a governmnet and not a religious organization and not the thought police. It is not their job to ostracize people or to look for and deal with commandment infringments. Even churches say they welcome sinners. Your situation could have happened anywhere, work, school, the democratic party. Even the democratic party considers what happens between bill and hilary to be their own personal business. If you’re looking for someone to mediate between you, get a marriage counselor or a lawyer, depending on the outcome you are looking for.
Second of all, people who are going through a divorce sometimes use their children to fight with each other. You don’t say why you think your son was molested. It doesn’t make sense that your ex’s boyfriend would be hetero with your ex and then look for boys to molest. Taken at face value, it looks like you are trying to position yourself for a custody battle. I wasn’t there and I didn’t see what happened, so i don’t know the truth, but you have to understand how this might look like sour grapes from the outside. And of course, you’re not using your real name becasue you want to protect the privacy of a minor you say was abused, right? And you have provided the national scout organization with a copy of the police report?
If I had a child i thought was being abused, i wouldn’t be muttering about some adultery thing, I would be telling everyone who would listen that my child was in danger, and looking for every ally to get the child out of there. Something tells me it’s not happening at the boy scout meetings, your ex leaves this guy alone with the children?
You also need to somehow acknowledge your own pain in losing your home, marriage, in being deceived by someone you trusted, etc. at least to yourself, in order to be able to fight to keep your relationship with your children. You might think about counseling, either for the child who doesn’t want to talk about what happened, or for the family. If your ex discovered her new sweetheart was a child molester, she wouldn’t be happy anymore, would she? Wouldn’t you protect your own mother from that? Sometimes when the molester moves on to the next younger child, the older child finds out and breaks silence to protect the smaller one.
Peregrin, you didn’t say what your source was. Who announced this? Was there an indictment? What was the official reaction from BSA?
Alan,
I scrolled up to the wrong post to copy the name of the person “bud” who had posted me and copied yours by mistake.
I found my oldest son doing something to his younger brother that deeply concerned me. I asked him if anything like this had ever been done to him and wasn’t satisfied with his responce.
There is nothing to support pedophiles not being interested in adult females but for the record this person has had no relationship with a woman that anyone who knows him can relay to me going back fifteen years. Yes, I have had him professionally investigated.
If I had taken the time to get involved with my son and the cub scouts more than I did I can say without a doubt I would have removed my child from this group after meeting this person. Unfortunately I trusted my ex wife to police my childrens lives far more than I should have. Of course for obvious reasons I was discouraged from going to mettings etc..by the ex wife which I thought was odd at the time but understand now.
I have to state that I have personally seen conduct by “Mr. Bill” that confirms his interest in young children to be sexually motivated. This happened a short time after finding my son doing something to his brother and motivated me to contact the police eventually. Of course I’m the jealous ex husband and seem find more concern with the authoritys as to how I saw this behavour than the behavour itself.
So all I have is the adultery thing to try and limit this mans exposure to my children and other children in the community. That is untill my child tells me this person has raped him and I truly believe that day will come. What a life for me and my kids? This is what the cub scouts has done for me and my two boys by providing this person as a leader.
There really is no way to compare this to work affairs and the like as my children do not go to work with me or my ex to learn morals and pride from either of our boss’s.
Hmm. You know what? If you really care about your kids, you may want to consider NOT using your full name so when they or their friends are googling you 10 years from now they don’t run across you betraying their trust and spewing their private lives all over the ‘Net. Have some sense. Use a pseudonym.
Alan, we obviously have a different set of standards about what’s appropriate in public. With my family and friends, it’s common to get into philosophical discussions, particularly when the wine’s been flowing freely. I was assuming it was in that sort of context that the guy you were talking about said that, which is why I thought it was harsh, especially considering the freedom with which most Christians I know share their views. I hear statements like, “God has a plan” all the time. I’ve had strangers ask me if I try to live up to my name (Christina). Considering all that, it just doesn’t seem fair to me that non-Christians can’t have the same freedom. It’s certainly far less offensive to me to hear a friend tell me that he doesn’t think there’s an afterlife than to hear a stranger shouting on the streetcorner that I’m going to hell because I don’t share their particular view of God. Same with gay people- while you may not like people holding hands and kissing lightly (I’m talking “see you later, honey” type things, not “get a room”) in public, it is acceptable- unless you’re gay. Then it’s rubbing people’s noses in your perversity.
As a person involved with scouting for years now in all levels, I can see that some posting here have scouting backgrounds and others are back seat scouters with opinions. Meaning, that some are not in scouting or once were and now feel they have the ability to critisize BSA, while not really knowing what is going on in most cases.
You should always get involved and stop looking for places to drop off your kids.
If you don’t want the BSA in your child’s life, fine. But don’t do it for the reasons that you are afraid of child molesters or abuse. That is not as common as you think. It just makes the news since BSA is so large. You have a greater chance of something happening at school, the mall or elsewhere than you do at BSA functions that have guidelines and training to keep youth safe. I trust my leaders and I know them. They know me and trust that I will watch their kids on campouts like they watch mine. Safety is always an issue along with privacy. Can you guarantee that when your son spends the night at a friends house, is at school, out with friends? No. They do not have the same rules and guidelines to follow. I keep my leaders in check and they keep me in check. Simple 2 deep leadership rules.
My goal is to allow my boys to experience life before they are on their own in a safe/productive environment. Various opportunies are offered during the BSA program that will not be offered elsewhere. I am proud of what our youth can achieve with this program. My boys have the ability to do various tasks now because of this program. You don’t have to master the subjects at hand, but a general knowledge of different subjects builds a more confident individual.
If I ever feel something is not right, I step up. If you are not able to do the same in real life, then you should be afraid for your family.
I’m adding an update to myituation as it has evolved into a disaster beyond comprehension. Please see my past posts for more background if need be.
Four weeks ago my oldest son stated that his butt hurt and described the pain as feeling like “someone had stuck something long and hard up it”
I went to the police after trying to get his mother, my ex wife, to discuss this with him and hopefully do the right thing if anything needed to be done.
Her responce was to tell my child he shouldn’t remember saying this if anyone asked him and this is why I went to the police.
My ex’s responce was to file a motion limiting my parenting time.
I’ve since learned that she has gone to our childrens physician and told them not to examine my son if I should ever bring him in and obviously the restriction of visitation time was to prevent me from having the child examined by a doctor. Yes this is something I should have done imediately after hearing his complaints but he is my son and I don’t really want to put him through this kind of exam without trying to make sure I’m not getting upset over nothing hence the reason I went to his mother first with this talk.
I went into court and explained the situation as to allready having one investigation done in regards to my son’s cub scout leader and ex wifes boyfriend for what I believe is molesting my son and made them aware I had requested and been granted with great reluctance I must admit by the police another investigation.
The judge gave me a limited amount of credibility in this regards in that my ex has repeatedly asked my youngest son if “Mr. Bill” has touched his butt along with other indications by her that she believes this man is a pedophile.
The judge decided that “Mr. Bill” along with the rest of us including myself, the ex, and the children should submit to court appointed mental exams.
This is the part that is directly relevant to the lack of supervision in the BSA organization in that after informing the Detroit Area Council of this and threatening lawsuits in fact that “Mr. Bill” despite the BSA’s claim of protecting children is in fact protecting “Mr. Bill” by allowing his continued role in the organization to go unfettered.
Let me make this perfectly clear, “Mr. Bill” is being looked at by the judge and the local authoritys and once again the local authoritys as the possible cause of my eight year old sons rectum pain at my request.
I made the Detroit Area Council members aware that there was a court date set for late August on this issue and that the Oakland County Prosecuters also had an interview set for my children during this time period after which of course if nothing came out of this they could revaluate “Mr. Bills” presence in this organization.
Their responce was silence and this person is still a active volunteer in their organization and my sons cub scout leader.
I have actually made a friend in this organization and have been told that removing someone from this group is nearly impossible as this organization does not take abuse of their members children seriously. She has told me that she has had several volunteers removed but only after months of persistant and vocal protests about conduct such as walking around nude in public BSA campgrounds with children present, screaming and shaking the children, threats of physical violence directed at the children, etc………………
Simply put the reality of the BSA seems to be see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil……… and I believe the history of lawsuits against this group shows this to be a realistic assumption of their unwillingness to appropiately police themselves in regards to removing questionable members from interaction with children if even under situations such as mine where I am actively percieved as the jealous ex husband. If this person were a teacher at the local school, a daycare worker, or for petes sake a janitor at Chuck E. Cheese’s he would be out the door in a heart beat but not in the BSA.
All of this is verifiable by court records and I have provided this avenue to the local area council but have as yet seen any action taken on their part nor have they contacted myself.
David