There’s been a great deal of discussion lately, triggered by the claims of James Cameron that the bones of Jesus have been discovered, about whether Jesus ever actually existed at all.
In the interest of furthering that discussion in a serious, fact-based manner, I issue the following challenge: Prove that Jesus existed.
By proof I mean this:
- Provide evidence that Jesus actually lived, and is not just a legendary character
- Prove Jesus really lived beyond a reasonable doubt. That means that a reason-based argument could not refute your proof, not just that most sensible people would agree with you.
- “Scripture” is not to be considered as evidence. After all, what the word “scripture” means is just something that somebody has written. Some people have written that Santa Claus really exists, and that doesn’t make it so.
- Faith and other forms of subjective experience are not proof.
- Failure to accept alternatives to the existence of Jesus is not proof. For example, saying “Well, I can’t imagine what else could have led people to write the Bible and found Christianity” is not finding proof. It’s only showing that you can’t imagine something.
One more reminder for the discussion: The topic is whether it can be proved that Jesus really existed. The topic is not whether it can be proved that Jesus did not exist. That’s a different question.
So, any takers?
Yeah, imagine that. Who in their right mind would believe something as fact when all they have access to is hearsay at best. I guess it’d require a leap of faith, wouldn’t it?
Don’t equate me with a lower deity like Jesus.
I can freely admit that the context of that quote is lost on me. So please explain, in what context does it become acceptable to turn family members against each other?
Basic concepts like harmony and justice and ethics date back farther than christianity and aren’t even exclusive to the human species. There is a concept called “Interspecies Altruism” and it details animals of one species caring for the welfare of animals from another species.
It requires no leap of faith at all to know you are sexy. I can’t prove it, but I know. So disprove me. You can’t, unless you can prove you are a sock puppet for someone who is female in real life. And I know you’re not female.
Jesus works in mysterious ways.
Yes, because the Black Panthers, apparently, had a history of voilence and some people are opposed to that.
I was talking about apartheid, abduction, and enslavement. What ‘loving’ and ‘caring’ god would let that happen?
Which brings up another point: If god is all-loving, why do we have to fear him? (a.k.a. god-fearing people)
So the only people who can be sexy are females? That’s a rather sexist attitude.
Or maybe Jesus doesn’t exist to begin with and the concept of empathy is a fundamental trait shared by many living things and has nothing to do with any god or gods.
Animist, look up “free will”. People are free to act as they wish, even if it’s nasty. In theory god could force people to act in certain ways, but in reality people are free to choose between good and evil. Evil does not come from god, there are other forces at work here. The Old Testament book of Job goes into the theology of that in more detail–the ancients were concerned about that question too.
The God-”fearing” thing is obviously from a King James Translation of the Bible done some four hundred years ago. The meaning of that word, which today is translated something more like “respect” has changed in 400 years. Jesus said we are to pray “our father”, so that makes us family with God and Jesus.
Damen, no not sexist. Being myself female and quite straight, I can only detect sexiness if there is a Y chromosome present. The point I am trying to make is although you have not scientifically proven your sexiness, it exists nonetheless and I KNOW you are sexy just as I KNOW you are not female. This knowledge is outside of science but is knowledge nonetheless. You could disprove my extra-scientific knowledge by proving you are female, which you cannot do because you aren’t. I KNOW so.
Iroquois,
The scientific study of attractiveness in human appearance is quite a fascinating topic that I first heard about a few years ago. From what I remember, a lot of it had to do with symmetry as far as physical appearance. Personality usually depends on the individual, but a piece of advice I remember is that a little confidence goes a long way.
Here’s an interesting topic: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/376321.stm
I myself know that I am good lookin’ because my physical appearance has been positivly commented on by the majority of those I interact with, both male and female. However, anecdotes of personal experience do not count as proof but in this case merely serve to give a reason as to why I assert that I am sexy.
You’re quite right in that I am a male, though this is not something I’ve ever made a secret of, not here nor anywhere else. And I could give you reasonable examples of my gender, such as photographs and webcam conversations but there would still be doubt as to whether it was really me or a friend of mind talking on my behalf. However doubts like that are the crutch of, for example, people who want to introduce creationism into the science class. It can never be fully proven true, therefor it is by default wrong and I am right.
However, the reason why I brought up my own arrogant views as to my status as The Dark Sex God is to point out that just because someone says that something is so (me being sexy, Jesus being the son of a god) does not make it so.
—
Bode,
I still have trouble seeing any concrete proof as to the existence of Jesus or him being the son of a god. From what I saw of the things you point out you’re basically saying that because the bible makes mention of things that existed at about the same time then that constitutes proof that all of the supernatural stories also written therein are also true. To be frank, that doesn’t follow. The books of Harry Potter make mention of the city of London. London exists, does that mean there’s really a school of witchcraft and wizardry?
And, Bode, you’re frankly starting to remind of bad car salesmen and commercials for used car lots. People like that don’t get others to stop and listen, they tend to piss them off. Your continued attempts at conversion are doing more to drive people away than to get them to pay attention. The only people who’ll stop to listen to you are christians, so in effect you’re preaching to the converted.
Right here I find that you don’t give a damn about anything I might have to say. You don’t give a shit about my personal experiences with your god, you just want another convert so you’ll feel better about the faith you hold.
I don’t believe in the conditional love that your fictional Jesus offers.
Because its much adieu about nothing.
Damen
Divine love is unconditional. That’s why it’s so useful for AA. Alkies tend to burn out their friends. Their spouses tend to leave early, as romantic love is conditional. Sometimes even their own mothers kick them out. But God is always there, grace is always available, and reconciliation is always possible.
I think you would agree that in cyberspace there is no physical appearance, yet I have absolutely no doubt you’re both male and sexy. I know that without talking to your friends. You may have claimed to be the Dark Sex God in jest, but perhaps it’s also a Freudian slip that reveals something about spirituality. It illustrates beautifully my point that there are truths that science cannot address. BTW, although I can sense sexiness, I am myself immune to the vibes. Except for Jim, of course, whose mere shoelaces have the effect of kryptonite, reducing me to a mindless mass of jello. Yeah, it’s that good. For a long time I thought Ralph and Jim were the same person, or one was a sock puppet of the other, but in the end it was my own unconscious reaction that proved to me they were different people–I just don’t get the kryptonite vibes from Ralph.
Bode is correct about opening your heart. On this website there is an incredible amount of peer pressure to call yourself atheist, and the individual who even wishes to be a spiritual seeker will be ostracized. You will not find the truth if your heart is closed. But Bode also should consider the parable of the farmer broadcasting seeds. Some seeds fell on rocks and among weeds and did not produce a crop. Opening the heart is no guarantee of enlightenment.
No its not. Its contingent on whether or not you accept Jesus as your saviour. If you don’t then you go to hell for all eternity. I don’t know of any parent that would damn their child to an eternity of suffering if that kid ends up snubbing them and if such a parent does exist then they’re not fit to be parents.
Its not a slip, nor is it spirituality. Its merely a stated fact.
No, he’s not. If he wasn’t so dead-set on getting a conversion he would have read the part where I said that I tried to believe but found nothing.
But I’ll take it a bit further and be more explicit in my explanation: I find the idea of christianity and Jesus so inherently repulsive as to make me want to vomit. When I think of, for example, wiccan beliefs the feeling I get is the exact opposite.
I’ll call myself whatever I damn well please, be it christian, muslim, pagan, or anything else. From what I’ve seen, on this website it matters very little what you believe so long as you don’t go around screaming at people to convert to your way of thinking like Bode is doing.
The only truth I’ve found is not in religion.
“The fool has said in his heart, there is no God” enough said
Quoting from a book at someone who doesn’t believe in it isn’t going to support your argument nor is it going to validate your position.
And if not believing in a god who’s actions are those of a tyrant and mass murder makes me a fool, then I’ll wear the title of “fool” as a badge of honor.
Damen, whether you choose to believe this now or later, you will believe sometime. and you will most definitely remember all of these conversations you’ve had with people that were only trying to help you see the truth and help you. this is not to validate any position on Christianity. it’s not a Christian’s place to validate Christianity because the truth was already written in the Bible. “Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord.” whoever is reading this right now will either accept Him and inherit all that Jesus wants to give us or reject the idea and choose eternal death. call it what you want to call it, but this is very real for believers or non-believers. you’ve got it all backwards and upside down man, God saw that we were going to go to Hell because we’re imperfect, so He provided a perfect sacrifice (Jesus) so that we WOULDN’T have to go to Hell. He DOESN’T want ANYONE to go to Hell dude. He made you, me, and everybody with a purpose in mind and He just wants to give us our own choice in the matter, or else He would have just created a bunch of mindless droids that worshipped Him in Heaven. He wants to people to choose life, but He’s giving you a choice in the matter. If you choose anything else than to believe that Jesus died for you, then I hope you see at some point in your life that without Him, life is completely without purpose. I’m done here, but please nobody take what I say to be in anger or hurt. It is everyone’s choice to believe or not. To anyone reading this post: If ANYONE wants to be saved, all you have to do is admit that you’re not perfect and accept this free gift of eternal life (He made it simple so He could get everyone to choose life!) by telling Jesus yourself that you’re not perfect and you want to go to Heaven. If you truly believe that simple one-liner when you tell Him, you are saved from Hell and are a Christian. No rituals, no cults, nothing. if anybody seriously has any questions though, don’t hesitate to send me an email @ seraphim9@gmail.com. believers and non-believers are welcome to ask anything.
I’ve never seen a Buddist, Hindu, Wiccan, Rastafarian, etc. try to convert anyone. Christians do.
There is safety in numbers, meaning that if you go around in a brown nesquik bunny suit, you’ll (probably) feel less embarassed if others do it too. Maybe Christians try to convert because they’re afraid of standing alone. They, perhaps, are not secure in their faith. I don’t think it’s the religion, I think it’s the crusading that makes people feel pretty pissed off.
If gd is almighty, then he has control over everything. Including evil. Or are you saying that there are other god-powerful beings out there? BLASPHEMY!!! The christian religion states that there is only one god. So he must have control over everything, including the food supply that feeds (or doesn’t) the starving children, mothers, fathers, etc. of Africa and other places that are impoverished. He is a major-league dickhead because he lets them starve. If you say ‘that is man’s doing, not god’s', consider the ‘fact’ that god is almighty. Control over everything. Including food supplies.
Or maybe he just isn’t strong enough. Not stronger than the devil? Maybe not.
If he truly wants people to know and acknowledge him, why not come back down to earth and show us all? Or battle the devil in front of us. That’d make good pay-per-view.
I feel that Bode’s behavior can be taken as antagonistic, typing in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS TELLING OTHERS TO CONVERT and not listening to reasons for disbelief.
I’ve also found some interesting things about calender dates. For example, previously, I didn’t know that the months of July and August were named for Julius Caesar and Caesar Augustus. And I also didn’t know that for a long time the Romans used the Julian Calendar which used a dating method called Post-Consular Dating. And I also didn’t know that it wasn’t until Dionysius Exiguus came up with the idea of using the Anno Domini dating method that the method started coming into use. That was about 525 years after the supposed birth and death of Jesus. Anno Domini was then incorporated into the Gregorian Calendar, named after Pope Gregory XIII.
Imagine that, christians came up with the concept of dating starting from the birth if Jesus Christ.
Hi Damen,
Remember I said from the onset that proving the existence of Jesus can only be done by Jesus himself. In this regard I was not actually trying to convert you based on anything I have written.
The objective of my last post was to: 1) Indicate that there is a lot of extra biblical material that attests to the once existence of Jesus on earth (even though most of it is derogatory, expressing views that are un-Christian) as seen in the first part.
2) To point out that the bible has been established by archaeologists as a veritable source of history. There have even been instances where Archaeologists have worked from the bible only to admit that the bible aided their discovery. And these are not Christians!
I agree that this does not again provide the proof you are seeking for. But it makes a point anyhow.
Damen, it is not true that I don’t give a hoot about your personal experience as regards the issue at stake. And I do appreciate what you may feel. It is only that I am convinced, like I said, that if you experience what many others have experienced you will surely see things differently.
A person who claims Jesus appeared to him and performed a miracle in his life or took him to heaven will not doubt for a second Jesus lives!
Do you get my point?
That I am trying to convert you is not the issue. Even if you eventually accept Jesus I cannot claim to have done it. Those who believe because others believe are not being sincere with themselves. Unless one has a personal relationship with God, as Iroquois pointed out, such faith may not stand the test of time.
I do not expect you to say ha-ha there’s the evidence I now believe. I know it will take something beyond the natural to convert you, and believe me Damen, there are people WHO HAVE HAD SUCH EXPERIENCES!
: As regards the stuff on Harry Potter, I feel that’s an area we should not even venture into because we are bound to disagree. I do believe in the existence of witchcraft and wizardry schools and although I see Harry Potter as fiction, my opinion is the objective behind the book it is to get children interested and involved in both subjects. As you know the bible refers to witchcraft and strongly condemns it. Thus it will thus be wrong for true Christians to believe otherwise.
I understand that you may not see it from that perspective. I was just trying to point it out.
Well John, take good care of yourself, and remember the invitation is forever open.
Bye
Just before I sign off…
NB: Just read the last three comments. Damen, I did take note what you said about trying before. My opinion was I felt you were more sincere about your beliefs on the issue and that is why I took the time to go deeper. Not actually to convert you but:
1)To let you probably see reasons as to why some of us believe so strongly.
2) To see whether you might agree to try again considering, if I am not mistaken, that you said you had the experience when you were young.
Would you believe that I once took my bible kicked it into the air after praying for a dead child who did not come back to life and screamed out to God that if He wanted me to serve Him He would actually have to prove Himself to me beyond the contents of a mere book!
He did!
But I will never expect anyone to be convinced based on my personal experience with God as I was not converted based on anyone else personal experience and neither could have been.
I share the opinion that faith is a personal thing. I don’t believe in the bandwagon stuff.
Besides, Damen, out of all the posts I read against the existence of Jesus on this site I sincerely considered yours the most honest and sincere. That is why I took my time to share my heart.
Why should you believe something just because everyone else does if you’re not convinced about it?
And as far as I am concerned personal conviction can only via a personal experience.
Damen,
Just read you last post (162)…
Never intended to come across as antagonistic…though it may have seemed so but as explained above I was not insensitive to your reasons for disbelief—only maybe I did not try to address it early enough -my fault- sorry for that …
My use of capital letters was just to emphasise, not to shout in your face. Sorry again if the latter is what seemed to be the most likely.
And I feel we have all learnt a lot from this discussion board- Like I learnt (or was reminded) not to forget that AD does not mean After Death-(wonder where I got that from?)
Animist,
The reason why Christians preach is because the bible says so.
And as Iroquois pointed out earlier God made us as moral agents giving us the opportunity to chose….And he does not intend to force himself on us or even the devil that chose to fight against Him.
Now, I hope I get to post this before something else I may want to responds to comes up………………………
Bode,
Right, but that again brings us back to the original topic which was scientific proof of his existence. Personally, I have no trouble believing that at one point in time there was a Jesus of Nazareth and I can accept that as a decent probability just given the sheer numbers of humans and human names throughout time. Even by laws of chance you will eventually get a “Jesus” from antiquity. But without some form of proof of the claims made by both the bible and the claims made by christians, I can not accept that he was the son of a god.
Undoubtedly just given the fact that the bible was written at a time when the things sought by archaeologists were contemporary events.
I’ll give you an example of what I mean. The Dark Tower series of books are written by Stephen King and detail the happens of a gunslinger from a parallel universe. In these books, this gunslinger will make a number of trips into our universe for various reasons. In the sixth Dark Tower Book, “Song of Susannah” one of the characters speculates of the World Trade Centers collapsing.
This book was written in 2004 and this event takes place in 1999. Now, a future archaeologist can look at this book alone and eventually figure out where the old World Trade Center was located. But that alone does not lend credit to the other supernatural aspects of that book.
But as I also indicated, this is something I’ve tried and I was left wanting.
Of course, but do you see my point? Without proof or evidence to back up those claims, if this person told that to me I would find him to be, at least, delusional.
Others, but I’m not one of them.
I see those books as something to help get kids interested in reading. And even if they were written with the goal of getting kids interested in witchcraft I still don’t see anything wrong with that as the main characters do not use their abilities to hurt others unless provoked.
And besides that, what’s so bad about exposing people to new ideas?
Of course. Exodus 22:18. It was an offense punishable by death. But after a small bit of looking I found the Hebrew word used in that original passage; “chasaph” actually means “poisoner”.
So Exodus 22:18 goes from:
“Thou shall not suffer a witch to live.”
to:
“Thou shall not suffer a poisoner to live.”
Makes a bit more sense when you consider the eye-for-an-eye era in which the bible was written. Just something to keep in mind when dealing with texts that have been translated as much as the bible has.
I didn’t have the experience. As a kid, I prayed, asked Jesus and god to watch over my friends and family, asked general questions. But I never had an experience, I never felt the presence of a god. All I felt was nothing.
Ever since then, in all these years, I still haven’t felt anything.
If you’re telling me this dead child came back to life, then no, I wouldn’t believe it.
And I can appreciate that, thank you.
Apology accepted.
When it comes to the internet, typing in all caps is the text equivalent of shouting. If you want to emphasize your meaning then type “text here” with no spaces.
Easy mistake to make, I couldn’t remember the Latin words either until I looked them up.
I want to close this by sharing something else with you, Bode.
In all honesty, I’m closer to calling myself a pagan than anything else (barring atheist) because every time I read about paganism or Wicca it puts me at ease. During rough times in my life I would reflect on pagan teachings and I would find solace in pagan objects and I was better for it. I’ve listened to Wiccan music and have looked often at pagan and Celtic artwork. I ponder the meanings and implications of the Goddess and the Horned God and there have been times when the thought of those two deities put me at ease.
Recently I was gifted a pentacle necklace made of silver from a dear friend of mine who has taught me a lot about paganism. Since I’ve received it it has rarely left my person and if I took it off it was always within an arm’s reach. If I start feeling stressed, I touch it and it works as a stress reliever.
My objective and intellectual views on gods are one thing, but I can freely admit that I have, at times, found comfort in pagan ideals.
When I ponder the existence of the biblical god I do not find the comfort I’ve felt when I turn my thoughts to the Goddess.
I rarely talk to anyone about my spirituality, but I tell you this in the hope that you can understand and accept that while I do not believe in the existence of supernatural all-powerful beings, that does not mean I have not tried.
One of the earliest things I’ve learned about Wicca is that no one path is the right one. Each path should be chosen by the individual. Christianity is what works for you, but it doesn’t work for everyone.
If you come across an atheist or a member of another religion, don’t become so involved in following biblical teachings that you don’t stop to consider that if they’ve heard about your god and have found comfort elsewhere then they likely won’t convert to christianity. Adoption of a religion has to come in its own good time.
Maybe there will be a day when I fully embrace pagan teachings, maybe not. But even if I had every bit of physical, emotional, scientific, and archaeological evidence for the existence of the biblical god, and even if he came to me himself and had a chat with me and told me himself that everything in the bible was true, I still can not find it within myself to worship him. I can not do that for the simple fact of what I’ve read in the bible.
Seems this thing is more sensitive than I thought.
If you want to emphasize your words, then type (i)”Text here”(/i) and substitute “” for the “(” and “)” signs.
Third time. Because its not showing up, just hit shift and the “,” key to get that little sideways V (open end to the right) and then sift and “.” to get the other symbol. Make sure the openings are facing together.
For anyone who has been looking for Bode’s historical citations, they have now appeared way back in the thread in post #146–probably got stuck in moderation for a awhile.
There is probably a larger connection between Christianity and Wicca than is obvious. If you stop to think about it, women were present at every major event in Jesus’ life. They were at the food of the cross and they were first in the tomb when everyone else ran away. They traveled with Jesus in his teaching. Some scholars equate Jesus tradition with the Tammuz rituals, but it is very clear to me the Sermon on the Mount is original material and not connected to Tammuz.
The Old Testament also mentions King Saul consulting the witch of Endor.
The one problem I have with Wicca as a “religion” is that it is not an unbroken tradition. Technically it is neopagan, and has been completely invented using historical fragments. How is it any different from new age psychobabble? Still, there is probably some truth in it and some comfort. What did Jesus say about new prophets, “by their fruits you will know them”. An evil tree does not bear good fruit.
ALL CAPS is usually considered to be shouting and not courteous for blogging. It’s easier to understand codes in a chart. Here is a list of codes, not all of them are always active on comment pages, but you can usually use “i” for italics and “strong” for boldface. If you want to see more about how to use a particular code, you can click on the code.
http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/quicklist.html
“1. There’s a great deal of difference between holy writings and historical writings. What you mention doesn’t make the question flawed. It means that some things can be proven and others can’t.”
No, the question is flawed. There is no difference between holy writings and historical writings except the fact that people find insight into God through “holy writings”. The Bible is a historical writing, much like Herodotus. The Bible has the added bonus of also being a holy writing. You said scripture can’t be used. If scripture can’t be used then the entire above discussion is pointless, because without the historical writing of the Bible there would probably be almost *NO* believers today.
“2. If there is no way to prove the historical existence of Jesus, then you’re admitting that you cannot meet the challenge. Why didn’t you just say so?”
Without the use of historical writings it is impossible to come close to proving the existance of someone from 2000+ years ago. It is impossible to literally PROVE the existance of anyone historical without the use of historical writings. I didn’t just say “I can’t prove it” because it’s important to point out that the only reason why the “proof” isn’t sufficient for you is because you’ve created an impossible situation.
”
3. Many, many Christians DO claim that they can prove that Jesus exists.
”
Well if miracles, visions, and historical writings aren’t enough, then it’s a matter of what you consider to be “proof” and not the actual proving. Not to mention that when asked to prove Jesus exists, I tend to believe that the only true way to do it is to prove his divine existance, which does require faith (since he lived 2000 years ago)
“You don’t seem to like the result of this discussion, and that’s why you find it pointless. You don’t like discussions that don’t lead to results that you like, and you clearly don’t like the lack of proof for your beliefs. The anxiety it excites in you is readily apparent. ”
Yes, i’m sure logical and fact based writing shows anxiety. The discussion is pointless because your post makes it impossible for anyone to meet your standard of proof because you remove all evidence from the time period. Additionally, the only person here who is against discussions that lead to results that are not liked is you. You create dilemmas/challenges which are impossible to end in a conclusion other than the one you want (the non existance of Jesus) because of the rules you place on the challenge.
“Do you apply this same general approach to discussion politics? Dear me.”"
Additionally, in the political discussions on just war, you’d rather ignore an actual discussion about the activities of US troops versus those of Iran, and create posts about John Stuart Mill instead of actually admitting that maybe you were out of line in equating Iranians who create instability and civilian casualties to US troops who are trying to prevent such casualties (even if they may cause some). Again, transcribing your anxiety on to me is not a proper method of discussion.
Damen,
No the baby did not come back to life, which is not what I meant. God proved himself to me through other means outside my mere reading of the bible.
I think we both strongly agree on one point- historical evidence will never prove that Jesus is the son of God. That’s why I was trying to steer clear of going down that lane. I knew that if it was even established beyond reasonable doubt the next question would be “now what about the other claims of the bible.â€
Thanks for sharing your heart with me on the subject- and for the advise on blogging.
Iroquois
Thanks also for the website, I found it useful and earmarked it for future reference.
I can not directly prove that Jesus existed and neither can anyone else. But if you’re simply implying that just because Jesus can not be directly proven means that he doesn’t exists is a terrible assumption on your part and that would make you a hypocrite due to the following assertion:
On the same grounds that you beleive that you’re great great great great grandfather was real even though you have no solid evidence such as a picture or his writtings does NOT not mean that he never existed. You see, if youre great great great great grandfather never existed, neither would you. The Christian Church is living testimony and a result of his existance which is a cause and effect like you and your ancestors.
Also you’re very contradicting!!!! You say that heresay such as quotes from Josepheus, Tacitus, Paul, or Pliny the Younger can not serve as evidence because they were not first hand witnesses? Well did you not get your information about “Jesus not existing” from articles written by atheists who got it from some historian who got it from some guy whom you never met that wrote about it? Did you do the discovery yourself or are you relying on someone elses work? How do you know that those historians are in fact correct!!!!
Things like Antinuetrinos today are held as a fact. Has anyone actually seen an antinuetrino before? No, not at all and the only reason why you confirm that they are true is because you probably read it in a science article from some writer who got that information from a professor passed down to him from some scientist whom you dont even know but yet you beleive it is true.
Gravity has never been seen and the nature of it is still being discovered yet it is considered a fact. Just like Jesus, he may not be proven directly but you know he’s real by the effects such as the effects of Gravity.
Oh, well, Hercules, you know that just because I can’t prove that there is an invisible weightless dragon living on your head doesn’t mean that there isn’t one. To imply that there isn’t an invisible weightless dragon living on your head would be a terrible assumption that would make you a hypocrite.
You won’t accept the Bible writings as factual although the Bible is a compilation of accounts from several different authers during different periods. Just because it is bound into one book doesn’t make all these writers co-conspirators in an attempt to make everyone treat everyone else nice. I mean.. that’s just a terrible idea!
I have a comic book collection that is a compilation of accounts from several different authors during different periods.
Must be factual.
I understand what you are asking for but there is no proof. That is where faith comes in. Jesus is the word. He is actually the bible in person form. The bible says that Jesus is the word of God. So the bible isn’t just some book. Jesus proved that by explaining things people had questions about. His spirit moves in those who believe by faith. The whole point is He who believes without proof will enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus actually was there with these people 2000 years ago and they kept demanding “proof”, but most still didn’t believe. But believe me everyone will eventually know the truth in the end. Personally I would rather not worry about my freedoms being taken away here on earth and focus more on getting into heaven through God’s son Jesus, Emmanuel(God with us), or the many other names he is called. He is the only way into heaven. In other words if you want to “live” forever you will choose to follow Him and believe. It won’t be living in the way we live now. There won’t be all of the sin and movies and popstars and wars or sickness or anything. But I personally plan on following Jesus while I am here on earth and enjoy what human life has to offer, but I am much happier knowing that I will be saved and won’t be tossed into the fire and burn forever until you are no more, like you never existed. Into nothingness, but believe me once your burning in that fire I bet you will be wishing you had paid closer attention to the gospel of Jesus and what God had to say about it. He loves us all and wants all of us to be with Him in the end, but he also gave us free will to do with what we wish. I would hate to die and come before judgement and not find my name written in the Lambs book of life. Knowing that all I had to do was just believe and accept it on faith that God sent His son to die for our sins and pay our penalty of eternal death for us. Everyone will die once, but only the sons and daughters of Jesus(God) will escape the second death. Yeah I know this is way off the subject, but I will pray for you and if God really wants you and you really want Him you will believe any one who reads this. YOu are important to God and have many things to offer Him and He will give you a new spiritual body and eternal life with Him. It is up to you because of the Free will thing. Oh and to Laurie O who remarked about getting all of her rights taken away because of Jesus, Well like I said everyone is going to die some day atleast once, so what does it really matter how many rights you have as a woman or man? I pray that you will come to the conclusion to atleast give Jesus a try. How come people care so much about what they will have for maybe 100 yrs at most and then die? When you should be trying to live like Jesus and give this life completely to him or else burn in fire forever. I mean do you want 100 years of freedom, which most people don’t even live that long anyways or would you rather believe in our creator and die once and then live forever? YOur choice. Free will remember, but believe me at judgement everything every sin will be brought up before Jesus who died on a cross for all people you and me included and felt every sin in the world. Just remember everytime you sin Jesus felt it on the cross while he was hanging there dying for everyone and paying the price for your sins if you would just ask him into your life. That had to be hard feeling everyones sins in the form of pain and death and knowing full well that not everyone would believe and be grateful for the sacrifice. No wonder he’s gonna toss all of yall to the fire if you caused Him so much pain and dont even have the decency to thank him and believe and accept his gift. I’d throw ya to the fire too. anyways, God will always be, but we won’t unless we accept the gift of Jesus Christ and his gift of the payment of our sins because God is just and justice must prevail and personally I have sinned a lot and am very proud that Jesus paid the debt of fire and death for me. I am perfectly happy to follow him and not have to pay the penalty for sin myself. It’s kinda like a get out of jail free card. someone else has paid all you have to do is accept it and be greatful.
Snore.
All writings on the subject of the historical Jesus date to after his alleged death — most by decades, as with the Gospels. Even Josephus was not a contemporary, having been born around 37 AD.
The Romans were as meticulous as they were ruthless — fit to rival the SS. So where was Yeshua Bar-Yusef in the Roman records?
I think Jesus was a composite character. Messianic myths are common among conquered peoples, and Jerusalem was probably up to its eyeballs in ‘messiahs’ during the Roman occupancy.
Nor does the crucifixion story particularly impress me — thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of people were butchered thusly. I find it almost funny to think that, if he lived at all, then he was murdered by the Religious Right of his day.
Well there is proof that he did exist, but whether he actually did his miracles are a totally different subject. Numerous Roman and Jewish texts state Jesus in synchronous events. Even a ancient Roman historian of that time who absolutely hated Jesus stated about him in his texts. Now he was really a man but how the bible put him, his birth, how he was born, etc etc etc was easily fake.
Hi everyone,
I took a break for a while but I stumbled on a few videos on the linked website below. This, I believe- should provide answers for those who are still asking for proof that Jesus existed. Please watch the five of them and read the stories before commenting.
Not only will they prove that he existed-they will prove that He still exists and that proof shall be found in your heart.
Hope to hear from you soon- and better still to meet you in heaven.
sorry, the link for post 177 is:
http://www.dreamsandvisions.com/English/
I also forgot to include my name.
By the way what happened to Damen,Iroquois and of course Peregrin Wood, the person that actually started this thread?
Jesus ate them.
I’m always skeptical of second-hand testimonials, if the conversions from Islam shown on the website did actually take place, it would be very dangerous for the person converting. Moslems would consider them to be “kayfir” and some would feel scripturally justified in killing them for converting.
Peregrin is always around, I think he is related–probably a younger brother–to the other irregular writers. Damen hasn’t written any diaries here or updated his deviantart page lately. I just posted in the diaries something about Marcus Borg that I’m reading, along with some lengthy quotations.
According to End Time Propheces say that the end times will come when churches and religons are judge up on and that Jesus will come back then let us forget our churches and religons.
If it’s true what End Time Propheces say then Jesus will come at that time then it’s true about his existence and the end of our generation in our life time.
The only way we’re going to know for sure is to let go of everything we have just learnt from Bibles.
I’m not religous nor go to Church. Don’t have to believe in such things.
It’s for your own good.
Well it may not be the fact that Jesus will return in physical form.
Don’t know how a dead man can come back to life.
I’m just beginning to believe that the End Times could happen when Jesus tomb is found and evidence of his existence not there. That could mean what the Bible is saying about
The Second Coming.
Judging up on is the finding of Jesus tomb to realise that it’s not a legendary figure and
the Second Coming could be when Jesus bones has been found.
And all will be confirmed.
The question is is James Cameron Jesus himself in a reincarnation is that how he found Jesus tomb?
Now the real big question is if Jesus never existed then does this modern man generation really exist cause at one time we never existed ourselfs.
Even though we imagine our selfs to exist is it really true that we do exist?
I dare you to question that.
Anonymous, I can understand, with your unwillingness to share your name here, that you may question your own existence. A person without a name may not have much of an identity to notice. However, I’d like to know from you more about how you believe that a lack of evidence that Jesus ever existed actually confirms the story told by the Bible, even if you don’t exist..
Message For J Clifford
Well the confirmation of Jesus ever existed won’t probably confirm the story of the Bible.
Wasn’t actually saying it will confirm the truth that Jesus ever existed literally.
Just that if Jesus never existed then what’s the point in having Churches and Wars against religons? What’s the Wars against religons got to do with people’s believes of Jesus if he never existed.
What I’m saying is that if Jesus never existed then the Wars was for nothing and laws about how christianity should be behaved and not allowed to do something cause of them been christians then it’s been a waste of time. Bloodshead for nothing. Loss of life for nothing such a waste if it’s true that Jesus never existed.
I’m not a christian.
Isn’t that what Tony Blair went to war for to try and bring Armageddon for The Second Coming.
Then if this is true and that Jesus doesn’t exist that’s what I’m trying to say.
I’ll say this and this only. YOU WILL NEVER EVER EVER find proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus lived. If it were available, we would be faced with the NECESSITY
NEWSFLASH!!!! YOU WILL NEVER EVER EVER find proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus lived. If it were available, we would be faced with the NECESSITY to worship Him, and not the CHOICE. God is not a god who will force you to believe in Him. He’s even said that this belief is NOT for everyone. I have to point out to you and everyone else, that Jesus said he would NOT show a faithless generation any sign or miracle (MARK 8:12). Jesus has nothing to prove to us. His life and death is chronicled in the Bible, it’s your choice whether to believe or not believe… Just like it’s your choice whether or not to vote… Your parents didn’t have to prove their existence to you for you to believe in them. Do you believe Christopher Columbus existed? What about William Shakespeare?
I’ll venture to say the reason you’re having such a hard time with the whole Jesus thing is not because you believe in the “separation of religion and state†but really because you’re living out a life that is not pleasing to God and you’re offended that anyone would dare to challenge your morals.
You don’t hear me though…
The wonders and mysteries of heaven are treasures that are to be treasured, and they are only revealed to those who believe. You will never see them (even if someone finds the long lost fully intact journal of Pontius Pilate.) unless by some miracle you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.
Call me what you want… say I’m brainwashed, and cultic till the cows come home and take a nap, I’ll still love you, and pray that God give you a seed of faith that would allow you to be saved from an eternal death.
No, Cledet. Even if there was proof that Jesus actually existed, and wasn’t just a legendary figure like Hercules or Odysseus, I would not be “faced with the necessity to worship him”.
I could, and would, say no. I don’t worship other human beings as if they are divine beings.
Another thing, Cledet. You don’t love me. I think it’s really creepy that you say you do. You don’t even know me. If you think that you love me, you don’t understand what love is.
i dont get it cledet, if god doesnt want to force you to believe in it, why are there people saying how i doomed to enternal sorrow and pain if i dont? why is a good hearted atheist considered a heathen, yet a child molesting priest is still considered good by the christian standard and even protected by the church? if god doesnt want you to worship it, why is not worshiping thought of as one of the greatest sins.
as far as jesus goes, i think he was just some poor guy who was basically born in the right place at the right time. there was the story of being born to a virgin mother, but maybe the mother didnt want to be labeled a whore so what better way to avoid that stigma than proclaiming her being pregnant as this glorious miracle. and the star and all that, you’d be suprised how things around you appear in certain states of mind, next time your depressed or looking for an answer to something go step outside and look at the night sky, you’d be suprised how much of everything going on around you looks like its reflecting someway to what your feeling and thinking, a naive mind is more powerful than people give credit to.
Anyone who truly wants to examine the Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence that “proves” the existance of Jesus needs to read “The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict,” by Josh McDowell. Published by Nelson Publishers. It’s nearly 700 pages of historical evidence that includes the testimony of antagonistic witnesses such as Roman pagans, Roman governors, and Jewish Historians who were contemporary with the lives of Jesus and His Apostles.
Can you actually cite any of that supposed evidence that proves the existence of Jesus, Greg? All you’ve done is say that there is a book somewhere that has the evidence. That’s not very convincing.
I could easily say that I have a book, “The Kangaroo Truth”, that contains 800 pages of historical evidence that includes the testimony of physicians and zookeepers, proving that you are actually a hopping marsupial. That wouldn’t make it true.
Show us the proof, Greg. Don’t say that someone else somewhere has it. That’s a Dick Cheney tactic.
That was pretty mean, JClifford. Looks to me like Mr. Spencer was helping you rather sincerely with your research question. Why don’t you google the book–that is, if YOU are sincerely interested in the question you have posed.
Cornelius Tacitus, Annals XV,44. Lucian of Samosata “The Death of Peregrine, 11-13. Suetonius Suetonius< Life of Claudius, 24.4 also Lives of the Caesars,23.2. Pliny the Younger, Epistles X.96. Thallus and Phlegon as quoted by Julianus Africanus from the third book of his histories in Chronography 18.1. Mara Bar-Serapion, Epistle. The Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 43a, t. sanh.10:11, sanh. 7:12, b. san. 67a, y.san.7:16 b. sanh. 107b: t. Sabb. 11:15: b. sabb 194b.: b. Sota 47a Josephus ben Mattathias Antiquities, XVIII, 33 All of the above were pagans or Jewish writings all antagonistic toward Christianity. All can be found free on the internet or ordered at any bookstore. The fact that these ancient documents that were contemporary with the apostolic church all admit the existance of a poor Jewish man who never wrote a book, owned property, or traveled more than 100 miles from his native village. Who was executed as a criminal in an obscure part of the Roman Empire, yet whose teachings were believed and preached to cultures that were hostile to it, who persecuted believers, yet could not stop its spread. The only explanation that makes sense admits that Jesus did indeed live and that his influence was, for lack of a better term, miraculous. To retype the full body of these citations is not practical in a forum like this.
Greg – The sources cited are cherry picked from an enormous wealth of messianic literature at the time. Pliny, The Lives of the Caesars and Tacitus all mention “Christ”, which means “Anointed”. The Jewish messiah prophecy was well known at the time, and widely discussed within the mediterranean community. None specifically mention “Jesus” by name or deeds.
The various Talmudic sources form part of the framework of the continuing re-examination by hassidic scholarship of the messianic prophecies. Sources can be found for messiah like figures from Joseph (of technicolour dreamcoat fame) almost to the present day.
Josephus has been widely discredited from around 1750 (probably before but much before that anyone discrediting official christian history tended to meet a fiery end along with their writings)
At this present time I can’t actually source this stuff as accurately as you can – I don’t have any books which try to prove J’s non-existence. I have just read widely.
One thing I can do however, is recommend you read the so-called “lost gospels” (available online), a collection of gospels which the original catholic church purged from the bible for various reasons.
The provenance of the gospels is without doubt (they were part of an archaeological find in a monastery in egypt) and they paint an interesting picture of the many conflicting pieces of allegorical literature out of which the bible as we know it today was assembled. They also show clearly how the early church fathers, in their choice of gospels, chose power and domination over love and respect.
The original challenge was to prove that Jesus existed using fact based historical evidence but to the exclusion of “Scripture,” ( Which is historical evidence itself.) This I have done. You are incorrect in your “facts” when you say that at the time of Christ there was an enormous wealth of messianic literature. At that time, Judea was an insignificant frontier province of Rome. Its people were so volatile concerning their religion that Rome was forced to tolerate it, however the Jews were looked down upon and had little respect in the Roman world. Apart from the Jewish Sciptures and the deuterocanonical books there was little if any messianic literature at the time of Christ. The Talmud and the Mishna were not yet written and since the Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ and became an “outlaw religion” after the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.,their literature was not widely read outside the Jewish community.
The messianic prophesies of the Old Testament established a criterion by which Israel could identify the Christ when he came. History tells us many false Messiahs appeared and attempted to establish kingdoms but God did not intervene in their behalf and they did not fulfill the prophesies of the Old Testament writings, They were put to death and their followers scattered. Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled over 330 prophetic statements from the Jewish Scriptures and his teachings, miraculous works, death, resurrection, and continued spiritual presence in the Apostolic and post Apostolic Church produced a growing number of believers who were willing to face persecution and death rather than deny the Christ.
As for the validity of Josephus, he was not a Christian and did not write Christian history. The authenticity of his text is beyond criticism. I always find it interesting when ancient authorities are challenged by contemporary scholars who have no contradictory historical evidence of more veracity, yet maintain they are authorities concerning something that happened 1000 or more years ago.
Some of Josephus’ historical and scientific facts from beyond his generation may be questioned but he is a valid historical reference for those events that were contemporary to his life time of which he was an eye witness.
The Apostles and their disciples wrote the New Testament documents, which were faithfully copied and published during their life times. Both internal and external evidence support this. The Ante-Nicean Church Fathers cited and quoted these writings extensively as authoritative and never quoted and cited any others. Their writings span the first three centuries of the Church. During that time Christianity was an underground religion. To confess Christ or to be in possession of the writings of the Apostles resulted in arrest torture and death. Only the authentic writings of the Apostles were worth the risk of dying for. Long before anything like the Catholic or the Orthodox church existed the Church fathers validated those writings that were universally recognized as authentic to meet the challenge of spurious writings that were being introduced.
Concerning the “lost gospels,” I believe you are referring to the Gnostic Literature discovered at Nag Hammadi around 1945. I have read them all. It is well known they were the product of the Gnostic sect of the Church. This literature was unknown to the Apostolic and Post Apostolic fathers. They are dated between 350 and 400 A.D. The earliest evidence of their existence may be inferred by the writings of Irenaeus 180 A.D who wrote, “”They boast that they possess more gospels than there really are.”
The Apostolic Fathers never cited them as authority and never refuted their teaching , which they certainly would have done if they existed in their time. They are fanciful literature clearly not written by the authors attached to them and inventions of human imagination. Yet for all this they are built on the undeniable existence of a man named Jesus of Nazareth who they claim was the founder of their sect. So in an obtuse way they also are ancient testaments to the historical reality of Jesus.
In closing you can’t source your material because it doesn’t exist. Your arguments are based on hearsay not historical evidence. Jesus of Nazareth existed. The writings of his Apostoles show it, the writings of the Ante-Nicean Fathers show it, The testimony of Jewish and pagan contemporary writers show it, and the very existence of the Church through 300 years of persecution and 2000 years of corruption show that even today those who seek him still find him. I have, he exists.
AS i was reading the main page it saying no one meet the challenge I have to say I do not agree.
many people prove It.
Now lets take logical and common sense.
People say the Nt was written hundreds of years after Jesus some put this evidence he did not exist Because none of the writings on in the lifetimes of the people who claim to live in that time.
First if anyone ever heard The teaching of the 12? it was a christian sect during 90 ad.
They quoting scripture that is The same scriptures we have today during that time period of 90ad.
WE have clement who is in The gospels being called friend of the apostles.
there are many writings of Him that did not make the cannon.
We have the Book of Barabbas that dating to 70ad which is agree to might be the same One as in scripture.
if Jesus did not exist you would Think The logical The evidence would come from hundreds of years later not in The time-line the people who claim to witness jesus life which is in scripture and outside of It.
so in ending to say something is a myth I would think it would take time to for it to circle around before anyone would accpet it.
For something base on facts as in eye witness you would think you would find people that confirm what the gospels say who lived during the recordings.
we find just that people confirming what the gospels say during who lived during the time-line of there recordings.
Everything you ever needed to know about the Historical Jesus:
http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html
I am not versed in historical or religious documents to a great degree. I came upon this web site in a quest to discover why my son, who was raised Christian, now questions the existence of Jesus and the faith he was raised in. What I have read here confirms the warnings in the bible that in the last days precisely this line of thinking will take over.
But, in my using the bible in this text, is exactly what this site will throw back in my face. Yet, I wonder how this book of writings has existed for so long, and is believed by so many people, if it is not in some way true. Many other ancient writings and texts depict stories similar to the writings of the bible. In my mind, that in itself shows that ‘something’ is behind it all. Unless, of course, so many people of different cultures and beliefs all dreamed up the same stories.
Then, there is the fact that in this universe, man has yet to discover an end to it. Even if they did, what is there beyond that end? You can’t have ‘nothingness’ – because even nothingness has to have an end. In the simple minds that we the human race have to work with, we lack the ability to comprehend things beyond what we can see, feel, smell or touch. We and our planet are less than a speck of the total. And in the same respect, is there an end to the smaller degree of things? And again, in that respect, if there are so many directions of bigger and smaller, that lays the path open for the possibility of endless ‘possibilities’ of existence and happenings. Perhaps the truth lies in ‘what each person believes in is true for that person.’
I ‘choose’ to believe in Jesus. I cannot prove Him to you or anyone. That proof has to come to you through your own mind and heart. I am not trying to ‘preach’ to you to believe in Him. That would be futile. He has shown himself to me in a small miracle of the past – one that you would laugh at and refute, as I have no proof of that miracle. Only I know it is true, as I was the only one witness to it.
Perhaps, for those who do not believe in God or Jesus, there is none, and there will be nothing after death.
Perhaps, for all the other religions around the world, their particular beliefs are true.
But for myself, I choose to believe – because of the simple “What if?” – What if their really is a God?. . What if Jesus is precisely what the scriptures claim He was. . I choose to not endanger my soul. .
While most Christians are taught that Jesus created the Christian religion, this is not so. The people who created Christianity are the people who wrote the scriptures. It is commonly accepted that the gospels were written sometime after 70 CE. The question is, Why did it take so long? A lot happened during this period in this corner of the world.
First we have the Pisonian Conspiracy in which members of the the powerful Roman Piso family conspire to assassinate the Emperor Nero and to create a new Jewish religion to compete with the Jewish religion of the Messianic Jewish Movement. They are discovered and executed.
Next we have Apollonius of Tyana making 2 trips to India. On his first trip he receives 9 manuscripts in Taxila which form the basis for the 9 Pauline Epistles. On his second trip to farther India he receives 4 documents about the seasons of life of the Indian Christ of the Tamil people which form the basis for the 4 gospels. It is interesting that the Pauline Epistles are the earliest Chistian writings and make no reference to Jesus of Nazareth. Neither do other early writngs such as ‘The Shepherd of Hermes’ or ‘The Epistle of Barnabas.’ The reason for this is that these texts were written prior to the time when the gospels were written. Now, we know that the Epistles of Paul supposedly date back to the 50s. Therefore, as of that decade no one had ever heard of Jesus of Nazareth.
It is only during the last decade of the first century and the beginning of the second that Jesus Christ is mentioned in quotes from St. Ignatius of Antioch and Clement of Rome. They mention his name, but know little about him. It was also at this time that the famous apologetics quotes from Suetonius and Tacitus were actually written. This is also the time that Josephus wrote the infamous ‘Testimonium Flavianum.’ All of these quotes were written after the gospels had already been composed.
So, there you have it. Prior the gospels being written there is not one single mention of Jesus Christ. Only after the gospels were written do we hear the name Jesus Christ mentioned. To learn more about how the Romans subverted the teachings of Yeshu and the Nazoreans and proclaimed them the revelations of their godman Jesus Christ visit: Nazoreans