The last, most desperate, line of criticism of Barack Obama for some has been that, although Obama has good ideas, he just wouldn’t be the right choice for the Democratic presidential nomination because he could never get “the white vote”.
I hate this idea of “the white vote”. It puts me into the same voting class as George W. Bush and Pat Robertson. There is no white vote.
Even outside of politics, the idea of race is full of holes. People of good sense have known that for generations, even before Mark Twain wrote “Pudd’nhead Wilson”. Lots of supposedly “white people” have significant amounts of ancestry from places like Africa, Asia or the Americas (before Columbus tried to make slaves out of everyone he could find over here). The reverse is true for “blacks”. Barack Obama is an easy example of that, but he’s certainly not the only one. And what is this idea of “non-Hispanic whites” or “non-Jewish whites”? It all makes no sense.
But do you want to play the race game? Do you want to try to make the argument that Barack Obama just can’t be President because he isn’t white enough to get the support of white voters?
Okay, let’s play. According to exit polls in Virginia yesterday, Barack Obama got the majority of support from voters who identified themselves as “white” – five percent more than Hillary Clinton did.
While we’re dealing with the idea of lumping people all together so as to discount them, the gender thing isn’t a factor either. Barack Obama got the support of 60 percent of female voters in Virginia.
Virginia is just one example of people forgetting about their ethnicity, forgetting about the ethnicity of the candidate, and just voting for who they think would make the better candidate.
White people won’t vote for Barack Obama? Yes we can… but can we stop calling ourselves white? Stop being white?
White supremacists have gone around calling people like me “race traitors”. I respond with this: If you think that the tone of your skin and the geographical location of your ancestors is the most important thing about your identity, you’re a brain traitor.
Im an American of European ancestry, and I plan on voting for Obama. By the way, if I must belong to a “race” – I’ll consider myself a member of the “human” one.
I wonder how many black families are having the discussion about whether they could vote for a white person.
The last I heard, the discussion in that part of town was about whether Obama was “black enough”.
Black people have been voting for white presidential candidates ever since they’ve been able to vote.
No, they haven’t. It’s one of the reasons blacks have no political currency in this country. Everyone knows they don’t vote.
Jesse Jackson can walk into a politician’s office and say “I can create a disturbance here, I can create an outraged public outcry there if I don’t get some concessions, but he can’t say he can deliver votes.
On the other hand, women have been voting for men for a long time.
Why don’t we ever see any articles here about whether the country is ready to vote for a woman president?
Oh, and I notice Jclifford doesn’t volunteer whether the whites voting for Obama in Virginia were male or female. Not even a link. Hmmm.
“Why don’t we ever see any articles here about whether the country is ready to vote for a woman president?”
Because you’ve closed your stubborn eyes to them, Iroquois. Why don’t you try opening them, and looking around Irregular Times again?
Blacks don’t vote. Really. I’ll have to tell that to my black friends. I’ll tell them you said so. They must not really be black, because I know they vote. It must be all shoe polish. I’ll tell them that too. Or do you mean something else?
You don’t ever see any articles here about whether the country is ready to vote for a woman president because Obama surrogates aren’t saying that the country isn’t ready for a woman president. Clinton surrogates, on the other hand, ARE saying that country isn’t ready for a black president. See Rendell, Ed for just the latest example. So that needs to be responded to.
You seem awfully interested in turning this into a game of “are you going to choose the black man or the white woman?” I would like to suggest 1) that’s a game nobody is going to win, since it turns into an inevitable result of some sort of assumed bigotry or another. 2) it’s reductionist. Hillary Clinton is more than her ovaries and Barack Obama is more than his skin. Why do you want to pay attention to just ovaries and skin? Why aren’t you interested in policy? 3) it’s a trivial form of nominal representation, in which by gum and golly the fate of all women rests on the election of Hillary Clinton and the fate of all blacks rests on the election of Barack Obama.
Ovaries or skin? What a bad way to make a choice for president.
Oh, right, J. Clifford reminds me that we actually have written a fair lot about that. Righty right! I mean, I even wrote an article about it myself. Instituted the Hillary Clinton “Bitch” Watch to out the sexists who can’t hack a strong woman candidate. Or as I put it then:
“The point I was trying to make (and maybe didn’t make sufficiently clear) is that much of the conservative opposition to Clinton is based on hatred of a woman who clearly has drive, ambition and intelligence. In their world, the combination merits the insult “bitch.—
Thanks for the reminder that yes, we have been writing about this, J. Clifford.
This is akin to your bizarre claim yesterday that we only use the word “whine” to describe women, when that is demonstrably untrue.
Please be more careful before you spout assertions.
Iroquois, are you trying to be absurd? In earlier comments, you said Barack Obama could only win because a lot of black people voted for him.
Now, you say that black people don’t vote.
Huh?
Oh, Jim excuse me all to pieces, you also use the word “whine” to describe right wing religious fanatics and internet trolls. Do you really judge me and other progressive women in the same category as that? And you have to go back to March of 2006 to find something either one of you has written about gender politics? TWO YEARS AGO???
Oh, but all these people are saying things about Obama being black and how that’s so awful. Uh, who? I’ve asked for links on this before and no one seems to come up with them. Maybe if you just repeat it enough times without proof, people will think it’s really true.
On the other hand, if you look at the exit polls, you will see blacks voting predominately for Obama. Isn’t that identity politics? Aren’t you going to question whether all those blacks are really prejudiced? Make a few pithy statements about women being part of the human race? No, you’re not about to agree with that idea.
What about all the white guys voting for Obama? Isn’t that identity politics? Aren’t you going to write some snide comments about the guys who go to Hillary’s events and hold up signs that say “iron my shirt”.
I’m starting to see a pattern here.
Who DOES iron your shirts?
I know who mixes your Koolaid.
You’ll also notice that on alternate Fridays, I use more of the letter F than of the letter J, and we all know what THAT means! I don’t think I need to say anything more about that.
I have refrained from using the letter F, but not because I’m not thinking it.
There are those who believe you do use the letter J, but I don’t see a problem with that unless you are blogging at the same time.
I can see that you used the word “refrained,” which contains a lot of vowels, which in PBS’ THE LETTER PEOPLE were all women letters. Why do you hate me?
HEY IROQUOIS, I am a man and I would LOVE to vote for a woman. I seriously appreciate women who are strong, smart, and ambitious. However, I won’t vote for Hillary Clinton, not because she has a vagina, but because she represents the worst of politicians who take special interest money. I can’t beleive that she’s in it for the people. Iroquois – you need to get over this girls against boys mentality – it doesn’t make you look very smart or secure in your own gender.
Oh, and by the way, I iron my own shirts. And incidently, I also iron my wife’s shirts – only because she’s no good with an iron. Imagine, a woman who’s no good with an iron??
IDENTITY POLITICS – hmmm I am a “white” man who is going to vote for a democrat. According to IDENTITY logic, if I vote for Clinton, I am a racist for not voting for the “black” man. If I vote for Obama, then I must be sexist who thinks the best place for women is in the kitchen.
What would you have me do dear Iroquois? I hear that McCain might be best served to choose Condi Rice as VP. Would you then have me then vote republican so I can vote for a woman and a “black” at the same time??
Clear this up for me, cause I thought I was going to vote on the ISSUES.
OH (whine), all these ISSUES are making me tired. I must have ISSUE FATIGUE. This is where I start making choices according to my gender, income, marital status etc. I couldn’t possibly THINK about who may be the best choice for our country cuz Im just so darn tired of those issues. Golly, when will this election thingy be over so I can go back to thinking about what to watch on TV.
Jim try this exercise. Write down all the derogatory words you can think of for women, then write down all the derogatory words you can think of for men. I’ll give you the rest of the exercise when I get back form class.
and while we’re at it, lets make a list of all the words we can think of for penis and vagina. And then we’ll really have something!!??
Notice that when Iroquois can’t formulate a reasonable response, she changes the subject to something that makes no sense at all.
This is a real lesson for me. Some people just don’t want to give up their racial identity. For me, it doesn’t do anything for me, it doesn’t describe who I am, and it certainly doesn’t describe who I want to be.
I reject the “white” label, and that’s a large part of what the article is about. A significant portion of the American population is moving in this direction, and another portion is desperately resisting it. That’s a struggle within the Democratic Party as much as it is between the Democratic and Republican Party.
For some people racial identity doesn’t make sense. For others, a world without racial identity doesn’t make sense.
jClifford, while you are telling white people not to think themselves as being a particular race, are you also going to tell black people to reject the “black” label? Go to the website of Obama’s home church then tell me how you think a world without racial identity will come about with the “Black Values System” they advocate. You’ll have to google it though, they’ve taken it off their front page buried it in the back somewhere.
The women’s movement learned this lesson the hard way. Women’s groups put aside their own needs, as women so often do, in order to support the abolition of slavery. But when it came time to try to get the vote for women, the black groups they had supported turned a deaf ear to women’s rights. Black men had the right to vote in 1865. Black women had the right to vote in 1920.
You might not think you are white, but what do black people think? Are you really naive enough to think they will not label YOU?
jclifford, you might also look up “prisoner’s dilemma”
So AT, what is it about this “special interest money” you don’t like?
Do you only not like the ones who contribute to Clinton, or do you also not like the $100 millions contributed by Oprah corporation, and the connections between
Walmart and Michelle Obama.
Or what about a candidate who lives in a mansion obtained from a developer who has been a major campaign fundraiser, who the candidate has written legislation for, and whose tenants have to go without heat in Chicago’s winter.
Do you only prefer the “pure” candidate who is independently wealthy?
Okay, Jim, here is the second part of the exercise. Now take your list of unfavorable epithets for men and women–which will probably include AT’s anatomical list–and give them a number rating for how negative or emotionally loaded they are. Compare your lists–how biting are the comments reserved for men compared to those for women? I suspect you will see a pattern, a pattern that unfortunately your daughter will also see one day.
Yeah, as a matter of fact, that’s exactly what I’m suggesting with this article – the concept of race doesn’t make sense for anybody, and if we all can abandon it, we will all be better off.
However, if people categorized as “black” give up their race consciousness without people like you giving up their “white” race hangups, then they will be in serious danger.
This requires everyone being courageous, instead of being defensive of their racial rights and critical of others’ racial wrongs, something that you’re demonstrating in strong form.
Giving up being “white” requires giving up the concept of others as different because of “blackness” or “brownness”. The opposite is true as well. Racialism is as repugnant to me as nationalism. We need to try to be human to each other instead of accepting race identity as a category that defines us…
…or do you want to keep on being lumped in with George W. Bush and Karl Rove into the “white vote” category?
To clarify, I’m not asking anyone to give up positive aspects of their culture – but culture should be regarded separately from issues of ancestral groups, as culture becomes twisted and oppressive when people are not free to change it or reject it as they individually see fit.
For me to identify myself as a member of Yankee culture, thus to enjoy tapping maple trees for syrup, for example, doesn’t have a damned thing to do with me supposedly being “white”.
Me being in some sort of political solidarity with a neoNazi in Arizona just because her ancestors also happened to come from Europe makes no sense.
Quite Frankly jclifford, I don’t see the problem you’re talking about. When you say there is an “element within the Democratic party that is desperately resisting a struggle against black/white labels”, where is it? I see two candidates and I see the white vote divided pretty evenly between them. I see the black vote overwhelmingly for the black candidate, and I see the male vote overwhelmingly for the male candidate.
And your solution is for everyone to vote for the black candidate? Because of race? To purge this racial consciousness from our midst?
No, if you’re on some sort of racial guilt trip you’re not going to drag me along with it.
Do you also see male/female labels?
How about this rewrite of your basic premise: “Male people won’t vote for Hillary Clinton? Yes we can… but can we stop calling ourselves male? Stop being male?”
“refrained” according to the Letter People:
Mr. R-rainbow ribbons
Ms. E-exercise energy
Ms. F-funny feet
Mr. R-rainbow ribbons
Ms. A-a’choo
Mr. I-impossible inches
Mr. N-noisy nose
Ms. E-exercise energy
Mr. D-dazzling dance
Let’s see, that’s five misters and four mizzes. No Jim, it doesn’t look like I hate you after all. I must hate….myself! Funny how misogyny can creep up without being noticed.
Iroquois, you see what you see because that’s what you’re determined to see.
If you considered the concept of race with an open mind, you would realize that your analogy to the physical dichotomy of male/female is a very poor analogy. Sadly, I can see that you’re not willing to consider the concept of race with an open mind.
The world is bigger than the expediency of the moment in the Obama vs. Hillary set of primaries, Iroquois.
Oh, so you can’t use the same arguments about gender as you do with race? And why, pray tell, not?
Oh no, jClifford. The analogy is apt, all right. It’s just too bad you can’t consider the concept of gender with an open mind.
Of course it doesn’t mix very well with your Obama Koolaid recipe.
IROQUOIS – bastard and bitch are equally negative in my mind – what is your point??
Can’t you get it into your head – if Clinton was a white man, I still wouldn’t vote for her. If she was a black man, I still wouldn’t vote for her. If she was a bi racial hermaphrodite – I still wouldn’t vote for her! You seem to represent a classic example of the victim mentality. For example, Ive known some feminists who outright reject any male support for their cause following the idea that no man could ever truly be on a woman’s side. Sound familiar Iroquois??
Also, I don’t defend Obama against anything. I plan to vote for him because even as flawed as he may turn out to be, he still isn’t Hillary Clinton, John McCain, or Mike Huckabee. It’s as simple as that, Iroquois.
No one here is denying that race and gender inequalities exist. Im sure there are plenty of men who wouldn’t vote for Clinton specifically because she’s a she. Those men are ignorant. They suck. But you seem to assume that ALL men fall into that category. You seem to think that everyone is as tuned into gender and race as you are. Some of us are beyond that. You could join us Iroquios, and demand freedom and justice for ALL – not just those you directly identify with.
Try doing the exercise with a group of people, AT. I suspect you are not being quite honest with yourself.
When I did the exercise with a class, there was an amazing amount of agreement about emotional values within the group–with the exception of one guy who didn’t say much but seemed sort of ticked off about something, but had on his list a lot of words like “cunt” that we had never heard used in conversation and didn’t quite know what they meant.
The group did agree that “bastard” was not a very strong insult, and could even be affectionate. The actual meaning is someone whose parents were not married, so everyone agreed this was not particularly a reflection on the individual, but on his mother (and not the father) for being sexually active.
Your explanation about why you wouldn’t vote for Hillary seems to have degenerated into a personal attack on me and some vaguely identified “feminist” persons you are ticked off at, and that no one can check up on what is was they really said. Instead of putting words in my mouth and claiming things I never said, why don’t you answer the question about your statement about corporate contributions to candidates.
I think you have noticed that Hillary hasn’t got a penis and that’s what you’re really ticked off about.
BTW, does anyone believe that AT really irons? Why is it that these guys who have so much to say about ironing haven’t heard of permanent press, or polyester blends, or even knits that don’t need ironing?
“Try doing the exercise with a group of people, AT. I suspect you are not being quite honest with yourself.”
How can I have any conversation with you when you doubt my honesty for having a different opionion then yours? So the logics goes “he doesn’t agree with me, therefore he must be lying.”
Then you assume I am angry. Where did you get that? Because I used two question marks? Im not mad at you or anyone. Maybe that’s a projection of your own anger?
Show me where I attacked you in any way. Some people feel as if anyone who disagrees with them is attacking them. It keeps you from actually taking a look at your own prejudice.
Oh and now I am lying about ironing? Geez, you don’t really want to share ideas do you?
Iroquois, I have an exercise for you.
I can readily name three strong women I admire:
Henrietta Leavitt – a woman who excelled in the male dominated field of astronomy and created standards for the measurement of interstellar distances.
Margaret Mead – an athropologist who advanced a more healthy attitude toward human sexuality.
Emily Saliers (of Indigo Girls)- an amazing singer and songwriter, who incidently once gave me a hug.
Can you name three strong men you admire?
Ok I amend that. Three modern men you admire. So can’t say Jesus, Abraham, etc.
I don’t like strong men, AT. I like soft, warm, articulate men who shower and use deodorant.
You keep changing the subject, AT. Are you smoking something?
I ask you again:
Exactly what is it about this “special interest money†of Hillary’s that makes you unwilling to vote for her?
Do you only not like the ones who contribute to Clinton, or do you also not like the $100 million contributed by the Oprah corporation, and the connections between Walmart and Michelle Obama.
What about a candidate who lives in a mansion obtained from a developer who has been a major campaign fundraiser, who the candidate has written legislation for, and whose tenants have to go without heat in Chicago’s winter.
I’m really trying to see how you’re supporting Obama for some reason other than a penis.
Of course, if you’re spending this much time on some blog, AT, you’re probably getting some hefty Ameros from somewhere to be Obama’s paid shill…
Find one place where I said anything good about Obama. I said I plan to vote for him. It’s called voting for the “lesser of two evils.” There are alot of people in this world that I would chose over Obama to be president, but you see I don’t get to pick who runs for the nomination. That makes me sound like an Obama shill? How is that?
As far as my dislike of Hillary Clinton is concerned, it has nothing to do with penis / no penis.
1. the whole Vince Foster suicide thing makes me wonder.
2. in a public forum, to me she comes off as phoney.
3. she takes ALOT of corporate money.
So now the tactic has shifted from “you don’t agree with me so you’re lying” to “you don’t agree with me so you must be on drugs”
Who is attacking whom?
Then you try to put me down by implying that I must not have anything important to do if I contribute to this blog.
Must I point out that your name is listed in Irregular Times pages many more times than mine – so what does that say about you?
I like Hillary Clinton too, Iroquois, but don’t have to be negative and disrespectful to those who don’t in order to make your point. In fact, it obscures your message and makes you look angry.
Since when is contributing to civic debate on public policy and democratic election regarded as a waste of time? Is that what Hillary Clinton supporters really think? Do they just want us to go home and let the Democratic Party insiders take care of everything for us?
Oh, so now we’re talking about “like” and “dislike”. Since when do you need to “like” a candidate? That’s how we got Bush, remember? Everyone thought he’s be great to have a beer with. I’d have to admit Obama is on my top ten list of people I’d like to have a beer with.
1. The Vince Foster suicide thing makes you wonder about WHAT? If she was having an affair? It wouldn’t surprise me in the least. After all, it was no secret Bubba was running all over the place with women and the Arkansas state police were busy protecting him and hiding his movements. Hillary had to have known. And she sure didn’t have anyone keeping her warm at night. At the same time, she was the only one bringing any real income into the family, as the position of governor only paid about ten thousand or so. She had to have been incredibly lonely in that governors’ mansion.
I hear a lot of guys voted for Bubba because they said “he’s having an affair just like I am”. Wouldn’t they just say the same about Hillary? “She had an affair just like me.” Of course we don’t know for sure. No one seemed to think the Monica thing made Bill a bad president, just a bad husband.
2. How does one “come off as phony?” Can you read people’s minds and tell whether they are thinking something besides what they are saying? All the candidates are heavily scripted. Hillary stays on message quite well and is also able to think on her feet with the cameras running and knowing millions of people are watching and judging, many of them more harshly than they would ever dream of judging a male candidate. If she comes off so poorly in public forums, why is Obama now refusing to debate her?
3. You still haven’t explained the corporate money thing. The last time I checked, Oprah is a corporation. Obama has also taken money from a real estate developer he later worked on legislation for. I don’t see a problem with taking money. Everybody has fundraisers. It’s taking money in exchange for something that smells bad to me. And Obama definitely carried water for the real estate developer/fundraiser after accepting the donations, not to mention that nice mansion he got at discount after the legislation was passed. That sure does smell like a quid pro quo.
It would be really easy for you just to say “no I do not receive any money from any political campaign”, but instead you shift and twist around, going on and on about “implying” and “attacking” and “tactics”, as if there is something you are trying to hide, if only you could type enough words.
Let me make this clear:
I do not recieve money from any campaign.
I do not endorse (or unendorse) any candidate. (Although I reserve the right to make occasional snarks about Ron Paul.)
I do not work for any political campaign, either paid or as a volunteer.
Now, AT, who DO you work for?
I am a self employed computer programmer if you really need to know. But will you actually believe me? You didn’t believe that I iron my wife’s shirts.
I don’t claim that Obama is better with respect to corporate donations. Find where I did.
I would have preferred John Edwards to Obama, but he left the race.
You sound like a broken record, with no point to make.
Why are you calling me “angry and disrespectful” Lynn? I don’t appreciate that sort of name calling. And what “point” do you think I’m trying to make?
Do you think it’s fair for someone to make all kinds of accusations about a female candidate taking money from corporations, and ignore the money a male candidate takes from corporations?
Is it just not “nice” or “ladylike” to keep asking AT why he would refuse to vote for a woman who takes contributions from corporations, but not from a male candidate who takes contributions from corporations? Well, excuse me all to pieces for asking hard, meaningful political questions instead of paying attention to who the next American Idol is going to be. I seem to have forgotten my dainty white gloves as well.
And no, I don’t believe AT irons. No one irons anymore.
I have only one point to debate with you, Iroqious. And that is your assertion that any man who decides not to vote for Hillary Clinton has made that choice on the basis of her gender. I don’t have to justify my reasons for not liking her. Whether my reasons are reasonable or not are surely up for debate. However, I will state one more time for the record that I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A WOMAN AS THIS COUNTRY’S PRESIDENT!!!!! I JUST DON’T SUPPORT THE ONE WOMAN YOU LIKE! You can blame my penis for this choice, but you’d be ignorant to do so. Until you cease your baseless assumtions about my life and accusations of me being either paid off or on drugs, I will no longer respond to your posts.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if Iroquois is really the paid Obama shill – trying to make Hillary supporters sound paranoid and inarticulate!
Isn’t it terribly ironic that so many people want to make me the issue and not address the questions that have been raised about the candidates?
I double dare ANYONE to respond to the issues:
What is the importance of “liking” a candidate?
What is the significance of corporate contributions? Are corporate contributions more of an issue for one candidate than the other and why?
What is the significance of Vince Foster? Does it matter if there is some question about whether a candidate might have had an affair that never became public?
Do any candidates look phony and what specifically it it about them that gives that impression? Is it the same thing as “liking” a candidate? Is it important in a presidential candidate?
I repeat what I said earlier–and what none of the other posters have said–I do not support any candidate and I do not work for any candidate, either paid or unpaid.
Interesting.
When Jclifford asks if the country is ready for a black president, everyone just sort of yawns.
When I ask if the nation is ready for a female president, all kinds of passive-aggressive stuff comes out of the woodwork.
Everything from sarcasm to condescension to crudeness to pretending they know who I’m going to vote for.
Here is the litany:
~turning this into a game
~get over this girls against boys mentality
~doesn’t make you look very smart or secure
~dear Iroquois
~OH (whine), all these ISSUES are making me tired
~Golly, when will this election thingy be over
~lets make a list of all the words we can think of for penis and vagina
~can’t formulate a reasonable response
~Can’t you get it into your head
~You seem to represent a classic example of the victim mentality.
~negative and disrespectful
~makes you look angry
~your assertion that any man who decides not to vote for Hillary Clinton has made that choice on the basis of her gender
~it obscures your message
~I like Hillary Clinton too
~no point to make
The “bitch factor” Irregular Times wrote about two years ago isn’t about Hillary Clinton at all. It’s about hating women.
I’ve made several attempts to discuss the issues, but no one wants to discuss issues. But they’re more than ready to bully and pile on. And what do they want to know about Hillary Clinton? Whether she is ambitious–but do they ask if male contenders are ambitious? What went on between Hillary Clinton and her former law partner–but do they ask about McCain’s publicly admitted infidelities?
No one is asking about the war. No one is asking about health care. No one is asking about the economy.
I think that pretty much answers my question about whether the country is ready for a female president. Those of you who have daughters can now go tell your girls that the only important thing about them is what’s between their legs. That’s what our culture says, and you all have made it so. I’m very glad I don’t have a daughter I have to explain this to.