Do you remember when you learned about the torture going on the American-run Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq? Do you remember what the Bush White House told you? They said that the crimes there were just the spontaneous mistakes of a “few bad apples”. They told you that nobody within the senior ranks of the military, and nobody in the White House, knew anything about it.
They lied.
Think back more recently, now. You remember that Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on torture I told you was coming up? Well, it was held yesterday morning, and boy did it let out a doozy of a revelation: The kind of cruel techniques of torture and humiliation that were used against non-terrorist, non-criminal Iraqis at Abu Ghraib were approved by the CIA, by the Department of Justice, and by the ultimate head of the U.S. military, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. The groundwork for the horrors of Abu Ghraib was put in place by the Bush White House.
If America was a healthy democracy, this news would be enough reason for a full-bore investigation by a prosecutorial team, resulting in a coalition of Democrats along with Republicans with a conscience to impeach the President and Vice President. America’s democracy isn’t what you’d call healthy, though. It hasn’t left the house for years, and just sits on the couch, eating Twinkies, watching TV.
Given America’s new combination of fear and laziness, the only culturally appropriate reaction is to put your finger on your chin, cock your head to the size, and say, “Yeah, yeah, whatever. Boring! Say, I wonder what’s really happening on Lost. Is it all, like, a dream?”
To those who say that what’s happened to prisoners of war at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and other prisons around the world isn’t real torture, I suggest that you ask yourself whether you would mind if the same techniques were used on captured American soldiers. Then consider the new evidence uncovered by Physicians for Human Rights. The Boston Globe reports on the new evidence, saying,
“One detainee who said he was repeatedly stabbed in the cheek with a screwdriver had wounds consistent with such treatment, the doctors reported. Another who said his captors sodomized him also had physical signs that supported the allegation, while several others had burns and psychological problems the doctors concluded were consistent with electrical shocks.”
Not real torture?
Yea…sure….George sat there and thougt up nasty stuff while watching SAW II….fortunately the News organizations are SMART ENOUGH to see stupid talk over reality….even the DEM congress can figure that one out…too bad progressives aren’t.
So, Sam, you’d like to see American soldiers subjected to this treatment?
Amazing how you can deny what this investigation has found. You say it’s just not true, not true, not true? Where’s your evidence that the Senate Armed Services Committee is wrong?
“So, Sam, you’d like to see American soldiers subjected to this treatment?”
Tell that to the dead US soldiers that were captured….pretty standard for the extremists…or sorry…insurgents…no wait…what do progressives call the bad guys?…oh yea…Republicans….
And as for the investigation…well…the Dems can cherry pick the findings and parade out who they find to suit their means…there are other investigations that have other findings…but you won’t see them.
How bout Haditha apologies prior to Abu Ghraib executions?
The military’s own report on Haditha clearly indicates wrongdoing. And the logic on the Haditha is not parallel. In the case of Haditha, there were (and are) military trials. In the case of torture, you’re arguing that people should not be put on trial. And in the case of detention, you’re arguing that people should not have the right of trial, or even of habeas corpus.
Sam’s logic is simply bizarre, complaining that the enemy is so evil because it has mistreated its prisoners, then arguing that we therefore should mistreat our prisoners.
We don not mistreat our prisoners….a few bad guards do. GET IT RIGHT….we as a people don’t do that. Now with that piece of trivia cleared up for you….when Bin Laden gets caught…you want him to have a trial in US courts? Forget it…he’ll be dead before he hits US shores….
No.
YOU get it right. For Pete’s sake.
Oh…quoting the Boston Globe…idispatch….BBC…The ACLU and yourselves…great resources….very straight forward….unbiased…..yea…..so if I were to use FOX news….The American Standard…The Wall Street Journal and say….me…..that wouldn’t count becuase…what? I was biased?
Wow, Sam. I also wish that I didn’t have to believe that the US policy has been to torture innocent people. Some of the evidence makes my eyes water, it is so bad. My reaction does not mean that it is not true, however. What would cause you to believe it happens–to be secretly rendered and be tortured yourself?
So bad by your standards….not mine….and that if I were out to destoy a nation and culture (like the Islamic Jihadists) then I would worry about it….but since I’m not….I don’t.
Okay Sam. It’s not bad? Let’s set up an appointment for me to waterboard you, if it’s not bad. When are you available?
Sure…let’s do it at Gitmo too…so that the other detainess can hear me scream…then they will spill all they know hoping that will not happen to them. Ask Sheik Humiani…he spilled all he knew in minutes…saved many many lives….well worth a moment of discomfort….
You think I’m joking, Sam, but I’m not. I want to make an actual appointment to waterboard you, so that we can see if it’s really not all that bad, as you say.
I’m not being rhetorical about this. We’ll videotape it for a special podcast, including your reaction afterwards.
So, where are you in the United States? Are you available this weekend?
You don’t have anything to hide, do you? You’re not afraid, are you?
Sure…we’ll show just how effective it is…with NO physical pain or injury…and then it will be widely accepted and used….come on down to the heart of Dixie…make sure you keep your VW micro bus home tho…it might not go over well here with us rednicks, ya know….we are somewhat backward….
If you think what the U.S. is doing at Guantanamo is no big deal, endure it all yourself–go for the whole package, not just waterboarding “with NO physical pain or injury.”
That means you put up with everything the prisoners at Guantanamo put up with:
Loss of all your rights under U.S. laws and international treaties
Slapping
Pushing
“Stress Positions”
Sexual Humiliation
Psychological Manipulation
Sleep Deprivation
Plausible Threat of Imminent Death
The only way for you to plausibly believe Peregrin Wood is threatening you with imminent death would be for you to provide a signed, written statement absolving him of all responsibility should you happen to die.
Even if you could hold it together for two minutes of waterboarding under all those circumstances and come out saying it’s “not too bad,” that would hardly measure up to the six years the prisoners at Guantanamo have endured.
There’s no way either you or Peregrin are going to go to the lengths it would take to simulate the experience of a prisoner at Guantanamo in any reasonable way.
And the very fact that you’ll consent to be waterboarded “with NO physical pain” proves you don’t understand what waterboarding is. Waterboarding is not “simulated” drowning, it’s actual drowning–stopped just before the prisoner drowns to death.
You’re willing to drown nearly to death just as long as there’s NO pain? Get a clue!
That means you put up with everything the prisoners at Guantanamo put up with:
Loss of all your rights under U.S. laws and international treaties
Slapping
Pushing
“Stress Positions”
Sexual Humiliation
Psychological Manipulation
Sleep Deprivation
Plausible Threat of Imminent Death
Ever take a tour of a US Federal prison? Maybe you should watch National Geographic during the weekend when they have prison show marathons….those at Gitmo have it good….
And No…waterboarding is not drowning…it simulates….drowning is when your lungs fill with water…lungs don’t fill when your upsidedown…oh…wait you do know how it’s done….so you would know that…..like I said…whatever it takes….
No, no, sam. You don’t understand. I’m serious.
Where do you want to meet so that I can waterboard you? You say it’s no big deal, so you shouldn’t mind it.
Tell you what. I’ll even give you a hundred dollar bill for your time. I’ll travel to you, so that you don’t need to spend money on gasoline.
So, you have no excuse not to show up now. So, tell me where I can meet you so that I can waterboard you this weekend…
…unless you’re afraid that it’s going to hurt… which is what torture does.
You’re not afraid of a little waterboarding, are you, Sam? Come on now. Tell me where to meet you and when. I’ll bring the equipment.
Well, look who’s suddenly Mr. Dictionary.
Using water to cause someone to be unable to breathe is not “drowning?” What would you prefer to call it, “water-induced asphyxia?”
Bottom line: It hurts when you’re prevented from breathing, Einstein. You don’t get waterboarded with “NO pain.”
If all those things are done to prisoners by their captors in federal prisons, it is criminal. If they are done to prisoners by other prisoners, it is gross negligence. Either way, the poor conditions in federal prisons provide neither legal nor ethical justification for the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo.
One very significant difference between federal prison and Guantanamo: Every single prisoner in U.S. federal prison is there because he or she was convicted by a jury of his or her peers. Not a single prisoner in Guantanamo is there as the result of a jury trial.