Comments on: Christianity Linked With Child Death http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/ When old landmarks crumble, established roads no longer lead the way. New paths open to those with an irregular eye. Our news is unfit for print. Sat, 26 May 2012 23:08:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: RRD http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/comment-page-1/#comment-532433 RRD Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:49:55 +0000 http://irregulartimes.com/?p=11537#comment-532433 As I stated in a previous post (under the wealth article), I am no supporter of the prosperity movement either - my problem is with poor logic. Regardless of godly intervention, the rates of death, obesity, prosperity etc for a given state may demonstrate nothing about its Christian population. Even if a majority are Christian (or whatever) the state numbers may be skewed by behavior or characteristics of the minority if they are sufficiently common. In the states with better numbers, it could be behavior or charateristics of their Christian population that improves the numbers. In the absence of more data, your premise is without foundation. Put another way, it could be that God is providing more wealth (however defined)to Christians and it is extremely bad numbers on the part of all others that bring the overall numbers down Similarly, the differences in state wealth, infant mortality, etc are as likely to be influenced by other factors (average age of population, ethnicity, etc) If enough young people move from state A to state B to lower the average age, you are likely to see a decline in median income. Nonetheless, it is possible that the Christians - regardless of age - are earning more than their peers. Again, the data you use to try to make your case is insufficiently specific to be valid. This is basically a deductive fallacy As I stated in a previous post (under the wealth article), I am no supporter of the prosperity movement either – my problem is with poor logic. Regardless of godly intervention, the rates of death, obesity, prosperity etc for a given state may demonstrate nothing about its Christian population. Even if a majority are Christian (or whatever) the state numbers may be skewed by behavior or characteristics of the minority if they are sufficiently common. In the states with better numbers, it could be behavior or charateristics of their Christian population that improves the numbers. In the absence of more data, your premise is without foundation. Put another way, it could be that God is providing more wealth (however defined)to Christians and it is extremely bad numbers on the part of all others that bring the overall numbers down

Similarly, the differences in state wealth, infant mortality, etc are as likely to be influenced by other factors (average age of population, ethnicity, etc) If enough young people move from state A to state B to lower the average age, you are likely to see a decline in median income. Nonetheless, it is possible that the Christians – regardless of age – are earning more than their peers. Again, the data you use to try to make your case is insufficiently specific to be valid.

This is basically a deductive fallacy

]]> By: Jacob http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/comment-page-1/#comment-532394 Jacob Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:57:13 +0000 http://irregulartimes.com/?p=11537#comment-532394 The Prosperity Gospel being wrong has nothing to do with God being week. Its the simple fact that the Prosperity Gospel is no gospel at all with no Scriptural correlation... The Prosperity Gospel being wrong has nothing to do with God being week. Its the simple fact that the Prosperity Gospel is no gospel at all with no Scriptural correlation…

]]> By: Truman http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/comment-page-1/#comment-532380 Truman Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:16:22 +0000 http://irregulartimes.com/?p=11537#comment-532380 Read the article. I never claimed causation. I didn't say that the Christianity <i>caused</i> child death. However, I did claim that the Prosperity Gospel hypothesis was not supported by these numbers. In order to claim that Christianity is truly linked with prosperity, you have to come up with a pretty wild and wacky series of justifications. And remember this - this isn't some ordinary kind of causation we're talking about here. We're talking about a Christian belief in a form of supernatural causation, in which all the known laws of the universe are broken by a great big spirit in order to give Christians more wealth, health and social satisfaction than everyone else. Given that's the nature of the Prosperity Gospel hypothesis, I don't think that it deserves the benefit of the doubt. Besides that, we're talking about a personal, all-powerful God. Do you really think that if there were such a being, and that being wanted to reward Christians and punish non-Christians, we'd see something other than these numbers? Do you really think we'd see such a weak trend of reward and punishment that it could be covered up by "variations in the population from state to state (age, ethnicity, etc.)? The supposed omnipotence of the source of causation being claimed completely changes the appropriate statistical standards, I think... ...unless you're claiming that God is weak, which negates the Prosperity Gospel hypothesis as well. Read the article. I never claimed causation. I didn’t say that the Christianity caused child death. However, I did claim that the Prosperity Gospel hypothesis was not supported by these numbers. In order to claim that Christianity is truly linked with prosperity, you have to come up with a pretty wild and wacky series of justifications.

And remember this – this isn’t some ordinary kind of causation we’re talking about here. We’re talking about a Christian belief in a form of supernatural causation, in which all the known laws of the universe are broken by a great big spirit in order to give Christians more wealth, health and social satisfaction than everyone else. Given that’s the nature of the Prosperity Gospel hypothesis, I don’t think that it deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Besides that, we’re talking about a personal, all-powerful God. Do you really think that if there were such a being, and that being wanted to reward Christians and punish non-Christians, we’d see something other than these numbers? Do you really think we’d see such a weak trend of reward and punishment that it could be covered up by “variations in the population from state to state (age, ethnicity, etc.)?

The supposed omnipotence of the source of causation being claimed completely changes the appropriate statistical standards, I think…

…unless you’re claiming that God is weak, which negates the Prosperity Gospel hypothesis as well.

]]> By: RRD http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/comment-page-1/#comment-532339 RRD Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:02:21 +0000 http://irregulartimes.com/?p=11537#comment-532339 Lies, damned lies, and statistics redux - again (as with your original statistical post) poor critical thinking. Using statewide statistics about obesity/death rates/etc in perspective of rates of reported Christian belief does not hold up to scrutiny. First, you would have to demonstrate that it is the Christian population that skews the rate, rather than some aspect of the sizable non-christian population. Then you would have to balance the statistics to account for variations in the population from state to state (age, ethnicity, etc). You would benefit from memorizing one basic rule - correlation does not equal causation. Lies, damned lies, and statistics redux – again (as with your original statistical post) poor critical thinking. Using statewide statistics about obesity/death rates/etc in perspective of rates of reported Christian belief does not hold up to scrutiny. First, you would have to demonstrate that it is the Christian population that skews the rate, rather than some aspect of the sizable non-christian population. Then you would have to balance the statistics to account for variations in the population from state to state (age, ethnicity, etc).

You would benefit from memorizing one basic rule – correlation does not equal causation.

]]> By: Jim http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/comment-page-1/#comment-529105 Jim Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:32:41 +0000 http://irregulartimes.com/?p=11537#comment-529105 Try reading scholarship on the book of Daniel for one example: here's <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/503516/OT3-Daniel-Date-Historicity" rel="nofollow">an outlined synopsis</a> of some evidence disputing Daniel's historicity. Try reading scholarship on the book of Daniel for one example: here’s an outlined synopsis of some evidence disputing Daniel’s historicity.

]]> By: Jacob http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/comment-page-1/#comment-529083 Jacob Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:08:30 +0000 http://irregulartimes.com/?p=11537#comment-529083 Jim, Im not sure where you are pulling your info fro. this argument would have worked brfore 1947, but now there has been found 95% of the Old Testament from pre 47 ad. Once again this was in the time of the people had seen Jesus dead and who would have a lot to gain from saying wait a second. I think my Bible changed... I enjoy you jumping into the debate, but please bring facts... Jim,

Im not sure where you are pulling your info fro. this argument would have worked brfore 1947, but now there has been found 95% of the Old Testament from pre 47 ad. Once again this was in the time of the people had seen Jesus dead and who would have a lot to gain from saying wait a second. I think my Bible changed…

I enjoy you jumping into the debate, but please bring facts…

]]> By: Jim http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/comment-page-1/#comment-529080 Jim Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:51:07 +0000 http://irregulartimes.com/?p=11537#comment-529080 By the way, such prophetic statements in the Old Testament that - miracle! - turn out to be historically correct... well, there's historical evidence that they were written after the events they predict. That's a great way to get an awesome prophesy. By the way, such prophetic statements in the Old Testament that – miracle! – turn out to be historically correct… well, there’s historical evidence that they were written after the events they predict. That’s a great way to get an awesome prophesy.

]]> By: Jacob http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/comment-page-1/#comment-529076 Jacob Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:32:30 +0000 http://irregulartimes.com/?p=11537#comment-529076 O, and about the vague list. Even a vague list points us in the right direction when put together. I can give you vague directions. Turn left at the red mailbox. Go 5 miles. Go down Oak street etc I never have to say the word WalMart but if you follow the directions you still get there. O, and about the vague list. Even a vague list points us in the right direction when put together. I can give you vague directions. Turn left at the red mailbox. Go 5 miles. Go down Oak street etc

I never have to say the word WalMart but if you follow the directions you still get there.

]]> By: Jacob http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/comment-page-1/#comment-529075 Jacob Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:30:06 +0000 http://irregulartimes.com/?p=11537#comment-529075 "and there’s no historical evidence that Jesus even ever really lived." This claim came during the life time of the people walked and talked with Jeus. If he never lived, where is the texts of the people saying "who, we didnt crucify any man named Jesus" None of the words in your Bible are found in the orginal text. It is written in Hebrew and Greek. Yeshua can be found in the Hebrew text which is translated into English as Jesus. I have to agree with you, if you cant read Hebrew or Greek you are at a disadvantage. I dont know why they translated the exact same word differently in the OT and the NT. I have theorys on that but you have clearly stated that you dont want my theories on things... “and there’s no historical evidence that Jesus even ever really lived.” This claim came during the life time of the people walked and talked with Jeus. If he never lived, where is the texts of the people saying “who, we didnt crucify any man named Jesus”

None of the words in your Bible are found in the orginal text. It is written in Hebrew and Greek.

Yeshua can be found in the Hebrew text which is translated into English as Jesus. I have to agree with you, if you cant read Hebrew or Greek you are at a disadvantage. I dont know why they translated the exact same word differently in the OT and the NT. I have theorys on that but you have clearly stated that you dont want my theories on things…

]]> By: Truman http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2009/04/04/christianity-linked-with-child-death/comment-page-1/#comment-529073 Truman Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:17:09 +0000 http://irregulartimes.com/?p=11537#comment-529073 No, no, no. These verses do not talk about "Jesus". They give vague statements and never say "Jesus". Let's look at your first example, Micah 5:2 <i>But thou, Bethlehem Eph'ratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.</i> Where is the word "Jesus" in this? You're counting on similarities in descriptions of Jesus when compared to Old Testament prophecies that don't mention Jesus at all. Has it not occurred to you that the New Testament was written <i>after</i> the Old Testament, in order to legitimize theological claims that Christianity was a legitimate outgrowth of previous texts? Those Gospels weren't written for decades after the supposed time of Jesus's death - and there's no historical evidence that Jesus even ever really lived. I'm asking for an Old Testament text that says "Jesus". J-E-S-U-S. Not some reinterpretation of a prophecy that the Gospels then cited. I've given you texts in which the Bible very directly promises prosperity. Now you're providing nothing to back your statements up, except for retroactive prophecy. Come on. I'm No, no, no. These verses do not talk about “Jesus”. They give vague statements and never say “Jesus”. Let’s look at your first example, Micah 5:2

But thou, Bethlehem Eph’ratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Where is the word “Jesus” in this?

You’re counting on similarities in descriptions of Jesus when compared to Old Testament prophecies that don’t mention Jesus at all. Has it not occurred to you that the New Testament was written after the Old Testament, in order to legitimize theological claims that Christianity was a legitimate outgrowth of previous texts? Those Gospels weren’t written for decades after the supposed time of Jesus’s death – and there’s no historical evidence that Jesus even ever really lived.

I’m asking for an Old Testament text that says “Jesus”. J-E-S-U-S. Not some reinterpretation of a prophecy that the Gospels then cited.

I’ve given you texts in which the Bible very directly promises prosperity. Now you’re providing nothing to back your statements up, except for retroactive prophecy. Come on.

I’m

]]>