There’s been a great deal of discussion lately, triggered by the claims of James Cameron that the bones of Jesus have been discovered, about whether Jesus ever actually existed at all.
In the interest of furthering that discussion in a serious, fact-based manner, I issue the following challenge: Prove that Jesus existed.
By proof I mean this:
- Provide evidence that Jesus actually lived, and is not just a legendary character
- Prove Jesus really lived beyond a reasonable doubt. That means that a reason-based argument could not refute your proof, not just that most sensible people would agree with you.
- “Scripture” is not to be considered as evidence. After all, what the word “scripture” means is just something that somebody has written. Some people have written that Santa Claus really exists, and that doesn’t make it so.
- Faith and other forms of subjective experience are not proof.
- Failure to accept alternatives to the existence of Jesus is not proof. For example, saying “Well, I can’t imagine what else could have led people to write the Bible and found Christianity” is not finding proof. It’s only showing that you can’t imagine something.
One more reminder for the discussion: The topic is whether it can be proved that Jesus really existed. The topic is not whether it can be proved that Jesus did not exist. That’s a different question.
So, any takers?
The apeist, all kids in your ‘hood’ might dress like black buffoons, but not where I’m from.
The issue is not whether the prissy little rich whitey crackers in your posh, upstate little shithole dress like that with their rags, and it’s not about black people. It’s about whether jesus exists. Got any proof, you little tourette’s syndrome freak?
It’s “The Animist”, phillis freak.
WHEN WILL THE RACIST NIGGER SHARLATON APOLOGIZE TO THE INNOCENT DUKE PLAYERS?????
Make Al apologize, punk.
Now get back to the subject.
What about eye witness accounts? those who wrote the gospels Matthew, Mark, John… they were eyewitness accounts. When the gospels were first circulated there were still those living that could have given denied it or supported it. And many did do both. Or does an eyewitness document not count as evidence?
There is no proof that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John actually wrote the gospels as eyewitness accounts. Unless you have it, in which you are invited to produce that proof. And eyewitness reports commonly contain lies. So, dechapin, first prove who wrote them. Then prove they aren’t lying. Otherwise, you aren’t proving anything.
Also, I’m sure you know as an attentive Christian that the Gospel According to Mark doesn’t even say it’s written by Mark, and that even within Christian circles it’s not thought that Mark, even if he wrote the Gospel of Mark, was an eyewitness.
Jim, did mohammed exist?
Jim’s links match the thinking of the best theologians within my own religious tradition. The consensus is that no one knows who wrote the Gospels. Although Moslems often assert falsely that the gospels were not written down until three or four hundred years after Jesus–in some sort of bizarre attempt to “prove” the “truth” of Mohammed–the gospels were indeed written within the same generation as Jesus. At the time they were written there were most certainly plenty of eyewitnesses still alive.
Hey phillis, I’ll embarass you right now. Do you believe in Jesus?
apeist, you already embarrass me by existing.
Am I christian? Hardly. Are you muslim? Most black apes are these days. You know why? Because a muslim cannot enslave another muslim. And niggers are so inferior that muslims still enslave black ape niggers in afrika.
More nigger embarrassment for you boy.
Answer the question, do you believe in Jesus, trailer trash? Take your head out of the dumpster for a few and answer the question.
didn’t day teach you to read boy?
You know what you call a black doctor?
Nigger!! MUWHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAA
Hey jimbo, you unadulterated asshole did mohammed exist?
So, too stupid to answer a yes or no question. You piece of trailer trash! Ya got my cheese whiz, boy? Hahahaha!
Does Fidel exist? He wasn’t at the May day parade!! Socialist democRATS flags fly at half staff!
Answer the question, wifebeater! Got a belief? Or too scared to admit?
Cheese Whiz, Boy!
I have followed this thread from the beginning. I am a bit disappointed with the digression towards the end but I guess I still can re-visit the issue?
It seems PW set his parameters without taking into consideration that heis asking for evidence of something that happened 2000 years ago; a period of far less technological advancement that the present.
The first issue to PW ‘s challenge is can we prove the existence of any human being that lived 2000 years ago (around the same time of Jesus) within the parameters set?
If it is impossible to do that because of the limited technology available at the time in question then how you do expect we Christians to answer your question?
In science for every test there must be a control experiment.
For instance can PW or anyone else that shares his view prove the existence of any particular human being around the time Jesus lived within these parameters?
This would serve as the control experiment and it will be left for us (Christians) to prove that Jesus existed in the same manner.
If you can do that and we can’t do the same to prove the existence of Jesus in a similar fashion then you have raised a valid point.
Otherwise, since it is not possible to prove within your limiting parameters to prove that anyone who lived 2000 years ago actually existed then you are not being fair to us why ask what you know is not possible.
. It is like asking us to prove scientifically with laboratory apparatus that God is a person? You are asking us to do with Jesus what you know cannot be done with anyone.
The truth is that the closest towards providing proof or establishing the existence of anyone that lived in those days presently would be using the parameters you have ruled out.
PW, have you ever wondered why there are no writings as far back as then challenging the existence of Jesus, side by side the Gospel?
Even if the New Testament that claims the existence of Jesus was written years after he died, why don’t we have other materials written around the same time refuting his existence? Why should it take 2000 years later for someone like PW to raise this issue? Were their no sceptics in existence then?
I like the fact that PW pointed out the bible we Christians believe in makes silly claims such as:
“The fact is that your religion proposes a lot of very silly things, like the idea that there was a boat that carried two of every kind of animal on it, or that bushes can burst into flame and start talking to people. The Bible doesn’t claim that these things are just figurative, any more than it claims that Jesus is just figurative.â€
That is true.
-There are equally a lot of things that seems as silly to me to about this world.
-The fact that there is a Sun that is so useful to man, animals and plants but that it obviously was in existence before any of these livings things and man cannot go anywhere near it let alone explain it existence.
-The fact that man- the most intelligent visible being- is so limited in his knowledge about the existence of the universe that he has to settle for wild guesses and updated opinions as to its existence, when the latter goes on working like a clock, undisturbed, obviously revealing it existence and functionality is in no way dependent upon or limited by the ignorance of man.
- Man can easily explain the source, origin and existence of what man has created, cars, T.V etc but find it difficult to provided simple explanations as to the why of things we apparently have no control over their origin but simply met as co-travellers on earth- including the existence of man himself
The list is endless.
However P.W please note that Jesus existed is not the only silly claim the bible makes ( and we Christians believe) about him. It also claims that He was the son of God, whom the bible claims created all of things (including you and me.) From the bible stand point God is the only person who can explain the above stated poser accurately.
That makes both we who believe the bible and the bible itself sillier or more foolish doesn’t it?
I agree.
Even the bible itself says as much:
(1 Corinthians 1:18)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
(1 Corinthians 1:21)
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
(1 Corinthians 1:25)
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 3:19)
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
(1 Corinthians 1:20)
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
(1 Corinthians 1:27)
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
EVEN MORE SILLIER THE BIBLE CLAIMS AND WE BELIEVE THAT 2000 YEARS AFTER HE LIVED ON EARTH JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD AND IS STILL ALIVE TODAY APPEARING TO WHOM HE WILL!
Now that seems bonkers doesn’t it?
It is by far contrary to the general opinion of man about life and death- (even though we can not explain adequately the concept of life and death also.)
I agree and I still believe it.
The point I am trying to get at PW is if you want prove about Jesus you won’t get it from man. It has to come direct from God or Jesus himself. That is the truth.
If God and Jesus really do exist the way we Christians claim the above should not be difficult. It is only if we our lying and the bible is just mere myth that for God and Jesus proving themselves would be an impossble task.
After all we are talking about God and His son!
Finally PW if you have read this post this far I am going to ask you to perform an experiment that should prove all of the above claims of the bible and your question about whether Jesus existed- if indeed we Christians are right-true.
Here it is. Just before you go to bed this night say the following out clearly:
LORD GOD AND JESUS THAT THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT. IF INDEED YOU BOTH EXIST THE WAY THE BIBLE AND CHRISTIANS CLAIM YOU DO THEN YOU WOULD BE AWARE OF MY CHALLENGE.
JESUS, IF YOU REALLY DO EXIST NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO COME UP WITH THE EVIDENCE THAT I REQUESTED ABOUT YOUR EXISTENCE AND EVEN ONE CHRISTIAN CLAIMS THAT THOUGH THEY BELIEVE, THEY CANNOT PROVE IT.
YOU ARE AWARE THAT I AM BEING SINCERE IN MY HEART ABOUT THIS QUESTION. THEREFORE JESUS IF IT IS TRUE THAT YOU EXISTED AND STILL EXIST AS THE BIBLE AND CHRISTIANS CLAIM, PLEASE PROVE YOURSELF TO ME. IF I GET NO PROOF AFTER ASKING THIS THEN I AM RIGHT TO CONTINUE BELIEIVING THAT JESUS NEVER DID AND STILL DOES NOT EXIST!
HOWEVER, I PROMISE NOT TO LIE ABOUT IT IF YOUR PROOF TO ME IS INFALLABLE.
Pw, After you have done this sincerely if God and Jesus do not provided the proof then come back onto this forum and tell everyone making fun of me in the process.
However please in fairness to us Christians do it before you comment.
The truth is the THE MAIN PROOF OF JESUS WHO WE CHRSTIANS BELIEVE IS JESUS HIMSELF. HE IS NOT DEAD HE IS ALIVE SO LET HIM SPEAK FOR HIMSELF.
(Judges 6:31) And Joash said unto all that stood against him, Will ye plead for Baal? will ye save him? he that will plead for him, let him be put to death whilst it is yet morning: if he be a god, let him plead for himself, because one hath cast down his altar.
(1 Kings 18:36-37) And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
(John 9:20-21) His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
Bode Ayodele
So, Bode Ayodele, like the others, cannot successfully deal with the challenge. Instead, after admitting this, Bode Ayodele tries to make up for this fact by babbling about completely irrelevant Bible verses, and asking me to be a conjurer of spirits.
Bode Ayodele annot prove that Jesus existed.
Anyone else want to try?
Did you do the experiment, Peregrin?
The Bible verses Bode Ayodele posts are not at all irrelevant, although couched in an outdated English translation that is not particularly accurate or intelligible.
I am also very amused by the assertion that “man” is the most intelligent visible being. The men I see are idiots, but good-looking. “Woman” is clearly the most intelligent being.
But Bode Ayodele is entirely correct that an all-powerful God capable of creating an entire universe doesn’t need defending. Isn’t that your argument about the Mohammed cartoons?
Sure, a personal revelation sounds a little weird. Quite frankly, it’s not something we do in our church. But we do recognize the value of personal experience with God. After all, if God and religion can’t be meaningful to ordinary people, then it has outlived its usefulness.
Bode Ayodele is entirely correct. It’s a waste of time to be asking your readers to prove anything about Jesus.
Ask God. Let us know what She says.
Fstdt. Lots of Theological Argument there.
PW,
I think the readers should serve as judge in this matter.
What do you mean by conjuring spirits?
You only conjure the dead. The bible and we Christians make it clear that Jesus is still alive. He rose from the dead after three days and appeared to many. Even one of His disciples, Thomas, that doubted, got the shock of his life when Jesus appeared to him. It is all there in the bible.
He still appears to people till this day.
Why do you feel that such a significant portion of the world still believe in the existence of a person who lived and died (take note he rose again to live forevermore) over 2000 years ago? Do you think the only explanation for this belief (that virtually transcends the entire human race from generation to generation since His birth) is just a mere book? You must be joking.
What of all the miracles and wonders we claim are still performed in the name of Jesus till today? Many have claimed to have had personal experiences with Jesus Himself in this present world. Our belief in Jesus is not limited to what we read in the bible.
You are asking for proof of existence of someone that we claim is still alive and well. What is wrong in asking you to ask Him? Let him prove His existence himself.
Or are you afraid to perform the simple experiment? Is there something deep within you Pereqrin that feels that God might actually exist? That Jesus might actually still be alive and that the moment you are humble enough to ask Him personally He will be loving enough to prove Himself to you?
Whether you really are sincere about finding out whether Jesus really lived or are just bent on rubbishing our claim that Jesus is real – either way, shouldn’t you be willing to try a little experiment to find out?
Though I said man cannot prove -via your limiting parameters- the existence of Jesus, I did not say Jesus cannot prove Himself. As a matter of fact I am sure He has read every post you have written about Him and is waiting for you to ask him personally.
By claiming that Jesus is the son of God, that makes Him God himself.
HE IS NOT A DEAD GOD. HE IS ALIVE PEREGRIN. GO AHEAD AND ASK HIM.
We are waiting for the outcome?
Bode, telling Mr. Wood to ask Jesus if he’s real as “evidence” is subjective opinion at best. You know that little fluttering feeling you get in your chest when you pray? That can be anything from high blood pressure to the beginning of a stroke. The challenge was for scientific/archaeological evidence, not emotions. Provide something other than “feelings” and we might start taking you a little more seriously.
This is a logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Populum (Argument from Popularity). 95% percent of the world could believe that dirt is wet, but that doesn’t mean it is.
Argumentum ad Ignorantiam (Argument from Ignorance). Just because something happens that we can’t explain at first does not make it a supernatural happening. By this logic, the magician pulling the rabbit out of his hat really is supernatural magic.
Circular logic. Asking someone if he exists? What kind of answer are you expecting to get to a question like that? A feeling? How do you know if that feeling is the hand of god or just simple gas?
False dilemma/Straw Man Argument. Did you not stop to think that perhaps Mr. Wood has asked if god exists and did not receive an answer? And don’t ask questions you can easily answer yourself, you prove nothing that way.
You’re shifting the burden of proof. Christians are the ones making the claim that Jesus is still alive today and therefor it is up to said Christians to back up their arguments. And again, “feelings” are not evidence.
So Jesus has the internet? If he knows the question being posed, why doesn’t he just show up anyway? Is he really that lazy, or did his car run out of gas?
Really? I claim that I am the Dark Sex God, does that mean I am the god of sex and darkness?
Again you’re presuming to know the answer when, in fact, he very well could have already asked that and found nothing convincing.
Again, the burden of proof is not on Mr. Wood. He is merely asking you to provide physical, scientific and archaeological evidence to support your claims that Jesus Christ (as described in the bible) actually existed without having to resort to the bible.
Resorting to the bible if another form of circular logic.
“Jesus Christ exists!”
“How do you know?”
“Because it’s in the bible.”
“How do you know it’s true?”
“Because the bible says so.”
Hi Damen,
No one is talking about a fluttering feeling here. If all God can provide as proof to his existence is the fluttering feeling you are referring to I do not think He will have as many adherent worshipers.
Thanks for being more specific about Mr Woods’s parameters: “scientific/archaeological evidence†as I said in post 119 if you can produce similar evidence of the existence of anyone that existed around the same time Jesus lived on earth only then it will it make sense to ask Christians to do same.
As I equally made clear the scientific/technological limitations of man during the period of Jesus sojourn on earth makes it impossible (for man) to prove his existence via such limiting means (scientific/archaeological). The fault is not that of Christians but the limiting knowledge of man at the time. Prove me wrong by showing evidence of someone else – anyone besides Jesus.
As to whether Mr Wood has performed the experiment already, I think that is really for him to tell us, besides, there is nothing wrong asking him to take up the challenge now.
No one is shifting the burden of proof. Christians do not doubt the existence of Jesus. Mr Wood and others who belong to his school of thought probably do. We are comfortable with what we believe and are inviting others who are sincere on knowing why we believe what we do find out why.
The fact that you cannot prove something exist in a particular manner does not mean that it does not exist. That is why the human being has five senses. The fact that you do not see “sound†does not mean it does not exist. It only confirms you cannot detect it with sight. The deaf man that insists you should prove to him that sound exists is only confirming one thing…
From the biblical verses quoted in 119 I made it clear that God does not choose to be detected via scientific/archaeological evidence. Insisting that you can only detect him via such means is like saying you want to detect thin air with a metal detector.
You asked why Jesus doesn’t just show up. Although all things were created through and by Him Jesus does not intrude. He only appears to where he is invited – on one and one basis. This is also made clear in the bible:
Revelations 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
At a point you said I have not proved anything. Actually, I have not tried to prove anything. I said Jesus will provide the proof himself.
I believe the following dialogue will best illustrate the point I am trying to make.
Atheist: Are you sure Mr A lives in that house.
Christian: Yes I am.
Atheist: I don’t believe you, prove it.
Christian: I don’t need to. Walk up to the house, knock politely, and call out his name, You’ll find out whether he lives there or not.
Atheist: No. Tell him to come to my house if he really exists. He does not exist. I will tell the whole world He does not exist.
Christian: I suggest before you go to the world with your story you first of all do what I suggested.
Atheist: I will not walk up to the door and call out his name. My friend that did that the last time left with the impression that Mr A lives there. I do not want that to happen to me. Just prove to me he exists.
Christian: Your friend left with that impression because he had an encounter with Him. You cannot have an encounter with Him and still doubt his existence. I am inviting you to do the …
Atheist: I do not want to have an encounter with him. Just prove to me that he exists.
Christian: How do you want me to do so? I have already told you to walk up and knock on His door.
Atheist: Ok, this is my mobile phone, call him and tell him I would like to speak to him. Or tell him to give me a call.
Christian: Mr A chose not to use a phone. He only honours individuals that pay him a visit…
Atheist: You see what I mean? How can He exist without owning a phone? If he does not own phone he does not exist. I told you I don’t want to pay him a visit. _I’m scared of having that funny feeling- just prove it to me that he exist….He does not exist. I know he does not exist…..
In conclusion Damen, who told you if you invite Jesus into your life today all you will get is a “feeling.†I can assure you; whatever you get it will be more than enough to convince you that Jesus exists. Enough to make you seek him and wish you never made disparaging remarks about him. Enough to make you doubt him no more.
Why not open up to Him? He is knocking on the door of your heart. He is ready to accept you despite all. He knows you more than you know yourself. DAMEN, JESUS WANTS TO VISIT YOU TODAY!
If Damen is claiming to be the Dark Sex God, even in jest, I think he is onto something. If he is getting a “little fluttering feeling” when he prays, if he is not sure whether something is “the hand of god or simple gas”, if maybe he has already asked for divine enlightenment and “did not receive an answer” except for a feeling but thinks that “feelings are not evidence”, then he’d better think again. Numinous experiences are not uncommon, even secular experiences, for example, standing on top of a mountain and feeling at one with the world.
Damen’s problem here is that he’s trying to fit this stuff into a narrow definition instead of accepting the stuff for what it is. Sort of like the problem Jim had with Bob S-K’s book until he stopped trying to fit the book into a particular genre and just accepted it for what it was and went for the ride.
Bode Ayodele has a very specific religious orientation that will make him experience Jesus in a particular way. A Hindu would probably have a numinous experience of Krishna or in some form that is recognizable from his own religious tradition.
If I remember correctly Damen doesn’t have a particular religious orientation, so his experience of the numinous will be more unexpected. If Damen says he is the Dark Sex God, I think he has already been visited, finds God within himself, and understands perfectly well its transcendent nature. Bode Ayodele will probably not agree with me, but think about it, religion is just a way of explaining the unexplainable, so to me Damen’s words ring true even if they don’t fit any organized, documented religious pattern. (Actually they do resonate a bit with the mystic Rumi.) If that’s what Damen experienced, that’s what he has to go by.
Bode Ayodele is entirely correct; Peregrin needs to try what he says and see what happens, go for the ride, but be ready for an answer that doesn’t look like a religion.
Okay, its late so I’m gonna try and respond to some of the most pressing things.
Bode,
Okay, I can give you archaeological evidence for the existence of Julius Caesar. Not only do we have writings from that time about him but we also have corresponding evidence in other nations as well as archaeological evidence from that period of time. We even have a medical procedure named because of him (cesarean section) that is still preformed to this day. Caesar was born in 100 or 102BC and died in 44BC. That’s at least forty years before the supposed birth and death of Jesus.
Julius Caesar was an emperor or Rome and I know you’re gonna tell me that’s different because Jesus was merely a carpenter but I content that anyone who made himself as well known as Jesus would have left more of a record of his existence. So far as I know, outside of the bible and corresponding texts there is no mention of him at all. If I’m wrong about that, please correct me.
Nebkheperure Tutankhamun, 18th Dynasty Egyptian Pharaoh, reigned from 1333BC to 1324 BC. Archaeologists discovered his tomb and his body. Pretty good considering that both were lost for thousands of years.
The only time archaeological is limiting is when the person you’re looking for likely never existed to begin with.
No, you are shifting the burden of proof whether you want to admit that or not. By making the claim that this person existed and was the son of god and then telling those who don’t believe to go out and find the proof themselves shifts the burden of proof from you to them when in fact it is still with the one making the claim to back it up. I can be comfortable believing that triceratops’ actually flew and ate meat but if I told someone else to go out and find out for themselves I’d be laughed at and then brushed off.
A wise man once said; “If you are comfortable with a lie, you will never look for the truth.”
Quite correct but without corresponding evidence then there’s very little reason to believe it does exist.
False analogy. You’re asking me to believe in something that can not be seen, heard, tasted, smelt, or felt. Deaf people know sounds exist by the very nature of human interaction and observation. They can see people talking to eachother even if one’s back is turned and can easily arrive at the conclusion that sound exists. However, I can not see, feel, smell, hear, or taste god nor Jesus. I can not test the existence of god through scientific methods and thus I am required to take it on faith. While its usually considered a fallacy, in this case I have to take absence of proof as proof of absence.
Convenient, don’t you think? No way to test the existence of god, no way to detect him with my usual senses. Why should I believe in a god who feels it nessessary to hide from me?
Alright, I’m gonna share a little story with you. When I was younger I prayed to Jesus and God, didn’t ask for material things but general questions. One of them was “Are you up there?” And you know the response I got?
The runs.
Then why doesn’t he hurry his ass up already?
That little story actually proves nothing except showing someone trying to shift the burden of proof through sheer laziness. “No, you go up and knock, you’re closer to the house than me.”
Besides that its quite childish to equate a guy living in a house with a supernatural entity that can not be detected through the human senses.
It would have to be something that I could not explain through natural events and defies scientific explanation as well as the concept of “coincidence.” I’m still waiting for that but thus far I’m finding more comfort and logic in other gods.
Speaking quite frankly, I find Jesus to be less than ideal. You know, with the whole bit from Luke 12:49-53 (KJV). That’s just an example, though.
Then why didn’t he call me the next morning?
—
Iroquois,
Damn straight. I’m on to the fact that I’m sexy and I damn well know it. (clap your hands)
No, I don’t have to think again when that feeling goes away after I take a couple Tums. Or are you saying that god can’t keep a feeling going when combated by antacids?
All that shows me is that person found a good form of stress relief, not the hand of god.
What, faith? Yeah, I’m gonna need more than that.
Yes, Jim, smile and nod and eventually they’ll go away.
Or they make ordinary occurrences into something they’re not.
Thus far I have yet to experience anything that can not be explained.
No, I don’t find god to be within myself, I find myself to be The Dark Sex God.
Arrogance? You bet, but I’m still sexy as hell.
I happen to agree with you on this statement, but it is also this statement which exemplifies my dissatisfaction with religion. When religion comes in to conflict with the search for accurate information on the way things work and science and knowledge is suppressed in the name of religion then progress and humanity stagnates.
Well, I’ve already my experience in my first response. Did you clap your hands?
Why should anyone try to interpret signs rather than looking for physical evidence? Isn’t that akin to rolling chicken bones in order to navigate across the sea instead of using a map and compass?
Bode Ayodele,
Why haven’t YOU opened your heart to the flying spaghetti monster? He’s really tasty with a good sauce.
How does being the Dark Sex God come in conflict with science? I think it complements science quite nicely. I don’t think you are arrogant at all. But the TUMS are going to give you gas. If you’re looking for the dollar store answer, try 150 mg of Ranitidine. If you want the gold standard, Prilosec is now available over the counter, but if you smoke you will need 40 mg instead of 20.
You are still trying to force your experience into logic straitjackets that don’t fit it. What you see is what you get. It is what it is. If it feels intellectually incomplete or doctrinally unsatisfying in some way, that’s still what it is. Go forth and be sexy as hell.
Did that statement go over your head?
So god is nothing that can’t be explained through scientific discovery?
Oh don’t worry. I rock the sexy day in and day out. It is what I do.
Okay, I preface this with the fact I only skimmed this thread cause of the 100+ responses, and that I do believe in Jesus’s existance, but here it is:
1. The original question (as discussed ad nauseum) is flawed since there’s no way to prove the existance of many historical events without looking at possibly inaccurate written accounts. In the case of Jesus, it would be holy writings. Lets think about Ancient Rome, etc.
2. There is no way to prove Alexander the Great’s existence beyond the certainty provided by written accounts. There is no way to prove Jesus’s existence beyond the certainty of the scriptures, until one’s death (where it will be apparent one way or the others).
3. Very few Christians will claim that they can PROVE that Jesus exists. Many churches maintain very strongly that a degree of FAITH is required to be a believer. If there was a way to PROVE Jesus existed, everyone would become Christian in order to follow God’s will. That’s why, if you read the Bible, there is a very clear message that not everyone will believe, nor will everyone follow God, nor will everyone receive salvation.
The continuation of this discussion is pointless, unless of course there are some people on here who actually believe that Jesus’s existance can be scientifically proven. In which case you should be busy selling the evidence to the Catholic Church instead of posting on here.
1. There’s a great deal of difference between holy writings and historical writings. What you mention doesn’t make the question flawed. It means that some things can be proven and others can’t.
2. If there is no way to prove the historical existence of Jesus, then you’re admitting that you cannot meet the challenge. Why didn’t you just say so?
3. Many, many Christians DO claim that they can prove that Jesus exists.
You don’t seem to like the result of this discussion, and that’s why you find it pointless. You don’t like discussions that don’t lead to results that you like, and you clearly don’t like the lack of proof for your beliefs. The anxiety it excites in you is readily apparent.
Do you apply this same general approach to discussion politics? Dear me.
Damen, Damen, dearheart.
How do you explain your being the Dark Sex God through science? How do you know you are sexy as hell? Can you prove this rationally? No way. The only way to prove this is through the eyes and knowledge of some Sweet Young Thing who adores you. In the same way you prove whether Jesus exists. In the eye of the beholder. Does that mean you are any less sexy? Nope. You know you are sexy as hell. And I believe you are sexy as hell, even though I have never seen you. Gosh, I don’t even know if you are a real person or just a sock puppet. But that doesn’t make your sexiness any less real.
Peregrin, did you try Bode’s experiment yet? How did it go?
It’s not an experiment. Bode uses that scientific word for a non-scientific thing.
What Bode is asking is for a person to START with the presumption of his religious beliefs.
No, I’m not going to do that. That’s not what this challenge is about.
It’s also not what I’m about. I’m not about strange people coming up to me and telling me that they’ve got a wild ride, but I’ve just got to do what they say and trust.
It’s a line used by snake oil salesman. Just try it… It’ll make you feel good…
Give me a break. I can have fantasies, but I don’t forget that the fantasies are not reality.
Has he taken up my challenge to accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster into his heart? Will you take up my challenge to talk to Peter Pan out loud before going to bed each night?
No? Think about why.
Peregrin, I don’t care whether Bode has any presumptions or not. His reasons and theological underpinnings are reasonable enough. Jesus is believed to be alive. People saw Jesus alive after his death and many believe he is alive now. If you’re shy about talking out loud, do you ever sing in the shower? For that matter, Jesus said you could close yourself in your closet and God will hear you in secret.
Somehow I don’t think you’ll get the kind of response Bode seems to think you might get, but it might be interesting.
Was that you with the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Exactly how does that work?
Dammit Fruktaka ya beat me to it.
Well, here goes. Don’t hold your breath…
Bode Adoyele,
I think the readers should serve as judge in this matter.
What do you mean by conjuring Jesus?
You only conjure the gas. The Gospel of the Fyling Speghetti Monster and we Pastafarians believe that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is still alive. He rose from the earth after drinking heavily and appeared to many. Even one of His Pirates, Patchy, that sailed, got all the noodles he could have dreamed of when FSM appeared to him. It is all there in the GOFMS.
He still appears to people to this day.
Why do you feel that such a significant portion of the world pirate population still believe in the existence of a Meatball who lived and ascended (take note he gave us ACTUAL EVIDENCE: PASTA) over many, many years ago? Do you think the only explanation for this belief (that virtually transcends the entire human race from generation to generation since His birth) is just a mere book? You must be joking.
What of all the miracles and wonders we claim are still performed in the name of FSM up until today? Many have claimed to have had personal experiences with FSM and his Noodly Appendages in this present world. Our belief in FSM is not limited to what we read in the GOFSM.
You are asking for proof of existence of someone that we claim is still alive and well. What is wrong in asking you to ask Him? Let him prove His existence himself to you through the magic of pasta and other noodle-based foods. Mmmm.
Or are you afraid to perform the simple experiment? Is there something deep within you Bode that feels that FSM might actually exist? That His Noodly Appendage might actually still be alive and that the moment you are humble enough to ask Him personally He will be loving enough to prove Himself to you?
Whether you really are sincere about finding out whether FSM really lived or are just bent on rubbishing our claim that FSM is real – either way, shouldn’t you be willing to try a little experiment to find out?
Though I said man can so prove -via pasta – the existence of FSM, I did not say FSM cannot prove Himself. As a matter of fact I am sure He has read every post you have written about Him and is waiting for you to ask him personally.
By claiming that FSM kickz major azz n00bz, that makes Him God himself.
HE IS NOT A DEAD GOD. HE IS ALIVE BODE. GO AHEAD AND ASK HIM.
We are waiting for the outcome.
*Gasp, Gasp*
DARK SEX GOD X-ISTS!!!!!1!!!1! B-LIEVE!!!1!!!11!!!!
Animist you are up past your bedtime. You got a free pass on this before because you said it was summer, but I KNOW you have school tomorrow.
I would suggest you take the opportunity of being young to make a serious study of whatever religion your family is into, and when you are older you will have the maturity and experience to choose for yourself.
Oh, hey Animist, what do you think about the stuff they’re saying that Barack Obama’s church is racist?
Hi Damen,
The numerous writings on Julius Caesar don’t count, (remember) so you should not have mentioned them. There is no human being in existence now (or ever) that has had more written about him than Jesus Christ, so if that comes in to play we (Christians) are one point up.
Corresponding evidence in other nations? What kind of corresponding evidence are you referring to- written again? There is no language in the world that has not recorded something about Jesus. There is no nation in the world where monuments have not been built in his name- Churches. When you say other nations how many others are you referring to definitely not China, Hong Kong, Africa or the Middle East?
You wrote about having a medical procedure named because of him, (Caesar) that is still performed till this day. I do not believe that you tried to score on this point. It is like giving me a home run without even asking.
Just a medical procedure? we have an entire religion , that transcends every creed, colour, nation, profession (even the medical profession you referred to) and race named after one man JESUS. All over the world existsthose who have chosen to be named after him by belonging to a religion that he founded- (Christianity).
Now if Jesus never lived then who founded Christianity ( (Did you say Christians? -If you say Christians then, once again validating His existence) on what basis or foundation was Christianity formed?.
If you claim it was a myth based on nothing then who originated the myth on a none existent person? I hope you will not respond by saying Christ himself or Christians again?
Just a medical procedure? We even have the world’s most used calendar based upon His existence. And this calendar did not originate from the bible. Before Christ (BC) and After Death (A.D) is not even mentioned in the bible? The bible does not even talk about the year Jesus was born. All of this originated outside the bible even though you still claim that the only reference to Jesus is found in the bible.
You even used this same calendar to authenticate and refer to the birth of your case study (Julius Caesar). How can you authenticate the existence of a man through reference to the date of birth of another who you believed never lived?
If you are saying that Christ never existed and you are now saying that your Julius Caesar was born 100 or 102 years Before Christ (BC), are you not contradicting your self? It is Christ existed but Caesar was born and died a number of years before him or Christ never existed and Caesar never existed. Period.
Now if you agree that Caesar never existed just because you want to deny the claim of the existence of Christ- then anyone else who you cannot describe his time of birth outside referring to the time of birth of Christ never existed unless Christ existed.
Once again you cannot ascertain the period of birth of someone by referring the time of birth of someone else you claim never existed?
You are talking about leaving more records of evidence. Mind you the bible is only a mere compilation of various books that are relevant to Jesus Christ, written over time. So any book of that time that was relevant to Christ ended up in the bible. If all the books that talk about your Caesar were compiled to together into one volume (called the book of Caesar) and I ask you to provide evidence about him without referring to the volume what will you do?
Mind you, by mentioning Julius Caesar, you are bringing to fore the Caesar Dynasty. (Julio-Claudian family tree) The Julio – Claudian family tree which comprised of Julius Caesar, (102 BC- 44BC) Augustus Caesar,( 27BC-14AD) Tiberius Caesar (14AD-37AD) Nero (54 AD- 68 AD) etc among others is largely established through writings of the bible. In fact Roman history has it that:
“During the reign of Augustus, in Roman Judea, a boy was born who would later have an enormous impact on the Roman Empire and the world. The boy was Jesus Christ. He was crucified during the reign of Tiberius.â€
Mind you this quote is not from the bible.
The history of the Julio – Claudian family tree and the Roman Empire would be incomplete without the mention of Jesus. To a large extent its existence revolved around Him. That is why the Romans never sought to deny His existence like you are doing. They only sought to suppress it – wondering how the existence of a mere “carpenter†could compete and over shadow the dynasty of a generation of Emperors!
You referred to the archaeological evidence of Tutankhamen. Aside the fact that you once again used the date of Christ as a reference (which again either validates our claim of Christ’s existence or invalidates your claim of the existence of Tutankhamen)
That aside, as you pointed out, Tutankhamen unknown for a period of over 3000 years. It is only when British archaeologist Howard Cater discovered his tomb in 1922 that he regained prominence. The name of Jesus has never gone out of circulation since when he was born and never will till the end of the world. If indeed He s a mere myth then he is being discussed about more than any man that has ever lived!
Besides, though Jesus died he rose again after three days. For this purpose His remains can never be found. However, because He was crucified on a cross, the cross itself – a mere instrument of crucifixion prior to when Jesus was crucified – has now been immortalised forever. Many others were killed in a similar manner but are not remembered. Now the cross has become synonymous with Jesus Christ.
Your quote “Deaf people know sounds exist by the very nature of human interaction and observation. They can see people talking to each other even if one’s back is turned and can easily arrive at the conclusion that sound existsâ€
So observation is a form of proof? Thanks for throwing that in.
Your quote is rephrased below:
“ Non- Christians know Christ exists by the very nature of human interaction and observation. They can see Christians going to Church, reading the bible, hear them talking to each other about Jesus Christ and even hear them praying to God through Jesus Christ!. Even if one’s back is turned on the Christ from the foregoing observations one can easily arrive at the conclusion that Christ existâ€
I agree with you unless of course the deaf just want to deny the existence of sound because they cannot hear it!
Your quote. “No, you go up and knock, you’re closer to the house than me.â€
I have knocked several times before and he responded each time. Besides if I knock and tell you what happened, you won’t believe me. You are the ones that doubts, why not try it out and see.
Your quote: “It would have to be something that I could not explain through natural events and defies scientific explanation as well as the concept of “coincidence.â€
That is exactly what you will get if you perform the praying experiment and sincerely invite Jesus into your life. Not just a mere fluttering feeling. This explains why many believe against all odds.
Your quote: “Speaking quite frankly, I find Jesus to be less than ideal. You know, with the whole bit from Luke 12:49-53 (KJV). That’s just an example, though.â€
To get a full concept of who Jesus really you can’t just quote the bible out of context. In what context was that statement made?
Your quote: “Then why didn’t he call me the next morning?
That will be intruding and forcing himself on you. If you personally inviting him though He will show up. As a matter of fact He is earnestly waiting for you to sincerely invite him into your life.
Your quote: “I’m finding more comfort and logic in other gods.â€
That, I can very well see. But that does not mean they are better than Jesus. Why not give Jesus a trial Damen? Throw down your defences and invite him in. You have hardened up your heart to him ever since you were a child. But he still wishes to prove himself to you if only you will open up.
JOHN DAMEN JESUS IS STILL KNOCKING ON THE DOOR OF YOUR HEART. WILL YOU LET HIM COME IN?
Hi Fruktata,
I am not contending the existence of your Flying Spaghetti god. As Christians we know that there are numerous other gods that are worshiped and go by different names.
(Exodus 12:12) For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
(1 Corinthians 8:5) For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
If the name of the god you worship chooses to go by Flying Spaghetti that does not change anything about the creator of heaven and earth.
PW
The word “Experiment†does not have to be limited to science.
The dictionary defines experiment as:
-The act of conducting a controlled test or investigation
-The testing of an idea
-A venture at something new or different
-Try something new, as in order to gain experience
If you claim something does not exist and you refuse to try it out in the manner those that claim it does suggests, then what point are you making to your audience?
Probably one that you just want to argue for arguing sake!
Mr A; I don’t believe touching a live wire will can shock a person.
MR B: Why not try touching one and see.
Mr A: No. I won’t touch it but I still don’t believe it can shock.
Mr B: Look at Mr C over there. He has not stopped lamenting since he touched a live wire. He has even explained in details what he experienced. So have many others like him.
Mr A: I don’t care what Mr C or others say. He could be faking it. Besides I cannot see anything wrong with his fingers. And I still don’t believe.
Mr B:Then why not touch it. Do exactly what MR C did, the way he did it and tell us how it feels.
Mr A: No. I don’t want to touch it. And I won’t rely on what others have said about the experience. Okay, use this piece of plastic to touch it to prove to me that it can shock?
MR B: You cannot detect an electric current with plastic. If you touch it then you can explain to us what you experience. Then others will know whether to agree with you or not.
Mr A: No. I do not want to touch it…..I do not want to touch it.
Mr B: Why?
Mr A: I don’t want to touch it because….er…em…well, I just do not want to touch it …and I am not explaining why…but I still don’t believe it can shock. period!
Observers- ???@@@***
Animist,
I meant readers should serve as a judge between whether I was asking PW to conjure spirits or I was right to ask him to invite a person who he claims never existed but who we Christians claim not only lived but is still alive. What proof do you want more than that:
(Luke 24:5) And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
The writings about Caesar are valid for the fact that there is evidence to back them up. If it was only the writings that gave evidence for his existence there would be a lot of skeptics as to his existence. Caesar was such a powerful figure in the world’s history that it is even written in your own bible that Jesus himself said “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:21). If you want to take the bible as literal truth, that should be enough to validate Caesar’s existence for you.
How about the evidence in every nation that was under Roman rule during and after Caesar’s lifetime?
And given enough time a plague will spread across the globe too. What’s your point?
Do you really think that every church built is in honor of Jesus?
I’m not trying to “score points.” I’m giving you the facts, you’re the one who feels a need to keep a scorecard.
Yes, and it was spread throughout the world with the tip of the sword.
I say christians founded christianity and whether you want to admit it or not that does not validate the existence of Jesus, it merely validates people’s belief in such a character.
Do you not realize that there is a whole area of literature called “fiction” in which stories are told that often have nothing to do with reality?
Humans need some way of being able to differentiate between dates of ancient dates and newer ones. That still does not validate his existence, merely people’s belief.
And by the way I feel I should point out that A.D. does not stand for “After Death” but rather “Anno Domini” which translates to “In the year of our Lord”. If you’re going to point out something that ultimately does nothing to prove the existence of your character then at least you should know exactly what it is you’re using.
Again I must point out that people need for a way to differentiate dates. The current dating system (B.C. – A.D.) is also necessary because the only other way to tell dates would be to track back and find out exactly how long ago the universe began to (at the very least) the second. We do not know how long ago that was so by setting a date after which numbers start increasing rather than decreasing then we have a way of telling time that can go on forever.
False dilemma. Caesar existed, Christ didn’t, and the idea of placing a date for the birth of Christ is merely a placeholder for calender dates to start increasing.
I’ve already sufficiently answered this false dilemma you keep putting forth but I’ll just point one more thing out.
I could have used the dating system of C.E. (Common Era) – B.C.E. (Before Common Era) but I stuck with the classic A.D. – B.C. use of dating for the simple reason that I didn’t want you to misunderstand the dates I was giving.
Firstly, he’s not “my” Caesar. I don’t hold ownership over him. I call Jesus “your Jesus” because I get the feeling you’re gonna start telling me all about your close personal relationship with him.
Secondly, without referencing any writings about Caesar, I can still point you to any museum with artifacts related to him. That’s the key difference between Jesus and Caesar, Caesar has left archaeological evidence for us to find.
Really?! You’re shitting me! Roman history says that and there’s records of this?! This is the whole reason for the original challenge! This could be evidence to support your claim that Jesus really existed! Hot shit! But…how come this is not more well known? Surely such fantastic news would be at the forfront of modern archeology and be virtually a household word?
Deny it? Perish the thought, if you give me sufficient evidence to support your claim that a person named Jesus existed then I will accept that. However you still have the problem of proving that this person was, in fact, the son of a god.
Logical fallacy, addressed above (several times).
Quite correct, but the mere fact is that thus far you’ve still only given examples of stories about Jesus and examples of people’s belief in Jesus, but no evidence proving the existence of Jesus. Tutankhamen might have been lost for the better part of three centuries, but he still left evidence for his existence.
By the way, I’d really like to know more about that part of Roman history you mentioned.
I find myself sitting here quite dumbfounded at the blatant stupidity of that post. Frankly I find myself insulted that you would try to pass off observation of people expressing belief in in a god for evidence that said god exists.
You’ve managed to insult my intelligence and have you insulted me directly by thinking that I would be dumb enough to believe that is valid argument. I find it hard for me to express the depth of the contempt I hold for you without resorting to throwing insults.
You’d have to bring that fellah out to the sidewalk for me to see.
I’ve asked him before and found nothing.
After insulting me in the way you did previously explain to me just why I should spend any more of my time debating with someone who apparently thinks I have the intellect of a preschooler and is so bent on converting me that he refuses to understand the reasons for my disbelief.
I’m going to assume that the homosexual undertones of that remark I made went largely unnoticed.
“Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill, An it harm none do what ye will.”
I never saw a Wiccan text in which the goddess says that unbelievers will be brought before her and slain at her feet. If I was gonna adopt a religion, I’d never adopt one in which the god would willingly kill anyone.
It’s not my defenses I’d have to throw down, it’d have to be my rational and my sanity.
Don’t you dare presume to know what is or isn’t in my heart. Beyond this message board you don’t know me, you’ve never met me, you never will meet me, and you have no idea of how I think or feel so don’t you dare presume to know what’s in my heart.
No. Assuming for a moment that he does exist, he still hasn’t shown me that he’s worthy of my belief.
It has been scientifically proven that I am sexy as hell. A study was done in which random groups of people were assembled, shown photos of my and then their psychical reactions measured.
The results show that I am sexy as hell, unfortunately my glory is often too much for mere mortals to handle and thus the photos were required to be muted before being distributed and then had to be destroyed lest an unwary innocent gazed upon them and fell into an orgasmic coma. The results of the study were also ordered sealed for fear that they might be viewed and people would start to seek out and gaze upon my magnificence.
Even if I were a sock-puppet the only difference that would make would be that people would be falling into orgasmic comas from the incognito Dark Sex God.
Bode is now talking completely out of his faithful armpit. Not only does he claim to know that Jesus exists, in spite a complete lack of evidence, but now he says that he knows what Jesus, the undead zombie messiah, thinks about Damen in particular, and has thought since Damen’s childhood.
Give me a break. Bode has no way of knowing this. It’s a complete fantasy land.
Iroquois,
I am. We have religion classes here, and mass.
BTW, racist against whom?
Peregrin
Of course we know exactly what Jesus Christ thinks personally of Damen. “Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so.” Duh.
Rather amusing that Damen says he doesn’t believe in the Bible but “proves” the existence of Julius Caesar by saying he was in the Bible. If we are going to be accurate about A.D.=anno domini, let’s also be accurate and say “Caesar” is merely a title like President, Emperor, or a word it is related to, Czar (or Kaiser). The Caesar mentioned in the gospel of Luke is Caesar Augustus.
Bode
I too would like to know the name of the Roman historian who might have recorded something about Jesus. Tacitus is the historian of that era whose name immediately comes to mind, and it’s not in his extant works.
When Damen says, “I’ve asked him before and found nothing,” I think we have to accept that. It is reasonable to ask Peregrin to make a similar seeking, especially if he wants to write about the subject and have anyone take him seriously.
Damen
You have not made a scientific case for being sexy. Your “proof” consists of testimonials which no one else has access to. They are indeed proof, and good enough proof for me, (I can feel your cyber-aura vibes from here) but they are not scientific proof–documented and reproducible–and you must distinguish the difference. I think you also know that “sexy” is not just a matter of appearance but has to do with the whole person, but that’s a different discussion…
If the Bible is too subtle for Damen and Peregrin to access spirituality, I think they have found other ways to seek out Jesus Lite (flying spaghetti, Peter Pan, dark sex). A little like trying to subsist on vitamins, but better than nothing. Sexuality has a transcendent character, Peter Pan has a flying motif, as does flying spaghetti, so flying is mentioned twice there, and what is it about spaghetti–taste? The Moslems have a tradition in their architecture of disguising corners and edges with geometrical illusions that turn the mind from the physical world to the metaphysical. In the same way the flying-sexuality-taste themes defy science and turn the mind towards what is not provable in the physical world, but is real nonetheless.
Also consider why Damen and Peregrin have such a sharp reaction against certain Bible verses, even though they can’t explain the context. How do they know there is something wrong with the verses? Even if their verbal explanations are somewhat lacking, they appear to have some basic grounding and instinctive understanding of what is in harmony with the universe and with Christianity. That grounding comes from the living Jesus.
If you go to FSM heaven, you get Endless Beer and Stripper Factories.
If you go to FSM hell, the Beer is Stale, and the Strippers have VD.
Keep in mind this was created by Bobby Henderson, Oregon State Physics Grad to combat intellegent design in schools.
RAmen.
Animist, I do not support underage drinking or irresponsible drinking. Nor do I support sexual predators who exploit someone else’s sexuality for their own financial gain, which if you think about it, is just another form of slavery. If that disgusting bit of trash is the best there is to prove evolution, I’m joining Pat Robertson.
I posted some links about Obama’s church on this thread:
http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2007/09/27/huckabee-brownback-accommodate/#comment-309166
This is genuinely troubling to me because the church website sounds pretty racist to me, but the people commenting on it are scary supremacist hate-group types.
When I said “Roman history†I am actually referring to history written about the Romans. I did not necessarily seek to create the impression that I was quoting a particular Roman Historian alive during the period in question. I got the quote from the following website.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia/roman_2.htm
It is not that there is no archaeological stuff on Jesus, ( A lot of which I have posted below) only that some people find it so difficult to believe the supernatural stuff in the bible that they will go to any length to try to disprove His existence and supportive evidence. Trying to come up with as much stuff as csn for or against physical evidence of Jesus sojourn on earth won’t make any difference. The basis of our firm belief in Jesus is not based on this kind of evidence. And as Damen rightly said none of it proves Him as the son of God. The real proof goes far beyond that- A proof I have been trying to invite you to examine….
Man is made up of spirit soul and body. You cannot detect the existence of God, Angel’s heaven and the Holy Spirit via the physical body. Even the existence of the forces the WICCANS recognise in the elements of the earth cannot be proved scientifically but they exist and that is why so many practise witchcraft today.
But this does not rule out the fact that Jesus is the son of God who died to reconcile all men to the creator.
You can only detect this today through your spirit.
My reason for approaching the argument from my earlier stance is to point out that most of the wide spread belief in Jesus today is not based on Archaeological evidence. And neither is it based on mere fantasy or a mere feeling. If it was I do not think I’ll be a Christian today.
Talking about insults surely by telling me that all I’ll got from inviting Jesus Christ into my life is a mere feeling and fantasy which I considered to be proof of His existence is like telling me I don’t really understand what a feeling or fantasy really is.
It is saying that every Christian is dumb and stupid for believing in a person that never existed when all they have is book, feelings and fantasies to show for it?
That there are not intellectual, rational –minded Christians.
I am saying that if you experience what a lot of us have experienced you would share the same opinion.
As regards records about Jesus information can be found here, part of which I have pasted below
http://sonic.net/sentinel/naij3.html
HISTORICAL RECORDS
Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus recorded information pertaining to Jesus, thus removing the only supporting source for His existence as being in the New Testament. In 115 A.D., Tactius wrote about the great fire in Rome, “Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberious at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths, Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man’s cruelty, that they were being destroyed.”
It is believed by some scholars that Tactius gained his information about Christ from official records, perhaps actual reports written by Pilate. Tactius also wrote about the burning of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. The Christians are mentioned as a group that were connected with these events. “All we can gather from this reference is that Tactius was also aware of the existence of Christians other than in the context of their presence in Rome,” states Habermas. Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian, wrote, “Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the City.” Chrestus is a variant spelling of Christ. Suetonius refers to a wave of riots that broke out in a large Jewish community in Rome during the year 49 A.D. As a result, the Jews were banished from the city.
Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine. He makes two references to Jesus. The first reference is believed associated with the Apostle James. “…he brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” He also wrote, “At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive, accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.” These historical writings predated the Old Testament. Josephus died in 97 A.D.
Before Tacitus, Suetonius or Josephus, Thallus wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus. His writing date to circa 52 A.D. and the passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus’ work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse. Though Christ was not proclaimed a deity until the fourth century, Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, wrote in 112 A.D., two hundred years before the “deity” proclamation, that Christians in Bithynia worshipped Christ.
Two references have been made to a report by Pontius Pilate. The references include Justin Martyr (150 A..D.) and Tetullian (200 A.D.). Both references correspond with the fact that there was an official document in Rome from Pilate. The Pilate report detailed the crucifixion but also reported acts of miracles. Emperor Tiberius acted on Pilate’s report, according to Tertullian, to the Roman Senate. “Tiberius accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from Palestine of events which had clearly shown the truth of Christ’s divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favor of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all accusers of the Christians.”
RECORDED IN THE TALMUD
The Talmud, which consists of Jewish traditions handed down orally from generation to generation, was organized by Rabbi Akiba before his death in 135 A.D. The writings in the Talmud embrace the legal, ritual and exegetical commentaries that have developed right down to contemporary times. In Sanhedrin 43a, reference to Jesus is found. “On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, ‘He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.”If Jesus had been stoned, his death would have been at the hands of the Jews. The fact he was crucified shows that the Romans intervened. The Talmud also speaks of five of Jesus’ disciples and recounts their standing before judges who made individual decisions about each one, deciding that they should be executed. No deaths are recorded.
Other Talmud references to Jesus indicated that Jesus was “treated differently from others who led the people astray, for he was connected with royalty.” These Talmud accounts were written long before the New Testament was assembled. They provide clear evidence that Jesus did live. The Talmud does not embrace Christ as a deity and would have no reason to sanction his existence. The Talmud also states that Jesus was 33 or 34 years old when he died. The risen Christ is the foundation of Christianity. But Christ would have to have lived and died before His resurrection could become an historical factor.
You may visit this website – also pasted in part below;
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Christianity-Church-History-2348/actual-proof-Jesus-existed.htm
The first-century Jewish historian Josephus referred to the stoning of “James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.†(THE JEWISH ANTIQUITIES, JOSEPHUS, BOOK XX, SEC. 200)
Tacitus, a Roman historian who lived during the latter part of the first century C.E., wrote: “Christus [Latin for “Christâ€], from whom the name [Christian] had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.â€â€”THE COMPLETE WORKS OF TACITUS (NEW YORK, 1942), “THE ANNALS,†BOOK 15, PAR. 44.
With reference to early non-Christian historical references to Jesus, THE NEW ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA states: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus “(1976), MACROPÆDIA, VOL. 10, P. 145.
As it did with the Hebrew Scriptures, archaeology has brought to light many interesting artifacts in support of the inspired record contained in the Christian Greek Scriptures.
And this which can be found with a picture of the edit on the following website
http://www.formerthings.com/nazareth_inscription.htm
Edict Of Caesar – The Nazareth Inscription
Matthew 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
History
The Nazareth Inscription is a 24″ x 15″ marble tablet with a 14-line “Edict of Caesar” proscribing capital punishment for tomb-breakers, acquired by the Frohner Collection in 1878 from Nazareth. Michael Green [Man Alive, 1968, p. 36] cites a secular source of early origin that bears testimony to Jesus’ empty tomb.
This piece of evidence is also called the Nazareth Inscription, after the town where it was found. It is an imperial edict, belonging either to the reign of Tiberius (A.D. 14-37) or of Claudius (A.D. 41-54). And it is an invective, backed with heavy sanctions, against meddling around with tombs and graves! It looks very much as if the news of the empty tomb had reached Rome in a garbled form (Pilate would have had to report: and he would obviously have said that the tomb had been rifled). This edict, it seems, is the imperial reaction.
Translation from the Greek by Clyde E. Billington:
EDICT OF CAESAR
2. It is my decision concerning graves and tombs–whoever has made
3. them for the religious observances of parents, or children, or household
4. members–that these remain undistrubed forever. But if anyone legally
5. charges that another person has destroyed, or has in any manner extracted
6. those who have been buried, or has moved with wicked intent those who
7. have been buried to other places, committing a crime against them, or has
8. moved sepulchre-sealing stones, against such a person, I order that a
9. judicial tribunal be created, just as is done concerning the gods in
10. human religious observances, even more so will it be obligatory to treat
11. with honor those who have been entombed. You are absolutely not to
12. allow anyone to move those who have been entombed. But if
13. someone does, I wish that violator to suffer capital punishment under
14. the title of tomb-breaker.
Matthew 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
Matthew 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
Since its original publication in 1930 by M. Franz Cumont, no scholar has published evidence to disprove its authenticity.
Clyde Billington of Northwestern College has dated it to A.D. 41, & interpreted it as evidence for the historicity of Christians preaching the resurrection of Jesus within a decade of His crucifixion.
Scriptures
Matthew 27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
And finally this:
Historical evidence for the existence of Jesus
Overview
There is relatively little recorded about Jesus in the secular history books of his day. But that might be expected as the Roman Empire had little interest in the life of a little known religious leader in one of its occupied territories.
However there is some evidence outside the pages of the Bible for the existence of Jesus.
1. It amounts to some 39 extra-biblical sources.
2. They witness to over one hundred facts concerning the life and teachings of Jesus.
Josephus
The Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, (a.d. 37-a.d. 100) wrote a book called Antiquites which recorded the history of the Jewish people in Palestine from 70 a.d. to 100 a.d. In it he states:
“Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the gentiles.
He was the Christ and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. For he appeared alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.â€
Pliny the Younger
While Pliny the Younger was Emperor of Bythynia in northwestern Turkey he wrote the following to Emperor Trajan in a.d. 112 in Epistles X.96, about the dedication of Christians whom he had been persecuting. He had:
“ … made them curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do.â€
In the same letter he describes the trials of Christians:
“They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang an anthem to Christ as God, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to commit any wicked deed, but to abstain from all fraud, theft, and adultery, never to break their word, or deny a trust when called upon to honor it; after which it was their custom to separate, and then meet again to partake of food, but ordinary and innocent kind.â€
Cornelius Tacitus
Cornelius Tacitus, c a.d. 55-117, an important Roman historian, recorded Nero’s persecution of the Christians, in a.d. 115.
Tacitus also wrote about “Christus†in his Annals Book XV, Chapter 44: a history of the Roman empire.
“Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures Historical evidence for the existence of Jesus on a group of persons already hated by the people for their crimes.
This was the sect known as Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius.
This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again and spread, not merely through Judea, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth.
Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race.â€
Thallus
Thallus, a Samaritan historian, c. a.d. 52, wrote (in a lost work, referred to by Julius Africanus in Chronography, XVIII from the 3rd century) attempting to give a natural explanation for the darkness which occurred at the crucifixion of Jesus.
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.â€
In this he did not deny the existence of Jesus, but only tried to explain away the strange circumstances which surrounded his death, as recorded in Mar_15:33.
Mara-Serapion
In a letter written by Mara-Serapion to his son, c. a.d. 73 he recounts the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras, and Jesus. Referring to Jesus he writes: “What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given.â€
Archaeological discoveries about the New Testament
Overview
Archaeology has played a major role in establishing the New Testament, as well as the Old Testament, as an accurate historical work divinely inspired by God.
There is a great deal of archaeological evidence which supports in general and in detail the account about Jesus as written in the Gospels and about his early followers as recorded in the remainder of the New Testament.
Accuracy of the Gospels
The discoveries of archaeology have supported the accuracy of the four Gospel writers, time and time again.
Herod the murderer
Mat_2:1-23 states that Jesus was born during the reign of wicked King Herod. Matthew records how evil Herod ordered the massacre of all boy toddlers who lived in and around Bethlehem.
Matthew’s portrayal of Herod being a murderer is quite accurate. During his last years on his throne he had the following people killed:
• one of his ten wives,
• three of his own sons,
• a high priest,
• an ex-king, and
• two of his sister’s husbands.
John’s Gospel
It used to be fashionable in some scholarly circles to state that John’s Gospel was not written until the 2nd century and that it contained many inaccurate if not imaginary tales. But archaeological finds have confirmed the accuracy of John’s Gospel.
1. The Sheep Pool
In Joh_5:1-15 it is recorded that Jesus heals a man at the Pool of Bethesda. John describes the pool as having five porticoes.
As such a site could not be found in Jerusalem some concluded that John must be making this up. However, at a depth of 40 feet underground, archaeologists discovered a pool. It has five porticoes.
2. The Pool of Siloam
In Joh_9:7 John mentions, in passing, the Pool of Siloam. The existence of this pool was often disputed until it was unearthed in 1897.
Pontius Pilate
Evidence confirming that Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect (governor) in Palestine in Jesus’ day was unearthed by Antonio Frova, an Italian archaeologist, in Caesarea Maritama in 1961. Fravo uncovered a fragment of a plaque in Jerusalem which bares a Latin inscription about Pilate.
It describes him as: “Pontius Pilatus, Prefect of Judea has dedicated to the Archaeological discoveries about the people of Caesarea a temple in honor of Tiberius.â€
Emperor Tiberius reigned from a.d. 14-37, and Pilot ruled as procurator from a.d. 26-36.
Luke, the accurate historian
We often think of Luke as Paul’s traveling companion and recall that he was called “Luke, the beloved physician†in Col_4:14. He was also an accomplished and meticulously accurate historian.
Archaeological discoveries have rescued Luke from being accused of being a second-rate historian and have vindicated his Gospel and Acts as especially accurate accounts in all they describe.
Sir William Ramsay
Ramsay, the renowned archaeologist, had been schooled into thinking that the New Testament was not a historical document. So when he went to investigate the claims of the Bible in his work in Asia Minor he was greatly surprised by what he found. He records:
“I began with a mind unfavorable to it [Acts], for the ingenuity and apparent completeness of the Tubingen theory had at one time quite convinced me. It did not then in my line of life to investigate the subject minutely; but more recently I found myself often brought into contact with the Book of Acts as an authority for the topography, antiquities, and society of Asia Minor. It was gradually borne in upon me that in various details the narrative showed marvelous truth.â€
Government officials
Luke’s accuracy can be seen in various ways. He manages to name important historical figures with great attention to detail.
It is now agreed that he is accurate even in calling them by the correct titles. Different areas and different countries called their officials by different titles then, just as we do today.
• In Thessalonica Luke correctly refers to politarchs;
• In Ephesus Luke correctly refers to temple wardens;
• In Cyprus Luke correctly refers to a procouncil; and
• In Malta Luke correctly refers to the first man of the island.
The POLITARCHS of Thessalonica
Luke stated in Act_17:5, Act_17:6 that some of the Christian brethren were dragged before the “rulers of the city†KJV (“city authorities†— NASV). This phrase is a translation of the Greek word politarchas. In the whole of the New Testament it occurs only in Act_17:6, Act_17:8.
Some Bible critics claimed that the title politarchas did not refer to the city officials of Thessalonica and that Luke should have been more careful and used the more common words, such as strateegoi (magistrates) and exousiais (authorities).
Such critics believed that they had a cast iron case against the accuracy of Luke as the word politarch used as an official title is not found anywhere else in any Greek literature.
But all this changed when archaeologists dug up records which did refer to politarchas in some cities of Macedonia. Macedonia was the province in which Thessalonica was situated.
Thirty-two inscriptions
There are now 32 inscriptions dated between the 2nd and 3rd centuries in which the term politarchas have been found. Five of these inscriptions have been found in Thessalonica itself. One of these inscriptions was found on an ancient marble arch and it reads: “In the time of Politarchas … .â€
Gallio proconsul of Achaea
Luke states in Act_18:12-17 that Paul was brought before Gallio, the proconsul of Achaea.
This has been confirmed by an archaeological find at Delphi in a letter from Emperor Claudius. Claudius refers to:
“Lucius Junios Gallio, my friend, and the proconsul of Achaia …â€
The Erastus Inscription
One of the paved stones at Corinth bears an inscription concerning one of its city officials by the name of Erastus.
“Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you†writes Paul in Rom_16:23, thus naming Erastus as one of the city treasurers who belonged to the church at Corinth, from where Paul wrote his letter to the Romans.
From Act_19:22 it is clear that Erastus worked closely with Paul and, in Rom_16:23, Erastus, a coworker of Paul, is named the Corinthian city treasurer.
In 1928 archaeologists were excavating a Corinthian theater when they came across the following inscription:
“Erastus in return for his aedilship laid the pavement at his own expense.â€
The pavement was laid in a.d. 50. The designation of treasurer describes the work of a Corinthian aedile.
Publius of Malta
In Act_28:7, Luke mentions a certain Publius, and speaks of him as the chief man on the island of Malta. Many scholars questioned this strange title and wrote it off as being part of Luke’s inaccurate way of reporting. However, inscriptions have now been found on Malta giving Publius the title of “chief/ first man.â€
“In all, Luke names thirty-two countries, fifty-four cities, and nine Archaeological discoveries about the islands without error.â€
A.N. Sherwin-White
“For Acts the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming …. Any attempt to reject its basic historicity must now appear absurd. Roman historians have long taken it for granted.â€
A.N. Sherwin-White
Archaeology and the book of Acts
1. The cultural background in Acts
Lystra
Luke notes that the people of Lystra worshiped gods they called Zeus and Hermes in Act_14:12.
Inscriptions found near Lystra record a dedication to Zeus and Hermes which were made by men with Lycaonian names.
Athens
Luke states that in Athens Paul came across an inscription “to the unknown god.†We now know that there were many such inscriptions on altars in Athens dedicated to “to an unknown god.†2nd century Pausanias, and 3rd century Diogenes Laertes both mentioned such altars to these anonymous deities.
Ephesus
Luke mentions a number of significant features about the city of Ephesus, all of which have been confirmed by archaeological finds.
In Luk_19:18-41 a host of significantly verifiable items are brought to our attention. According to Luke a number of people who practiced sorcery lived in Ephesus, Act_19:19.
It has been confirmed that in ancient times Ephesus was renowned for its sorcery and occultic practices. The phrase Ephesia grammata (“Ephesian scripts or writingsâ€) became a common term in the Greco-Roman world for magical texts.
The city of Ephesus made and sold silver idols dedicated to the goddess Artemis (Diana), Act_19:24, Act_19:25
A number of such idols have been found in Ephesus.
Luke mentions that this goddess Artemis had a temple in Ephesus, Act_19:27
The remains of a temple, measuring 160 feet by 340 feet have been unearthed in Ephesus.
Luke also states that Ephesus had a theater in its city, Act_19:31
A theater almost 500 feet in diameter has been found in Ephesus. It is estimated that it could have seated up to 24,500 people. Inside the theater gold and silver images with inscriptions to Artemis have been found. Some of them weighed as much as 7 pounds.
Quote Unquote
“In Ephesus Paul taught ‘in the school of Tyrannus’; in the city of Socrates he discussed moral questions in the market-place. But the narrative never makes a false step amid all the many details, as the scene changes from city to city; and that is the conclusive proof that it is a picture of real life.â€
Sir William Ramsay
2. Luke’s knowledge of contemporary events
The famine
Luke refers to a severe famine taking place during the reign of Emperor Claudius, Act_11:27, Act_11:28.
Suetonius, a Roman historian who lived at the beginning of the 2nd century, writes about austere conditions in Claudius’ reign caused by, “a scarcity of provisions, occasioned by bad crops for several years.â€
3. Luke’s nautical knowledge and Acts
Luke was a well-educated man and his account of Paul’s journeys in Acts demonstrates that he was well-versed in nautical matters.
Luke’s breath-taking account of a shipwreck in Act_27:1-44 is not only a most exciting story to read but is full of information about boats and sailing that only an observant and informed eyewitness could have recorded.
Rackham says of Act_27:1-44: “the story is told with such a wealth of detail that in all classical literature there is no passage which gives us so much information about the working of an ancient ship.â€
Luke uses precise terminology as he records some of the details of Paul’s sea journey.
For example Luke says, “They sailed under [hyperleusamen] the lee of Cyprus, keeping northwards with a westerly wind on the beam†(Act_27:4); “here they ran before a wind under [hypodramontes] the lee of Clauda†(Act_27:14). In Act_27:14 Luke speaks of a wind of typhoon force, the “northeaster†(euraquilo), which swept down from an island (Crete). The island of Crete has mountains which rise to over 7000 feet. It is still true today that hurricane-like winds suddenly flow down the mountains and cause great difficulties for any passing ships. Speaking of Luke’s accuracy in describing his sea-voyages Robinson Archaeological discoveries about the has written:
“it is to Luke that we owe the most vivid as well as the most accurate account of sea-voyaging that has come down to us from antiquity. Experts in navel science agree that it is without a parallel.â€
4. Historical framework
“In Acts or in that part of Acts which is concerned with the adventures of Paul in Asia Minor and Greece, one is aware all the time of the Hellenistic and Roman setting. The historical framework is exact. In terms of time and place the details are precise and correct. One walks the streets and market-places, the theatres and assemblies of first-century Ephesus or Thessalonica, Corinth or Philippi, with the author of Acts … .The feel and tone of city life is the same as in the descriptions of Strabo and Dio of Prusa … In all these ways Acts takes us on a conducted tour of the Greco-Roman world. The detail is so interwoven with the narrative of the mission as to be inseparable.â€
A.N. Sherwin-White
Seutonius
Suetonius, a court official and annalist under Hadrian, a.d. 120, wrote: “As the Jews were making constant disturbance at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.â€
Luke makes reference to this same expulsion in Act_18:1-2.
Conclusion
It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Luke wrote his Acts in a reliable and trustworthy way, in every respect.
“The present writer takes the view that Luke’s history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness. You may press the words of Luke in a degree beyond any other historian’s and they will stand the keenest scrutiny and the hardest treatment, provided always that the critic knows the subject and does not go beyond the limits of science and of justice.
“Acts may be quoted as a trustworthy historical authority. Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy; he is possessed of the true historic sense; he fixes his mind on the idea and plan that rules in the evolution of history.â€
Sir William Ramsay
NB: WHETHER IT MAKES SENSE TO YOU OR NOT. NONE OF THIS IS ENOUGH TO EXPLAIN THE BELIEF IN JESUS TODAY. NO ARCHELOGICAL EVIDENCE EVER WILL. TO EXPERIENCE JESUS YOU HAVE TO OPEN YOUR HEART TO HIM- OPEN UP YOUR SPIRIT MAN.
JESUS IS KNOCKING ON THE DOOR OF YOUR HEART. LET HIM IN AND HE WILL PROVE TO YOU BEYOND RESONABLE DOUBT THAT HE IS REAL AND LOVES YOU.
WHY NOT TRY JESUS TODAY AND SEE WHAT ALL THE FUSS IS ABOUT?
My point is: It’s not supposed to be serious. It’s a religion parody made to dispute intelligent design and its teaching in schools. I learned about it at wikipedia.
Sounds a bit like black panthers to me, though since they are a private institution they can focus on whatever they want, I guess.
No idea how they can still believe in a God after what happened to us in our past.
BTW, isn’t Cheezus Crust the weirdest name you can think of?
Cheezus Crust
Cheezus Crust
Cheezus Crust
Cheezus Crust
Cheezus Crust
Cheezus Crust
Okay, Animist, I see Flying Spaghetti Monster is supposed to be a parody, thanks. I’m afraid I find it rather sophomoric and misogynistic although it has a slapstick theatrical element too. Too bad something like that was necessary in the first place. For subtlety of thought, I much prefer Discordianism.
Black panthers, hmmm. Obama’s church has NAACP in one of their stained glass windows. Unusual, that. I was in a group once where some Black Panthers spoke to us and they got a pretty cold reception from the African-Americans in the crowd. It seems the NAACP repudiates Black Panthers? Obama’s church was in the middle of all the 60′s turmoil though and was partly a response to black muslim movement.
What did happen to “you” in “your” past? Who is “us”? (For me, as a member of a multi-ethnic church, this is a disconnect. We are taught externals like skin color do not matter because “in Christ there is no east or west”, then the black churches go and teach that race is the only important thing.) I think that is the problem with Obama, a question of who he thinks “us” is. Is “us” America or is his loyalty elsewhere? I happen to think he is a national leader, not a black leader, but his association with this church I just don’t know how to think about.